Guaranteed Basic Income

[ZenOps]

http://www.torontosun.com/2017/04/24/three-ontario-cities-to-test-basic-income-pilot-project

The beast approacheth!

[ExtraSlow]

Well, if you believe in the concepts behind EI, OAS, etc, this isn't too wild of a concept, however there are lot of people that don't like the idea of anyone receiving money from the government at all.

Being that I just had a "full ride" of 63 weeks of EI, I'm not in a position to judge . . . :hitit:

[max_boost]

Can't wait. I'll be on it in a few years.

[mr2mike]

Read about that... so basically, we're all going to be employed by the governement soon.

[Buster]

It's not a bad idea...but there is basically zero ability to create a policy which will realize the benefits.

[Xtrema]

Originally posted by mr2mike
Read about that... so basically, we're all going to be employed by the governement soon.

Employed means working.

You don't have to work for this.

But I think setting it at $17K is pretty good. It's not enough to live on but enough to help someone out and reduce strain on other services like Police and Health.

And the minute someone is making $34K, training wheels comes off.

But realistically, I see a bunch of kids, smoking pot and staying in parent's basement just collecting $17K/yr and doing odd cash jobs.

[max_boost]

^^^

Or grown men like me lol :D

[mr2mike]

Originally posted by Xtrema

Employed means working.


Naw. Just means on payroll.

[A790]

Originally posted by Xtrema
But realistically, I see a bunch of kids, smoking pot and staying in parent's basement just collecting $17K/yr and doing odd cash jobs.
As automation continues to usurp previously "secure" and well-paying jobs, your targeted demographic may change significantly...

[Xtrema]

Originally posted by A790

As automation continues to usurp previously "secure" and well-paying jobs, your targeted demographic may change significantly...

Yeah, I was half joking. Even in China, policy setters are now preparing for only 10% population working in the future.

Everything is on a cycle. I'm sure communism will make a comeback sooner or later. Especially everyone is losing their jobs.

[Tik-Tok]

Where is this money coming from? Higher taxes? Making the person earning $15/hour take home less than the person not working at all?

[A790]

Originally posted by Xtrema


Yeah, I was half joking. Even in China, policy setters are now preparing for only 10% population working in the future.

Everything is on a cycle. I'm sure communism will make a comeback sooner or later. Especially everyone is losing their jobs.
I hear you.

I'm fucking terrified, personally. It's going to be a real shit-show, and way sooner than I think we think...

[Sugarphreak]

...

[J-hop]

Get your kids learning to code at an early age. I'm so glad I took more programming classes than needed and learned a few languages. I watch people who can't make the switch to the general principles and way of thinking you need to understand to code and they are quickly becoming useless even in things as basic as excel

[flipstah]

If I were earning income exceeding the minimum guarantee, does my income go lower or higher?

[ZenOps]

"Participants in three regions will be randomly chosen and invited to apply to the pilot project, in which 4,000 people will be selected. It will cost the government $50 million a year."

So less than what they lent to Kanye.

[ercchry]

Originally posted by Xtrema


But realistically, I see a bunch of kids, smoking pot and staying in parent's basement just collecting $17K/yr and doing odd cash jobs.

I see a lot of kids "finding themselves" in third world countries

...should help with finding jobs though for people who care enough to actually earn money

New goal... work as a contractor for someone else's small business... never draw a salary, collect min-come.... get company to invest all earnings.... ball out after 10 years :bigpimp:

[Chandler_Racing]

^ I haven't done small business tax in a while but don't believe it works like that. Investment income in a corporation is subject to the highest personal tax rate as it is not active business income.

There is RDTOH applied to dividends subsequently made to a person which works to reduce this so effectively you "pre-pay" the tax at the highest rate.

[HiTempguy1]

Originally posted by ercchry


I see a lot of kids "finding themselves" in third world countries


Yep.

"Holy crap, I turned 18 and now I get $17k per year for nothing! Lets go be entitled asshats across the world while living expense free in mommy and daddy's basement until 25!"

Fuck that noise.

[My_name_is_Rob]

Why wouldn't they use this money to further supplement post-secondary education? And by that I mean reduce the costs to the point where its cheaper for students. At least this way they would increase the education level of the country, while providing incentive to actually learn. This country is so ass-backwards, and it confuses the hell out of me. :dunno: :banghead:

[Sugarphreak]

...

[Seth1968]

Originally posted by Sugarphreak
It just occurred to me that the pay-day loan business is going to be off the hook!

