2016-2017 NBA Thread

[sexualbanana]

Makes me sad there hasn't been a thread started from beginning of the season, especially considering the storylines that we've had this year with a tight MVP race (and the heavy discussion around what's more important), the struggles of the Cavs, how KD has integrated into the Dubs, etc.

With 2 or 3 games left in the regular season, let's talk about the big stories. Starting with:

Where do you stand on the MVP race?
Harden
Westbrook
Lebron
Kawhi
etc.

... and why?

[GenerationX]

Westbrook's story has been incredible. IMO has less support than Harden, making crazy clutch plays.

[sexualbanana]

Originally posted by GenerationX
Westbrook's story has been incredible. IMO has less support than Harden, making crazy clutch plays.

I think in any other year, Westbrook gets the MVP. But when you have another player in Harden who is putting up near identical numbers on a team that is 3rd in the ultra-competitive West and ultimately 3rd best record in the league, it should go to the player with the better record.

It's the same debate as last year's Curry or Harden debate. Although Curry's numbers weren't as great overall, Curry was putting up insane numbers while playing a fraction of the Harden's minutes on a team that was on a record-breaking pace. In that sense, the MVP should go to the best player on the best team.

[brucebanner]

It's very sad we didn't have a thread this year, I thought about making one at the start of the season but it's always so slow haha. No one around here seems to like ball that much.

As far as the MVP race goes, I don't really think you could make a wrong choice with Westbrook, Harden, James or Leonard. I'm personally leaning towards Westbrook because numbers and carrying OKC into the playoffs. I'm not sure many thought OKC would land where they did this year with losing Durrant.

I see both sides, best player on the best team or best player on a playoff team. I side with Westbrook because I feel like Harden has a better team to play with. Really LeBron could be MVP because he's arguably more Important to the Cavs than Westbrook is to OKC. Leonard won't win because he's still "underrated".

Can't wait for playoffs to start.

Not looking forward to next year because of Lavar Ball. :banghead:

[sexualbanana]

Originally posted by bruceod


I see both sides, best player on the best team or best player on a playoff team. I side with Westbrook because I feel like Harden has a better team to play with. Really LeBron could be MVP because he's arguably more Important to the Cavs than Westbrook is to OKC. Leonard won't win because he's still "underrated".


I've never really been a fan of that argument because it's essentially penalizing a good player for being on a good team. I think it's harder to be the alpha of a team of alphas.

Also, we shouldn't forget that Harden was putting up sick numbers last year and dragged a pretty bad Rockets team into 8th place last year.

Assuming I ever had a vote, I would vote for Westbrook if OKC finished in 4th or better for home-court advantage.

Conversely, if team record is a major factor, then Lebron deserves major consideration, as he's literally carried a bad Cavs team to first place in the East - and I say that as a staunch Lebron hater.

[brucebanner]

I've never really been a fan of that argument because it's essentially penalizing a good player for being on a good team. I think it's harder to be the alpha of a team of alphas.

There's usually a clear alpha though. This year could of been different with GSW but Durrant went down. In all reality it's Curry's team though. Previous OKC years it was Durrants team. In Miami with the big 3 it was in theory Wade's team but everyone knows LeBron was alpha.


Also, we shouldn't forget that Harden was putting up sick numbers last year and dragged a pretty bad Rockets team into 8th place last year.

A team that preformed bad but should have been much better.


Assuming I ever had a vote, I would vote for Westbrook if OKC finished in 4th or better for home-court advantage.

I see your point, I lean also Westbrook's way because of the triple double average and new record too. Pretty crazy to do for a season.


Conversely, if team record is a major factor, then Lebron deserves major consideration, as he's literally carried a bad Cavs team to first place in the East - and I say that as a staunch Lebron hater.

I honestly think LeBron should win MVP. I do like him but I'm not a bandwagon fan of his. I think he's the most important player to his team in the league. He won't get the votes just because what he's does is average for him and expected.

Either way, any of those 4 guys are very deserving of the award.

[sexualbanana]

Such little interest in a really great season... This saddens me.

P.S. Burn Cavs Burn.

[jabjab]

Westbrook hands down deserves MVP. The odds were against OKC once pussy as durant left. Westbrook has carried his team into the playoffs and broken the triple double record.

Hardens success can be attributed to the coaching change but I feel he has more decent pieces around him. Here is my order of who should win MVP:

Westbrook
Leonard
Harden.

[sexualbanana]

Originally posted by bruceod

I see your point, I lean also Westbrook's way because of the triple double average and new record too. Pretty crazy to do for a season.


The counter to that is that Adams and Kanter are clearly just boxing out their guys and letting Westbrook get the rebounds, so a small case could be made that there's some stat stuffing going on. But having said that, a 30-point triple-double is insane, even with a bit of padding.

First round predictions anyone?

[jabjab]

I think the Bulls will upset the Celtics in the first round.

[sexualbanana]

Originally posted by jabjab
I think the Bulls will upset the Celtics in the first round.

From an upset potential standpoint (4-5 doesn't count), I think Celtics-Bulls has the best potential for upset. Rockets-Thunder could be an upset too, but I handicap it because it's a 3-6 matchup.

I don't think the Bulls will win though. Celtics have too many good pieces, and if the game is actually close, Stevens is too good at drawing up plays.

But speaking of Rockets-Thunder, that's going to be a fun series.

