Questions about carbon tax perceptions.

[Seth1968]

Many people including myself, think that the carbon tax is an obvious sham to take more money from us. It will do nothing to reduce emissions in any relevant or significant manner. Especially since Canada (let alone Alberta), contributes basically nothing to global emissions. With that said, that's just the tip of the iceberg in regards to this sham.

Do you think that the people who support a carbon tax disagree with the above? Do you think that they're even aware of that one fact?

Do you support the carbon tax, and if so, why?

[jacky4566]

There is already a thread about this.

In a nutshell. Carbon tax is good. Our implementation sucks because its more wealth re-distribution than carbon penalty.

[jwslam]

I've made this opinion many times before:

The biggest chunk of carbon tax should be something like a $10,000 tax for anyone found at-fault in a rush hour vehicle collision (notice how I don't call it accident) as they have directly attributed to hundreds of cars idling for long periods of time.

As for the existing system, yes it's bull.

[Feruk]

Every time I've heard the argument that we contribute nothing to global emissions, it's immediately pointed out that Alberta produces over 3 million barrels of oil equivalent a day. The only reason your "fact" is valid is because the oil we produce is burned elsewhere. It's like saying the only important part of a car is the left front tire and the rest can be ignored. If we ever changed the CO2 rating criteria to point of (fuel) production rather than consumption, Alberta would look like one of the worst places on the planet. You may choose to ignore that and keep your head in the turtle shell, but the rest of the world doesn't, hence why we've had to have PR campaigns for decades.

What we have in Alberta isn't a "carbon tax", it's a PST combined with some wealth redistribution for the poorest. Do I support that? Hell no.

What I do support is the idea of a carbon tax where the proceeds do NOT go into government coffers, but are rather redistributed to companies or universities that do research into green technologies. We've got one of the most educated populations on the planet in Calgary. I'd like to see a fund that creates a strong green economy in Alberta so that in 50 years our kids aren't like those idiot coal miners in the USA who think their jobs are coming back under Trump.

[Seth1968]

Originally posted by jacky4566
There is already a thread about this.

In a nutshell. Carbon tax is good. Our implementation sucks because its more wealth re-distribution than carbon penalty.

There's already a thread about cars too. What's your point? :)

I wanted to start a thread which specifically asks the supporters "why".

[HiTempguy1]

Originally posted by Feruk
. If we ever changed the CO2 rating criteria to point of (fuel) production rather than consumption, Alberta would look like one of the worst places on the planet. .

That would be stupid, because Alberta producing oil doesn't cause the emissions, and "phasing out the oil sands" would not change global oil consumption.

So yea, everyone else does it because it places the blame on someone who can't remotely fight back, for something they aren't doing.

Even BCs carbon tax has become a general revenue grab with NONE of the revenue neutral policy it was supposed to have.

[Seth1968]

Originally posted by Feruk


What I do support is the idea of a carbon tax where the proceeds do NOT go into government coffers, but are rather redistributed to companies or universities that do research into green technologies.

That's a noble notion, and something I could get on board with if it actually had any real benefit. But I suspect that our money will either not go toward that, or end up in the hands of green government and corporate corruption. AKA the toilet.

[Tik-Tok]

Isn't that the plan though? Nearly 1/2 the levy is supposedly (believe it when I see it) going to renewable energy projects?

[suntan]

Why not just spend the entire proceeds on electric cars for everyone?

[Antonito]

Originally posted by Seth1968
Many people including myself, think that the carbon tax is an obvious sham to take more money from us. It will do nothing to reduce emissions in any relevant or significant manner. Especially since Canada (let alone Alberta), contributes basically nothing to global emissions. With that said, that's just the tip of the iceberg in regards to this sham.

Do you think that the people who support a carbon tax disagree with the above? Do you think that they're even aware of that one fact?

Do you support the carbon tax, and if so, why? this brings up an interesting question about how your mind works: if the supporters (excluding the people who drafted the legislation and/or benefit monetarily from it) know it's a sham then what would their motivations be?

[Mitsu3000gt]

What about vehicle emissions testing? I always thought 80% of the vehicle pollution was made by 20% of the cars or something like that - so many non-roadworthy beaters running around out there spewing giant clouds of blue smoke.

[JustinL]

Originally posted by Mitsu3000gt
What about vehicle emissions testing? I always thought 80% of the vehicle pollution was made by 20% of the cars or something like that - so many non-roadworthy beaters running around out there spewing giant clouds of blue smoke.

