What should I lease? (Long)

[Mitsu3000gt]

I drive a lot more now and the time has come for me to get a new car. I think I want to lease this time around. The $299/mo Cadillac ATS lease deal would have been the biggest no-brainer, but sadly it is no longer available and may never come back.

Requirements:
Approx. $400/mo, really trying to stick to that, lower the better
Turbo 4cyl or V6 (I want easily accessible torque)
Sedan or hatch, small to midsize - prefer hatch. Would entertain small sporty SUV.
4 doors
Practical
Reasonably fun

Preferences:
Above average/good stereo
AWD
Strong preference for DCT or really good automatic
Android Auto
Blind spot monitoring / various collision avoidance technologies

This is what I'm looking at, all prices are rough and before negotiations

2017 Mercedes B250 4Matic premium pkg (Front runner) ($38-41K or so, $440-450/mo)
+ 2.0T, DCT, AWD trifecta that is so very rare
+ Great interior
+ Has all the options I want except perhaps a good stereo
+ $3570 incentive & 0.9% lease

- Most expensive, pushing my budget to the max
- Looks are not my favorite (mini minivan)
- Leasing is monthly only, no bi-weekly payments which adds ~$50/mo to the payment unnecessarily
- Apparently getting overhauled in MY2018 or MY2019


2017 Honda Civic Touring (Sedan) or Sport Touring (Hatchback) (~$31K, ~$400/mo)
+ 1.5T makes a lot more power than advertised and should be enough for my purposes
+ Very well optioned, good stereo, android auto, heated front & rear seats, rain sensing wipers, the whole 9 yards
+ Cheaper to lease/maintain
+ New model
+ Probably the most sensible option

- CVT is the only option if I don't want to drive another manual and I don't prefer CVTs. No manual option on the sedan in Touring trim.
- Completely unrealistic artificially low residuals (~$12K after 4 years) force the payments much higher than expected
- No cashback or lease rate promotions
- FWD
- "Sport" models look too riced out with excessive plastic body cladding
- The Civic Si might be an easy choice but it isn't available and there is no word when it's coming

2017 Acura TLX V6 SH-AWD (~$45K or $436/mo lease)
+ Lots of car for the leasing money
+ $3500 incentive
+ Probably has the best "base" stereo
+ Fantastic AWD system

- No android/apple auto available at all on any models (only the NSX has it lol)
- "Base" model, has no tech options or monitoring tech
- Apparently getting overhauled for MY2018
- Fuel economy


Other things I've looked at to lease - a lot of them creep into my price range until you add the necessary options, then they are too much:

GTI / Golf R - Too expensive, pricing too close to the R as soon as you add any options
Golf - Bad transmission options (5MT or poorly reviewed traditional automatic), 1.8T low-ish on power
Most american cars - Too expensive due to garbage residuals
Hyundai Elantra GT - Too expensive due to garbage residual
Infiniti QX30 - $5000 for basic option package makes it too expensive
Mercedes GLA/CLA - Too Expensive
Mercedes C300 w/$4400 incentive - Still too expensive
WRX - Possible, but would have to live with the manual. CVT in that car is unattractive (drone). Power delivery not as good for easy city driving.
Volvo - nothing in my price range
Acura ILX - By far the cheapest to lease ($350/mo well equipped) but too boring I think. Very sensible car though, and has an 8speed DCT ( who knew?) Will be better when it gets the turbo updates and the new Civic platform.

Still need to look into:
BMW X1 - probably too expensive
BMW 228 - probably too expensive


Thoughts? Opinions? Am I way out to lunch on anything? Anything I should look at that I haven't? Any salespeople want to give me a wicked deal? TIA

[Hallowed_point]

Acura TSX V6 SH-AWD is a killer choice. A bit overpriced imo. But I'd pick that for your criteria.

[Tej.S]

I thought the BMW's would have lower monthly payments as they tend to inflate their residuals.. Worth looking into at least.

[flipstah]

Mazda3 Sport GT?

It's pretty nice inside and out, and has pep.

[R154]

Wolfsburg edition Tiguan is under 400 a month and has everything you asked. Iffy about the transmission though.

[max_boost]

So many choices out there :nut:

I think the WRX fits the bill for me if it can be done for $400

[spikerS]

Originally posted by max_boost


I think the WRX fits the bill for me if it can be done for $400

Probably with a sizable down payment.

*EDIT* Base model WRX, 20,000km/year, $1500 down is $392.74 a month plus taxes and fees

[ExtraSlow]

As long as you set aside some money to straight pipe it. Love that boxer sound without a muffler.

[dirtsniffer]

i checked out a mini clubman awd but the lease payments were surprisingly high

[max_boost]

Honestly I'd probably take any BMW/Benz/Lexus etc. if I can get into it for $400/month zero down. Budget balling FTW :rofl: :bigpimp:

[Neil4Speed]

Originally posted by Mitsu3000gt

2017 Acura TLX V6 SH-AWD (~$45K or $436/mo lease)
+ Lots of car for the leasing money
+ $3500 incentive
+ Probably has the best "base" stereo
+ Fantastic AWD system

- No android/apple auto available at all on any models (only the NSX has it lol)
- "Base" model, has no tech options or monitoring tech
- Apparently getting overhauled for MY2018
- Fuel economy


Mitsu, one day I will do a full review on the 2015 that I have, but on your points

Overall the car is pretty good, and very good value for the price. Its very quiet and refined. The Audio system sounds decent enough, but is infuriatingly slow to use - this is my biggest complaint, its on par with Idrive from 2008. They may have improved this since.

The AWD system is great, very quick to react and the "SH-" really does seem true, the car is quite agile (with the limit point being the garbage Goodyear tires).

Fuel Economy is actually a plus, its incredible on the highway (6.5L/100km), and definitely good enough in the city (~9.5-10). I run regular in mine.

My lease (including tax) is $366, so there is a definite variance there.

Some people don't like the transmission, I find it to be quite good in sport mode - responsive and fun. Sport + is too aggressive.

Did you look at the Lexus IS and the Infinity Q50?

[88CRX]

Originally posted by Mitsu3000gt

2017 Acura TLX V6 SH-AWD (~$45K or $436/mo lease)
+ Lots of car for the leasing money
+ $3500 incentive
+ Probably has the best "base" stereo
+ Fantastic AWD system

- No android/apple auto available at all on any models (only the NSX has it lol)
- "Base" model, has no tech options or monitoring tech
- Apparently getting overhauled for MY2018
- Fuel economy


I lucked out last year when Acura was giving away AWD TLX's and am current leased for 4 years at $365+tax/month at 0%.

2018 it getting a refresh (like you said) should look something like this:
http://autoguide.com.vsassets.com/blog/wp-content/gallery/2018-acura-tlx-spy-photos-january-25-2017/2018-acura-tlx-spy-photos-09.jpg

Haven't done much research but I'm assuming they'll finally fix the shitty transmission. Gas mileage isn't terrible, I'll check what I'm averaging later tonight.

Mine is a base AWD (not Tech) and the only thing I missed was a car starter which I've since added. Also heated steering wheel would have been nice but stereo is sufficient and don't really need any of the tech upgrades.

Edit: haha what Niel said!

[Mitsu3000gt]

Originally posted by Hallowed_point
Acura TSX V6 SH-AWD is a killer choice. A bit overpriced imo. But I'd pick that for your criteria.

The incentive helps a bit. Yes they are expensive, but have very strong residuals which means the lease payment isn't too crazy. The problem with this one (as with most of the entry level German cars) is I don't want the base model, and as soon as you add simple options you have added $5K and they payment is $500+/mo. It's a frustrating realization haha. I keep thinking "ooo I can get into X car"...then I add AWD and a basic option package and it's way too expensive.


Originally posted by Tej.S
I thought the BMW's would have lower monthly payments as they tend to inflate their residuals.. Worth looking into at least.

Will look into more. I think the option packages are going to kill it though. The entry level pricing on the German cars gets you almost nothing in terms of connectivity and technology.


Originally posted by flipstah
Mazda3 Sport GT?

It's pretty nice inside and out, and has pep.

N/A 4-cyl is out of the question - I want a torquey motor for zipping around in the city, and something that can easily pass on the highway. I've also heard so many horror stories about every Mazda dealer in the city that I am scared to have any commitment with them.


Originally posted by spikerS


Probably with a sizable down payment.

*EDIT* Base model WRX, 20,000km/year, $1500 down is $392.74 a month plus taxes and fees

WRX would be fun but the CVT is a deal-breaker on that car, and the manual + 4000rpm torque peak is just not really my driving style. I plan on test driving one again though to confirm my suspicions. It also falls into the same trap as so many other cars - starts at $29,900, adding necessary options & freight brings you to $38K.


Originally posted by max_boost
Honestly I'd probably take any BMW/Benz/Lexus etc. if I can get into it for $400/month zero down. Budget balling FTW :rofl: :bigpimp:

A base model Lexus NX I think squeaks into the $400 range but again the problem is they strip it of all options, so when you get what you want it's too expensive. I really like the NX a lot actually, but too much money.



