To all Those who are Blind to Poverty

[Gweedo]

Ive noticed there are a lot of conservatives on this forum, many of you seem blind to the notion of poverty in Canada. Well it does exist, if your not lazy enough read on and you might learn something.

First some FACTS

-In Canada 5 million people live in poverty, we have a population of 30 million people.
-In Canada 10% of the population own 52% of the entire populations personal wealth.
-Low birth weight is the leading cause of (1) infant death; and (2) illness in infancy and childhood.
-Babies born to low-income parents are almost twice as likely to be born with a low birth weight.
-51.8% of poor Canadians are single parent mothers
-1,071,000 Canadian children live in poverty (15.6%)
-Manitoba rates third at 18.5% of all provinces for the worst poverty rate

The Canadian government, through statistics Canada, has its own way of defining poverty, its called the low income cutoff point. Its a monetary figure based on annual income, if a person falls below that figure they are considered to be living in poverty. In 1996 the low income cutoff point for a single person was $16 061 per year. For a family of four the cutoff point was $31 862. According to this indicator, a family household that spends more than 58.5% of its income on the basic necessities of food, clothing and shelter lives below the poverty line.
Living a life in poverty can affect your health, your children and your future. Governments promote social assistance policies that are suppose to be “safety nets” for these people to fall back on, the obvious and most advertised example is welfare. When governments change leadership or politicians change their priorities, these safety nets start to wither away. It is one thing to look at the appearance of poverty at face value in our society, but it is another to uncover and analyze the underlying circumstances surrounding it. What it takes to get welfare, how much a person receives and the issue of women being more prone to experience living in
welfare are all underlying issues that many people don’t understand.

People living in poverty are in a sense a class themselves, more specifically a class with less power, because they don’t have the means and resources available to them to make significant change. On top of that society creates stigma’s and biases towards people in poverty. Governments, mainstream media, and segments of the corporate culture have assisted in the development of hostility towards poor people, a result of increased societal acceptance of poor bashing. These social practices continually reinforce the general populations ideas of laziness, cheating, and thieving associated with poor people. These ideas start to become assumptions and problems for certain groups of people. Therefore the government sets up programs to legitimate the situation, to make themselvs look like they are doing something about it. Programs such as the “work for welfare” program, where individuals are sent to do miserable work to earn their welfare checks.
Another blatant example of legitimation by the state was in 1995 when the Provincial government of Ontario implemented their “zero tolerance” policy along with their welfare hotline. The hotline was setup for individuals to call to report on people who they believed were abusing welfare. Police were then brought in to investigate the call. In the two years that this hotline was active, only 9 people ended up getting convicted of welfare fraud. These people, due to the “zero tolerance” policy were banned for life from ever receiving welfare again. The amount of money put into the hotline program to catch 9 people in two years was more of a priority than distributing that money to the people who really needed it.

People have to stop their assumptions of people on welfare. (Read my other post "5 myths")
http://pub61.ezboard.com/fthelandofboykofrm15.showMessage?topicID=17.topic

The world we live in allows a few to be very wealthy, many to be confortable, and a LARGE Number to be living in poverty. This does NOT need to be the case. It is possible to STRIVE for greater equality such that at least the basic human needs are met for all people in all places. [B]

[3g4me]

Original Post Removed. (Please read the Forum Rules and Terms of Use (http://forums.beyond.ca/articles.php?action=data&item=1) before posting again, or risk getting banned).

[QuasarCav]

Well i guess i better get back to my factory making widgets. Oh shit my boss is coming, if i don't meet my quota I wont get a brand new LADA.

But after reading all those pretty numbers keep in mind

47% of statistics are made up.

[sputnik]

-In Canada 5 million people live in poverty, we have a population of 30 million people.

Define "poverty". Because based on that in calgary there would be over 150,000 people on the streets. When I am lucky to see 3-4 panhandlers when I go for a walk at lunchtime. Where did you get that "fact" from? A more interesting fact would be how many of those people smoke or have a cell phone.


-In Canada 10% of the population own 52% of the entire populations personal wealth.

Again. So that might be true. A more interesting fact would be. Of that 10% how many of those people were immigrants that came to this country with nothing but a good work ethic and the clothes on their back. (eg. CEO of Magna Corp)


-Low birth weight is the leading cause of (1) infant death; and (2) illness in infancy and childhood.

Generally due to alcohol and substance abuse. Something that can be prevented at an early age. It is NOT the responsibility for the government to make sure kids dont do drugs and make sure they go to school. It is the parents responsibility.


-Babies born to low-income parents are almost twice as likely to be born with a low birth weight.