[Type_S1]

My list of top 5 MVPs in order are: Westbrook, Harden, Thomas, James, Giannis

- Westbrook is the clear MVP even though his team helped him grab easy rebounds. He did something this season only 1 other player ever has. Anyone discounting this doesn't watch or know basketball.
- Harden is a clear second. He has had one of the best statistical seasons in the modern era and lead his team to 3rd best record.
- Thomas was a beast the entire season and led his team to the best record in the East. You can't argue with how good he played. Without him the Celtics don't finish nearly as strong.
- James is James...he will likely make it to the finals again.
- Giannis had an amazing season and led a pretty brutal roster to a playoff spot. He didn't have much support and had ridiculous stats (see steals and blks).
- Leonard is overrated. I don't know why fans keep saying he's underrated. Every single analyst drools over him and he wasn't even a top 5 real or fantasy player this year.

[sexualbanana]

Originally posted by Type_S1

- Leonard is overrated. I don't know why fans keep saying he's underrated. Every single analyst drools over him and he wasn't even a top 5 real or fantasy player this year.

Kawhi's averaging over 25 ppg (9th)
1.8 spg (8th).

Pretty decent stats for someone who's 40th in minutes.

[Type_S1]

And you think that puts him in conversation to be the MVP? His points per only land him in 7th...

[sexualbanana]

Originally posted by Type_S1
And you think that puts him in conversation to be the MVP? His points per only land him in 7th...

25+ points per game while often guarding the opposing team's best 1-4 on the team with the best defensive rating in the league, leading to the 2nd best record in the league. I think he deserves to be mentioned.

9th in defensive rating (best defensive rating in the league)
9th in defensive win shares
Tied with Russ in steals

[Type_S1]

I guess we can agree to disagree. The 5 guys I mentioned I feel are way more deserving. Is there a reason you think he should fall into the top 5 over those guys?

[sexualbanana]

Originally posted by Type_S1
I guess we can agree to disagree. The 5 guys I mentioned I feel are way more deserving. Is there a reason you think he should fall into the top 5 over those guys?

I don't disagree with most of your list, but I'd add Kawhi.

Harden, Lebron, Kawhi, Westbrook and Thomas.

As I said earlier, I think winning is an important factor in MVP consideration, so I think the MVP should at least have home-court in the playoffs - eliminating Westbrook and Thomas. Don't get me wrong, I think Westbrook is crushing it this year, but I think to discount Harden because he has better pieces around him is the same as being a good player on a bad team (like Russ). Thomas is a long shot, and I wouldn't be surprised if Curry is in the top 5 vote for MVP. Thomas has averaged more PPG, but Curry averages more steals, rebounds and assists.

Realistically, it's a 3-person race for MVP between Harden, Westbrook and Lebron. Kawhi puts up good numbers, but he suffers from playing in a team/system/franchise that doesn't truly showcase his abilities, nor are there stats that truly and objectively measure his contributions on the defensive end. Arguably, that hurts Kawhi, but could help guys like Harden and Westbrook who aren't known for their defense.

I wouldn't be angry with either Harden or Lebron winning. With winning being the biggest factor in my criteria, Lebron would deserve to win. He's carrying an old and bickering Cavs team (though I would argue that is his own doing).

Harden's numbers are ridiculous and very similar to Russ' except his team has the 3rd best record in the league. That's why I think Harden should win it.

[sexualbanana]

Originally posted by jabjab
I think the Bulls will upset the Celtics in the first round.

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: Bang on so far. Good call.

Raps were a waste of time last night, and Cavs made a crazy comeback. Both unfortunate events. :cry:

[brucebanner]

Bucks are a scary team and a scary team for years to come because of their collective length. Middleton and the Greek are amazing.

I won't be surprised if the raps lose this series.


I wonder if Lance actually chirped LeBron at half, looked like he did from the highlights. :rofl:

Memphis with a big win. Man, VC is still playing well @ 40. Be nice to see that series be more than a walk in the park for the Spurs.

[colinxx235]

Originally posted by Type_S1

- Westbrook is the clear MVP even though his team helped him grab easy rebounds. He did something this season only 1 other player ever has. Anyone discounting this doesn't watch or know basketball.

- Leonard is overrated. I don't know why fans keep saying he's underrated. Every single analyst drools over him and he wasn't even a top 5 real or fantasy player this year.


I find it very interesting that you make a statement that if you don't give it to Westbrook that someone doesn't watch or know basketball. But then you make a statement disregarding Leonard as a top 5 while stating fantasy stats.

I would say anyone who watches/knows basketball is aware that Leonard is arguably/probably the 2nd best player in the league (behind LBJ who I can't stand). The guy was the 15/16 DPOY, and will finish top 3 in votes for 2017. Just based upon his defensive talents alone would put him around top 5. And then add in his offence...Up until the last month when he had a few off games he was shooting .500/.400/.900 which is an amazing line.
The guy also only averaged 1.6 fouls/game and 2.08 turnovers.
His overall efficiency and contributions to the Spurs are incredible.
He 9th in Pts/Game while playing 3-4minutes less than AD/Harden/LBJ/Lillard etc...

Those are just some of the reasons that analysts drool over him. Add in his team first attitude and everything else he brings, no brainer. I'm sure if you asked all the GMs/Coaches out there if they could pick one player in the league to start a team around for the next 10 seasons he would be in the top (LBJ is too old for this hypothetical).

[brucebanner]

Originally posted by colinxx235


Those are just some of the reasons that analysts drool over him. Add in his team first attitude and everything else he brings, no brainer. I'm sure if you asked all the GMs/Coaches out there if they could pick one player in the league to start a team around for the next 10 seasons he would be in the top (LBJ is too old for this hypothetical).


Besides Lenoard, who else do you think GM/coaches would want to pick? Your top 5 individuals to pick from?

[Type_S1]

Originally posted by colinxx235



I find it very interesting that you make a statement that if you don't give it to Westbrook that someone doesn't watch or know basketball. But then you make a statement disregarding Leonard as a top 5 while stating fantasy stats.