You can get 300$ for just 25 bucks!

Saw some signs that show $300 for free :facepalm:

Reminds me of a storage place that has a sign showing 99% off.

[Feruk]

Originally posted by My_name_is_Rob
Why wouldn't they use this money to further supplement post-secondary education?
Maybe because what you can take at places like SAIT has just become stupid. Not everybody needs a post-secondary education. Perfect example is the SAIT course below. I never wanna see tax dollars subsidizing bullshit like this.

What's worse is as courses like this become popular, employers will request the courses on a resume, which will force more people to take them, putting a bigger strain on post-secondary education for a job you can easily learn by just working it.

http://www.sait.ca/programs-and-courses/full-time-studies/diplomas/hospitality-management

[BandW]

brb quitting 75k salary job to get 17k for doing nothing.

jk

why would anyone want that?

[Aaaaaron]

They tried this in Manitoba during the 70's. I don't think they completed a final report on their findings, but there is a fair amount of information of the program out there.

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/opinion/analysis/revisiting-manitobas-basic-income-experiment-411490895.html

[Seth1968]

Originally posted by Tik-Tok
Where is this money coming from?

I could be wrong, but I suspect that the NDP sees the upper middle class and the rich as having an excessive amount of disposable income. Well, certainly enough that a small tax hike on their income won't affect their lifestyle.

So perhaps that's where they'll get the money. Then again, there's always the magical money printing machine.

[Masked Bandit]

So is this really just welfare with a different name? Lazy phucks will lazy. What the hell is anyone going to do with $17K a year, that's less than minimum wage.

[My_name_is_Rob]

Originally posted by Feruk

Maybe because what you can take at places like SAIT has just become stupid. Not everybody needs a post-secondary education. Perfect example is the SAIT course below. I never wanna see tax dollars subsidizing bullshit like this.

What's worse is as courses like this become popular, employers will request the courses on a resume, which will force more people to take them, putting a bigger strain on post-secondary education for a job you can easily learn by just working it.

http://www.sait.ca/programs-and-courses/full-time-studies/diplomas/hospitality-management

That doesn't seem too far fetched, as it seems like the condensed version of the hospitality and tourism degree at the U of C. I think the only perk out of either of those would be to work yourself into a hotel or resort somewhere tropical.

The average salary of $38,000 for the grads of that program, seems like it should scare some people away from it.

[Seth1968]

Originally posted by Masked Bandit
What the hell is anyone going to do with $17K a year,

That would depend on what you mean by "do". It also depends on the rental market prices.

So it's about $1400 a month of what will be a zero (or close to) tax rate. Now just rent a cheap room or bachelor apartment and you're good to go to do absolutely nothing...which I suspect is exactly what the Mincome participants want to do.

[mr2mike]

Originally posted by Aaaaaron
They tried this in Manitoba during the 70's. I don't think they completed a final report on their findings, but there is a fair amount of information of the program out there.

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/opinion/analysis/revisiting-manitobas-basic-income-experiment-411490895.html

Thanks for posting this.

[Xtrema]

Originally posted by My_name_is_Rob
Why wouldn't they use this money to further supplement post-secondary education? And by that I mean reduce the costs to the point where its cheaper for students. At least this way they would increase the education level of the country, while providing incentive to actually learn. This country is so ass-backwards, and it confuses the hell out of me. :dunno: :banghead:

We already did that. That's how we get all them baristas and money to "non-profit" universities.


Originally posted by J-hop
Get your kids learning to code at an early age. I'm so glad I took more programming classes than needed and learned a few languages. I watch people who can't make the switch to the general principles and way of thinking you need to understand to code and they are quickly becoming useless even in things as basic as excel

With how fast AI progresses, I'm not sure even coding will keep you employed. But not knowing coding will definitely not employable.

[Manhattan]

$17K aka $1400/month is not a terrible income. I lived on about that much when I was working throughout my 20's. $650 on rent with a roommate, 500 on groceries and going out, remainder on bills and random stuff. It's a decent living considering you're getting paid to do NOTHING. :banghead:

If you're paying people why not make them do something even if its menial tasks like street sweeping or even paying them to complete some education. Free money sends all the wrong messages and encourages laziness which becomes an unbreakable cycle. Living out west we don't get a sense of just how crazy liberal socialist the rest of Canada really is.

And I don't buy this automation killing 90% of jobs crap for a minute. 100 years ago we would've all been farmers but as technology comes along it creates a lot more skilled jobs. We just don't know what those jobs will look like at this point.