Originally posted by Neil4Speed


Mitsu, one day I will do a full review on the 2015 that I have, but on your points

Overall the car is pretty good, and very good value for the price. Its very quiet and refined. The Audio system sounds decent enough, but is infuriatingly slow to use - this is my biggest complaint, its on par with Idrive from 2008. They may have improved this since.

The AWD system is great, very quick to react and the "SH-" really does seem true, the car is quite agile (with the limit point being the garbage Goodyear tires).

Fuel Economy is actually a plus, its incredible on the highway (6.5L/100km), and definitely good enough in the city (~9.5-10). I run regular in mine.

My lease (including tax) is $366, so there is a definite variance there.

Some people don't like the transmission, I find it to be quite good in sport mode - responsive and fun. Sport + is too aggressive.

Did you look at the Lexus IS and the Infinity Q50?

Thanks - do you have the 9spd auto or was that introduced after? That is the only transmission option on the 2017's. $366 would probably be a no-brainer decision for me (or I could add more options and do $400) but they don't seem to be that cheap at the moment. Even after $3500 incentive, I get $436/mo all-in for a 2017 V6 SH AWD with zero options. The "Tech" is coming up on $500. All 4-year leases with low km.

The Lexus IS starts at over $40,000 with no options, which is too expensive unfortunately. The base model doesn't even have heated seats, and after $1000 incentive is still $460/mo (bi weekly calc). Technically doable but I would rather have a different car with all the options I think.

Q50 2.0t isn't even on the Infiniti website for build & price for some reason unless I'm missing something. I thought I looked at it though and as soon as you add AWD and basic options you are well into the $40K bracket. They have a promo on the 3.0T for $448/mo but you have to put $2800 down. I'm not opposed to putting a tiny bit down if it helps a lot, but my understanding of leasing has always been that you can't afford it if you have to put money down. They do the QX30 for $398/mo as well but it requires a $3600 down payment.


Originally posted by 88CRX


I lucked out last year when Acura was giving away AWD TLX's and am current leased for 4 years at $365+tax/month at 0%.

2018 it getting a refresh (like you said) should look something like this:
http://autoguide.com.vsassets.com/blog/wp-content/gallery/2018-acura-tlx-spy-photos-january-25-2017/2018-acura-tlx-spy-photos-09.jpg

Haven't done much research but I'm assuming they'll finally fix the shitty transmission. Gas mileage isn't terrible, I'll check what I'm averaging later tonight.

Mine is a base AWD (not Tech) and the only thing I missed was a car starter which I've since added. Also heated steering wheel would have been nice but stereo is sufficient and don't really need any of the tech upgrades.

Edit: haha what Niel said!

Damn for $365/mo I'd be all over that (or a bit more for the tech). Do you remember what month they had that in?

Also is the current 9spd the same one everyone is complaining about? One thing I can't stand is a transmission with too many gears and shitty programming - had a couple rentals with them now (Jeep Cherokee) and it ruined the entire vehicle.

[Aleks]

How are you getting these estimates? Is it from Manufacturers websites?

I'm willing to bet if you got dealer quotes on that B250 4matic and a loaded GTI (non PP) they would either be the same or GTI would be less.

But if you like MB, this is a really good price:

http://www.kijiji.ca/v-cars-trucks/calgary/2014-mercedes-benz-other-cla45-amg-sedan/1211550203

[Aleks]

Originally posted by ExtraSlow
As long as you set aside some money to straight pipe it. Love that boxer sound without a muffler.

He would need to go for the STI for that. New WRX has an equal length header setup, so no more rumble.

[Mitsu3000gt]

Originally posted by Aleks
How are you getting these estimates? Is it from Manufacturers websites?

I'm willing to bet if you got dealer quotes on that B250 4matic and a loaded GTI (non PP) they would either be the same or GTI would be less.

Strictly websites, yes. The only dealer I have been to so far before this week's snow hit is Mercedes, so I can't test drive anything until next week. The prices do not include negotiations, but *most* manufacturers at least have their promotions on their website for me to take into account.

A loaded GTI (non performance) payment is $522/mo and the fine print suggests that still doesn't include GST or dealer fees (like freight?).

My other problem with the GTI is psychological. A loaded GTI is less than ~$2K from a (base) Golf R, which is twice the car of a GTI as far as I'm concerned. Lease payments on a base "R" are $567/mo which I can't afford, so the whole scenario makes me mad :rofl:

The other thing that makes this all more difficult is telling a dealer upfront that I want to lease likely makes it harder to get a good deal. Giving them a payment and letting them fill in the black box is not what I like. I'd rather come to them knowing the vehicle cost, less incentives, give them $500 or 3% or whatever (or less if they are making the sale for volume kickbacks from the manufacturer), and have a good idea of the range they should be offering me. I am not used to shopping via payment, so I feel like my guard is up more than usual.

[Aleks]

Originally posted by Mitsu3000gt


Strictly websites, yes. The only dealer I have been to so far before this week's snow hit is Mercedes, so I can't test drive anything until next week. The prices do not include negotiations, but *most* manufacturers at least have their promotions on their website for me to take into account.

A loaded GTI (non performance) payment is $522/mo and the fine print suggests that still doesn't include GST or dealer fees (like freight?).

My other problem with the GTI is psychological. A loaded GTI is less than ~$2K from a (base) Golf R, which is twice the car of a GTI as far as I'm concerned. Lease payments on a base "R" are $567/mo which I can't afford, so the whole scenario makes me mad :rofl:

The other thing that makes this all more difficult is telling a dealer upfront that I want to lease likely makes it harder to get a good deal. Giving them a payment and letting them fill in the black box is not what I like. I'd rather come to them knowing the vehicle cost, less incentives, give them $500 or 3% or whatever (or less if they are making the sale for volume kickbacks from the manufacturer), and have a good idea of the range they should be offering me. I am not used to shopping via payment, so I feel like my guard is up more than usual.

As always, PM Ryan and see what he can get you on any VW. You might be surprised on the GTI. Some websites are better than others. They can have big swings in what's online and what they want you to pay once you start negotiating (doc fees, finance acquisitions etc).

[Mitsu3000gt]

Originally posted by Aleks


As always, PM Ryan and see what he can get you on any VW. You might be surprised on the GTI. Some websites are better than others. They can have big swings in what's online and what they want you to pay once you start negotiating (doc fees, finance acquisitions etc).

Certainly worth a look - never hurts. I will at least entertain pretty much anything, especially with a lease where I am far less picky about brand, reliability, etc. I just want the most car for the dollar, and I'd be thrilled to get a special deal like the $365 TLX, $299 ATS, etc.

I gave Ryan my contact info on Jan 17, he said he would send me some options but never did so I don't know what's going on there haha :dunno: His PM box is full now though so maybe he's just really busy. People seem to really like him so I'm happy to give him the benefit of the doubt.

[gpomp]

My GTI costs me $360/month :dunno:

[riander5]

Originally posted by max_boost
Honestly I'd probably take any BMW/Benz/Lexus etc. if I can get into it for $400/month zero down. Budget balling FTW :rofl: :bigpimp:

Im 100$ off your budget baller - Paying just over 500 and took over some dudes 3000 down on my 2016 :D

I was looking for a TLX for comparison but people were paying 600 a month for em! Plus they wouldnt add any cash on. Bastards!

My is250 is so gutless though and doesnt get stellar fuel economy :( ... But fuck its nice inside!! Handles well too!

[dj_rice]

I'm new to this lease vs finance vs buy car game.


Looking to pick up a new 17 Q50 3.0T. Originally I was planning on buying it outright, but then others suggested lease vs finance.

Which route is better? Is $600/month lease too expensive? I like to keep my cars long term so better to finance then? But then others are telling me to lease it and buy it out at end? Residual?


Is there a Lease Vs Finance For Dummies Guide?

[Mitsu3000gt]

Originally posted by dj_rice
I'm new to this lease vs finance vs buy car game.


Looking to pick up a new 17 Q50 3.0T. Originally I was planning on buying it outright, but then others suggested lease vs finance.

Which route is better? Is $600/month lease too expensive? I like to keep my cars long term so better to finance then? But then others are telling me to lease it and buy it out at end? Residual?


Is there a Lease Vs Finance For Dummies Guide?