I would say anyone who watches/knows basketball is aware that Leonard is arguably/probably the 2nd best player in the league (behind LBJ who I can't stand). The guy was the 15/16 DPOY, and will finish top 3 in votes for 2017. Just based upon his defensive talents alone would put him around top 5. And then add in his offence...Up until the last month when he had a few off games he was shooting .500/.400/.900 which is an amazing line.
The guy also only averaged 1.6 fouls/game and 2.08 turnovers.
His overall efficiency and contributions to the Spurs are incredible.
He 9th in Pts/Game while playing 3-4minutes less than AD/Harden/LBJ/Lillard etc...

Those are just some of the reasons that analysts drool over him. Add in his team first attitude and everything else he brings, no brainer. I'm sure if you asked all the GMs/Coaches out there if they could pick one player in the league to start a team around for the next 10 seasons he would be in the top (LBJ is too old for this hypothetical).

I'm not saying he's not one of the best players and I wasn't quoting fantasy I just made the statement he wasn't a top 5 real or fantasy (as in looking at stats alone) player this year. For MVP you ask who helped his team the most get to where they are...the guys I named were more important getting their team in playoffs then Leonard in my opinion and more valuable to their teams. I would still take LBJ, Westbrook, Curry, Harden, Durant and Giannis before him if I was choosing a franchise player.

[sexualbanana]

Originally posted by bruceod
Bucks are a scary team and a scary team for years to come because of their collective length. Middleton and the Greek are amazing.


I was saying that when they drafted Maker last year (except I've had to swap out MCW and Parker).

A Maker-Giannis-Snell-Middleton-Brogdon lineup means there's 35 feet of arm spanning a 50-foot court with Brogdon having the shortest wingspan at 6'10.5"!

Those are some tight passing windows.

[max_boost]

You can give Bron the MVP every year as he's good for 30 wins but is he slowing down? Getting tired? annoyed? looking for the easy way out? He still has Kyrie and Love so Bron should stfu. He showed up last night though so props.

How about co-mvp? With the way russell plays is he gonna burn out? i love the step back jumper haha totally my style vs having to blow by guys every possession

[colinxx235]

Originally posted by bruceod



Besides Lenoard, who else do you think GM/coaches would want to pick? Your top 5 individuals to pick from?


That would be a tough one, heck even a 10 year window is probably too long, maybe chunk it to 6-8.

But the 5 guys aside from Leonard would be Davis, Westbrook, Harden, Lillard, and then I would have a tough time choosing between the Greek, Butler, Porzingis,

I'm clearly on a completely different page than Type though. Hard to say where the spurs would land without Leonard but sure as hell wouldn't be 2nd in the west.

[sexualbanana]

2 more years of Demarre Carroll. :barf: :barf: :barf:

[brucebanner]

That's why I had to ask, 10 years is a long time haha.
I'd add KAT, Wiggins, Wall, Embiid(health concerns though) among others for consideration. The league has a bunch of talent right now.


SB - I didn't get to watch the game since I'm on shift. Low scoring game but the Raps did win. Was it that bad?

I really wish they signed ATL Demarre Carroll though and not the player he seems to be now.

[sexualbanana]

Originally posted by bruceod
That's why I had to ask, 10 years is a long time haha.
I'd add KAT, Wiggins, Wall, Embiid(health concerns though) among others for consideration. The league has a bunch of talent right now.


SB - I didn't get to watch the game since I'm on shift. Low scoring game but the Raps did win. Was it that bad?

I really wish they signed ATL Demarre Carroll though and not the player he seems to be now.

He's just too slow to guard the players he's supposed to (for a $15M a year player), his shot is unreliable at best and he's been injured more often than not.

When the Raps have better options in Tucker and Powell, there's no real reason to play Carroll anymore except for the fact that you're paying him so much.

[colinxx235]

Originally posted by bruceod
That's why I had to ask, 10 years is a long time haha.
I'd add KAT, Wiggins, Wall, Embiid(health concerns though) among others for consideration. The league has a bunch of talent right now.
.

Yah Wiggins/Wall would be sitting on the outskirts I just didn't want to make it a 10-15 man list.

I think Embiid is unbelievable, but from what we've seen so far his health concerns will derail what could have been an amazing career.

I'm also a big Rose fan/now a devastated fan from everything that has transpired. Would be nice to imagine how things would have gone had he never been hurt. Or that one year in the East finals vs Miami if boozer, noah, etc would have played some damn ball instead of just watching LBJ defend Rose

[brucebanner]

Celtics And Jazz both tie their series up. Thomas has been carrying the Celtics offense all year. It's too bad he can't play D due to his size, that will continue to be the teams short coming until they address that issue.

Nice to see Gobert back on the floor, at full strength the Jazz can make a deep run.

Cavs sweep Indy. Curious if Bird blows the team up or if George forces his way out, even if he makes an all NBA team and signs that massive extension.

Houston needs just one more to wrap up the Thunder. Russ is doing Russ. Entertaining games for sure.

[sexualbanana]

Originally posted by bruceod
Celtics And Jazz both tie their series up. Thomas has been carrying the Celtics offense all year. It's too bad he can't play D due to his size, that will continue to be the teams short coming until they address that issue.


Some projections have Boston winning the draft lottery and picking up Fultz (though some say Ball), which means they'll either try to move Thomas for another pick, or he'll be dealt at the deadline next year.

[brucebanner]

Originally posted by sexualbanana


Some projections have Boston winning the draft lottery and picking up Fultz (though some say Ball), which means they'll either try to move Thomas for another pick, or he'll be dealt at the deadline next year.

It'll be interesting to see what Boston does. There's no doubt Thomas is fantastic scorer but come playoff time, they can't hide him in a series long enough to actually be a threat to win it all.