[J-hop]

Originally posted by Xtrema


We already did that. That's how we get all them baristas and money to "non-profit" universities.

To be fair a huge portion of young baristas you are referring to are there to pay their way through uni....

People always bash Starbucks and Tim Hortons employees but those are some of the better companies flexibility wise to work for during uni. I'd go out on a limb and say on average the baristas have a higher level of education than the average clientele :rofl:



Originally posted by Manhattan
.

And I don't buy this automation killing 90% of jobs crap for a minute. 100 years ago we would've all been farmers but as technology comes along it creates a lot more skilled jobs. We just don't know what those jobs will look like at this point.

That is a common argument but new jobs simply are not appearing at the rate they used to, to keep pace with advancements in technology.


A bad and completely fabricated example. A simple assembly line robot created a few dozen jobs to design (once), build, program and maintain. But got rid of 100s of jobs on assembly lines.

The other problem is the majority of the jobs created will be at highly technical levels and the barrier to entry is getting higher. Even today we are starting to see that a bachelor's degree isn't even enough for a lot of technical roles

[HiTempguy1]

Originally posted by Feruk

at places like SAIT[/url]

:rofl:

Get your head out of your ass.


Originally posted by My_name_is_Rob

That doesn't seem too far fetched, as it seems like the condensed version of the hospitality and tourism degree at the U of C.

Now THAT is a waste of money.

While I agree with Feruk's sentiment in general, I think it is generally accepted that management have some form of formal training. Do they need a degree? No. But some training that is specific to industry isn't a bad thing.

And that train has already left the station in regards to more education for jobs that don't need it. I see so many jobs that could be done without an education. The problem is that Canada suffers from an incredibly low investment culture when it comes to employee training. Its been shoved off from companies to the education system, and it shows. And in order to get in, you have to get further post secondary :dunno:

[HiTempguy1]

Originally posted by Manhattan

If you're paying people why not make them do something even if its menial tasks like street sweeping or even paying them to complete some education.

Exactly. On minicome? You're sweeping, picking up garbage, painting buildings, fences, bridges, etc.

[Xtrema]

Originally posted by Seth1968


I could be wrong, but I suspect that the NDP sees the upper middle class and the rich as having an excessive amount of disposable income. Well, certainly enough that a small tax hike on their income won't affect their lifestyle.

So perhaps that's where they'll get the money. Then again, there's always the magical money printing machine.

The idea is how to spend your public funds. Spend $17K to help someone to get back on their feet or $100K in policing and health care otherwise.

It's basically the same math Med Hat used to end homelessness. $20K to put them in a home instead of $100K of other social services.

http://www.cbc.ca/radio/asithappens/as-it-happens-thursday-edition-1.3074402/medicine-hat-becomes-the-first-city-in-canada-to-eliminate-homelessness-1.3074742


Originally posted by HiTempguy1


Exactly. On minicome? You're sweeping, picking up garbage, painting buildings, fences, bridges, etc.

Unions will not allow that.

Only people can live on $17K are kids leeching off parents or retirees that got the housing situation under control. For most of the population, it's still not a good enough incentive to not work.

Also, min income could be used to replace EI. And for some of the population in Calgary that EI has ran out, it's probably better shock absorber than the current EI system and even Self Employed people can benefit from it.

[Seth1968]

Originally posted by HiTempguy1


Exactly. On minicome? You're sweeping, picking up garbage, painting buildings, fences, bridges, etc.

Then it's no longer a "guaranteed income".

[Seth1968]

Originally posted by Xtrema


The idea is how to spend your public funds. Spend $17K to help someone to get back on their feet or $100K in policing and health care otherwise.

It's basically the same math Med Hat used to end homelessness. $20K to put them in a home instead of $100K of other social services.

Thanks for that.

It seems like an interesting experiment.

[msommers]

Originally posted by Xtrema
It's basically the same math Med Hat used to end homelessness. $20K to put them in a home instead of $100K of other social services.


Calgary has similar programs too.

Even if you (someone) somehow doesn't give two shits about a homeless person's life, the money spent on helping them out of homelessness and addictions recovery is cheaper overall than them ending up in emerg all the time.

It's the same reason why efforts like The DOAP team exist - it's cheaper for tax payers and less stressful to the individual for an outreach team to pick up/transport someone's drunk ass than having to call the cops/ambulance for non-emergency situations where their services could be better served.

This all falls under the umbrella of harm reduction.

[A790]

LOL.