Here's my take on it:

Lease positives, as best as I understand it:

- Don't need to take care of the car beyond mandatory maintenance
- "Pride of ownership" effort such as detailing, waxing, 3M, etc. is totally optional and does not affect the buyback. Take it though the touch car washes and use the brush on it at coin washes without worrying about swirls.
- Rock chips and door dings are considered normal wear and tear within reason, go ahead and squeeze into any parking spot you want
- You don't have to take care of it in the winter (block heaters, cold starts, driving easy, etc.)
- Severe damage like hail, collisions, etc. do not affect your buy-back agreement (this is actually amazing peace of mind) even though it would completely destroy the resale value if you owned it
- Drive it however you want, as hard as you want (without massively damaging anything of course)
- Guaranteed to always have warranty
- You only pay GST on the payment, not the entire sale price
- Option to buy out at the end if you think you can get significantly more on the used market than your residual
- Always have a new car to look forward to every 4 years or whatever your term
- The above is why I would never and have never bought a vehicle that was a lease-return

Lease Negatives:

- You ALWAYS have a car payment as you are simply paying the vehicle depretiation based on a predetermined residual value after X years (but if you get a new car every 4-5 years, you always have a payment if you finance too)
- You don't own anything at the end
- The residuals are almost always artificially low to force a higher lease payment (based on everything I've been looking at so far anyway).
- Limited KM (but you would pick something that worked for you I'd assume)
- Can be harder to get out of

Finance Positives:

- You own it when you're done
- Pride of ownership applies
- Cheaper in the long run if you keep your cars for a super long time like 5+ years
- No KM limit, but directly affects resale
- ???

Finance Negatives

- Severe damage like hail or collisions decimate their resale value
- Every little bit of damage and wear & tear is your problem
- Far more time, effort, and money required to keep it's resale value as high as possible
- Limited warranty period
- Monthly payment is almost always higher unless you get a ridiculous term like 84 months 0%

As for the payment, it's all just math. Lease is car cost minus predetermined residual divided into payments over the lease term and they may or may not have interest. Financing is just the sale price divided by the payment months and may have interest. With leasing, you can get some surprisingly nice cars for the same payment as a worse car just because it holds it's value better and the residual is strong. It's all just a game, but it's easy to back into the numbers.

If all you care about is payment, it's just a simple calculation comparison. Financed amount divided by months + interest OR Purchase price less residual divided by months + interest.

That's my take on it, unless I have misunderstood something along the way haha (anyone please feel free to correct me). Leasing appears to be the dream - the more I think about it the more I think it is by far the best option with some pretty significant safeguards built in.

Fine print on lease deals almost always includes a hefty down payment, so be wary of those. A good piece of advice seems to be that if you have to put much money down on a lease, it means you can't afford it. Also if you pay by-weekly it reduces the payment significantly but some dealers (like Mercedes) won't let you do that.

Looking at your Q50 3.0T, just picked an entry model:

48 mo Lease: $601/mo, 16,000 KM allowance, give it back after 4 years
48 mo Finance: $1094/mo
84 mo Finance: $689/mo

Your gamble is if you think you can sell it for a lot more than the predetermined lease residual when you're done. If you keep the car for a super long time like 10 years, you're best off buying it outright at the very start and avoiding all interest.

Leasing that looks pretty good to me if you're worried about monthly payment. As for how good of a deal it is though it doesn't seem like anything special.

[Kavy]

Have you checked with the Cadillac dealers?

I was able to get a 16 ATS performance for the same price you listed the Honda for. Considering this is my work paid for car I am more than happy.

[Neil4Speed]

Mitsu, only you would start a thread which was meant for helping yourself but will probably end up being the reference for Lease vs Financing going forward.

I have the same car as 88CSX, with the 8 Speed. I know he has had some issues with his. Mine has been pretty good, at least I can't tell that its bad?

I won't lie, I had the same reservations that you did leasing a "base" TLX. Especially without things like Nav, Leather Seats (this one bugged me allot but the "leatherette" is just fine), the nice stereo, I'll be honest, now, I don't really care. I did look getting into the tech but it was way more (~120 a month), which wasn't worth it.

Mitsu, did you try calling GSL for the ATS deal? It might be available, you just might have to get to the right guy.

[88CRX]

Yup base awd is already loaded enough for my liking. I also thought I wanted Nav and the upgrade stereo but this more then enough. Leatherette seats you never know they aren't real leather.

And I haven't really had any major issue with transmission it's just not very good. It's laggy and it bumps up gears in stop and go traffic. Pretty sure it's the exact same ZF tranny that's in the jeep Cherokee. Apparently the 2017's have been improved.

My gas mileage has averaged 9.5L/100kms over last 6 months. I'd guess it was 8.5 in the summer months. That's mostly city driving in slow rush hour traffic. I use premium fuel only.

If you can wait till next fall I'm sure Acura will be giving away these tlx's again, considering the face lift model will be here by then. Me and Neil and my brother and his friend all bought in 2015 near the end of September. Exact same deal.

[bjstare]

Originally posted by dj_rice
I'm new to this lease vs finance vs buy car


Is there a Lease Vs Finance For Dummies Guide?

This isn't the first lease vs finance thread. There's one from a couple years back that rage2 did a big write up in, with lots of good marth in it. Definitely worth the read if anyone can find it.

[R154]

Marth has got to be my very favorite beyondism ever.

10/10 use.

[Mitsu3000gt]

Originally posted by Kavy
Have you checked with the Cadillac dealers?

I was able to get a 16 ATS performance for the same price you listed the Honda for. Considering this is my work paid for car I am more than happy.

Two of them PM'd me, I will have to see what they are offering. From Cadillac though I would only be interested in a ridiculous deal, simply because the cars don't do a lot for me, so the value would have to be on the price side not so much the ownership excitement side. I would be much more picky about price in that situation.



Originally posted by Neil4Speed
Mitsu, only you would start a thread which was meant for helping yourself but will probably end up being the reference for Lease vs Financing going forward.

I have the same car as 88CSX, with the 8 Speed. I know he has had some issues with his. Mine has been pretty good, at least I can't tell that its bad?

I won't lie, I had the same reservations that you did leasing a "base" TLX. Especially without things like Nav, Leather Seats (this one bugged me allot but the "leatherette" is just fine), the nice stereo, I'll be honest, now, I don't really care. I did look getting into the tech but it was way more (~120 a month), which wasn't worth it.

Mitsu, did you try calling GSL for the ATS deal? It might be available, you just might have to get to the right guy.

Haha whatever helps people! I have a feeling I will end up doing something different than planned, I often do, but maybe I will end up pulling a Mar in the end :rofl:

By 8 Speed does that mean you have the DCT? Or was the previous automatic 8 speed instead of 9 speed? I will have to drive one and see what I think of that transmission. I can say right now though that if it's too eager to get into gears 7-9 to save fuel economy when I'm doing 50km/h I probably won't like it. Having to floor the car and shift down 6 gears just to go from say 50-80km/h ruins the driving experience for me.

I did call GSL and ask about the ATS'. The reply I got was that due to all of the ridiculous deals in years past, the ATS residual is now so bad that they are no longer economic to lease. Knowing that they were $299/mo, I could not bring myself to pay much more than that out of principle alone for an ATS. It would bother me too much, especially since some of my friends are driving those $299 ATS' as a constant reminder :rofl: If I was driving the same thing for $400/mo, it would constantly make me angry haha. That being said if it's STILL the best deal at the end of the day, it has to be considered.

I am actually not picky at all about options in general, but my problem is that the few options I really do want are often split up into different, expensive packages. I want android car play (could settle for just bluetooth if the deal was good enough), a decent stereo, and blind spot monitoring. Beyond that I don't really care. I also much prefer google nav to vehicle nav so I wouldn't want that regardless. I am on my phone a lot in the car, changing music, navigation, etc. at stop lights so it would be really nice to have that integrated.


Originally posted by 88CRX
Yup base awd is already loaded enough for my liking. I also thought I wanted Nav and the upgrade stereo but this more then enough. Leatherette seats you never know they aren't real leather.

And I haven't really had any major issue with transmission it's just not very good. It's laggy and it bumps up gears in stop and go traffic. Pretty sure it's the exact same ZF tranny that's in the jeep Cherokee. Apparently the 2017's have been improved.

My gas mileage has averaged 9.5L/100kms over last 6 months. I'd guess it was 8.5 in the summer months. That's mostly city driving in slow rush hour traffic. I use premium fuel only.

If you can wait till next fall I'm sure Acura will be giving away these tlx's again, considering the face lift model will be here by then. Me and Neil and my brother and his friend all bought in 2015 near the end of September. Exact same deal.

Yeah I am definitely cool with the fake leather - Mercedes uses it too. I like it a lot and I imagine it's even more durable. I'm actually a fan of cloth interiors, because they look the same 10 years later and don't get hot/cold with weather, but for a lease it doesn't matter because you don't have to care for or worry about the leather. I think the TLX is the only car I have looked at that has a separate subwoofer in the base stereo so I suspect I'd be fine with it. Other cars with just a couple lower door speakers just don't cut it as I listen to music 100% of the time I am in the car.

Transmission worries me a bit but I will be test driving the new 9spd to see. If it's like the Cherokee's I can't bring myself to own something that bad, it would bother me too much despite an otherwise excellent car.

[R154]

Why didn't you consider my Tiguan suggestion. :(

[Mitsu3000gt]

Originally posted by R154
Why didn't you consider my Tiguan suggestion. :(

Sorry I thought I replied to everyone but I missed that!