Why are they low income to begin with and why with social programs such as food banks, welfare, womens shelters, free health care do they continually abuse the child that isnt born. If they are infact "poor".


-51.8% of poor Canadians are single parent mothers

So the government is supposed to find them husbands? Or would you rather the government give out abortions? Why not make it the governments responsibility to make sure teenage girls keep their legs closed until they are married. Or at least use some form of birth control.


-1,071,000 Canadian children live in poverty (15.6%)

Again. Define poverty.


-Manitoba rates third at 18.5% of all provinces for the worst poverty rate

Do you assume that all of the poor people are poor because they cant get a job? Manitoba unemployment rate was at 5.8% last year. Housing is also dirt cheap in Winnipeg, so its not like there is a high cost of living.

It would be interesting to know how many of that 18.5% are addicted to alcohol, drugs or gambling. Why not provide THOSE stats?

[3g4me]

Originally posted by sputnik


Define "poverty". Because based on that in calgary there would be over 150,000 people on the streets. When I am lucky to see 3-4 panhandlers when I go for a walk at lunchtime. Where did you get that "fact" from? A more interesting fact would be how many of those people smoke or have a cell phone.



Again. So that might be true. A more interesting fact would be. Of that 10% how many of those people were immigrants that came to this country with nothing but a good work ethic and the clothes on their back. (eg. CEO of Magna Corp)



Generally due to alcohol and substance abuse. Something that can be prevented at an early age. It is NOT the responsibility for the government to make sure kids dont do drugs and make sure they go to school. It is the parents responsibility.



Why are they low income to begin with and why with social programs such as food banks, welfare, womens shelters, free health care do they continually abuse the child that isnt born. If they are infact "poor".



So the government is supposed to find them husbands? Or would you rather the government give out abortions? Why not make it the governments responsibility to make sure teenage girls keep their legs closed until they are married. Or at least use some form of birth control.



Again. Define poverty.



Do you assume that all of the poor people are poor because they cant get a job? Manitoba unemployment rate was at 5.8% last year. Housing is also dirt cheap in Winnipeg, so its not like there is a high cost of living.

It would be interesting to know how many of that 18.5% are addicted to alcohol, drugs or gambling. Why not provide THOSE stats?

:werd: couldnt have said it better myself.:thumbsup:

[QuasarCav]

^^^^^^

thank you, it was what i was trying to say.
Very well written and so true.

[sputnik]

Gweedo,

You have been blinded by the people who consistantly blame the government for their own personal problems and bad choices in life.

Why should the government (and ultimately the working taxpayer) be responsible for picking up the tab so that the same people can consistantly make bad decisions over and over again?

[3g4me]

Everybody has a chance to do something in their life, some people choose to go to school work hard and succeed in life. Others choose to be lazy and do nothing. Now why the hell should the people who worked their whole life to achieve what they have, try to make his lazy ass naighbor equal to him? I work so that i can have what lazy people can only dream of.

[B17a]

I have a tough time sympathizing with the poor in Canada. Sure I'm cold-hearted, but my folks came here with less money than I have in my change holder, put themselves through school, got good jobs, worked their assess off, put me through school, gave me a good upbringing and are now enjoy the fruits of their labor in retirement. With these standards to look up to, its hard for me to sympathize....especially with the teenage bums along Stephen Ave. Alberta especially is the land of opportunity, if you're young and able, there is no reason you can't get a job. Hell, they'll hire just about anyone to work a rig!

[kevie88]

Da Komrade!! We kan soon be all the same.. class equality for all!!

Workers of the world unite!! You have nothing to loose but your chains!!

http://members.telering.at/biology/nebaluj.jpg


Originally posted by 3g4me
Everybody has a chance to do something in their life, some people choose to go to school work hard and succeed in life. Others choose to be lazy and do nothing. Now why the hell should the people who worked their whole life to achieve what they have, try to make his lazy ass naighbor equal to him? I work so that i can have what lazy people can only dream of.


:werd: :werd: :werd:

[aiy_yah]

Yeah, I'm tired of seeing strong, healthy, young people smoking a joint and begging for money. I agree that if they are healthy, there isn't a reason why they can't get a job.
Another thing that bothers me are the people that ask for money for transit or for food and when you offer them a transit ticket or food, they refuse and insist on getting cash. Reason? They are either fucking druggies or winoes (sp??)!

I swear these wastes of skin inflate the "poor" people percentage.

[sputnik]

Originally posted by aiy_yah
I swear these wastes of skin inflate the "poor" people percentage.

This is 90% of the "poor" that Gweedo thinks that we should support.

I think everyone that votes NDP or Liberal should give up an additional 10% of their salary to help the "poor". Because clearly middle class people like Gweedo make more than enough money that they need to survive.