Edit: who's the most talented 3 in the draft, Josh Jackson? They could go that route too. Regardless of what Ainge decides to do, they have "problems" that any GM would like to have.

[sexualbanana]

I don't know about you but I've enjoyed watching the Raps-Bucks series now that Powell has been in the starting lineup and having a huge impact. It's fun knowing that they got Powell as a sweetener in a trade for Vasquez. The meat of the trade, Vasquez for a 1st-rounder, is already pretty sick. Now throw in Powell who was a 2nd round sweetener that year, and Masai wins that trade by a fucking landslide.

THEN you turn the 1st-rounder you got in the trade and flip him in the Ibaka trade.

I'm pretty sure Ujiri has some dirt on the other GMs around the league.

This trade, in addition to the one where he robbed the Knicks of a 1st-rounder for Bargnani, is so one-sided that it's hard to imagine how he convinced the other side to say yes.

[colinxx235]

Originally posted by Type_S1


I'm not saying he's not one of the best players and I wasn't quoting fantasy I just made the statement he wasn't a top 5 real or fantasy (as in looking at stats alone) player this year. For MVP you ask who helped his team the most get to where they are...the guys I named were more important getting their team in playoffs then Leonard in my opinion and more valuable to their teams. I would still take LBJ, Westbrook, Curry, Harden, Durant and Giannis before him if I was choosing a franchise player.



So just out of curiosity, if you've watched the playoffs so far, care to change your stance on Kawhi?
Guy went beast mode first two series and since he's left in game 1 the spurs are now -59 with him off the court vs warriors.

But hey... he's overrated :rofl: :rofl:

[brucebanner]

So much for a good series out of Spurs and Warriors. Kawhi was the only one going to make that a series as shown in game one.

I bet the league makes harsher rules in the off-season for those type of close outs.

LeBron still doing LeBron things. Looking forward to the finals.

Celtics #1 pick. Hayward didn't make an all-nba team. Interesting off season.

[sexualbanana]

Cavs are paying for some really questionable front office moves. I'm not saying that there were any silver bullet solutions that would've helped their cause, but signing guys like Deron Williams and Dahntay Jones was definitely going in the wrong direction.

[max_boost]

Can the Cavs get back into the series? KD Finals MVP?

Will the Warriors split apart or you think they can stay together and win not 1 not 2 not 3 not 4 not 5 not 6 not 7 I'm being serious here....lol

[colinxx235]

Cavs couldn't get much else, they already carry the most expensive roster in the NBA and the luxury tax will start to pile on very hard.

As for GSW someone is going to have to take a huge pay cut or a few collectively. I'd be shocked if Igoudala wasn't gone at the end of season cause he will get offered way more than GSW can afford and isn't one of the core 4 (KD, Curry, Klay, Draymond).
And then the next step is why wouldn't Curry demand the super contract for everything he has done. Winning is nice but I'm sure getting that 200mil contract is hard to pass up.

Cavs probably wouldn't have won last year if Curry had been healthy and the Green suspension. And when you add the 2nd/3rd best player in the NBA to the roster that probably should have beat the Cavs 4-1/2 last year... well you're witnessing the results. See if going to the home crowd gets kyrie, JR, shump playing as they really need those guys to step up if they expect to win/not get swept. Otherwise so far GSW has proven they can definitely contain LBJ on the one end, and in the attack zone they have too much power. KD game 1 was ruthless

[sexualbanana]

Originally posted by colinxx235
Cavs couldn't get much else, they already carry the most expensive roster in the NBA and the luxury tax will start to pile on very hard.

As for GSW someone is going to have to take a huge pay cut or a few collectively. I'd be shocked if Igoudala wasn't gone at the end of season cause he will get offered way more than GSW can afford and isn't one of the core 4 (KD, Curry, Klay, Draymond).
And then the next step is why wouldn't Curry demand the super contract for everything he has done. Winning is nice but I'm sure getting that 200mil contract is hard to pass up.

Cavs probably wouldn't have won last year if Curry had been healthy and the Green suspension. And when you add the 2nd/3rd best player in the NBA to the roster that probably should have beat the Cavs 4-1/2 last year... well you're witnessing the results. See if going to the home crowd gets kyrie, JR, shump playing as they really need those guys to step up if they expect to win/not get swept. Otherwise so far GSW has proven they can definitely contain LBJ on the one end, and in the attack zone they have too much power. KD game 1 was ruthless

True, but they put themselves in salary cap hell with some pretty tough contracts. Tristan wasn't a max player when he signed that contract and arguably still isn't a max player now despite the explosion in cap space that resulted in a A LOT of players earning max. But really, I was referring to their dropping of Liggins in favour of signing Dahntay Jones just before game 82. Again, I'm not saying Liggins is the answer to all of the Cavs' woes, but it at least gave them a long and athletic perimeter defender to take some pressure of Kyrie.

Curry's kind of an interesting free agent case. His family has money and he's one of a handful of players whom, I think, shouldn't be taking max because they make way more in endorsements and other endeavours off court. Not to mention that staying with the Warriors gives him a shot at greatness that we haven't seen since the 96 Bulls - a greatness that he has a shot at surpassing, if he stays.

The Dubs, to their credit, have Green and Thompson locked up for 2 more years. KD is in the same boat as Curry in which I don't think they should be taking their respective max offers (well, KD has a player option, but he'll opt out if he wants more). KD left OKC because he didn't like the style of play there, and has been amazing in the Warriors' system. There's really only 1 other team that plays a similar style and doesn't rely as heavily on iso-style basketball, and that's San Antonio. With Kawhi there, he's not likely to go there.

[max_boost]

https://www.si.com/nba/2017/06/05/kevin-durant-warriors-cavaliers-open-letter-lebron-james

Good article

[sexualbanana]

Originally posted by max_boost
https://www.si.com/nba/2017/06/05/kevin-durant-warriors-cavaliers-open-letter-lebron-james

Good article

I only agree with a very small portion of that op-ed.