Mincome is coming, but not for the reasons most of you think.

What are we supposed to do with people once most jobs are automated?

[Seth1968]

You've got $1400 a month Canadian that's automatically deposited into your account every month with no obligation.

So go to some warm spot in another country where rent and food are extremely cheap?

[ercchry]

I know a few "kids" (hard to call them kids when they're pushing 30) that just live at their parents' summer cottages year round

All they have to do is buy food when their parents aren't there... and put gas in the boat and sled, and have enough leftover for a case of beer every week... they managed just fine sucking on ei before... now it's probably going to mean a new sled every other year! :rofl:

[Masked Bandit]

In my opinion, any parent that lets there grown children live at home is exploding the problem. If you let the "kid" live at home for free, you're negatively impacting society just as much if not more than the "kid" is. Now I'm not talking about people going through school (and even that's up for debate), but the educational portion of their life is done it's time to get the hell out of the nest.

[max_boost]

That's pretty sweet. It definitely covers the basic stuff.

$300 property tax
$600 condo fee
$300 gas, insurance
$200 internet, phone, power

Go work some odd jobs to get food money or charge the gf $1k rent. I think I can actually retire lol no kids and just lounge around for the next 50 years :rofl:

[Seth1968]

Originally posted by max_boost
That's pretty sweet. It definitely covers the basic stuff.

$300 property tax
$600 condo fee
$300 gas, insurance
$200 internet, phone, power

Go work some odd jobs to get food money or charge the gf $1k rent. I think I can actually retire lol no kids and just lounge around for the next 50 years :rofl:

Ya but then the gf will want the Mincome. That means she'll be hanging around the house all day annoying you:)

[Sugarphreak]

...

[Tik-Tok]

Originally posted by Manhattan

And I don't buy this automation killing 90% of jobs crap for a minute. 100 years ago we would've all been farmers but as technology comes along it creates a lot more skilled jobs. We just don't know what those jobs will look like at this point.

It's not just that automation takes current jobs, it's that it limits future jobs as well.

http://blog.dssresearch.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/world_population_1050_to_2050.jpg

[flipstah]

Originally posted by Seth1968


Ya but then the gf will want the Mincome. That means she'll be hanging around the house all day annoying you:)

Gotta master pull out game :thumbsup:

[Sugarphreak]

...

[flipstah]

Originally posted by Sugarphreak


That looks like a sustainable chart!

http://www.thepeoplehistory.com/1800s.html

AMAZING.

The first Oktoberfest.

[A790]

Originally posted by Manhattan

And I don't buy this automation killing 90% of jobs crap for a minute. 100 years ago we would've all been farmers but as technology comes along it creates a lot more skilled jobs. We just don't know what those jobs will look like at this point.
Bury your head in the sand all your want. It won't change much. :(

[suntan]

Originally posted by max_boost
That's pretty sweet. It definitely covers the basic stuff.

$300 property tax
$600 condo fee
$300 gas, insurance
$200 internet, phone, power

Go work some odd jobs to get food money or charge the gf $1k rent. I think I can actually retire lol no kids and just lounge around for the next 50 years :rofl: THAT'S IT MAN, I'M SPENDING ALL MY RRSP MONEY!

[Xtrema]

Originally posted by Manhattan
And I don't buy this automation killing 90% of jobs crap for a minute. 100 years ago we would've all been farmers but as technology comes along it creates a lot more skilled jobs. We just don't know what those jobs will look like at this point.

Adoption of Autonomus cars will impact 8% of employment. Even if 1/2 found or kept to service these robots, you are still looking a 4% unemployment increase. We all see Calgary went from 4% to 10% unemployment and see how bad it has been for this town, this will have same impact.

Also if you are looking at driving a cab to fixing robots, that's quite a large gap of knowledge and skill. So most likely, cab and truck drivers displaced by robots will need to find other low skill jobs or stay unemployed. And if a robot technician can fixes 1 robot per working day, you are still displacing 20 cab drivers. That's 1 to 2 jobs gained for every 20 lost.

This is just 1 industry. There will be others.

[J-hop]

I don't think people realise too that "we don't know what these jobs will look like" is kind of an already too late statement. The automation of the world is happening now, it's not a problem we'll have to deal with in the future, we are dealing with it as we speak and new fields are simply not emerging.

[HiTempguy1]

Originally posted by J-hop
I don't think people realise too that "we don't know what these jobs will look like" is kind of an already too late statement. The automation of the world is happening now, it's not a problem we'll have to deal with in the future, we are dealing with it as we speak and new fields are simply not emerging.