The problem with the Tiguan is it uses the old 2.0T with low torque. All the other cars get the 258lb/ft from that motor and the Tiguan is stuck at 207. Also reviews all seem to dislike that VW 6AT, and DSG isn't available. Payment calculator shows $412 before taxes and fees so you're looking at over $430 assuming fright & PDI are in there. If I end up going to VW I will look at it though, maybe it surprises me. It can't hurt.

Have any of you driven a new Chevy Cruze? What did you think about it? Probably not my first choice but it's pretty cheap to lease.

[R154]

Actually, yes. A family member has a 1.4t

The engine is peppy. She gets ridiculous mileage. Quiet, comfortable. Infotainment system isn't bad. Seems to have decent fit and finish. A bit plasticy though.

No awd.

Fair enough on the tiguan. I test drove one and borrowed a coworkers for a day or so. I was shopping approximately the same segment for a work vehicle. Ended with the tiguan. Your criticism of the car are mostly accurate. The model we ended on came to a hair under 400 a month. Trend line with convenience package.

[Mitsu3000gt]

Thanks.

Yeah I don't know why VW paired the lower power motor with the Tiguan when it's heavier, and has to push AWD along with the less efficient 6AT (compared to DSG). It never seemed to get refreshed with the 258lb/ft version of the motor. If I were to end up with an SUV though, I would want a smaller one like that.

The Cruze looks pretty good, is available in a hatch back, and loaded to the nuts over $30K can be leased for $338/mo zero down. 0-60 is 7.6 seconds though which is almost a full second behind the new Civic and might feel slow, but it has good low torque which is what will matter for 90% of driving situations.

[mzdspd]

You need to drive these cars instead of just reading what the internet says.

I have driven the Golf and the Mazda3 GT.

The Golf has a great engine and trans combo with quick shifts but I found the suspension to be more geared towards comfort (a bit floaty) but overall the car was great. Very nice car for the price.

The Mazda3 GT is definitely the sportier car with a lively engine and sporty feel. It also has a premium interior for the price. it would definitely be more fun to drive then a B250 IMO.

With your budget, you are either going to have to wait until a deal comes up on a premium brand or just go with a cheaper brand. If it was me, I would go with the mazda.

[Mitsu3000gt]

I've driven almost all of these cars, just some of them not as recently as I'd like so I need a refresher. We have a GTI in the family as well, but it's not the new model. As I said earlier I am driving everything next week because the roads will be better :) . Would have gone this week but I wouldn't have got much out of the test drive, especially on the all seasons I'm sure all these cars have.

I won't entertain a Mazda because I will not buy another car with a N/A 4cyl. I have driven the current gen Mazda 3 and I was not a fan. A GT with the options I want leases out at $430/mo and is the only car here without a V6 or a Turbo. IMHO that is too much money for the least amount of car. On top of that I have heard nothing but bad things about every Mazda dealer in the city, and even with a lease I will have to deal with them at some point. All the closest competition has turbos for the same price (Civic, Golf/GTI) which lowers the Mazda's value proposition considerably for me.

The B250 is quite a bit faster than a Mazda3 GT (basically the same performance as a GTI around 6sec 0-60), and has the added fun of a DCT, but I have little doubt the Mazda would handle better. Also at our altitude the Mazda is losing an additional 15% of it's power or so, something the turbo cars are not affected by, bringing power down into the 150hp range.

[rage2]

Funny, my gf who drives the B250 90% of the time was just talking about how fun it was to drive in the snow. She did the SASC course before and is pretty comfortable figuring out the limits of the car, and with Hakka8's the limits are pretty up there this winter.

Anyways, from another thread, description of the B250 4Matic for those that haven't driven one before:

Originally posted by rage2
It's like a poorer handling more comfortable and roomier GTI. Dead even in a straight line. You do look like you're driving a mini-minivan tho.

It's also a bit of a drift machine in the winter with traction off. Pretty fun.
I will add that in the summers, even with all seasons, there's way too much traction to have any meaningful fun in it (at least for my driving style). It needs another 200-300hp to have it lose traction. That's pretty much a problem for me and every AWD car out there, including the 911 Turbo I owned years ago.

YMMV.

[mzdspd]

Originally posted by rage2
Funny, my gf who drives the B250 90% of the time was just talking about how fun it was to drive in the snow.

Okay that is all fine and dandy.. But how do you get one for 400 per month? I configured a base (without 4matic) and it is close to 500 per month. (24k per year, 0 down).

[rage2]

Originally posted by mzdspd
Okay that is all fine and dandy.. But how do you get one for 400 per month? I configured a base (without 4matic) and it is close to 500 per month. (24k per year, 0 down).
You don't. Mitsu's first post says that with current incentives it's $450/month. Ours (4matic with every option from 2015) with incentives, discounts, loyalty rate worked out to $500/month even.

I will mention that one trick that we do is that we go on a 39 month lease because we plan on replacing the vehicle every ~3 years anyways. MB has a no penalty early lease return (max 6 months, was 12 months) where if you lease/buy another MB vehicle, just drop the car off and lease ends early. So a 39 month lease rate (same interest rate) is effectively a 33 month lease, lowering your TCO even more. Back when it was 12 months, it was awesome. New car every 2 years at the much better 3 year rate/residuals, which explains why I was swapping some of my cars so often. There's other bullshit you can do to lower TCO, stretching service intervals slightly over so that you do one or 2 less services out of pocket when you return the lease. Typically, my lease returns will need the more expensive service a couple of months or a couple thousands of kms after my return. :rofl:

Only works if you're a MB fanboy.

[Xtrema]

Originally posted by Mitsu3000gt
Damn for $365/mo I'd be all over that (or a bit more for the tech). Do you remember what month they had that in?

Also is the current 9spd the same one everyone is complaining about? One thing I can't stand is a transmission with too many gears and shitty programming - had a couple rentals with them now (Jeep Cherokee) and it ruined the entire vehicle.

The 9spd is the same ZF 9sp in the Jeep Cherokee. Not sure if it's programmed better in TLX tho.

EDIT: nope, lots of bitching on harsh shifts
http://www.tlxforums.com/forum/complaints/13682-update-zf-re-9-speed-transmission-24.html


The $365 deal was fall 2015. I don't think it has been repeated since.

http://forums.redflagdeals.com/2015-acura-tlx-sh-awd-v6-48-month-lease-0-down-375-incl-tax-super-hot-1818457/

[Mitsu3000gt]

The current B250 incentive is a $3570 discount and 0.9% leasing.

Freight & PDI is ~$2300 which is pretty high, and not included in any of the pricing you see online until you hit the checkbox on the lease page. Dealer money grab admin fee is $895 which is insane, but I would not expect to pay that (would likely be a deal-breaker in fact).

Prepaid maintenance is $18/mo and apparently gives you a 30% discount compared to lump-summing it.

I am not sure how much negotiating room there is on the B250's sale price but the sales rep from DT Mercedes seems to think they are extremely motivated in the month of February, and are hosting sales events to preempt the car show.

I need some Car Cost Canada reports I think to help me with my calculations.

The B250 gives you a lot of car for the money, but it's also one of the most expensive things I'm looking at in terms of a monthly payment.



Originally posted by Xtrema


The 9spd is the same ZF 9sp in the Jeep Cherokee. Not sure if it's programmed better in TLX tho.

EDIT: nope, lots of bitching on harsh shifts
http://www.tlxforums.com/forum/complaints/13682-update-zf-re-9-speed-transmission-24.html


The $365 deal was fall 2015. I don't think it has been repeated since.

http://forums.redflagdeals.com/2015-acura-tlx-sh-awd-v6-48-month-lease-0-down-375-incl-tax-super-hot-1818457/

Well that's too bad - it was quite possibly the worst transmission I have ever experienced in the Cherokee. Harsh shifts wouldn't bother me as much as horrid programming though. I cannot stand it when it's in 8th or 9th gear at all times unless it's floored.

[88CRX]

Originally posted by Mitsu3000gt


Transmission worries me a bit but I will be test driving the new 9spd to see. If it's like the Cherokee's I can't bring myself to own something that bad, it would bother me too much despite an otherwise excellent car.

Here’s the 2 scenarios that play out every day with the transmission that annoy me.

- As you accelerate (from a stop light or in stop and go rush hour traffic) if you can’t keep constant or increased throttle pressure (ie: you let up on the peddle) the shifts from first to second or second to third aren’t that smooth and you feel the car ‘bump’ as it shifts (like a less then ideal shift in a manual transmission car). If you’re giving it shit and pinning it or keep the acceleration constant all the shifts are silky smooth. I can replicate this issue almost all the time and its slightly worse in colder weather then the warmer months. Some people have had this issue improved or fixed by software updates at the dealership, my latest update had no effect on the issue.