[max_boost]

Can GS do it tonight? No way the Cavs shoot like that again right?

Bron will be 3-5 in the Finals so can forget about the GOAT talk hehe

[jabjab]

people were counting out the Cavs last year when it was 3-1, you just never know. If Cavs somehow win tonight, this series is going to 7 games.

[sexualbanana]

people were counting out the Cavs last year when it was 3-1, you just never know. If Cavs somehow win tonight, this series is going to 7 games.

True. But we shouldn't forget that GSW still put up 111 and, as sloppy as some of the rotations were, game 4 had a very heavy reliance on Kyrie discovering God Mode and a lot clutching and grabbing on Curry (really, re-watch and see how Curry's getting hugged by Jefferson).

The Cavs outplayed the Warriors on Friday night, but I don't think the disparity was as bad as the score indicated. The score was just the result of the Cavs hitting an incredible amount of 3's and, as good as the Cavs are at it, GSW is the better shooting team.

The alternate scenario is that the Cavs really are THAT bored, and collectively decided to tank 3 games before finally turning it on just for the drama.

[hurrdurr]

True, but they put themselves in salary cap hell with some pretty tough contracts. Tristan wasn't a max player when he signed that contract and arguably still isn't a max player now despite the explosion in cap space that resulted in a A LOT of players earning max. But really, I was referring to their dropping of Liggins in favour of signing Dahntay Jones just before game 82. Again, I'm not saying Liggins is the answer to all of the Cavs' woes, but it at least gave them a long and athletic perimeter defender to take some pressure of Kyrie.

Curry's kind of an interesting free agent case. His family has money and he's one of a handful of players whom, I think, shouldn't be taking max because they make way more in endorsements and other endeavours off court. Not to mention that staying with the Warriors gives him a shot at greatness that we haven't seen since the 96 Bulls - a greatness that he has a shot at surpassing, if he stays.

The Dubs, to their credit, have Green and Thompson locked up for 2 more years. KD is in the same boat as Curry in which I don't think they should be taking their respective max offers (well, KD has a player option, but he'll opt out if he wants more). KD left OKC because he didn't like the style of play there, and has been amazing in the Warriors' system. There's really only 1 other team that plays a similar style and doesn't rely as heavily on iso-style basketball, and that's San Antonio. With Kawhi there, he's not likely to go there.

KD left OKC because he's a pussy ass bitch.

[jabjab]

What I didn't get is the emotion of KD and his mom. You joined an already stacked team that beat you last year. All you had to do was show up and play, there was no struggle. I wouldn't feel like I earned that ring and finals MVP if I was Durant.

[colinxx235]

True, but they put themselves in salary cap hell with some pretty tough contracts. Tristan wasn't a max player when he signed that contract and arguably still isn't a max player now despite the explosion in cap space that resulted in a A LOT of players earning max. But really, I was referring to their dropping of Liggins in favour of signing Dahntay Jones just before game 82. Again, I'm not saying Liggins is the answer to all of the Cavs' woes, but it at least gave them a long and athletic perimeter defender to take some pressure of Kyrie.

Curry's kind of an interesting free agent case. His family has money and he's one of a handful of players whom, I think, shouldn't be taking max because they make way more in endorsements and other endeavours off court. Not to mention that staying with the Warriors gives him a shot at greatness that we haven't seen since the 96 Bulls - a greatness that he has a shot at surpassing, if he stays.

The Dubs, to their credit, have Green and Thompson locked up for 2 more years. KD is in the same boat as Curry in which I don't think they should be taking their respective max offers (well, KD has a player option, but he'll opt out if he wants more). KD left OKC because he didn't like the style of play there, and has been amazing in the Warriors' system. There's really only 1 other team that plays a similar style and doesn't rely as heavily on iso-style basketball, and that's San Antonio. With Kawhi there, he's not likely to go there.

Oh 100% agree they overspent, Love/Kyrie are max players, no one else on that team is. And lots of guys got overpaid as part of Lebron assembling his squad. I don't think there was a player they could have signed nor dropping Liggins that would have changed the outcome. GSW is just way way way too deep, and the way KD played aside from game 4 was unbelievable. 14/20 shooting last night with 5/9 from deep, what are you supposed to do, not to mention Igoudala played one hell of a game.

I know Curry was born with born with money and UA is paying him a good chunk in order to stay relevant in the ball game, but he's been making 1/2 of what he could have the last few years due to a very team friendly signing for a guy who took a bit to blossom. I guess we'll see if making 42 mil a season outweighs winning a few championships.

Hard to say what KD will do, he's got his manufactured ring and made $28 mil while doing it, I guess first step is as above what Curry asks of the warriors.

So i guess the biggest question is 1) will Lebron go try to manufacture another team like the bitch he is because Cavs are strapped and he's realized he cannot carry that team despite putting everything out there against Warriors. Is it going to be a game of cat and mouse about what Warriors do first or him that influences decisions. Or does he go off to laker land or clip city and try to pull Paul George, Hayward, or even KD etc etc to make another team? Lots and lots of options.

I'm still just so rattled that Kawhi got cheap shotted, I do believe the Spurs could have beat GSW in 6 or 7 with him at the helm. But I still stand by thinking he's #2 in the NBA/tied with KD, his defence is too hard to ignore. Plus Pop coaches that team so well. Either way this was the worst season of NBA I can recall, playoffs were dreadful to watch for the most part and I hope some type of parity happens soon. Least i've watched in a good 15+ years and will continue downwards if all I can expect is GSW winning championships until either the core breaks up or someone assembles and even more ridiculous team to take them down.