Seems like a different topic no? Carbon tax applies to CO2 emissions, which 100% of internal combustion cars create. Emissions testing is more for pollutants that reduce air quality. CO2 emissions are directly proportional to the amount of fuel burned.

[jwslam]

Originally posted by Feruk
If we ever changed the CO2 rating criteria to point of (fuel) production rather than consumption, Alberta would look like one of the worst places on the planet. You may choose to ignore that and keep your head in the turtle shell, but the rest of the world doesn't, hence why we've had to have PR campaigns for decades.

What we have in Alberta isn't a "carbon tax", it's a PST combined with some wealth redistribution for the poorest. Do I support that? Hell no.
So using your definition of the "carbon tax", similarly GST should be paid for by the provider of goods and services, not the end consumer. Of course that wouldn't change the end price of goods, but on the consumer side I would be paying the exact shelf price for all goods and services rather than having to math things.

[Seth1968]

Originally posted by Antonito
this brings up an interesting question about how your mind works: if the supporters (excluding the people who drafted the legislation and/or benefit monetarily from it) know it's a sham then what would their motivations be?

Note that my questions took into account the possibility that they know the tax won't affect carbon output, but may still agree with the tax for other reasons. For example, the alleged green technology funding.

[FraserB]

Originally posted by Antonito
this brings up an interesting question about how your mind works: if the supporters (excluding the people who drafted the legislation and/or benefit monetarily from it) know it's a sham then what would their motivations be?

Most likely supporting due to receiving the "rebate" cheques from the government.

I'd be that if you did a poll that asked if you received a cheque and if you supported the tax, both answers would be very closely related.


Originally posted by Mitsu3000gt
What about vehicle emissions testing? I always thought 80% of the vehicle pollution was made by 20% of the cars or something like that - so many non-roadworthy beaters running around out there spewing giant clouds of blue smoke.

We'll never see mechanical or emissions testing that can take cars off the road. People would see it as a war on the lower income segment of the population.

[jwslam]

Originally posted by FraserB
Most likely supporting due to receiving the "rebate" cheques from the government.

I'd be that if you did a poll that asked if you received a cheque and if you supported the tax, both answers would be very closely related.
isn't that everything?

Do I support it: yes
Does it benefit me: also yes

[Seth1968]

I suspect that the increased costs on just about everything will far exceed a rebate.

[Antonito]

Originally posted by Seth1968


Note that my questions took into account the possibility that they know the tax won't affect carbon output, but may still agree with the tax for other reasons. For example, the alleged green technology funding.
It wouldn't be a sham if the technology gets funded


Originally posted by FraserB


Most likely supporting due to receiving the "rebate" cheques from the government.

I'd be that if you did a poll that asked if you received a cheque and if you supported the tax, both answers would be very closely related Till now I'd completely missed that there would be household rebates. Yeah that'd be a good motivator

Edit: now that I've done some googling, it's not much of a rebate, but I can see a few people being in favour simply for the check

[Seth1968]

Originally posted by Antonito

It wouldn't be a sham if the technology gets funded



Not by necessity. The devil is in the details.

IMO, it will be handed out like candy with no accountability, and basically squandered.

[Bytem3]

What I really want to know is the cost of administration for this tax

In other words, for every $1000 in tax that's collected, what percentage goes towards the infrastructure just to collect and redistribute the money... Is it 10%, 50%?

NDP job creation at its finest

[Seth1968]

Originally posted by Bytem3

NDP job creation at its finest

Governments need to stop this ridiculous notion of job creation. It has, and always will be a dismal failure. Instead, they need to create an environment that's attractive for small businesses and large corporations and then get the hell out of the way.

[Gestalt]

The Carbon tax is interesting. I enjoy it because it shows the liars on both sides equally.

First, the supporters. Claiming it lowers pollution and stuff. Obvious lie, it Targets middle class Canadians. It's a tax. We've all had LED bulbs, programmable thermostats, and our cars are already bought and paid for. It's not like 4 cents a litre is going to make people sell their minivan or SUV and go out an buy a Tesla. My friend with kids aren't about to put the minivan away, and take their kids to school, soccer, swimming and so on on public transit.

It's absurd.

Then, the nay sayers. I can't stand the hipocorisy, and lies, raising prices beyond anything the carbon tax could be responsible for. Over exaggerated claims of how its killing Alberta, jobs and so forth, spiralling into their version of proof that climate change is take.

