cps allegedly beat up old man in traffic stop

[gwill]

New article floating around showing crazy photos of an old man in extremely rough shape allegedly from cps. Guy gets pulled over, hes allegedly beat up and arrested but instead of going to jail hes sent to the hospital, with no charges being laid and let go.

I can understand a cop doing his job where someone resists arrest but in this case there were no charges laid. Seems pretty extreme.

http://globalnews.ca/news/3404590/calgary-man-alleges-police-punched-him-during-traffic-stop-cps-disputes-his-version-of-events/

[Seth1968]

CPS have set up a meeting with Joyce for Wednesday morning. Joyce said, at this point, he cannot afford a lawyer.

Now that it has been made public, Pro Bono will be happening.

[TL911]

Seen the pictures on Global News last night, it's pretty bad.

[Hallowed_point]

No charges being laid seems very suspicious. It would appear that this is an "I won't tell if you don't" type deal. He certainly doesn't look like the type to start fighting. But I'll wait to hear the other side of the story.

[revelations]

Definitely more to the story, but even if they were involved in the drug trade - pounding on a 120lb, partially disabled, person is not what I would consider appropriate conduct.

[Mitsu3000gt]

The chances they just randomly beat him down are basically zero. I would bet anything that he did something. Whether or not he deserved that level of a beating we will never know - maybe they thought he had a weapon or maybe he made a threat and the police have to act accordingly without taking chances.

[born2workoncars]

Wow. Disgusting.

https://shawglobalnews.files.wordpress.com/2017/04/image6.jpeg

[lilmira]

Uncle Leo?

[Swank]

^Hello! :rofl:

[jabjab]

Originally posted by Mitsu3000gt
The chances they just randomly beat him down are basically zero. I would bet anything that he did something. Whether or not he deserved that level of a beating we will never know - maybe they thought he had a weapon or maybe he made a threat and the police have to act accordingly without taking chances.

Well of course he didn't deserve this level of beating. You don't repeatably hit someone enough to sustain that amount of damage to later say " I wanted to make sure he didn't have a weapon" Cops should be trained to handle these situations better. The fact that he was NOT charged with anything kind of shows what he was being stopped for was not that serious.

[Tik-Tok]

Originally posted by lilmira
Uncle Leo?

CPS excuse - "He just kept staring at us with a threatening, angry eyebrow."

It's too bad there weren't some sort of device that officers should be forced to wear, that would prove these kinds of allegations to be true or false.

[Rocket1k78]

Originally posted by Seth1968


Now that it has been made public, Pro Bono will be happening.

Seen this on the news today and thought the exact same thing. There definitely is 2 sides but with no charges laid and a beating this bad on an old disabled person it looks super suspicious on CPS part

[Despair*]

Wow, that's pretty extreme. He was that much of a problem that they couldn't restrain him without a 15 min beat down? 120 lbs...

[spikerS]

Originally posted by jabjab


Well of course he didn't deserve this level of beating. You don't repeatably hit someone enough to sustain that amount of damage to later say " I wanted to make sure he didn't have a weapon" Cops should be trained to handle these situations better. The fact that he was NOT charged with anything kind of shows what he was being stopped for was not that serious.

Or...maybe, the guy did something to warrant a take down during a stop for a relatively minor infraction and got a serious case of road rash. The cops then chose not to charge him thinking dude is already in a rough spot and will need medical attention which is punishment enough, no need to rub salt in the wound for running that red light.

[jabjab]

The sad thing is that NOTHING will happen. They will come up with a way of saying that it was justified. That is what happens when the police do an investigation on its own people. The system is messed. This has been happening for years.

I sincerely hope the cops that did this get fired and not just on a paid leave and this guy gets some sort of compensation for this.

[FraserB]

I'll wait for the other side of the story to come out. Chances are there is dash cam and body mic evidence.

If the story of that HuffPo blogger is any indication, there is no point in ever jumping to conclusions

[Xtrema]

However, the version of events we currently have is very different from that being portrayed by this individual – hence the importance of a thorough investigation. One thing we can confirm is that this is not a case of mistaken identity, the individual was known to CPS and was arrested as part of an ongoing ALERT investigation.

Looks like it's someone with some frequent flyer miles with CPS, so it may be provoked.. They really need body cameras for cases like this.

[Seth1968]

Seems to me there might have been a struggle in the car, and police might say he was trying to flee. Reasons being:

1) He says he put the car in neutral. Why wouldn't he just say he pulled over, and why would he put it in neutral and not in park?

2) He says his foot got stuck in the peddles.

3) He says the engine was revving.

[schocker]

Originally posted by jabjab
The sad thing is that NOTHING will happen. They will come up with a way of saying that it was justified. That is what happens when the police do an investigation on its own people. The system is messed. This has been happening for years.

I sincerely hope the cops that did this get fired and not just on a paid leave and this guy gets some sort of compensation for this.
ASIRT usually does the investigations....

[ExtraSlow]

People make me angry, I would beat the scumbag too.