-If your cruising along in slow moving rush hour traffic at say 30-50km/h and want to switch lanes into a fast moving lane (say 70-80 km/hour) you signal, change lanes, mash the gas peddle and then wait… and wait… and wait… and then it finally powers up after shifting down a couple gears and you get going. I should actually time it but it must be 2 full second (which feels like forever when a faster moving car is approaching you from behind) before you start accelerating.

I only drive in sport mode. Eco mode is terrible for power delivery and steering feedback. Normal is slightly improved but still lame. And sport plus mode is useless, never in the right gear, aggressive downshifts, crazy high RPM’s… its completely useless. Paddle shifters also suck and are supper laggy.

If/when you test drive one make sure you try and replicate these issues, I believe they’ve been improved in 2016’s and 2017’s but not 100% sure.

[Mitsu3000gt]

Originally posted by 88CRX


Here’s the 2 scenarios that play out every day with the transmission that annoy me.

- As you accelerate (from a stop light or in stop and go rush hour traffic) if you can’t keep constant or increased throttle pressure (ie: you let up on the peddle) the shifts from first to second or second to third aren’t that smooth and you feel the car ‘bump’ as it shifts (like a less then ideal shift in a manual transmission car). If you’re giving it shit and pinning it or keep the acceleration constant all the shifts are silky smooth. I can replicate this issue almost all the time and its slightly worse in colder weather then the warmer months. Some people have had this issue improved or fixed by software updates at the dealership, my latest update had no effect on the issue.

-If your cruising along in slow moving rush hour traffic at say 30-50km/h and want to switch lanes into a fast moving lane (say 70-80 km/hour) you signal, change lanes, mash the gas peddle and then wait… and wait… and wait… and then it finally powers up after shifting down a couple gears and you get going. I should actually time it but it must be 2 full second (which feels like forever when a faster moving car is approaching you from behind) before you start accelerating.

I only drive in sport mode. Eco mode is terrible for power delivery and steering feedback. Normal is slightly improved but still lame. And sport plus mode is useless, never in the right gear, aggressive downshifts, crazy high RPM’s… its completely useless. Paddle shifters also suck and are supper laggy.

If/when you test drive one make sure you try and replicate these issues, I believe they’ve been improved in 2016’s and 2017’s but not 100% sure.

Thanks - will definitely go through all the modes on the test drive. If it's livable in sport mode, that could be OK for the right price.

[max_boost]

Originally posted by rage2

You don't. Mitsu's first post says that with current incentives it's $450/month. Ours (4matic with every option from 2015) with incentives, discounts, loyalty rate worked out to $500/month even.

I will mention that one trick that we do is that we go on a 39 month lease because we plan on replacing the vehicle every ~3 years anyways. MB has a no penalty early lease return (max 6 months, was 12 months) where if you lease/buy another MB vehicle, just drop the car off and lease ends early. So a 39 month lease rate (same interest rate) is effectively a 33 month lease, lowering your TCO even more. Back when it was 12 months, it was awesome. New car every 2 years at the much better 3 year rate/residuals, which explains why I was swapping some of my cars so often. There's other bullshit you can do to lower TCO, stretching service intervals slightly over so that you do one or 2 less services out of pocket when you return the lease. Typically, my lease returns will need the more expensive service a couple of months or a couple thousands of kms after my return. :rofl:

Only works if you're a MB fanboy.

Interesting. What about mileage?

Say you are on 39 months / 2000kms per month

You return it at 33 months so max mileage you are allowed is 66k? or?

Mitsu3000gt: Benz service is $$$ or maybe I'm just cheap or I'm use to have it hidden in the car price like BMW lol

Just got a service B done 40K service done on my 11 GLK and with brake fluid it was almost $900.
:rofl: :rofl: :cry:

[Mitsu3000gt]

Originally posted by max_boost


Mitsu3000gt: Benz service is $$$ or maybe I'm just cheap or I'm use to have it hidden in the car price like BMW lol

Just got a service B done 40K service done on my 11 GLK and with brake fluid it was almost $900.
:rofl: :rofl: :cry:

It's possible I misunderstood something, or they are actively hiding something, but I was told it was $18/mo for prepaid service on the B250 which works out to a 30% savings compare to lump-summing it every time it's due. Some cars offer free maintenance, so it's definitely something to take into consideration.

Is that Service B you got absolutely mandatory to maintain MB warranty, or is it dealer recommended only? As I recently learned with Honda, those are two very different things, but maybe MB bones you no matter what :rofl:

[max_boost]

I'm not sure. I thought about taking it elsewhere but it's been serviced at Lone Star since day one so might as well keep going. It's out of warranty. I'm sure I paid double vs an independent shop. I just figured if I were to ever sell the vehicle, it looks cleaner if dealer serviced. Or I'm just an idiot lol

So definitely consider the service aspect too.

What other manufacturers offer *free* maintenance? Free in the sense they built it into the price of the vehicle already.

I liked it with BMW, every 20k drop the car off and just pick it up, nothing out of pocket lol

[max_boost]

I took a look at the ILX but the base model at $30k doesn't come with heated seats. Seriously?

I don't know about your must haves but mine are quite simple actually: heated seats & back up sensor or camera + there must be a key hole in the door where I can lock the car when it's running.

For example on the Golf there's a cover for the key hole so when the car is running, you can't lock it unless you remove the cover to expose the key hole which then makes the car aesthetically speaking, look like shit lol :rofl:

[88CRX]

Originally posted by max_boost
I took a look at the ILX but the base model at $30k doesn't come with heated seats. Seriously?


No point in considering the ILX with the new Civic out now. Although I'm sure an ILX update is coming soon.

[K3RMiTdot]

+1 for the TLX. I would however wait until 2018's slide around, might get you a better deal. Selection/colors might be limited though.

[Xtrema]

Originally posted by max_boost
I took a look at the ILX but the base model at $30k doesn't come with heated seats. Seriously?


Don't bother with ILX, the new Civic is a superior car in every way and there is an hatch version.

I rather pay $32K for a loaded Civic Hatch (manual available) than a base ILX.

[max_boost]

Wow. The civic LX is legit if you just need a basic car. Wow.

$300 lease / 48 months. Surprising! :eek:

[Xtrema]

Originally posted by max_boost
Wow. The civic LX is legit if you just need a basic car. Wow.

$300 lease / 48 months. Surprising! :eek:

What's surprising is that hatch is basically brand new shipped from UK.

Not only it get rebate on lease, it also get same low rate as sedan. And you can choose manual on top trims. You are stuck with CVT on the sedan for anything above the LX trim.

[italianstylez]

Just FYI for anyone wanting a super cheap lease on a car , the premier Cruze hatch loaded with heated front and back seats and steering wheel, full leather, forward collision warning, blind spot monitor, lane departure warning, proximity entry, push button start, apple car play/android auto, sunroof, backup camera, and remote start from your phone much like drone but free for 5 years, leases extremely well especially for how much stuff you get.

[bourge73]

^ Can you post details on the lease ? Km per year allowance, price per month , what the residuals looks like after 4 years and if you can get the car in manual. Wife's 13 CRV is up beginning of May and we are looking to lower our monthly payments in this fun economy ( Civic is on top right now)

[R154]

Have we considered a 17 fusion titanium? It's awd, with almost every feature minus lane departure (which is an option) it leases for about 400 a month.

The engine is 240hp/270 tq. And it has way more presence and is a nice ride than any focus. Still somewhat sporty.

Could try and find a deal on a 16. I don't know if they're leasing 16s still.

[Xtrema]

Originally posted by R154
Have we considered a 17 fusion titanium?

Was running with one on Ghost Lake a few weeks back, that thing got mad grip on non-studded winter tires.

[Mitsu3000gt]

Originally posted by bourge73
^ Can you post details on the lease ? Km per year allowance, price per month , what the residuals looks like after 4 years and if you can get the car in manual. Wife's 13 CRV is up beginning of May and we are looking to lower our monthly payments in this fun economy ( Civic is on top right now)

Loaded to the nuts I think it came out to $338/mo not sure about GST. I'm checking one out next week I will report back here on everything I drive. KM allowance was 20,000. The Cruze hatch actually looks awesome, I just keep reading it is bland and no fun to drive, so I suspect that will be it's main downfall.



Originally posted by R154
Have we considered a 17 fusion titanium? It's awd, with almost every feature minus lane departure (which is an option) it leases for about 400 a month.

The engine is 240hp/270 tq. And it has way more presence and is a nice ride than any focus. Still somewhat sporty.

Could try and find a deal on a 16. I don't know if they're leasing 16s still.

Fusion Titanium with the options I would need (basically just driver assistance pkg) is $420/mo and I don't think GST is in there so $441. The "Sport" would be sweet with the TTV6 but it's over $500/mo. Not super thrilled about that car (aside from the sport), so I think it would have to be a hell of a deal for me to look at.

2016 might be a better deal but if they are like MB they won't even entertain a lease on a 2016 because they don't make enough money off it haha. I tried to lease a 2016 B250 demo that had a $9,000 discount and they wouldn't even entertain it.

I do appreciate all the suggestions though!