Normal people with a brain, recognize it for what it is. A minor tax grab without much real consequence either way. But a tax grab all the same. An insult.

I also don't appreciate that our next door neighbor couch potatoe milking the system already, got a rebate check, even though he pays no utilities, and doesn't own a car. That's a kick in the nuts for working people.

[rage2]

Originally posted by suntan
Why not just spend the entire proceeds on electric cars for everyone?
This (to a degree). I have no clue why we don't have electric car rebates here especially now that we have a carbon tax. Almost every province has this. The Chevy Bolt is a hilarious $1000/month lease here, which is more than my GLA45. :nut:

[KRyn]

Originally posted by rage2

This (to a degree). I have no clue why we don't have electric car rebates here especially now that we have a carbon tax. Almost every province has this.

I will just leave this here...

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/porsche-918-spyder-ontario-rebate-1.3551689

[ExtraSlow]

If the carbon tax is a good thing, it should be MUCH higher. If it's not, it should be zero. What it is right now, as Gestalt said, is an insult.

[tonytiger55]

I don’t agree with the carbon tax at all.
Man has burned some form of carbon for heating & cooking for hundreds if not thousands of years.
Carbon is a issue, but is tax really the most effective way to address a global problem? One could almost say burning carbon is a human right.

As a immigrant from the UK I don’t see how the carbon tax makes sense. Canada is not just a country, it’s a continent. The sheer size of this country still blows my mind. Yet the population is still around a measly 30 Million spread out. Given the cold temperatures, short growing season and spread of population you need access to cheap energy. This is for heating and transportation of goods (i.e. food) and keeping economy going.

If you start taxing goods, this just gets passed onto the consumer.
If the argument is that we need to start driving more smaller fuel efficient vehicles or move closer to work.. its not so simple as that. I wish I could live closer but the economics of it mean I am unable to afford to or buy a new vehicle. You can’t just do that on a whim.
Electric cars might be the future but what about plumbers, electricians..? When you call a trades person or someone who is in a industry that uses commercial vehicles. Are they going to turn up in a electric van or electric pickup truck. I have not seen any on the road here. What are the alternatives for them? None. Petroleum engines are here for a while when you factor in the energy density of the fuel and how versatile it is.

Taxing me then setting up some sort of new body that comes into my home to advise me on LED bulbs is bullshit. Why not just do what Europe has done and phased out the standard lightbulb?
It’s just the old tax and spend. Its easy to spend other people’s money. How is this going to reduce carbon? If I said give me your some of your money and we will reduce carbon. If you ask HOW and I say I don’t know but we will figure something out, would you not tell me to go piss off? It’s the same with this. EXACTLY how is this going to reduce carbon?
The government should be setting the conditions so green alternatives can come and grow.

I had a dumb ass argument with a floaty neo fascist liberal. She started going on about out how the carbon tax is good and how we are all going to start growing our food and things will pop up all over Calgary. I tried to explain to her the weather gets to -20c at times and I work for a grocery chain. There is one warehouse in Calgary and supply chain does not work like that. She started to get angry and uppity.

I read a book by Guru Charan Das 17 years ago about India’s economy. Some of the things he wrote about stand true today. The government should not dictate, but set the conditions and let market forces drive the innovation and change. Not the other way around.

Its not a minor tax grab. Taxes always go up.

Canadas population base is slow low and the country so big this that this carbon tax is as effective in as a mouse playing a trumpet at a grand funeral.

[Feruk]

Originally posted by FraserB
We'll never see mechanical or emissions testing that can take cars off the road. People would see it as a war on the lower income segment of the population.
Paris has banned any car built before 1997. Several other European cities have outright banned any car that uses gasoline or diesel by 2025.


Originally posted by Tik-Tok
Isn't that the plan though? Nearly 1/2 the levy is supposedly (believe it when I see it) going to renewable energy projects?
I believe it's all going to general revenue right now.

[dirtsniffer]

Originally posted by Feruk

Paris has banned any car built before 1997. Several other European cities have outright banned any car that uses gasoline or diesel by 2025.


I believe it's all going to general revenue right now.

none is going to general revenue, roughly half is for rebates for poor people and the other half is given to green projects.

[Xtrema]

Originally posted by KRyn


I will just leave this here...

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/porsche-918-spyder-ontario-rebate-1.3551689

Not a bad thing.