It is an interesting thought experiment if nothing else. Off the top of my head:

postal work force and admin related to it - automated
freight and delivery work force and admin - automated
fast food restaurants - 100% automated (there is no reason to have any employees at fast food places as far as I can tell)
car manufacturing plants - 85% automated (if they aren't already)
journalism - with the schlock that is passed off nowadays as "professional" writing, 95% automated easily
taxi drivers - 100% automated

Arguably, you can completely get rid of wait staff and bartenders as well, unless people care for the human element. I'm 50/50 on that, as I find most people nowadays have zero social skills to get an indication service is required, or even more importantly, when service ISN'T required. If I'm eating the food, its probably to my satisfaction. If I'm sitting with a scowl on my face and the food pushed away, eyeballing you for the past 10 minutes, probably means I have a complaint.

Another area would be taxation, the rules are pretty set in stone, there is no reason that it could not be 100% automated. Tax preparation is a $7bil/year business in Canada.

So we just got rid of how many people?

[Xtrema]

Originally posted by HiTempguy1


So we just got rid of how many people?

Great West Life just announced 1500 laid off and replace them with 200 tech staff to focus on online client support.

This is a great example of things to come. 1 job replaces 8.

[Antonito]

Originally posted by HiTempguy1


Exactly. On minicome? You're sweeping, picking up garbage, painting buildings, fences, bridges, etc. At that point it's not mincome, it's plain old jobs. Which would be great, except then people whine about property taxes and communism

[Antonito]

Originally posted by max_boost
That's pretty sweet. It definitely covers the basic stuff.

$300 property tax
$600 condo fee
$300 gas, insurance
$200 internet, phone, power

Go work some odd jobs to get food money or charge the gf $1k rent. I think I can actually retire lol no kids and just lounge around for the next 50 years :rofl: Lol basics, assuming you've already paid off your house and car(s) and have no debt. So about 1% of Canadians. :rofl:

This ignores any major home repairs, replacing the current cars or major repairs, wanting to do anything more interesting than turning into a couch potato.... I'd give it about 3 years before you and Sugarphreak figured out that being welfare bums is bullshit lol

As far as the truly shiftless basement dwellers that live off Mom and dad, I say good riddance. I already have to deal with too many of these assholes as is. Show up for a week because Dad is trying one last time to get him out, drag his feet, check his phone, sigh heavily every 30 seconds until we send him back home to cry to Mommy that the mean man made him work too hard. These are the jobs that have already disappeared: toll booth workers, night watchman at unimportant places, putting stickers on machines, jobs that literally only required a warm body so the absolute dregs could go hide from their parents for 30 hours a week.

[Sugarphreak]

...

[mr2mike]

After paying my taxes, I certainly hope my payment goes to the biggest pot head around and I can recoupe some of my money via pot stock gains.

Call it hedging.

[ExtraSlow]

Discussion of this topic in the nation post today.
http://nationalpost.com/opinion/andrew-coyne-three-points-on-the-gst-to-end-poverty-guaranteed-income-sounds-like-a-good-deal

[HiTempguy1]

Discussion of this topic in the nation post today.
http://nationalpost.com/opinion/andrew-coyne-three-points-on-the-gst-to-end-poverty-guaranteed-income-sounds-like-a-good-deal

None of that gets away from the fact that giving the government more money 100% of the time results in a higher amount of wasted money.

[KrisYYC]

Where is this money coming from? Higher taxes? Making the person earning $15/hour take home less than the person not working at all?

I think the only scenario where this theoretically works at all is if everyone gets it, even people who are working and regardless of their income.

Being disqualified after a certain (usually fairly low) income means this is no different than welfare. There should never be an incentive not to work.

[ercchry]

I think the only scenario where this theoretically works at all is if everyone gets it, even people who are working and regardless of their income.

Being disqualified after a certain (usually fairly low) income means this is no different than welfare. There should never be an incentive not to work.

How would we pay for free money for all?! Push the rich out of the country with higher taxes for them? Nationalize resources that are exported? There is no good solution

[ExtraSlow]

How would we pay for free money for all?! Push the rich out of the country with higher taxes for them? Nationalize resources that are exported? There is no good solution
Theres no free lunch, but currently low income Canadians take a huge amount of government resources in terms of health care, social programs etc. The theory of mincome is that people with stable resources will need less of the other stuff.