[R154]

You have inspired some serious debate and research around my table. More suggestions to follow.

[italianstylez]

Originally posted by bourge73
^ Can you post details on the lease ? Km per year allowance, price per month , what the residuals looks like after 4 years and if you can get the car in manual. Wife's 13 CRV is up beginning of May and we are looking to lower our monthly payments in this fun economy ( Civic is on top right now)

Your under 400 for sure, I can't remember residuals at the moment but they're quite good considering a top model is 30 and under.
You can get a manual hatch, but no leather, or heated wheel, but you still get push start, proximity entry, heated front seats and can still get a sunroof, apple car play/android auto, backup cam, heated seats and proximity entry are standard on the hatch, it comes LT or premier, and you can get with or without RS styling package which I think is what really does it well in the styling department.

[Aleks]

Originally posted by max_boost
Wow. The civic LX is legit if you just need a basic car. Wow.

$300 lease / 48 months. Surprising! :eek:

Corolla is even a better deal if all you want is a basic car.

LE CVT is $247 gst in / 48 months
with leather heated steering wheel, s/r, alloys it's $265. Can't beat that.

As already posted by one member in this thread, it is possible to be in a base GTI for $360 a month roughly.

But yeah, for compacts, take a B250 out along with a base Golf and then a GTI back to back and see what happens.

[max_boost]

Originally posted by Aleks


Corolla is even a better deal if all you want is a basic car.

LE CVT is $247 gst in / 48 months
with leather heated steering wheel, s/r, alloys it's $265. Can't beat that.

As already posted by one member in this thread, it is possible to be in a base GTI for $360 a month roughly.

But yeah, for compacts, take a B250 out along with a base Golf and then a GTI back to back and see what happens.

The Corolla SE + upgrade package looks legit. It's a nice looking car.

4 years/24k per. + Excess wear tear 0% lease. $307/month

[Hallowed_point]

Originally posted by max_boost
The Corolla SE + upgrade package looks legit. It's a nice looking car.

4 years/24k per. + Excess wear tear 0% lease. $307/month That's actually a great choice as well for less of a performance car. Best looking Corolla I've seen. Did a double take at one the other day. Nice snowplow too.

[Mitsu3000gt]

The Corolla is a good lease deal if all you need is something to get from A to B and don't care about much else. Looks way better than prior years. The heated steering wheel would make it a great winter beater.

Going to drive the new Civic tonight (touring 1.5T), I will report back. I have a feeling it will end up being one of the front runners, and has been getting great reviews. Downside will probably be the CVT - I read it is one of the better ones but I suspect I would still prefer a traditional transmission.

[Mitsu3000gt]

Originally posted by Aleks


As already posted by one member in this thread, it is possible to be in a base GTI for $360 a month roughly.

But yeah, for compacts, take a B250 out along with a base Golf and then a GTI back to back and see what happens.

Problem I have with the GTI is the option packages that make it $38K in a hurry, at which point you are ~$2K off of an entry Golf R before fees. The base model 4-door is already $35K, and that is without DSG or any options. Add DSG, driver assistance, and fees and it is $41,400 for not even the performance version of the GTI, let alone the R.

The 2-door 6MT with zero options is over $380/mo before dealer fees to lease for 4 years - where are you seeing $360? Are the dealers giving big discounts?

[dtrieu]

Originally posted by Mitsu3000gt


Problem I have with the GTI is the option packages that make it $38K in a hurry, at which point you are ~$2K off of an entry Golf R before fees. The base model 4-door is already $35K, and that is without DSG or any options. Add DSG, driver assistance, and fees and it is $41,400 for not even the performance version of the GTI, let alone the R.

The 2-door 6MT with zero options is over $380/mo before dealer fees to lease for 4 years - where are you seeing $360? Are the dealers giving big discounts?

I just leased a 2017 base 3dr gti and your pricing is more accurate than the $360.

[gpomp]

Mine is a 2016 3 door DSG on a 48/25k and I pay a hair over $360 with $0 down. There are others on Beyond with this car at this price. You could get as low as $330-340 if you went with less km and a manual.

[rage2]

Prob just depends on timing. 2016's had some killer deals on interest and residuals after dieselgate with GTIs and R's.

[gpomp]

Originally posted by rage2
Prob just depends on timing. 2016's had some killer deals on interest and residuals after dieselgate with GTIs and R's. I just priced out a 17 and it's about $5 more than what I'm paying for mine

[Aleks]

Originally posted by Mitsu3000gt



The 2-door 6MT with zero options is over $380/mo before dealer fees to lease for 4 years - where are you seeing $360? Are the dealers giving big discounts?

I would just email Ryan directly, forget PM. He may not hang out on Beyond as much as we do :rofl: You can find his email on their site.

There is a reason tons of guys go up there to pick up their new VWs. Hard to get similar pricing in Calgary.

[max_boost]

For the performance the GTi is impressive. The WRX is basically the same price 29,995 but checks out at $440/month before any discounts although I'm sure $400 is possible.

I would opt for a 3 door manual GTi but gf might think wtf since she has a Golf as well haha

I'm putting a lot of mileage on my GLK right now, close to 900km/week :eek: I hope nothing breaks on it since it's post waranty :nut: :dunno:

[Hallowed_point]

^ Also agree on the GTI. Quite quick with the DSG. Feels much more high end than a VW should. At least...for now lol

[Mitsu3000gt]

Originally posted by Aleks


I would just email Ryan directly, forget PM. He may not hang out on Beyond as much as we do :rofl: You can find his email on their site.

There is a reason tons of guys go up there to pick up their new VWs. Hard to get similar pricing in Calgary.

EDIT: I emailed him and response was instant.



Originally posted by max_boost
For the performance the GTi is impressive. The WRX is basically the same price 29,995 but checks out at $440/month before any discounts although I'm sure $400 is possible.

I would opt for a 3 door manual GTi but gf might think wtf since she has a Golf as well haha

I'm putting a lot of mileage on my GLK right now, close to 900km/week :eek: I hope nothing breaks on it since it's post waranty :nut: :dunno:

WRX has the same problem as the GTI (for me), as soon as you put the necessary options on it, it's $38K. Also I would have to take a manual which I am not sure I want to do again.

3-door GTI's seem to be what everyone is getting deals on but I need 4-door :(

[Prelude_dude]

Acura has some pretty solid promos right now on lease rates if you willing to put down a bit of a down payment and a security deposit. We are looking at an RDX with lease rates between 0.01% and 0.4%. Should probably be able to get in that range on the TLX as well. Its their 30 year anniversary, so it seems they are pretty flexible.

Let me know if you are interested and I can PM you my guy's name.

[Xtrema]

cm1EAysVIlA

[Mitsu3000gt]

Did some test driving yesterday, here were my thoughts:

2017 Honda Civic Hatchback Sport 6MT & CVT (did not have a sport touring for me to test):

This car really surprised me. I generally had an idea what to expect from the reviews but I liked it a lot. This is not anything like the Civics I am used to, and behaves much more like a refined Accord than a Civic. It's not a tiny car anymore either, there is plenty of room everywhere. There is a lot more sound deadening. You do not feel like you're in a Civic IMO. The body cladding and LCD dash are a little "boy racer" but I think that is to be expected from Honda by now. Doors shut with a nice "thud", even with the windows down, which is always one of my tests that most cars fail. Interior materials are pretty good, what needs to feel nice does, and the cheaper stuff was well disguised. A step above the average econobox for sure, but the materials won't blow your mind.

Chassis was great, sporty ride but not harsh at all, seemed to be very well tuned. I couldn't do anything too crazy because the roads were wet and it was dark but it seemed to handle more than well enough to be fun. The clutch and shiftier are very light feeling, typical ridiculously easy to drive Honda. Steering was surprisingly heavy for Honda, weighted well IMO.

The new 1.5T is a great little motor. There was about twice the throttle pedal travel I am used to, so it took me a minute to get acquainted and turn off "Eco" mode, but after that the car became much more lively haha. The motor's power is significantly underrated. Hondata dyno'd a CVT model (which has less HP/TQ than the 6MT models) at 177hp/190tq at the wheels (advertised is 174hp/167tq at the crank). Add 15% to that or so and you're at 203 Hp / 218 TQ which makes more sense after driving it. The 6MT model should have a bit more on top of that. It makes that torque from 1700-5000RPM, so pretty much everywhere after you get moving. Torque in a Civic was a weird feeling, and in 6th gear going up a hill on the highway you can actually accelerate quite nicely which is something you don't really get with a N/A 4cyl. It matters a lot less what gear you are in, which makes it much easier to drive as a manual IMO.

Compared to the Sedan (Ontario), the Hatchback is actually made in England. It is 135mm shorter, but has the same wheelbase. It has extra bracing and different dampening, and hydraulic bushings instead of rubber on the other cars (Same for high-trimmed sedans). Different steering ratio. The hatch has slightly less leg room in the back than the Sedan, but more headroom and hip-room. Canadians are the only ones who can get the Hatch in Sport Touring with a manual, apparently.