Currently, their $14K incentive means you can drive away with a Leaf for $16K.

Battery or not, it's a pretty good $16K car.

Our carbon tax isn't revenue neutral. And having the tax and not even put a dent in the deficit? WTF?

[suntan]

Originally posted by KRyn


I will just leave this here...

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/porsche-918-spyder-ontario-rebate-1.3551689 Wynne is a fucking moron. Ontario is led by a complete imbecile.

[rage2]

Originally posted by Xtrema
And having the tax and not even put a dent in the deficit? WTF?
What's hilarious is that oil revenues went up due to better pricing and yet the deficit got bigger than expected. So if it wasn't for oil, it would've looked WAY worse. :rofl:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/alberta-deficit-projection-grows-despite-prediction-of-increased-energy-royalties/article34122632/

[suntan]

Well yeah they're spending like drunken sailors.

[Gestalt]

We don't have a spending problem, it's an income problem unfortunately.

[dirtsniffer]

Hah get real. Oil could be $150 and there would still be a deficit.

[Seth1968]

Originally posted by Gestalt
We don't have a spending problem, it's an income problem unfortunately.

Did I miss backwards day again?

[zhao]

Originally posted by Feruk
Every time I've heard the argument that we contribute nothing to global emissions, it's immediately pointed out that Alberta produces over 3 million barrels of oil equivalent a day. The only reason your "fact" is valid is because the oil we produce is burned elsewhere. It's like saying the only important part of a car is the left front tire and the rest can be ignored. If we ever changed the CO2 rating criteria to point of (fuel) production rather than consumption, Alberta would look like one of the worst places on the planet. You may choose to ignore that and keep your head in the turtle shell, but the rest of the world doesn't, hence why we've had to have PR campaigns for decades.

What we have in Alberta isn't a "carbon tax", it's a PST combined with some wealth redistribution for the poorest. Do I support that? Hell no.

What I do support is the idea of a carbon tax where the proceeds do NOT go into government coffers, but are rather redistributed to companies or universities that do research into green technologies. We've got one of the most educated populations on the planet in Calgary. I'd like to see a fund that creates a strong green economy in Alberta so that in 50 years our kids aren't like those idiot coal miners in the USA who think their jobs are coming back under Trump.

Your argument is as logical as charging gun manufacturers for murder, or blaming McDonald's for someone eating 6000 calories a day and getting fat.

[16hypen3sp]

I want my cheaper LED lights and what not. And the rebate better be very visible and at the point of sale.

None of this buy now, mail in a rebate bullshit.

NDP says those details are releasing next month. They'll probably fuck that up too.

[suntan]

Originally posted by Gestalt
We don't have a spending problem, it's an income problem unfortunately. I'm constantly impressed by your stupidity.

[bjstare]

Originally posted by Gestalt
We don't have a spending problem, it's an income problem unfortunately.

It's sad that people who are as stupid as you have the power to vote.

[Amysicle]

.

[Gestalt]

Originally posted by dirtsniffer
Hah get real. Oil could be $150 and there would still be a deficit.

It was close and you are right. , because we don't get the $150. We got $15 after incentives and rebates.

Income problem.

[Gestalt]

Originally posted by cjblair


It's sad that people who are as stupid as you have the power to vote.

Let's say you own a car. Your are broke, so you don't change the oil. You are creating a much worse problem down the road.

Or you own a house, pipe srpings a leak, you ignore it because you can't afford to fix and maintain. Again, disaster down the road.

This is exactly why we find ourselves in this mess. The problem is on the income side.

The province exploded in population, and "maintenance, and costs, but we did not keep up with the income needed for these additional population andcosts.

Cutting spending only passes the buck, and makes things much more expensive in the future.

[dirtsniffer]

What does maintainance and repairs have to do with gross overspending? Just cause my car has an oil leak doesn't mean I should replace the engine.

[R154]

Just put him on ignore and go on about your day. I found that in several posts, he likes to argue for the sake of argument.

Nothing to gain here, he's just a typical meme/quote fanatic that believes the David Wolfe reality.

He doesn't have any real substantiated thoughts or proof to levy. He's a bitch that can't defend his own self serving opinions.

Not worth it.

[Gestalt]

Originally posted by dirtsniffer
What does maintainance and repairs have to do with gross overspending? Just cause my car has an oil leak doesn't mean I should replace the engine.
Are we living oppoluantly?