[FraserB]

Originally posted by jabjab
The sad thing is that NOTHING will happen. They will come up with a way of saying that it was justified. That is what happens when the police do an investigation on its own people. The system is messed. This has been happening for years.

I sincerely hope the cops that did this get fired and not just on a paid leave and this guy gets some sort of compensation for this.

Case closed guys.

Jabjab has review the in car video, listened to all the recordings, interviewed the witnesses and used his extensive law enforcement experience to draw a conclusion

[infamous]

Originally posted by Seth1968
Seems to me there might have been a struggle in the car, and police might say he was trying to flee. Reasons being:

1) He says he put the car in neutral. Why wouldn't he just say he pulled over, and why would he put it in neutral and not in park?

2) He says his foot got stuck in the peddles.

3) He says the engine was revving.


1. What if his car was a manual transmission with no park?

2. If his car was manual he had three pedals down there, not sure how this went down but definitely plausible.

3. With his injuries I'm sure CPS wasn't nice about getting him out of the car, could easily happened while the perp was being helped out of the vehicle lol.

[jabjab]

Originally posted by FraserB


Case closed guys.

Jabjab has review the in car video, listened to all the recordings, interviewed the witnesses and used his extensive law enforcement experience to draw a conclusion

and FraserB thinks that the old man must have said something or done something to piss of the Cops and if you piss off Cops and they can't control their anger its ok to get a beat down like this.

He wasn't found to have done anything criminally due to the lack of charges but hey, he must have done SOMETHING to get beat up. Lets start looking for things to justify it.

[ZenOps]

9ZSoJDUD_bU

[Seth1968]

Originally posted by infamous



1. What if his car was a manual transmission with no park?

2. If his car was manual he had three pedals down there, not sure how this went down but definitely plausible.

3. With his injuries I'm sure CPS wasn't nice about getting him out of the car, could easily happened while the perp was being helped out of the vehicle lol.

That's why I started that post with, "there might...".

Bottom line, the guy makes a point of all that, and it's probably because there was a struggle in the car and/or he was trying to flee.

[FraserB]

Originally posted by jabjab


and FraserB thinks that the old man must have said something or done something to piss of the Cops and if you piss off Cops and they can't control their anger its ok to get a beat down like this.

He wasn't found to have done anything criminally due to the lack of charges but hey, he must have done SOMETHING to get beat up. Lets start looking for things to justify it.

There hasn't been an investigation yet and aside from a short statement from CPS, the only story we have is from someone who was known to police, under investigation by ALERT and in the process of being arrested when the alleged assault occurred.

Would make sense to at least wait for ASIRT to investigate before saying the cops should be fired.

[jabjab]

Originally posted by FraserB


There hasn't been an investigation yet and aside from a short statement from CPS, the only story we have is from someone who was known to police, under investigation by ALERT and in the process of being arrested when the alleged assault occurred.

Would make sense to at least wait for ASIRT to investigate before saying the cops should be fired.

My point is that the ASIRT will not find evidence that the police did anything wrong. The investigation will be flawed before it even begins. I just don't see how its appropriate police behavior to cause that much damage to an old mans face when he wasn't found to be criminally responsible for anything. Someone of that age probably could be fatally injured by getting hit with blows like that and for what?

[Seth1968]

Originally posted by jabjab
I just don't see how its appropriate police behavior to cause that much damage to an old mans face when he wasn't found to be criminally responsible for anything. Someone of that age probably could be fatally injured by getting hit with blows like that and for what?

Agreed.

It's hard to imagine "another side of the story" that's going to justify such a beating on 120lb old fragile man.

[rx7boi]

Damn that guy got his ass beat.

[Seth1968]

Originally posted by rx7boi
Damn that guy got his ass beat.

Nice ninja edit to flip flop.

[FraserB]

Originally posted by jabjab


My point is that the ASIRT will not find evidence that the police did anything wrong. The investigation will be flawed before it even begins. I just don't see how its appropriate police behavior to cause that much damage to an old mans face when he wasn't found to be criminally responsible for anything. Someone of that age probably could be fatally injured by getting hit with blows like that and for what?

He was released without charges, not "wasn't found to be criminally responsible for anything". Big difference.

Again, there is no evidence that has been released and no investigation. Unless you feel the cops should be charged/fired based only on the word of someone who might have a reason to spin the encounter.

[rx7boi]

Originally posted by Seth1968


Nice ninja edit to flip flop.

Flip flop what? I haven't given an opinion on the matter yet but unlike you, douchey mccunt, I don't constantly validate myself by commenting on everything. I don't need to run shit by you, least of all deciding what I want to post or not post. You probably didn't even catch what I wrote before you got on your high horse accusing me of a ninja edit :rofl: My point wasn't to say whether or not his injuries were justified but to imply that simply assuming everything will be swept under the rug right away isn't the way things work.

But since you called me out, I'll post what I was originally going to direct at jabjab:


Originally posted by jabjab


and FraserB thinks that the old man must have said something or done something to piss of the Cops and if you piss off Cops and they can't control their anger its ok to get a beat down like this.

He wasn't found to have done anything criminally due to the lack of charges but hey, he must have done SOMETHING to get beat up. Lets start looking for things to justify it.