- - - Updated - - -


What I didn't get is the emotion of KD and his mom. You joined an already stacked team that beat you last year. All you had to do was show up and play, there was no struggle. I wouldn't feel like I earned that ring and finals MVP if I was Durant.

The emotion is overblown, as I mentioned the manufactured ring is lame as fuck.

Love or hate his decision to do that, being objective he was clearly the finals MVP. His numbers are pretty insane and his team won 4-1. Yes lebron averaged a triple double, but KD efficiency was nuts, I think if you pull out game 4 he averaged ~38 points/game at 60+% shooting and over 50+ from deep.


EDIT:
I feel I have to just toss in one more comment, especially because I feel LBJ is a whiny bitch. His post game interview "I don't feel I've ever played for a superteam" what a fucking butthurt loser. When you assembled in miami you took 3 of the top 10 players in the NBA. Cavs you did pretty much the same thing expect way higher end supporting talent, and last year you won. Cry some more with your 3-5 finals record. GOAT my ass, I just have to laugh everytime those clowns on ESPN/PTI etc argue that 5x a week for the last month, you haven't even touched Kobe or Magic yet.

[sexualbanana]

Cry some more with your 3-5 finals record. GOAT my ass, I just have to laugh everytime those clowns on ESPN/PTI etc argue that 5x a week for the last month, you haven't even touched Kobe or Magic yet.


I'm a staunch Lebron hater, but that hate is directed more at Lebron the GM/Power Player than Lebron the Player. Lebron the player is fucking unstoppable and even though some people see his 3-8 record in the Finals to be a black mark, I think it's damn impressive and speaks to how good of a player he is.

Lebron the GM/Power Player is the problem. He, or someone in his camp, convinces him that he needs to do certain things to keep his throne. Whether that is hold a TV show or lobby for a max contract for a teammate who shares the same agent (who started out as Lebron's friend). As a result, Thompson's contract is so hard to move that any trade involving Thompson is probably going to end up with him as a sweetener as a part of a larger deal.

There's an old story from the early Jordan days that basically retold how Jordan was unhappy with Jerry Krause and Phil Jackson so he went to owner Reinsdorf's house, where Reinsdorf told MJ that he would never have that kind of authority or influence.

[Manhattan]

That was the worst NBA season since I've been a fan. Same 2 teams expected to compete for a championship in the pre-season end up in the finals with the favorite winning. What's the point of having a season? Basketball is already by far the most predictable sport given the large amount of possessions and influence one player can have but it's so much worse now that players are treating the league like the WWE to team up with their buddies and building these ridiculous superteams. It's too bad that the finals had such high TV ratings because it's sending the wrong signal to the league that we want more of this garbage.

[JordanEG6]

So i guess the biggest question is 1) will Lebron go try to manufacture another team like the bitch he is because Cavs are strapped and he's realized he cannot carry that team despite putting everything out there against Warriors. Is it going to be a game of cat and mouse about what Warriors do first or him that influences decisions. Or does he go off to laker land or clip city and try to pull Paul George, Hayward, or even KD etc etc to make another team? Lots and lots of options.


I've heard the PG13 rumors. It's hard to say if they can actually do this with nothing else to offer but Kevin Love, and that's a shitty trade deal, even with a 1st round pick thrown in. Other than LeBron and Kyrie, the Cavs are overpaid bums, most of which could not deliver during crunch time.



I'm still just so rattled that Kawhi got cheap shotted, I do believe the Spurs could have beat GSW in 6 or 7 with him at the helm. But I still stand by thinking he's #2 in the NBA/tied with KD, his defence is too hard to ignore. Plus Pop coaches that team so well. Either way this was the worst season of NBA I can recall, playoffs were dreadful to watch for the most part and I hope some type of parity happens soon. Least i've watched in a good 15+ years and will continue downwards if all I can expect is GSW winning championships until either the core breaks up or someone assembles and even more ridiculous team to take them down.



This. Zaza has also always been dirty and/or just can't play basketball. But it was highlighted in the playoffs. The NBA is boring as it is, which such a predictable outcome this year, the Spurs could have thrown a monkey wrench into GSWs plans and took them out. I believed they would have beat them with Kawhi on the floor. As much as I hate the Spurs, I hated GSW more this year with KD basically buying them a ship.

What I'm waiting for are this years draft picks to make next season a bit more interesting. I've like to see where Fultz and Zo are going to end up. And the target on Zo's back by a number of NBA players including LBJ, to shut his dad's mouth. lol.

[colinxx235]

Yah I was on a bit of a LBJ hate/rant the other morning, lots of swearing in my post. Courtesy of the 2 hour trip to work on account of a dead deer on glenmore. Unfortunately I feel I have to group both the player and the GM together as one. Because he deems himself the king, best player in the world and uses the word "I/Me" in his press conferences more than any other player I can ever recall. He uses his leverage to push management to do what he wants, and they let him. Not just players but also coaching personnel. Hell I bet he could get the GM fired if he went to the top, which is so so very wrong.
End of the day guy is a freak of nature athlete and has allowed him to dominate the sport. But in the clutch, I feel he'll never hit that game winning shot. The guys around him crumble more than anything, which makes it tough when facing a very unselfish/talented roster like warriors. Although if I was his teammates and had to listen to his post game conferences basically saying (fuck you guys, i did my part, you suck, i'm the shit, me me me me) I would really question how much I'd like to be around that, or the effect it'll have in the offseason.