Our roads, education, health, policing is all mediocore. Our politicians dont live in gold plated palaces.

As population rose, costs went up, and we have not kept up. Easterners taking money home. Foreign companies taking money out that isn't spent here. low taxes and royalties.

I really don't see this overspending you speak of. I see a ship with a hole in it, plugged with duck tape instead of repaired properly.

[zhao]

Originally posted by Gestalt

Are we living oppoluantly?

Our roads, education, health, policing is all mediocore. Our politicians dont live in gold plated palaces.

As population rose, costs went up, and we have not kept up. Easterners taking money home. Foreign companies taking money out that isn't spent here. low taxes and royalties.

I really don't see this overspending you speak of. I see a ship with a hole in it, plugged with duck tape instead of repaired properly.

Ignoring everything else he has posted, I agree with this, as long as he is not talking about raising taxes.

This province, and this country has mismanaged it's income potential.

If we simplify it in the extreme it comes down to we give our resources away for free, in exchange for a promise of some shitty jobs that get filled by people who don't even live here.

We are very similar to an African country in that respect. Foreign companies come in, rape, and we're all happy while they are doing that because things are 10% better.... but when things go south and they pull out, we are fucked wondering what to do now.

Alberta has oil, and BC doesn't, and when you look at our government run or maintained entities you'd think it was the other way around.

[Maxt]

Originally posted by Gestalt



Our roads, education, health, policing is all mediocore.
Really....:rofl:

[suntan]

Originally posted by Gestalt

Are we living oppoluantly?

???

https://www.oppodigital.com/blu-ray-udp-203/images/blu-ray-udp-203.jpg

[J-hop]

Originally posted by jwslam

isn't that everything?

Do I support it: yes
Does it benefit me: also yes

Are you saying monetarily?

is it actually benefiting you? What's your net gain, 20 bucks?

I don't think anyone is benefiting monetarily other than the 18 y/o living at home with parents that cover their gas money.

[zhao]

Originally posted by Maxt

Really....:rofl:

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl: You really need to get out more

Our roads are shit, absolute shit, shit maintenance, shit design, shit planning for the future. We literally build bridges to take the traffic capacity of today with zero room for expansion (it is cheaper to build a new bridge than to add a single lane to an existing bridge), and then add 100000 people living on the other side of the bridge and wonder why it jams up. We do the same thing with choke points. We under build roads for capacity for entry to neighbourhoods.

Our healthcare is soso at best.

Education isn't anything amazing.

Policing. Minor crimes have zero chance of being solved unless you do your own policing and beg the police to arrest the guy, and then they will only show up 4 hours to see if he's still where you said he was. car stolen? house broken in to? Business robbed? vandalized whatever? hit and run? The police do not care and you are annoying them.

[Maxt]

Originally posted by zhao


:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl: You really need to get out more

Our roads are shit, absolute shit, shit maintenance, shit design, shit planning for the future. We literally build bridges to take the traffic capacity of today with zero room for expansion (it is cheaper to build a new bridge than to add a single lane to an existing bridge), and then add 100000 people living on the other side of the bridge and wonder why it jams up. We do the same thing with choke points. We under build roads for capacity for entry to neighbourhoods.

Our healthcare is soso at best.

Education isn't anything amazing.

Policing. Minor crimes have zero chance of being solved unless you do your own policing and beg the police to arrest the guy, and then they will only show up 4 hours to see if he's still where you said he was. car stolen? house broken in to? Business robbed? vandalized whatever? hit and run? The police do not care and you are annoying them.

whoosh.....

[zhao]

Originally posted by Maxt


whoosh.....

Plop....

[rx7_turbo2]

Originally posted by Maxt
whoosh.....
You're dealing with a guy with a 136-138 IQ, jokes have to be pretty advanced for him to get them ;)

[triplep]

It is interesting that Alberta was one of the first provinces to introduce a carbon levy back in July of 2007. It was called the Specified Gas Emitters Regulation which covered about 45% of all emissions.

Basically it was targeted at facilities that emitted more than 100,000 tonnes of CO2e and they had to reduce these emissions.

This new carbon levy is nothing more than a tax grab... I think it is funny how the government says it is revenue neutral, when in fact it is their way of saying that they will just spend all the money they collect from it which does not make it revenue neutral. A true revenue neutral policy would be if it meant that the revenues collected from this specific program decreased the amount of revenue collected from a different program (say income taxes). Then it could be considered revenue neutral. Unfortunately, the general population think that by the government spending all the money makes it somehow revenue neutral.