And if ASIRT does find evidence of police wrongdoing, what are you going to say?

" :rolleyes: I guess they finally did their job right for once."

If nothing happens, you'll assume it's the old boys club at play and if something happens, it won't change your view of investigatory bodies.

Nothing's ever good enough, apparently.

[gwill]

the guy wasnt charged with anything yet the cops are justified for beating the guy? I must be missing something. If he wasnt stopping or complying you could charge him with something. All these hypotheticals of the guy doing something to be beat would be plausible if he was charged with something.

Its just one guys allegations but the facts that are known dont put cps in a good light. CPS's carefully crafted response seems like it was released to dismiss the guys credibility almost as though theres an excuse for beating someone who wasnt charged with a crime.

[VTEXTC]

Originally posted by gwill
the guy wasnt charged with anything yet the cops are justified for beating the guy? I must be missing something. If he wasnt stopping or complying you could charge him with something. All these hypotheticals of the guy doing something to be beat would be plausible if he was charged with something.

Its just one guys allegations but the facts that are known dont put cps in a good light. CPS's carefully crafted response seems like it was released to dismiss the guys credibility almost as though theres an excuse for beating someone who wasnt charged with a crime.

It would appear that the injuries were sustained during the effecting of an arrest. Arrests require subjective and objective grounds, and do not always result in charges being laid, which require sufficient investigation and the presentation of evidence. It's conceivable that grounds for the arrest existed, but not enough evidence for the laying of charges. In all, it's unfortunate that the poor fellow suffered the injuries that he did.

[darthVWader]

Originally posted by Seth1968


Agreed.

It's hard to imagine "another side of the story" that's going to justify such a beating on 120lb old fragile man.

Maybe he had his ass beat just before he was pulled over? Maybe while being restrained he kept hitting his own head on the ground. Maybe while in the car he was banging his head on the glass. Maybe he bruises super easy from some meds he takes and on and on and on.

[gwill]

cps released a statement confirming theyre members will use justifiable force on their arrests. This isnt someone who hurt himself or made up a fake arrest story or cps would have said that. The only thing not confirmed is what type of force cps justifies during an arrest where no charges get laid.

If the guy resisted arrest then charge him for that. Was an officers life in danger? Then charge him approrpriately. Neither happened so its rather confusing how you justify the guys severe head trauma.

[rx7_turbo2]

Originally posted by gwill
Then charge him approrpriately. Neither happened so its rather confusing how you justify the guys severe head trauma.
Did you even read VTEXTC's post :dunno:

[spikerS]

Originally posted by Seth1968


Agreed.

It's hard to imagine "another side of the story" that's going to justify such a beating on 120lb old fragile man.

Just for the record, the worst beating I ever got was from a guy that was like a buck 20, and I was like double his weight in pretty decent shape.

I find the little fuckers are wirey and fast. Can get out of damn near any hold you try to put them in.

[phil98z24]

Originally posted by gwill
cps released a statement confirming theyre members will use justifiable force on their arrests. This isnt someone who hurt himself or made up a fake arrest story or cps would have said that. The only thing not confirmed is what type of force cps justifies during an arrest where no charges get laid.

If the guy resisted arrest then charge him for that. Was an officers life in danger? Then charge him approrpriately. Neither happened so its rather confusing how you justify the guys severe head trauma.

That isn't how it works. You don't charge people after the fact to justify an arrest, whether force was used or not. That's incredibly backwards and simply not how it works. Others have explained it to you already, so I'm not going to expand on it - VTEXTC's post did that quite well.

[spikerS]

Originally posted by phil98z24


That isn't how it works. You don't charge people after the fact to justify an arrest, whether force was used or not. That's incredibly backwards and simply not how it works. Others have explained it to you already, so I'm not going to expand on it - VTEXTC's post did that quite well.

Don't even try Phil. You keep getting baited by the same idiots over and over. You are getting jaded over it, and I miss having the CPS around more often answering random questions.

I don't want to see you fade away like Dayglow and party.

[ExtraSlow]

some of them are masters at baiting.

[Traffic_Cop]

Everyone jumping on the "cops beat up the poor old man" band wagon. Have any of you at all read the CPS statement?, and furthermore do you not all remember a similar incident a few years ago with a dentist near Camrose and an Alberta Sheriff?. The video showed a very different picture, and the Sheriff sued. Don't be so quick to judge. This is a reason I don't post on here much. The majority are cop bashers hiding behind a keyboard, with nothing more than an opinion and no facts.

CPS statement: “The version of events we currently have is very different from that being portrayed by this individual – hence the importance of a thorough investigation.”

[gwill]

the guy was known to police and part of an alert investigation of which they clearly botched by arresting him without proper evidence. In the process the guys severely injured, then released and sent to the hospital.

If someones severely injured and not charged shouldnt the police come forward with facts?

Both sides are throwing out allegations but only one person was hospitalized.

[msommers]

Just another reason why cops need body cams.