Now, there's a moral argument right under the surface of this. Is it wrong to pay people for nothing? Is it wrong to fail to help those who need help? Since beyond.ca is almost entirely 1%-ers, it's easy to understand the perspective.

[rage2]

How would we pay for free money for all?! Push the rich out of the country with higher taxes for them? Nationalize resources that are exported? There is no good solution
It's right in the article. 3% hike on the GST. Don't forget to convert your leases to finances before that happens. :rofl:

[killramos]

The only way around all this crap is to actually own assets.

Mincome could make being a slumlord the best idea ever.

[HiTempguy1]

Theres no free lunch, but currently low income Canadians take a huge amount of government resources in terms of health care, social programs etc. The theory of mincome is that people with stable resources will need less of the other stuff.

The only way this theory works is if they SCRAP all other low income resources. The problem is, they never will, or if they do initially, they'll just keep bringing in more and more "boutique" and "identity" based resources. Putting us back where we currently are, plus the mincome on top of that.

It's a glorified cash grab. Nobody in this country is below poverty that doesn't want to be. We can't fix everyone, lots of people are unfixable. The only solution is to put them in basically poverty prisons where they are forced to work towards being productive members of society. Or in the case of the mentally ill, contained with their freedoms restricted so the resources we spend on them aren't wasted.

Good luck with that. My purchasing power has significantly eroded over the past three years even though I "earn" more money than ever. I'm firmly in the "lowest taxes possible" camp with small gov the only option. Anything else with our current system leads to ruin.

[ercchry]

It's right in the article. 3% hike on the GST. Don't forget to convert your leases to finances before that happens. :rofl:

For low earners, sure... but that was in response to “everyone should get it” which means mincome would have to equal 3% of average annual spending... and essentially would just be a 3% gst credit... lower earners already get a gst credit, and it’s not much

[Xtrema]

For low earners, sure... but that was in response to “everyone should get it” which means mincome would have to equal 3% of average annual spending... and essentially would just be a 3% gst credit... lower earners already get a gst credit, and it’s not much

In typical internet fashion, not a economist and didn't read article but here's what I think.

3% in GST is enough to cover mincome.

mincome is suppose to cut cost on other welfares so we will save some $. May be removing CPP and OAS as well?

If everyone get mincome, does that mean business doesn't have to cover the mincome portion? So wage will be lowered? That should be a business booster. IE a FTE at $15/hr will cost about $30K. If mincome take cares $12K of that, business will only have to pay $18K and in effect cut the minimum wage back to $9/hr?

That actually sounds cool.

And of course, there will be a lot more divorcee because if you get $16K as a couple and $24 as singles, everyone will be singles and roommates. :D

[killramos]

I love how every time mincome gets brought up there is a generic cloud of “it will save money” with no quantification of that.

If people are actually interested in making this policy I want to see the math on that.

Otherwise we end up wih coc style budgets where we get green carts shoved down our throat at extra cost and garbage service slashed while the program as a whole was supposed to “save money”.

Government loves to pay for studies, lets try a cost benefit study for a change.

[Xtrema]

I love how every time mincome gets brought up there is a generic cloud of “it will save money” with no quantification of that.

OAS and GIS maxed out about $12K right now. So mincome (if it's replacing it) will do little to no differences to pensioners.

CPP is a paid into pyramid scheme so there is no way to get rid of that.

To majority of mincome would be for 18-65 crowd.

The whole mincome replaces other social program/problems argument, I know it's a tougher sell. But at least from the business angle, may not be a bad sell.

What I worry about is inflation once this get going. When everyone got money, the market tends to charge more and adjust for that. See Calgary housing market during the boom years.

[Mista Bob]

I'm sure plenty of people here would change their tune on this once their jobs are taken away by automation.
Technology progresses at an exponential rate and as this happens more and more industries will become increasingly or completely automated.
This will not just be robotic automation, while yes that will increase as well of course. There will also start to be a large increase in positions becoming obsolete because an AI program will be able to do it better, without the need for a pesky human putting in their 9 to 5.

And it wont be long for this to happen either. If your job involves repetitive tasks or a computer, it won't be all that long before that job won't need you. Hell, with advances in robotics even more complex manual labor tasks will be able to be done by robotics as well.
For society to continue functioning, a guaranteed basic income will become 100% necessary at some point.

And then there is the whole idea of the guaranteed basic income being beneficial in other ways as well.
Less people will turn to crime if they don't need to worry about where their next meal will come from or how they are going to maintain a roof above their heads. Less people will need to turn to various services to help them survive.
Doesn't seem like a very difficult thing to comprehend on how this could potentialy save money. So may as well get it started now, get it in place before it becomes a necessity.