[Gestalt]

Originally posted by zhao


:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl: You really need to get out more

Our roads are shit, absolute shit, shit maintenance, shit design, shit planning for the future. We literally build bridges to take the traffic capacity of today with zero room for expansion (it is cheaper to build a new bridge than to add a single lane to an existing bridge), and then add 100000 people living on the other side of the bridge and wonder why it jams up. We do the same thing with choke points. We under build roads for capacity for entry to neighbourhoods.

Our healthcare is soso at best.

Education isn't anything amazing.

Policing. Minor crimes have zero chance of being solved unless you do your own policing and beg the police to arrest the guy, and then they will only show up 4 hours to see if he's still where you said he was. car stolen? house broken in to? Business robbed? vandalized whatever? hit and run? The police do not care and you are annoying them.

Everything here is true. A family member is going through a Cancer diagnosis and treatment, and the lack of moving is shocking. A snail could crawl to California before reasonable action takes place.

For a province as resource rich as Alberta, it's seems sad we are mediocre at best while remaining in perpetual deficit.

[16hypen3sp]

Originally posted by zhao


:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl: You really need to get out more

Our roads are shit, absolute shit, shit maintenance, shit design, shit planning for the future. We literally build bridges to take the traffic capacity of today with zero room for expansion (it is cheaper to build a new bridge than to add a single lane to an existing bridge), and then add 100000 people living on the other side of the bridge and wonder why it jams up. We do the same thing with choke points. We under build roads for capacity for entry to neighbourhoods.

Our healthcare is soso at best.

Education isn't anything amazing.

Policing. Minor crimes have zero chance of being solved unless you do your own policing and beg the police to arrest the guy, and then they will only show up 4 hours to see if he's still where you said he was. car stolen? house broken in to? Business robbed? vandalized whatever? hit and run? The police do not care and you are annoying them.

Our healthcare system sucks money at an alarming rate. It has grown into a boondoggle. A monstrosity.

That's just one issue, the next is education.

Until costs come down in those two areas, everything else will continue to suffer.

I myself would like to see a true two tier healthcare system similar to Euro models.

[Gestalt]

2 tier is for broke, underdeveloped, overpopulated second rate countries with inequality problems.

It has no place in a resource rich, underpopulated province like ab.

We also do not have the raw ingredients for a second tier, without further degrading our first tier.

Healtcare is expensive. No way around it, and calculated per person, we have reasonable costs. But we dont spend enough to make it number 1. Because we dont have the income.

[16hypen3sp]

We raise taxes, guess where the revenue goes; into healthcare and education.
Healthcare is broken. Throwing more money at it is solving nothing.

[J-hop]

Originally posted by 16hypen3sp
We raise taxes, guess where the revenue goes; into healthcare and education.
Healthcare is broken. Throwing more money at it is solving nothing.

I'd counter that with the fact that yes there is inherent waste in the system but increasing funding does allow more dollars to trickle down to the end user.

You can ignorantly and coldly say we need to pull funding from healthcare and they will figure out how to run more efficiently as a result. There may be some truth to that but how long does the cancer patient have to wait for them to figure out how to provide the same level of care with less budget???

What good old drunky did to alberta's healthcare system is a good example of why that doesn't work.

IMO pulling funding from healthcare is never the right answer....

[ZenOps]

Originally posted by Gestalt
The Carbon tax is interesting. I enjoy it because it shows the liars on both sides equally.

First, the supporters. Claiming it lowers pollution and stuff. Obvious lie, it Targets middle class Canadians. It's a tax. We've all had LED bulbs, programmable thermostats, and our cars are already bought and paid for. It's not like 4 cents a litre is going to make people sell their minivan or SUV and go out an buy a Tesla. My friend with kids aren't about to put the minivan away, and take their kids to school, soccer, swimming and so on on public transit.

https://www.tesla.com/en_CA/models-charging#/calculator

Tesla is compelling, if Calgary can maintain a 4 or 5 cent per kwh coal power plant electricity rate the numbers for a 50 kilometer trip being 55 cents using a standard three prong outlet overnight charge looks good to me.

Its even more efficient if using 240 volt plugs (and supercharge stations) 42 cents for that 50 kilometer day trip.