[revelations]

Originally posted by Traffic_Cop
Everyone jumping on the "cops beat up the poor old man" band wagon. Have any of you at all read the CPS statement?, and furthermore do you not all remember a similar incident a few years ago with a dentist near Camrose and an Alberta Sheriff?. The video showed a very different picture, and the Sheriff sued. Don't be so quick to judge. This is a reason I don't post on here much. The majority are cop bashers hiding behind a keyboard, with nothing more than an opinion and no facts.

CPS statement: “The version of events we currently have is very different from that being portrayed by this individual – hence the importance of a thorough investigation.”

That was one case where a member SUED someone over their conduct..... lol

[JRSC00LUDE]

Originally posted by gwill
the guy was known to police and part of an alert investigation of which they clearly botched by arresting him without proper evidence. In the process the guys severely injured, then released and sent to the hospital.

If someones severely injured and not charged shouldnt the police come forward with facts?

Both sides are throwing out allegations but only one person was hospitalized.


Your personal history has you so biased, and that's fine, but you're smarter than this.

[Traffic_Cop]

Originally posted by revelations


That was one case where a member SUED someone over their conduct..... lol

So what's your point here?. Unfortunately many departments will not allow its members to sue, or even charge someone for mischief even if the allegations are blatant lies. The fear is it will stop members of the public with legitimate claims coming forward.

[btimbit]

I'll wait to hear the other side of the story before jumping down anyone's throats here.

I have a friend who is a cop in Toronto who personally got accused of doing something he didn't do by a member of the public. I won't go into too many details but basically my friend got attacked, defended himself, backup showed up and it took 3 of them to get this guy on the ground and restrained. Then a few days later, out comes the police brutality nonsense. Guy had this whole other story about what happened. Even when it's so obvious that the guy is making crap up they have to investigate, and then the media got a hold of it and it really took off. Next thing you know my friends life is hell for several weeks, getting accused of stuff not just from the public, but from colleagues as well. Lucky for him there ended up being a camera near where it happened that showed the truth and it was able to all go away.

Personally, if I was a cop, I'd have a hard time trusting anyone in the public these days. I remember a few years ago I was at a train station and this crazy girl was absolutely smacking the crap out of some guy, so my girlfriend at the time called the cops. When they show up this girl absolutely lost her shit, starting yelling at the cops and when they tried to calm her down she slapped one of them, screaming "Get away from me, you can't touch me, I'll sue, fuck you!" yadda yadda yadda.

So the cops tried to get a hold of her, and that was the moment another train comes in and a bunch of people get off. Well these people didn't see what happened to lead up to any of this, they just see 2 cops struggling with this crazy cunt. So sure enough there's a bunch of dumbasses in that new group that start protesting, saying they're being too rough with her, one guy pulls out the cell phone camera, etc. I wanted to lose it on these idiots, they didn't see anything else that happened and didn't know that this bitch should be in jail. Sure enough, seeing that she's getting this kind of 'support' from onlookers just makes the girl start fighting back even more, luckily then was when more officers arrived and were able to get the crazy broad into a car.




Always two sides to the story folks. People see the bleeding hearts on social media and think they can profit off of this type of thing and it's fucking disgusting. I'm not saying police brutality doesn't happen but after seeing these stories, the one from a few years ago with that dentist in Camrose, and there was even another one a few weeks ago in Edmonton, I always wait to hear both sides of the story. I definitely trust cops more than I trust your average jackass, that's for sure

[revelations]

Originally posted by Traffic_Cop


So what's your point here?. Unfortunately many departments will not allow its members to sue, or even charge someone for mischief even if the allegations are blatant lies. The fear is it will stop members of the public with legitimate claims coming forward.

My point was that it was pretty appalling behaviour from the complainant to warrant a civil lawsuit from a LEO.

[Sugarphreak]

...

[phil98z24]

Originally posted by gwill
the guy was known to police and part of an alert investigation of which they clearly botched by arresting him without proper evidence. In the process the guys severely injured, then released and sent to the hospital.

If someones severely injured and not charged shouldnt the police come forward with facts?

Both sides are throwing out allegations but only one person was hospitalized.

How do you know it was botched and they didn't have evidence? I always find it interesting how you seem to know more than the rest of us and can draw a hard conclusion about all matters police related. Please, divulge to us your insider knowledge.

[Seth1968]

Originally posted by Sugarphreak
The optics certainly do not look good, but we have all seen stories like this turn out to be something entirely different. I kind of have a feeling this is how it will play out.



I watched the video where he pulls out... you can't really see if it is a manual there, but when he goes to drive away he clearly shifts and prepares to drive forward while the car is still moving backwards which is something you can only really do in a manual.

If it is manual, then putting it in neutral with the e-brake on is really the only thing you can do unless you turn the engine off

Whether or not the car is a manual is irrelevant to my point.

Read my 2 posts on that again.

[cancer man]

I think cps after incidents like this should be tested for steroids.
Roid rage.Then again he was lucky he could've fallen down the stairs or pushed thru elevator doors and down the shaft or his cell door might of been left unlocked. Lots of mistakes under custody. Heads or Tails.