I can't imagine a scenario in which pacers give cavs PG13. Love is no where near a fair trade, 1st rounds won't mean shit if they are the 29/30th selection. Love for Melo, maybe... but if I was to guess right now I see Lebron leaving the Cavs. Which basically says, hey take a paycut to play with the Spurs, knowing you have the 2nd best player and the guy who in a few years will overtake you cause of the age decline. In addition to the roster you have probably the greatest coach of all time (sorry Phil, what he's done in NY is starting to make me feel so much of it was just having 3-4 of the best players all time for those 11). In which case maybe CP3 takes a paycut to join his best buddy and make a super team. Otherwise do you go to Clippers and try to keep that intact and cause more vets to sign for minimum to build up. Or the final is the whole pursuit of hollywood, join the Lakers, bring some talent with you, have a great coach, lots of young guys building up and make that your next venture (i feel this might be the least likely of the 3 cause it requires the most work, and well... i think he's still a bitch :rofl::rofl:)


Celtics if they land Hayward and add the 1st pick, maybe another player could challenge the east. I hope they do, as in the event Lebron stays another year I would like to see Cavs lose ECF or earlier.
Lavar is the most infuriating man in the world to listen to, I hope Lakers take Fox, Faulk or Jackson and the Ball family goes crying and ranting.

[sexualbanana]

I know Curry was born with born with money and UA is paying him a good chunk in order to stay relevant in the ball game, but he's been making 1/2 of what he could have the last few years due to a very team friendly signing for a guy who took a bit to blossom. I guess we'll see if making 42 mil a season outweighs winning a few championships.


Ultimately, the question comes down to how important being the max player on a team is vs. being on a historically great dynasty.

Ultimately, there are a handful of players in the league who deserve way more than max, but should never take it because endorsement money and their credibility are worth way more than what they would make via salary.

1) Lebron
2) Steph
3) Chris Paul
4) Paul George
5) Carmelo

4 & 5 are debatable and could be interchanged with 3 or 4 other players.

[Manhattan]

If you take Lavar's words seriously and at face value then you need to reevaluate your life haha. Marketing genius or not I think he's hilarious and just having a good time. Lonzo is a spectacular talent if you block out all the noise.

[max_boost]

What would the backlash be like if LBJ left the Cavs again? Or is it okay because he got them a title.

[sexualbanana]

If you take Lavar's words seriously and at face value then you need to reevaluate your life haha. Marketing genius or not I think he's hilarious and just having a good time. Lonzo is a spectacular talent if you block out all the noise.

There are big concerns with Lonzo though. According to the Lakers, his last workout with them was underwhelming and he was out of shape. Also, De'aaron Fox basically showed him up in the tournament when they went head-to-head and Lonzo was a non-factor in that game.
The hype and controversy surrounding his dad can be a big distraction. Some NBA teams might say it's not a big deal, but if given the opportunity to choose a player who outplayed Lonzo AND doesn't have the annoyance of a father like Lavar, it's easy to see why a team would pass him up in favor of Fox.

[colinxx235]

There are big concerns with Lonzo though. According to the Lakers, his last workout with them was underwhelming and he was out of shape. Also, De'aaron Fox basically showed him up in the tournament when they went head-to-head and Lonzo was a non-factor in that game.
The hype and controversy surrounding his dad can be a big distraction. Some NBA teams might say it's not a big deal, but if given the opportunity to choose a player who outplayed Lonzo AND doesn't have the annoyance of a father like Lavar, it's easy to see why a team would pass him up in favor of Fox.

I don't take his words at face value manhattan. Lavar is a clown and trying to get attention. Otherwise if he truly believe half the shit he says, I need to get my hand on whatever he is smoking. But what I do take at face value is that up until probably the last week, he believe 100% without a doubt that his kid was getting drafted by the Lakers, he can market his pos company and get his fortune off his kids. But as sexybanana just pointed out above which is what I was going to reiterate is that Fox slaughtered him in the tournament, and record show he did the same thing back in high school. Add on the lakers didn't like his workout, loved Fox's workout.
When I watch the interview of Fox, Jackson, Faulk vs Lonzo it is so much different in the mindsets and humility. If I was to put all four players on the exact same talent level/need of the lakers, he would be the 4th choice. They are show time, Laker city, no need for them to have some media frenzied rookie distracting a team who is already filled with plenty of issues since the downturn of Kobe. I will agree that Lonzo is a very talented player and would be stunned if he was to fall out of the top 5, but at what cost does he come with all the attention and his dad. Even if you had a stable team built, would be hestitant to bring that in. It is unfortunate that his dad has put a big target on him that will certainly follow him his entire first season, but he also bears part of it. The guy has been on kimmel, SI, ESPN etc non stop, and says some dumb things (yes once again they are trying to get attention for BBB) and if i'm the GM/Owner can't say I would be too pleased to watch that.

Even as I type this out, its so sad that my group of friends/ESPN etc spend more time talking about undrafted college players, their parents and off season moves of players than the actual game itself. I really like everything online/interviews with Fox, I think that kid is a competitor and winner, driven purely by himself. Jackson seems pretty humble (from what i've seen) and i'm such a fan of Kawhi that I would be searching for guys like him, and both in build/play Jackson would fit more that profile. I will be very interested so see how the draft goes, and hopefully its a good crop of talent to keep the future of the league building.

[sexualbanana]

I don't take his words at face value manhattan. Lavar is a clown and trying to get attention. Otherwise if he truly believe half the shit he says, I need to get my hand on whatever he is smoking. But what I do take at face value is that up until probably the last week, he believe 100% without a doubt that his kid was getting drafted by the Lakers, he can market his pos company and get his fortune off his kids.

The moment he went on TV and argued with either Stephen A or Skip (I can't remember which airbag) that MJ was too small for him, that was the moment you see that he's clearly hamming it up for his own publicity. That's when I stopped clicking on anything Lavar-related.