And the fact that an electrical engine is pretty much the simplest piece of technology on the planet compared to a combustion engine which is one of the most complex (and most expensive to fix) If it took off, car repair shops would easily have to layoff 3x more people than now.

As long as the battery works in our climate that is. Does a Tesla make sense in Hawaii (36 US cents per kwh) NO. Does it make sense in equivalent 3 US cents per kwh Alberta, sign me up.

Germans are smart people, they invented the combustion engine. They are now banning it by 2030.

[spikerS]

This is one of those times that I think the USA got it right.

If you want to target pollutants, target the manufacturers.

The states did it and mandated better fuel economy and cleaner emissions on vehicles available for sale in the states by a certain deadline. Any vehicles at that point that could not meet those targets would become ineligible for import, or if made domestically, unable to be sold.

The same can be done for other areas, such as coal power plants, steel manufacturing, whatever. Make the manufacturers adapt and adopt newer "green" technologies. Those that do adapt may even be able to undercut those that don't as processes may become way more efficient, and those that don't/won't adapt and face fines will become more expensive to the end base consumer.

Putting a consumption tax on the end users changes nothing. As mentioned before, my buddy isn't going to suddenly sell his 2.0L motorcycle and buy a vespa, nor am I going to sell my truck to buy a ford tranit. This tax scheme will not change end user behaviors as it is not punitive enough. Change the gas tax to $0.40 a liter increase, and then you will start to see meaningful change, but just look to Vancouver or the Maritimes to see how even that doesn't change anything.

Force the change at the point of origin or manufacture, and THAT will have a 100% penetration into the general public and make a FAR better impact.

As it is now, it is just a redistribution of wealth that does nothing for the environment.

And just as a side note, the Ford EcoBoost is a direct result of the CAFE legislation enacted in the states for better fuel economy and emissions. And you can't tell me that it is a shitty engine. Also, the huge uptick in Hybrid and electric vehicles are a direct result as well. And these are all vehicles that are talked about with great excitement in the community and in the public.

[suntan]

Well yes. As stated before, the NDP are fucking idiots.

[spikerS]

Originally posted by suntan
Well yes. As stated before, the NDP are fucking idiots.

While I do share that sentiment, I believe the carbon tax should be implemented at a federal level, not a provincial one, and thus it should be: The Liberals are fucking idiots for telling the provinces to put it in place.

[Feruk]

Originally posted by zhao
Your argument is as logical as charging gun manufacturers for murder, or blaming McDonald's for someone eating 6000 calories a day and getting fat.
Hang on, I never said that's the way it should go, just that we have an image issue. McDonalds also had an image issue and now sells salads and wraps because they are smart enough to deal with the image issue despite consumption not being their fault. They could've buried their head in the sand and said "blame the fatties" and I bet they'd be a lot less profitable today.

[Inzane]

Why are some people in this thread talking about air pollution and air quality in a discussion about carbon tax?

Are people confused? Don't understand the difference between CO and CO2?

Air pollution is a localized ground level health concern.

Carbon tax, carbon emission, greenhouse gas, climate change are all phrases referring to a different issue, which is the accumulation of CO2 in the upper atmosphere and its effects on global climate.

[Gestalt]

China takes cue for Trump it seems, the premier says, We Will Make our Skies Blue Again.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/china-peoples-congress-pollution-promise-1.4010722

[Inzane]

"Stay on target... stay on target...."

[ZenOps]

vcH0TAdR8FE

Begs the question, if you are going to extert that much energy to extract pollutants from the air, maybe its just better to not put it in the air to start with (or build a higher smokestack)

[bjstare]

Originally posted by Inzane
Why are some people in this thread talking about air pollution and air quality in a discussion about carbon tax?

Are people confused? Don't understand the difference between CO and CO2?

Air pollution is a localized ground level health concern.

Carbon tax, carbon emission, greenhouse gas, climate change are all phrases referring to a different issue, which is the accumulation of CO2 in the upper atmosphere and its effects on global climate.

Because the carbon tax falls under the NDP "Climate Leadership Plan", and those idiots included "clean air" in the advertising they spent our money on to try and sell us the plan.

You're right, it is a localized ground level health concern (albeit not in our province).

[Gestalt]

I think they are more the same than different. Human emissions, pollution, whatever has impacted the whole planet, from Mariana's trench, to Mercury in the oceans, carbon and polutants In he air, toxic metals on the tip of mount everest.

We are disgusting slobs. Time to shape up all around.