[jabjab]

Originally posted by cancer man
I think cps after incidents like this should be tested for steroids.
Roid rage.Then again he was lucky he could've fallen down the stairs or pushed thru elevator doors and down the shaft or his cell door might of been left unlocked. Lots of mistakes under custody. Heads or Tails.

I agree, they think they are above the law. I've witnessed too many situations where the police attitude is worse of then a juiced up bouncer standing at electric avenue.

With the use of social media now you see so many videos of police misconduct (most of them in the states) but there are cases in Canada as well. If police want a better reputation they should get rid of the bad apples instead of protecting them. If they don't then we assume all of them are bad, similar to a farmer who if he doesn't get rid of his bad apples the whole crop will eventually be bad.

There also needs to be more training for CPS, they are involved in many drug overdose deaths where they can't tell the difference of someone paranoid on drugs or if they are trying to resist arrest causing fatal heart attacks. I feel that they always resort to violence or force for EVERY situation and they place themselves in these situations where they are being judged for their amount of force.

Stop hiring nerds that were picked on and start lifting weights and feel like they have something to prove.

[Hallowed_point]

I also wonder what CPS's policy is on HGH/Steroids. I've seen some suspiciously jacked members who don't exactly look natural for 40-50 year old men.

Further to btimbit's comment about dealing with an out of control woman, he's bang on. One of the worst nights I had as a security guard was dealing with a 120 lb native woman with long nails. The optics of it are always terrible, because joe public tends to side with the woman, regardless of the crazy shit that she did to cause the end result. Thank god this was before camera phones became so common. Everyone wants to be the world star type bystander these days when it's just a case of a shitty situation dealing with someone who won't cooperate.

[Seth1968]

Originally posted by jabjab


They think they are above the law / snip / stop hiring nerds that were picked on and start lifting weights and feel like they have something to prove.

Exactly.

Let's face the truth. You're delusion if you think the typical cop's motivation to becoming a a cop is to "Serve & Protect". A couple of true motivators?

1) Low self esteem typically caused by authoritarian parents and or bullies. As an adult, they retaliate against the pain by entering into a field in which they are the authoritarian aggressor.

2) Oddly similar, yet somewhat opposite to the above. That is, a childhood bully that enters the field so he can continue to be a bully.

[lilmira]

http://globalnews.ca/news/3407779/calgary-man-says-police-apologize-following-allegations-of-violence-during-traffic-stop/

case closed?

[Seth1968]

Originally posted by lilmira
http://globalnews.ca/news/3407779/calgary-man-says-police-apologize-following-allegations-of-violence-during-traffic-stop/

case closed?

Well well well.

[Hallowed_point]

I'm glad that an apology was issued and that the nominal costs will be covered. But I don't like how it appears that there was misconduct and this behavior will likely be repeated. Tough to comment with the lack of information on what exactly transpired though.

[Seth1968]

Originally posted by Hallowed_point
I'm glad that an apology was issued and that the nominal costs will be covered.

If the victim is going to accept the services from all the lawyers knocking down his door today, then us taxpayers are going to pay a hell of a lot more in "nominal cost".

[jabjab]

Originally posted by lilmira
http://globalnews.ca/news/3407779/calgary-man-says-police-apologize-following-allegations-of-violence-during-traffic-stop/

case closed?

What a chump, 500 bucks and an apology...CPS won this one.

[Seth1968]

Originally posted by jabjab


What a chump, 500 bucks and an apology...CPS won this one.

Not necessarily. Given his comments on not being able to afford a lawyer, he doesn't know much about the legal system. See my previous post.

[jabjab]

Originally posted by Seth1968


Not necessarily. Given his comments on not being able to afford a lawyer, he doesn't know much about the legal system. See my previous post.

It's unfortunate, was hoping a lawyer would have jumped in to take this case but at the same time the legal system isn't as squeaky clean as everyone thinks. An Alberta lawyer wouldn't risk his name of challenging the police as they need each other and judges for bigger cases where people pay big bucks.

[VTEXTC]

Originally posted by Seth1968


Exactly.

Let's face the truth. You're delusion if you think the typical cop's motivation to becoming a a cop is to "Serve & Protect". A couple of true motivators?

1) Low self esteem typically caused by authoritarian parents and or bullies. As an adult, they retaliate against the pain by entering into a field in which they are the authoritarian aggressor.

2) Oddly similar, yet somewhat opposite to the above. That is, a childhood bully that enters the field so he can continue to be a bully.

Really? Any substantive research or data to back this up?

[Hallowed_point]

Originally posted by VTEXTC
Really? Any substantive research or data to back this up?

:werd: It's not a job for everyone. And it's a job that we all need people to do regardless of individual's acting badly while in a uniform. I don't buy his explanation either.

[gwill]

I found it odd CPS wanted to trash this guy in the media by painting his past in a negative light and others here used it to excuse what happened. I guess with the apology and cps reimbursing this guy that people can maybe accept things got a bit out of control??

Maybe phil can let us know how often cps pays for impound charges of people they arrest. Do police apologize to every criminal they arrest?