[ercchry]

This is starting to sound like communism...

Even if all work is done by AI... how does the government leverage that into enough revenue to cover the living costs for the masses without pushing industry out of the country completely?

[rage2]

How much booze can you buy for $12k?

[Mista Bob]

This is starting to sound like communism...

Even if all work is done by AI... how does the government leverage that into enough revenue to cover the living costs for the masses without pushing industry out of the country completely?

Communism? Maybe so, but doesn't change the fact that it is happening right now as we speak.

There will need to be dramatic changes for society to continue, there is no way around this. Unless all automation efforts cease, or the population decreases dramatically........ we both know neither of these things are going to happen.

These changes will likely be in the form of the guaranteed basic income and increased taxation on companies to support that (at least for the more near future, going further beyond bigger changes will be required). Companies, that will see massively increased profits when they no longer need to pay the salaries of large numbers of people.

It's not a question of if, but rather when. Unless one is a complete hermit when it comes to technology, it should be easy to see how just about every job out there can and will be replaced by AI/robotics. For most industries, this is just around the corner.
The way our society is setup now, it can't function without people having jobs that bring them a pay cheque. A world built upon people buying shit we don't need can't function when no one has money.
So here we are now, a complete dystopian future science fiction nightmare can easily become our reality if major changes are not put into place.

There's not really any way around it, it's either adapt to change or die out.

[Gestalt]

all we need is more unmotivated bums that sit on there assess getting high and aalwasy broke and short of rent. They need a kick in the ass, not more of these free lunchers on bs disability getting $1600 a month

[Sugarphreak]

...

[Mista Bob]

Never said anything about ending humanity.
Just that society will fall apart when no one has jobs/money, because people are too stubborn and greedy to realize that the current capitalistic model isn't sustainable.

I'd have to agree that lack of resources due to overpopulation, is what will end humanity.
Wonder how many years we have until the USA invades us for our water? :P

[Sugarphreak]

...

[J-hop]

My bad, I think I misinterpreted your post! haha

Water isn't as scarce a resource as people think, any city by the ocean can just desalinate as much as they need. It will be either an energy or food crisis, likely due to a combination of failures that all coincide. It isn't like it will come on suddenly, it will start initially with governments shutting down borders to halt immigration, followed by a lot of skirmishing over resources. That is how I see it playing out... but again, hopefully not in our lifetime.

Hopefully population just plateaus worldwide and we avoid all that.

[kertejud2]

How much booze can you buy for $12k?

1200 bananas.

[Xtrema]

This is starting to sound like communism...

Even if all work is done by AI... how does the government leverage that into enough revenue to cover the living costs for the masses without pushing industry out of the country completely?

Well given all our jobs are already in China and Mexico, AI or not business or at least jobs ain't staying.

Like I said, if average income of individual Canadians are $40K, government guarantees $12K and business only have to pay $28K, pretty good incentive to stick around or at least delay the inevitable.

[ZenOps]

This is more inline with the US form of welfare. SNAP food benefits which are denominated in US currency where you are able to buy things like lobster (if you so wished) with $150 per month worth of benefits.

Which is the exact opposite of what the US is doing now, they are pushing for a Canadian system of food benefits, where only excess and unwanted foodstuffs are put in a harvest box and doled out and not really given a dollar amount persay - its just a loaf of bread given out as requested.

Personally I think the system of "harvest boxes", the current Canadian system of food banks is better than just giving out money - Because if you give people free money for free food - they inevitably buy the fried chicken with soda pop and not the oatmeal with apples and place extra strain on healthcare.

Beggars should not be choosers, or there is little incentive to be a worker. But then again, since the AI is that much better than any human worker - does incentive really matter in a world where the machine can build things better and faster than any human hands or mind can?

Human compensation for effort (or not) will be a huge factor going forward. Rich people tend to not compensate effort, but results. You can have a human hand put down every grain of sand, and flip every pixel on your computer screen on and off by hand, and you will keep everyone employed, "productive", and maybe even happy - but if the machine can do it - I say let the machine do it. Same with dumpling balls, loaves of bread, and delivering mail messages around the globe - let the machine do it, don't be stupid people.

I suggest to billionaires that they reward the first person who can make a machine that can lay down an exact duplicate of sand mandala in less than 15 minutes. I know for sure its completely possible.