[Manhattan]

One bad game against Fox is way overblown. Kentucky is the most stacked college team year after year. Even their bench players frequently get drafted while Lonzo is playing in the backcourt with scrubs like Alford. It's hard to have a good game when the entire defense is focused on you. His stats for the season at UCLA were ELITE. Only player in the country to average a certain level of pts, assists, and reb and the first player since Jason Kidd to do so. And he's a better shooter than Kidd coming out of college shooting over 40% from 3.

Fox might be good but there's just been way too many small PG's in college who never translate their game to the pro level - Johnny Flynn, Kris Dunn just to name a few. Drafting undersized guards is a crap shoot. Josh Jackson is overrated given his FT% in the 50's. IMO the best gauge of shooting ability is FT. If you can't shoot straight with no one guarding you are naturally a terrible shooter. He's more Andrew Wiggins without a jumper than anything close to resembling Kawhi.

[colinxx235]

Well technically two bad games. Fox got the better of him in the regular season as well. It was just national stage Fox embarrassed him. Yes Fox had the better roster, but in 1on1 play his athleticism and defence stood up well.

6'4 isn't too bad for Fox. Lonzo has 2 inches on him. It is typically hard to predict who well succeed at the next level, tons of busts and tons of later pick gems all over.
I'm not saying Jackson will be anything like Kawhi, cause that is some sacred ground. But similar build/length/speed, great pressure defence, needs work on offence. Leonard went from shooting 72% in college to 89% at the line last season, some guys neglect FT shooting as they grow up which is a major problem in the game (i.e. Deandre, Shaq, Dwight etc.) because of their size.

My post probably game across as diminishing Lonzo's skill a bit too much, mainly because I'm so tired of seeing him on the ESPN app/youtube home feed every damn day with someone new. But yah I do prefer the other 3 in the project tops. I see guys like Lonzo and immediately think of Manziel. Fortunately for him it isn't a tackle sport but that doesn't mean he won't have a target. But last think I want as a GM/Coach is players needing extra motivation to come shit on my player.

[sexualbanana]

What I didn't get is the emotion of KD and his mom. You joined an already stacked team that beat you last year. All you had to do was show up and play, there was no struggle. I wouldn't feel like I earned that ring and finals MVP if I was Durant.

But it's the same as draft picks though. Lottery draft picks (especially the top 5) know they're being picked, but to actually get picked is still a big deal.

[Manhattan]

But it's the same as draft picks though. Lottery draft picks (especially the top 5) know they're being picked, but to actually get picked is still a big deal.

Getting drafted is a way bigger deal for just about every player in the NBA. It's the culmination of probably a decade's worth of hard work and marks the transition from a life of poverty to being set for life (even though a lot of players blow it all). That has a much bigger effect on someone's life than winning a championship.

A more accurate description of Durant's moment would sound something like 'multi-millionaire wins easiest road to championship in history'. KD is a league MVP in his prime who joined a 73 win team and torched thru the playoffs. There was virtually no struggle on that road to victory. The only game they lost in the playoffs was after sweeping thru the entire playoffs and being up 3-0. Media will write fluff stories cuz that's what they do. KD joining GSW is like beating NBA 2K on beginner mode.

PG trade bait is gonna get nuts. Free agency and draft is more interesting than games these days.

[sexualbanana]

A more accurate description of Durant's moment would sound something like 'multi-millionaire wins easiest road to championship in history'. KD is a league MVP in his prime who joined a 73 win team and torched thru the playoffs. There was virtually no struggle on that road to victory. The only game they lost in the playoffs was after sweeping thru the entire playoffs and being up 3-0. Media will write fluff stories cuz that's what they do. KD joining GSW is like beating NBA 2K on beginner mode.


So like the Team USA Dream Teams where they get chosen for the most all-star of all-star teams and roll over every country.

[colinxx235]

Interesting few days now, as I said, more excitement in the offseason than watching the game :rofl:
1) Dwight Howard must be livid... traded from his hometown for a bag of balls basically
2) I think the lakers were really hoping to trade for the first but couldn't swing it. 76ers are making great moves to add so much young talent, Fultz will be a great addition to that team, lakers missed out. I was curious what the hell they were going to do about D Russ, it was clear his teammates would never really accept him there after the shit he pulled. Now they get a much better big man for the season, and I'm guessing they are still going to draft Lonzo... unless they surprise with Fox. Jackson won't be a laker after dumping Russ off.
3) Paul George has definitely just shit on the pacers, at first I didn't think Lakers would offer shit, but the 27/28th pick + either Randle or Clarkson seems a good chunk to give up in order to not wait 1 season, but you are a prime market and the last 3 seasons have been brutal for that franchise.
4) I fucking hate the bulls (fan since I was young, big surprise). How the hell can you consider trading away Butler... guy is young, wants to be there and is a legit all-star. And you want to swap him for the 3rd pick? Cause Jackson or whoever you have your eyes on is going to be better... cmon man
5) Knicks organization is a joke, Phil Jackson is ruining that franchise and should be dismissed. Go snipe a guy like Chauncey before Cavs do
6) Gilbert is the worst owner in probably all of major sports (can't think of one worse right now). His firing of Griffin is absurd, among countless other things he has done.

[Manhattan]

Markelle Fultz's game reminds me a lot of Damian Lillard which is really good but is that worthy of trading a bunch of assets and a #1 overall pick?

Josh Jackson will more likely than not be a BUST. There's been so many athletic wings who can't shoot straight drafted in the lottery in the past decade and end up being busts. The rest of the draft is really anybody's guess. As a GM, individual workouts are pretty useless. Just about every NBA level player looks amazing running and shooting in a gym alone.

Lonzo has the highest ceiling and most star potential out of this draft.

[sexualbanana]

Westbrook gets MVP. I'm not surprised, but I don't think he was the most deserving (which is not meant as an indictment on him).