[jabjab]

Originally posted by gwill
I found it odd CPS wanted to trash this guy in the media by painting his past in a negative light and others here used it to excuse what happened. I guess with the apology and cps reimbursing this guy that people can maybe accept things got a bit out of control??

Maybe phil can let us know how often cps pays for impound charges of people they arrest. Do police apologize to every criminal they arrest?

Don't forget they shook his hand after, let's all be friends after I kick the shit out of you :bullshit:

[Seth1968]

Originally posted by VTEXTC


Really? Any substantive research or data to back this up?

Uhh..the real world?

There would be no benefit for any study group to pursue such a notion. Furthermore, even if they empirically proved it, the results would likely go unpublished.

[revelations]

Originally posted by Seth1968


Exactly.

Let's face the truth. You're delusion if you think the typical cop's motivation to becoming a a cop is to "Serve & Protect". A couple of true motivators?

1) Low self esteem typically caused by authoritarian parents and or bullies. As an adult, they retaliate against the pain by entering into a field in which they are the authoritarian aggressor.

2) Oddly similar, yet somewhat opposite to the above. That is, a childhood bully that enters the field so he can continue to be a bully.

Not sure what American TV shows you've been watching, but based on my (limited) experience being with the RCMP - that is not the typical case with their members.

I can tell you though that while most members start out OK - the job and the BS politics (RCMP) change many people for the worse unfortunately - but I disagree with the statements above.

[vengie]

I find it quite hilarious the amount of people in this thread trashing CPS.

I would love to see you walk in their shoes for the day, see the worst of the worst that humanity has to offer, and still stand on your high horse.

Did they go a little overboard on this case? Maybe... Are there situations in the states where the officer is a little trigger happy? maybe... But when your life is literally on the line, day in and day out, when you are HATED by every single member of the public (until they need you of course), those tendencies may creep into their reactions.

Is it right? no, can we recognize their may be an issue? yes!

The psychological toll that would take on an individual would be immense.

There are over 835,000 police officers in North America (according to google). If there are 30 cases a month in North America of justified police misconduct (estimate based on news) that equates to 360 cases per year... Divide that by 835,000 and you have 0.0004% of the ENTIRE police force acting out of line. That is likely a better ratio than any of the companies you work for, your peer groups etc...

At the end of the day, if I was an officer, I would do EVERYTHING in my power to ensure I returned home at the end of my shift.


Phil, and Traffic Cop, I truly respect what you guys do, and thank you for your service.

[revelations]

Originally posted by Hallowed_point
Further to btimbit's comment about dealing with an out of control woman, he's bang on. One of the worst nights I had as a security guard was dealing with a 120 lb native woman with long nails. The optics of it are always terrible, because joe public tends to side with the woman, regardless of the crazy shit that she did to cause the end result. Thank god this was before camera phones became so common. Everyone wants to be the world star type bystander these days when it's just a case of a shitty situation dealing with someone who won't cooperate.

:werd: I was jogging through a park in Vancouver (Central Park) when I came across 2 RCMP guys trying to take down this 100lb female crack head that was causing a disturbance in the playground (kids, families).

The two members were unable to, at first, get her on the ground - I watched for about 10 seconds and then I started jogging towards them in order to help but about the time I approached them she ended up face in the grass.

She was a complete nut job and was able to resist about 400lbs of force being applied.

[Seth1968]

Originally posted by vengie


I would love to see you walk in their shoes for the day, see the worst of the worst that humanity has to offer.

When your life is literally on the line, day in and day out, when you are HATED by every single member of the public (until they need you of course), those tendencies may creep into their reactions.


No one forces them to have to endure any of that.

[vengie]

Originally posted by Seth1968


No one forces them to have to endure any of that.

Just imagine the state of society if they chose not to :thumbsup: be thankful someone is.

[Rat Fink]

.

[Seth1968]

Originally posted by vengiecoiety.


Just imagine the state of society if they chose not to :thumbsup: be thankful someone is.

That's an interesting thought experiment.

Valid arguments could be made that the resulting vigilantism would result in a much more civil and safe society.

[phil98z24]

Originally posted by jabjab


I agree, they think they are above the law. I've witnessed too many situations where the police attitude is worse of then a juiced up bouncer standing at electric avenue.

With the use of social media now you see so many videos of police misconduct (most of them in the states) but there are cases in Canada as well. If police want a better reputation they should get rid of the bad apples instead of protecting them. If they don't then we assume all of them are bad, similar to a farmer who if he doesn't get rid of his bad apples the whole crop will eventually be bad.

There also needs to be more training for CPS, they are involved in many drug overdose deaths where they can't tell the difference of someone paranoid on drugs or if they are trying to resist arrest causing fatal heart attacks. I feel that they always resort to violence or force for EVERY situation and they place themselves in these situations where they are being judged for their amount of force.

Stop hiring nerds that were picked on and start lifting weights and feel like they have something to prove.

Lol. Ok. You clearly haven't a clue about what training is received, our hiring practices, nor any real world experience with this. It's easy to talk smack when you are behind the comfort of your keyboard and can armchair QB it, but until you actually know how we are trained and what we deal with in this situations, then your poorly formed opinion is just that.