The interior layout and technology list is really quite excellent as well. Every imaginable space has been creatively utilized. Since it has an electronic parking brake, there is now a cavernous center console similar to something you might find in a minivan or SUV. Under the dash there is a grippy wireless charging pad for your phone. Android/Apple auto is standard on all models. It's only downfall is probably that there is no volume knob (touch screen only) however there are steering wheel controls that I imagine would get used most anyway. Sport and above gets the proximity key & push button start. If you move up to the sport touring, you get every piece of tech you could reasonably want, including rain sensing wipers, heated rear seats, auto-high beams, radar cruise control, lane keep, automatic low-speed follow for traffic, auto braking, 12 speaker 540w stereo w/sub, full LED hi/low beams, etc. It has an all-digital dash that would take a little while to get used to as I do prefer standard gauges, but not a big deal.

I briefly drove a CVT model as well but didn't go far enough to form a reliable opinion. First impression was that it was much better than your typical CVT, which reviews seem to echo as well. There was no droning or weird behavior that I noticed, and it didn't seem to fight the turbo. I couldn't really tell that it has slightly less power than the 6MT, but I didn't do anything too crazy in it either.

Whether it will end up being the best overall deal for me I don't know, but you sure do get a lot for your money. I think if you could negotiate a sport touring to under $30K it would be hard to beat as a total package. That being said, Honda lists hilariously low unrealistic residuals, so the lease payments are higher than I'd like. Having to sell the car after the lease to make some money back takes away one huge plus of leasing - that you don't have to put in any effort to taking care of it. If you are selling it privately at the end of the lease, that changes everything.

2017 Hyundai Elantra Sport

After Honda we went over to Hyundai. Sitting in these two cars back to back, it was night & day or at least seemed like it to me. The Hyundai just felt so cheap. Hard garbage plastic absolutely everywhere, even high up on the doors and touch surfaces. Doors rattled when they shut. Everything felt flimsy, light, and cheap. Everything had play in it. Cheap traditional parking brake, far less utility and cleverness to the interior overall. Very plain and uninteresting after being in the Civic. No clever storage, clever layout, or anything like that. Switch gear felt a bit cheaper, but it could have just been because I was so turned off by the rest of it. Didn't even bother with the test drive, I have taken that car off my list. It's probably pretty fun to drive, but I would not consider the car based on the interior. I walked away thinking the cost to build that car compared to the Civic was far less.

2017 VW GTI 3-door Autobahn DSG

Who knew the 3-door GTI was exactly the same size/dimensions as the 5-door? I did not haha. Made things a little more interesting, but I would still prefer the 5-door.

Overall very nice car, not hard to see why they are so popular. Interior was well put together but uninteresting. Traditional e-brake and limited push-to-open center console storage seemed bland and did not have nearly the utility of the Civic's setup. Materials were good up front but they cheap out for the back seat passengers. The LED strips on the door sills were a nice touch, gave the high end feeling. Great seat, great dash, nice big bolsters. Nice traditional gauge cluster (which I prefer to LCD). The GTI has more cargo room than the Civic hatch inside with the seats down, but quite a bit less with the seats up where for me they would most often be. Fender Audio system was more than enough for my needs, and had a clever subwoofer in the spare tire area.

It drove well, but rode noticeably harsher than the Civic Hatch. I couldn't tell if it handled any better, the roads weren't great and I didn't want to do anything stupid. The DSG paddles had lag that I didn't remember from previous drives, which took away almost all the fun of using them in manual for me, but it operated really well in sport-auto mode too. The rev-matched downshifts are nice and give a premium feeling to the drive. The car definitely felt a little faster than the Civic, and performance numbers show it's about a half second faster 0-60.

At over $40K though I don't think I see $10K more car than a loaded Civic Hatch. It seems you are mostly paying for DSG and the more powerful engine, which shouldn't be overlooked, but you also give up some features and some interior utility. Given that I am rarely doing 'performance driving' around the city or in rush hour, the Civic was a nicer place to spend time in I think (for me). The GTI was a little quicker and probably would edge it out in the handling department, but the DSG wasn't quite as good as I thought I remembered either. I would like to revisit it in the daylight with some dry roads though, I might feel differently. A manual GTI would also take a couple grand off the price which helps.

Tonight I plan to drive the ATS, B250, and possibly the Cruze if the Cadillac dealer has one since I will be there anyway.

[R154]

Goodluck!!!

Great GREAT reviews so far man. Kudos.

[Hallowed_point]

Love the reviews dude.

[4doorj]

I just got a 2017 Civic hatchback sport 6 speed manual. I absolutely love it! It's fun to drive! Handles sporty. You don't have to go so fast to have fun with the car. Turbo is fun, haven't really pushed it that hard yet. And the gas mileage on it is amazing so far.
The infotainment is so awesome. Having Android auto makes listening to music so easy. Love the way Honda's feel.
http://www3.telus.net/public/4doorj/civichatchback/hatchback%20back.jpg

[HiSpec]

Originally posted by 4doorj
I just got a 2017 Civic hatchback sport 6 speed manual. I absolutely love it! It's fun to drive! Handles sporty. You don't have to go so fast to have fun with the car. Turbo is fun, haven't really pushed it that hard yet. And the gas mileage on it is amazing so far.
The infotainment is so awesome. Having Android auto makes listening to music so easy. Love the way Honda's feel.
http://www3.telus.net/public/4doorj/civichatchback/hatchback%20back.jpg

Congrats!

It's this generation of Civic just as mod friendly as the 8th gen was?

[bigbadboss101]

Mitsu that write up was great! Very professional. Looking forward your views on the other test drives.

[Hallowed_point]

Good choice. They look awesome in white. You're going to love the handling, fuel economy and features. Lane watch is awesome. :thumbsup: Ironic how much of a modern honda advocate I've become. But they really know how to build a car that you fall in love with. Without getting arrested lol

[4doorj]

Originally posted by HiSpec


Congrats!

It's this generation of Civic just as mod friendly as the 8th gen was?
It's so brand new not much out yet. But I heard with hondata they have a +3 and a +6 psi tune for it.
It bumps it from (174 hp and 162 tq) to (213 hp and 241 tq)

[Mitsu3000gt]

Originally posted by 4doorj

It's so brand new not much out yet. But I heard with hondata they have a +3 and a +6 psi tune for it.
It bumps it from (174 hp and 162 tq) to (213 hp and 241 tq)

Congrats on the car!

The 174HP/167tq is just for the LX model in the 6MT. Yours has an advertised 180hp / 177tq. Not a whole lot different but anything helps!

[Mitsu3000gt]

Glad everyone liked my mini-reviews! It helps me too, keeping my thoughts in order.

I forgot it was Valentine's day yesterday so I had to cancel my test drives, but I did visit Cadillac. I'll be going out again later this week or Saturday.

Am I an idiot if I don't lease a loaded 2017 ATS 2.0T AWD Luxury pkg for $399/mo? Window sticker is $50K. It's a lot of car for the payment, exact same price per month as all the $30K cars. It doesn't excite me as much, but it's also hard for me to turn down a good deal. I'm most excited about the new Civic, how well it drove, how modern it is etc., but the ATS is unquestionably more car at the end of the day (though it does lack a few things like lane keep, auto brake, auto cruise, etc.) Terms are $980 down, $399/mo, 15k allowance, 24 month lease. What do you guys think?

[R154]

I don't think you'd be an idiot. If you feel like you're getting what you need from it then it is a worthy purchase.

Are those features deal breakers?

Another thing to think about is if you plan to buy out the vehicle. Honda> Cadillac.

[ExtraSlow]

Only halfway off topic: Does anyone do like a 30 month lease? In stead of a 24 or 36?


:hijack:

[ExtraSlow]

After two years that Honda and the Cadillac will be worth about the same amount on the resale market. If you are doing anything other than just handing back the keys, that could be a factor.

[never]

Originally posted by Mitsu3000gt
Glad everyone liked my mini-reviews! It helps me too, keeping my thoughts in order.

I forgot it was Valentine's day yesterday so I had to cancel my test drives, but I did visit Cadillac. I'll be going out again later this week or Saturday.

Am I an idiot if I don't lease a loaded 2017 ATS 2.0T AWD Luxury pkg for $399/mo? Window sticker is $50K. It's a lot of car for the payment, exact same price per month as all the $30K cars. It doesn't excite me as much, but it's also hard for me to turn down a good deal. I'm most excited about the new Civic, how well it drove, how modern it is etc., but the ATS is unquestionably more car at the end of the day (though it does lack a few things like lane keep, auto brake, auto cruise, etc.) Terms are $980 down, $399/mo, 15k allowance, 24 month lease. What do you guys think?

Did you drive the ATS?

[88CRX]

And 15k kms annually is nothing!

I thought I’d be good with 20k annually and I will go over if I don’t watch it closer in the future. Something to consider if you’re returning it at lease end.