Fj2dA_ncPg4

GUdnrtnjT5Q

[ZenOps]

As a repeat: I totally believe the upcoming wave of hurdles to overcome are not a question of left or right (communism or capitalism) Both ideaologies are now irrelevant in face of technological progress replacing the human mind.

Capitalist incentive means nothing to the machine, Communist ideologies mean nothing to the machine. The machine is the machine, and in many ways a government based on and bickering over issues based on left OR right is completely irrelevant. Its like arguing buggy whips OR spurs, when the automobile is just about to be made.

"Humans arguing over whether they should move their bishop or pawn, when they are playing against the AI that has never lost a billion chess matches out of a billion"

I for one, bow down to our AI overlords.

[speedog]

Perused this thread and am still wondering whatever happened to being responsible for one's self. Someone commented earlier in this thread that adult kids should leave the nest once their adult/initial career training is complete, been there done that. All of our four kids are out of the nest, I left home before I was 17 and never moved back, my wife was 19 and did the same.

EI, yeah I realize it has a purpose but it seems all too easy for many to languish on it as opposed to making a serious right hand turn in the career. What SP is doing is a right hand turn, kudos to him but many do not have the balls to do such. I know or know of far too many people on AISH who do not have to be but they have become comfortable living off of that and just seem to not want for more.

In the news and in forums people complaining of not being able to get work and yet all of my kids, myself and my wife have had no problem attaining and maintaining employment and in my current profession choice, there is a ridiculous lack of people to do the work. But it seems that many people are either afraid of or are above what they consider lesser jobs, work that is beneath them.

A guaranteed basic income will not solve anything, there'll be the same people on the system, just a different system. My Dad, at almost 83, has finally decided to semi-retire - money is not an issue for him, health is not an issue, he has just decided to pass the reins and still is being retained in an advisory role in the commercial real estate industry he has been very successful and respected in.

Has having a work ethic just become a bad thing?

[HiTempguy1]

Bits and bytes can be produced cheaply or almost for free.

With entertainment being so cheap, its easy to get lost in a system that doesn"t require anything from you.

Modern day life is also very different. Even "low income" housing nowadays is "nice". On EI or AISH, you are going to have food on the table, internet, probably a cell phone, and enough leftover to buy dope to smoke.

What more could a person want? Self drive is both nature and nurture, and as is self evident, most people just aren't very good parents. If you are an idle, forgotten kid in a family, I can totally see how it would be so easy to continue on with life after 18 as you did growing up; never doing anything of importance, never having goals to strive for, just living for the sake of living.

[phreezee]

Finland ends their UBI experiment and concludes they should be cutting benefits instead.


Finland has actually reversed course on that front this year, adopting rules that threaten to cut benefits for jobless people unless they actively look for work or engage in job training.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/24/business/finland-universal-basic-income.html

[Antonito]

Finland ends their UBI experiment and concludes they should be cutting benefits instead.



https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/24/business/finland-universal-basic-income.html I’m not sure what they were expecting, from what I read it was mostly given to people who were simply unemployed, rather than people who were underemployed or had extenuating circumstances

Universal income has theoretical benefits, like cost saving due to less bureacracy, giving opportunities to people who want to go further but can barely get by on shitty jobs, or the possible AI-induced jobless future. Giving money to basement dwelling neckbeards in hopes that they’d log off of 4 Chan and deal with the real world has never been high on the list of possible outcomes

[ZenOps]

They have to reward something. Basement dweller playing Fortnite is now famous for making $300,000 a week as a YouTube streamer, humping the air while he virtually kills people. However, it is capitalism as it does seem to be what people want to watch and will spend time and money watching. To many, absolutely no different than watching people put pucks in nets or balls through hoops.

Now, some people will definitely start to question (if they aren't already questioning) the current system of monetary rewards. Millenials see playing video games as normal to be compensated millions of dollars for, while older people will do things like spend $140 million on an oil painting. In the truest sense this is Capitalism at its free-est, but that does not necessarily mean its productive or even all that desirable.

jAu1ZsTCA64

Computer eSports may have a very short life. The AI will excel any anything requiring massive brains and sub millisecond twitch reflexes, but no physical limbs.

zJDJgFQqWSI

A "budget" steamer for a small indie developer? 5,000 Euros per hour.

[ZenOps]

I do see mincome as being directly in-line with current Trump policy.

Current Trump policy being: Make everything more expensive so that its easier to pay off debts just by sheer dollar numbers. It can work, if done properly.