I won't even address this talk of many drug overdose deaths, etc. I'd like to see the numbers to back up your case, especially when it comes to our specific interactions with people exhibiting signs of ED or drug induced psychosis and why we used force, if at all. I feel confident you don't have that information, but when you do get your hands on it, we can chat.

[vengie]

Originally posted by Seth1968


That's an interesting thought experiment.

Valid arguments could be made that the resulting vigilantism would result in a much more civil and safe society.

For sure, but the counter argument could be made just as easily.

Its a slippery slope. For now, lets just all be happy its not something we need to worry about.

[Seth1968]

Originally posted by Rat Fink


You actually believe this garbage you spew?

Yes. I'm certain I believe my beliefs.

[VTEXTC]

Originally posted by Seth1968


Uhh..the real world?

There would be no benefit for any study group to pursue such a notion. Furthermore, even if they empirically proved it, the results would likely go unpublished.


Why would the research go unpublished? I'm sure there are hoards of MA and PHD students at some of the more revered post secondary institutions around the world who would love to study the social-psychological backgrounds of people who are involved in certain vocations.

[jabjab]

Originally posted by phil98z24


Lol. Ok. You clearly haven't a clue about what training is received, our hiring practices, nor any real world experience with this. It's easy to talk smack when you are behind the comfort of your keyboard and can armchair QB it, but until you actually know how we are trained and what we deal with in this situations, then your poorly formed opinion is just that.

I won't even address this talk of many drug overdose deaths, etc. I'd like to see the numbers to back up your case, especially when it comes to our specific interactions with people exhibiting signs of ED or drug induced psychosis and why we used force, if at all. I feel confident you don't have that information, but when you do get your hands on it, we can chat.

Ok Phil, I don't mind talking "smack" to you in person. My stance does not change regardless if I'm behind a screen or in front of people. Without getting into details, I've personally known two families who had to deal with death inquires regarding overdoes. In both cases the faces and body parts were bruised significantly. After each inquiry a suggestion is made for awareness of drug induced behaviors. These lives could have been saved if they knew what to do.

Other than personal experience and the few incidents you hear on the news it is hard to get more information as a lot of this is private record and doesn't get much media attention.

[Seth1968]

Originally posted by VTEXTC



Why would the research go unpublished? I'm sure there are hoards of MA and PHD students at some of the more revered post secondary institutions around the world who would love to study the social-psychological backgrounds of people who are involved in certain vocations.

Again, there is no motivation to pursue the theory in that there is no societal benefit, no institution would fund such a study, and the results would be incessantly debated and generally inconclusive. As such, only anecdotal evidence exists.

Heck, even with some deep Googlin, the only study I found was some obscure paper written back in 1972:

http://scholarlycommons.law.northwestern.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=5774&context=jclc

[rx7boi]

Originally posted by Seth1968


Uhh..the real world?

There would be no benefit for any study group to pursue such a notion. Furthermore, even if they empirically proved it, the results would likely go unpublished.

:rofl: You are such a clown.

Funny how you like to cry wolf about ninja edits and then slink away until it's convenient to return to the thread.

[Seth1968]

Originally posted by rx7boi


:rofl: You are such a clown.

Funny how you like to cry wolf about ninja edits and then slink away until it's convenient to return to the thread.

What the hell are you talking about?

[phil98z24]

Originally posted by jabjab


Ok Phil, I don't mind talking "smack" to you in person. My stance does not change regardless if I'm behind a screen or in front of people. Without getting into details, I've personally known two families who had to deal with death inquires regarding overdoes. In both cases the faces and body parts were bruised significantly. After each inquiry a suggestion is made for awareness of drug induced behaviors. These lives could have been saved if they knew what to do.

Other than personal experience and the few incidents you hear on the news it is hard to get more information as a lot of this is private record and doesn't get much media attention.

You've missed my entire point. This isn't about being tough, it's about being misinformed and casting judgement without any factual basis. I'm not saying you're an internet tough guy, relax.

You're going off anecdotal experiences and what your friends tell you, and the findings of every inquiry that say we could try to do better, but that isn't always practical.

You are coming at this as if you know, full stop, that our training sucks and we hire idiots with a bully complex who can't deal with these situations properly. You don't know the breadth of what is being dealt with, the details of each, or the subject/officer behavior at that given time, so it's not exactly fair to render an assessment on very little info. However, it's become abundantly clear you have no interest in the facts as they run contrary to your position, so take from it what you will.

Btw, there is a ton of information out there about this, you just aren't looking.

[Hallowed_point]

Originally posted by Seth1968
No one forces them to have to endure any of that.

Actually, we as a society do require them. Look back as far as medieval times. We have always had enforcers of the laws which are decided upon by civilized society. Thank god that someone does the job they do. I couldn't deal with seeing dead babies or any of the other horrible crap that they have to endure, that's for damn sure.

[Seth1968]

Originally posted by Hallowed_point


Actually, we as a society do require them. Look back as far as medieval times. We have always had enforcers of the laws which are decided upon by civilized society. Thank god that someone does the job they do. I couldn't deal with seeing dead babies or any of the other horrible crap that they have to endure, that's for damn sure.