[Mitsu3000gt]

Originally posted by R154
I don't think you'd be an idiot. If you feel like you're getting what you need from it then it is a worthy purchase.

Are those features deal breakers?

Another thing to think about is if you plan to buy out the vehicle. Honda> Cadillac.

They do actually have one with those features I want as it turns out - it's a standalone safety package that adds all that stuff. Wouldn't be a deal breaker, but I do want them and it's one of the advantages of buying a new car in 2017 as it's fairly easy to get. To be honest I keep trying to find reasons to go back to the Civic but the overall value proposition is probably unmatched for the ATS if I am OK with the lease terms. And I get AWD.


Originally posted by ExtraSlow
After two years that Honda and the Cadillac will be worth about the same amount on the resale market. If you are doing anything other than just handing back the keys, that could be a factor.

100% would not be buying it out at the end. The Honda has a ridiculously low buyout of $12K on a $31K car after 4 years (probably worth high teens still by then). But if I planned to buy it out I would just finance it I think.


Originally posted by never


Did you drive the ATS?

I've driven it 3 times now I think, but that was last year when I was helping some friends get into the $299 deal. I'll drive it again for a refresher tonight or tomorrow. It was decent but not mind blowing. Just kind of a generally nice car, nothing too standout. Power is decent, 0-60 is in the mid to high 5's. The 8spd auto is OK, it does a better job than some of the other 8-9spds I've driven. Body roll was more than expected, but it isn't the performance package model and it was still pretty well composed. The chassis is decent. It's not my first choice but it is a lot of car for the money, so that is the struggle. Also I'm only committed for 2 years instead of 4-5 which depending on how things go for me, could be an advantage. You also get free scheduled maintenance and oil changes, which is not offered in the others. I suppose one other advantage is I get to look at a new car again in 2 years time, which is always exciting.



Originally posted by 88CRX
And 15k kms annually is nothing!

I thought I’d be good with 20k annually and I will go over if I don’t watch it closer in the future. Something to consider if you’re returning it at lease end.

I think 15K would be alright, but it worries me slightly. When I lived downtown I drove 5-8K/year. Now I commute downtown and that works out to ~6,200 km/year, but I don't drive too much outside of that. I don't want to get into a situation where I want to drive the car and I can't because I'm so worried about going over 15K, but I don't *think* that will happen at least based on my current driving habits. I suppose that is an advantage of the 2year term, if you screw up, you aren't locked in for too long. You might be able to add KMs mid-lease too, not sure. A plus for the Civic is that minimum lease kms is 20K allowance, so you have a little bit of a safety net.

[max_boost]

Originally posted by Mitsu3000gt
Glad everyone liked my mini-reviews! It helps me too, keeping my thoughts in order.

I forgot it was Valentine's day yesterday so I had to cancel my test drives, but I did visit Cadillac. I'll be going out again later this week or Saturday.

Am I an idiot if I don't lease a loaded 2017 ATS 2.0T AWD Luxury pkg for $399/mo? Window sticker is $50K. It's a lot of car for the payment, exact same price per month as all the $30K cars. It doesn't excite me as much, but it's also hard for me to turn down a good deal. I'm most excited about the new Civic, how well it drove, how modern it is etc., but the ATS is unquestionably more car at the end of the day (though it does lack a few things like lane keep, auto brake, auto cruise, etc.) Terms are $980 down, $399/mo, 15k allowance, 24 month lease. What do you guys think?

Is that the same ATS as before on the $299 deal? I presume the $299 were demo/low mileage cars hence the price. But when leasing it doesn't matter if it's demo model etc. Huge discounts are nice haha

What's the over mileage fees? $0.15/km?

[Mitsu3000gt]

Originally posted by max_boost


Is that the same ATS as before on the $299 deal? I presume the $299 were demo/low mileage cars hence the price. But when leasing it doesn't matter if it's demo model etc. Huge discounts are nice haha

What's the over mileage fees? $0.15/km?

It's not, if it was I think I would be opposed to it out of principle alone since my friend drives one at $299 and his gloating would be insufferable :rofl: I'm not sure it's worth $100/mo but it does add some nice things. Also they are new cars not Demo's, but you're right that wouldn't matter for a lease.

The $299 models were loaded base models, these are loaded "luxury" package models. $0.16/extra KM according to the website. I noticed other cars were as low at $0.08/km over. Some manufacturers let you buy additional KM for a reduced rate, I am not sure how Cadillac does it.

[ExtraSlow]

Originally posted by ExtraSlow
Only halfway off topic: Does anyone do like a 30 month lease? In stead of a 24 or 36?


:hijack:

[Mitsu3000gt]

Never seen 30 but you can do 39 and 45 as "odd" numbers.

[ExtraSlow]

Hmm, might be looking at a something-and-a-half year term.

[Aleks]

Originally posted by Mitsu3000gt


100% would not be buying it out at the end. The Honda has a ridiculously low buyout of $12K on a $31K car after 4 years (probably worth high teens still by then). But if I planned to buy it out I would just finance it I think.



Here's my take:
You really seem to like the Civic, whereas you're looking at the ATS, because it's a Caddy. Taking care of a lease is really not that hard. Say you got the Civic touring hatch for $400/month. Civics are easy to sell. At end of lease you're 12k+gst=$12.6k to buy it out and sell it. Say you sell it for $17k. That's $4,400 back to you, meaning your $400 lease was actually ~$300/month over time you had it.

Now this Cadillac deal we agree there is likely 0 equity at the end, with how crappy the resale is on them.
$400*1.05= $420/month + ($980/24) = $460/month effective.

ATS is a great deal for sure. But, realistically the Civic is cheaper if you look at total (potential) cost of ownership.



Originally posted by ExtraSlow
Hmm, might be looking at a something-and-a-half year term.

If the numbers are right 30 months is no different than any other lease. I've done as low as 24 and as high as 60 month leases.

[max_boost]

Dropped by Subaru to take a peak because since 06 I've always had a Subaru in the fleet. Can't decide what's more important, power or no power. 170 vs 250. :nut:

[Hallowed_point]

Originally posted by max_boost
Dropped by Subaru to take a peak because since 06 I've always had a Subaru in the fleet. Can't decide what's more important, power or no power. 170 vs 250. :nut: What would clarkson do?

[R154]

Get an sti

[Hallowed_point]

Originally posted by R154
Get an sti Isn't the wrx close to as fast for way less $$$$?

[Mitsu3000gt]

Originally posted by Aleks


Here's my take:
You really seem to like the Civic, whereas you're looking at the ATS, because it's a Caddy. Taking care of a lease is really not that hard. Say you got the Civic touring hatch for $400/month. Civics are easy to sell. At end of lease you're 12k+gst=$12.6k to buy it out and sell it. Say you sell it for $17k. That's $4,400 back to you, meaning your $400 lease was actually ~$300/month over time you had it.

Now this Cadillac deal we agree there is likely 0 equity at the end, with how crappy the resale is on them.
$400*1.05= $420/month + ($980/24) = $460/month effective.

ATS is a great deal for sure. But, realistically the Civic is cheaper if you look at total (potential) cost of ownership.




Thanks.

Yeah I like the Civic a lot. The ATS is undeniably more car granted for a bit more money - I guess I still need to decide what's more important to me.

A 24-month lease on a Civic gives you payments of $650/mo which is nuts and obviously out of the question.

The Civic payments are tricky - biweekly is $402.50/mo all-in however there are some months where you have to pay 3 times. I don't know the details of that, but it does affect things. Straight monthly the Civic is $435.84/mo all-in (4 years) which puts it directly in line with pretty much everything else. This also would be before negotiations, so you'd think that could be a bit lower yet.

Civic: $435.84/mo X 24 = $10,460 (but would continue another 2 years). I'm not sure how this calculates bi-weekly because the dealer told me some months I have to pay 3 times.

ATS: $420/mo / 24 = $10,800 + $980 = $11,780

ATS has free oil changes and maintenance, Civic would have free oil changes only if I pay the dealer for their "recommended maintenance", so I would be paying $80/oil change that I wouldn't be on the ATS. Civic will be better on gas though so it might balance out over 2 years. Civic has 20K allownace, ATS has 15K, so that is a factor as well provided I get anywhere near either.

Overall slightly higher cost on the ATS, no doubt, BUT you get a lot of car. I need to decide what is more important.

The problem with buying it out at the end means I have to take care of it in terms of detailing it, paint protection, possibly buying 3M to save the hood, washing it carefully to avoid swirls, parking it far away to avoid door dings, etc. All of that I don't have to worry about on a lease if I'm not buying it out. I do think there would be potential to make a few grand back at the end of the Civic lease - so that is a plus. The downside is that it requires significantly more ownership effort, as well as the effort of selling it at the end.

As you point out, I guess it comes down to a better deal vs cheaper.

[ExtraSlow]

You haven't said one thing that makes me think you like the Caddy more than the honda.
Fuck finances and image and "getting more car". Get a car you like.