That's a good point too.

Somebody has to take care of the shit. So in that sense, there may be a moral obligation and motivation. I'll give you that:)

[Seth1968]

If someone asked my why I wouldn't want to be a cop, the answer wouldn't be, "because I don't want to deal with severely irrational people", or "I want to hand out legit tickets, not BS ones".

My fundamental and most important reason would be, "I don't want to hurt society by being a puppet to bleeding hearts and the political propaganda machine"

Just 1 example:

1) Pedophile is released to the public (as usual). Cops warn that he shouldn't be released and will likely rape more kids and destroy more lives. Cops are forced? to release him.

Side note: Please don't counter with the lame and pathetic, "the parole board says he's ok now" argument.

[revelations]

Originally posted by Seth1968
Just 1 example:

1) Pedophile is released to the public (as usual). Cops warn that he shouldn't be released and will likely rape more kids and destroy more lives. Cops are forced? to release him.

Side note: Please don't counter with the lame and pathetic, "the parole board says he's ok now" argument.

Youre now blaming LEOs for the (often weak) criminal laws we have in Canada :confused:

[Hallowed_point]

Originally posted by revelations
Youre now blaming LEOs for the (often weak) criminal laws we have in Canada :confused:
:banghead:

[Seth1968]

Originally posted by revelations


Youre now blaming LEOs for the (often weak) criminal laws we have in Canada :confused:

I never blamed them at all.

I simply pointed out that they have to release such scum to the public, even though they want to serve and protect.

[vengie]

Originally posted by revelations


Youre now blaming LEOs for the (often weak) criminal laws we have in Canada :confused:

No, he is saying he wouldn't want to be a LEO due to the fundamentally flawed courts system that allow repeat offenders to simply walk out the doors for police to CONTINUALLY deal with.

[Hallowed_point]

Originally posted by Seth1968
I never blamed them at all.

I simply pointed out that they have to release such scum to the public, even though they want to serve and protect.

I'm not trying to attack you, but what is the solution? And if you bring up Anarchy , I'm out of this b&tch

Our legal system is far from perfect. Trust me, they don't like releasing them either. But this is Canada, where a criminal has to really cross the line to get a serious sentence.

[revelations]

Originally posted by Seth1968


I never blamed them at all.

I simply pointed out that they have to release such scum to the public, even though they want to serve and protect.

You had a (?) with the "cops are forced to release them" statement which implied to me that you were doubting their actions.

Yes, it burns many good LEOs to knowingly release such pieces of garbage back into the public.....

[Seth1968]

Originally posted by Hallowed_point


I'm not trying to attack you, but what is the solution? And if you bring up Anarchy , I'm out of this b&tch

Our legal system is far from perfect. Trust me, they don't like releasing them either. But this is Canada, where a criminal has to really cross the line to get a serious sentence.

No, not Anarchy.

All it requires are political actions that aren't based in self righteousness, hypocrisy and personal dogma. It's as simple as that.

But, that's a whole new topic.

[Hallowed_point]

Originally posted by Seth1968
No, not Anarchy.

All it requires are political actions that aren't based in self righteousness, hypocrisy and personal dogma. It's as simple as that.

But, that's a whole new topic.

Fair enough, but in the meantime this is what we have.

[Seth1968]

Phil,

Care to share your thoughts on what Hallowed_Point and I have been discussing?

[phil98z24]

Originally posted by Seth1968
Phil,

Care to share your thoughts on what Hallowed_Point and I have been discussing?

Sure, just going to need some time to go back through the thread, lol.

[Seth1968]

Originally posted by revelations


You had a (?) with the "cops are forced to release them" statement which implied to me that you were doubting their actions.

Ah yes, I now see why you thought that.

I used the question mark as I wasn't sure if the word forced was the correct one to use in the context. I should have explained it better.

[Seth1968]

Originally posted by phil98z24


Sure, just going to need some time to go back through the thread, lol.

Ok. Looking forward to your comments.

To avoid confusion, it starts on page 5 when I said this:


If someone asked my why I wouldn't want to be a cop, the answer wouldn't be, "because I don't want to deal with severely irrational people", or "I want to hand out legit tickets, not BS ones".

My fundamental and most important reason would be, "I don't want to hurt society by being a puppet to bleeding hearts and the political propaganda machine"

Just 1 example:

1) Pedophile is released to the public (as usual). Cops warn that he shouldn't be released and will likely rape more kids and destroy more lives. Cops are forced to release him.

[Feruk]

Originally posted by phil98z24
You don't know the breadth of what is being dealt with, the details of each, or the subject/officer behavior at that given time, so it's not exactly fair to render an assessment on very little info.
While that entire statement is true, I don't exactly see cops complaining about people rushing to judgment in threads like the Garland thread (or really any threads that don't potentially involve police abuse). You can make the same statement you've made here in ANY thread where someone expresses an opinion (as they likely won't know all the facts), but that would simply kill any potential discussion. To make the statement here but not elsewhere is hypocritical IMO.