[QuasarCav]

Originally posted by sputnik


This is 90% of the "poor" that Gweedo thinks that we should support.

I think everyone that votes NDP or Liberal should give up an additional 10% of their salary to help the "poor". Because clearly middle class people like Gweedo make more than enough money that they need to survive.


so true, If they get voted in (very unlikely) I will stop working and live of the now inflated welfare.


We all have to work here, I understand disability and all that. But if you can work than work. There is no use for people who work hard to carry the weight of those who don't on their shoulders.

[MerfBall]

It seems alot of the poor people that people are referring to in these threads are the panhandlers. The panhandlers represent a very small percentage of the people living in poverty as defined by the Canadian government and what is referred to in the original post.

As a matter of fact panhandlers are probably not even included in the original posts statistics. Why? Because most panhandlers don't file an income tax.



The Canadian government, through statistics Canada, has its own way of defining poverty, its called the low income cutoff point. Its a monetary figure based on annual income, if a person falls below that figure they are considered to be living in poverty. In 1996 the low income cutoff point for a single person was $16 061 per year. For a family of four the cutoff point was $31 862.


Alot of these threads really only support the ignorance on beyond. There are alot of working poor in Canada, even in Calgary. There is the assumption that the drop in center was built for all those bums. But really the vast majority of the walk in center's clientele are the working poor. It's a place for people that do work to take a shower and sleep so that they can go to work the next day. The problem working poor at least in calgary face is that they make enough to barely survive but no enough to have their own place.

[thich]

and so everyone forgets that everyone who lives in N.America fall in the top 10% richest people of the world.

I can't help EVERYONE out there... but I've helped when and wherever I can - I'm still a student and as I graduate I plan to contribute back to society... but there are better ways to help ppl then to just give hand-outs like sputnik said.

[RiCE-DaDDy]

China has over 300 million in poverty :eek:

You guys totally missed the boat on teen poverty. It's not a financial problem for them, its usually a family/mental issue. For example, you got the typical abusive father and on top of that their in poverty already so where can the kid go? the streets and thats safer than being at home...

[GingeRRRBeef]

Gweedo,

How bout we blame God instead? :rolleyes: I'm sure he has a lot more power to change things than the government.

[StupidWade]

Originally posted by Gweedo
First some FACTS

-In Canada 5 million people live in poverty, we have a population of 30 million people.

...

The Canadian government, through statistics Canada, has its own way of defining poverty, its called the low income cutoff point (LICO). Its a monetary figure based on annual income, if a person falls below that figure they are considered to be living in poverty.[B]

This particular FACT is a LIE. StatsCan specifically says in every one of their reports that quotes LICO numbers that LICO is NOT INTENDED to be used as an indicator of poverty. The way that the LICO line is calculated is comical, really. It's essentially deciding that some people MUST be poor because other people are rich.

The way LICO works (simplified) is that they take the average amount of money that people spend on basic needs, adds 20% and says that anyone making less than the total as annual income is living in poverty.

To use a half-a$$ed metaphor, if five of my friends and I all owned $30,000 BMWs and all of them sold the Beemers and bought $150,000 Porsches, according to LICO, I'd suddenly be living in poverty, even though I'm cruising in a BMW. (The metaphor isn't accurate because fancy cars aren't a basic need, but you get the idea.)

LICO doesn't say that people aren't getting enough food or shelter, it compares them to the average. The more people who work their butts off to get ahead, the more people the LICO stat will say are poor.

[Toma]

I'ts not a"lie" Lico is simply a convenient benchmark. People have long argued if anything below this level is in fact "poor" or not, and the debate continues.....

[StupidWade]

The lie I was referring to is that 1 in 6 (5M of 30M) people in Canada is living in poverty, a number that the LICO stat is used to support.

Is one out of every six people you know living on the street, on welfare or going hungry on a regular basis? Ask any of your friends and relatives if one out of every six people they know is living in poverty. I know lots of people who live "hand to mouth" every month. They may be poor but they aren't impoverished.

Poverty is NOT being unable to afford high speed internet and a cell phone every month. I don't want to pay more taxes so that 'poor' people can afford digital cable and a snowboard.

5,000,000 Canadians living in poverty? It's a lie.

[Toma]

No, that many live under the Lico amounts..... which is by definition "poverty", "poor" or "working poor".

[Ben]

Industrialized poverty is one thing, but when I think of poverty, I think of 3rd world Poverty.

[davidI]

It seems that a lot of the people that would probably fall under that category are immigrants to our Country. I think we should stiffen up Immigration laws to a) Have a better relationship with the U.S. and b) Make sure people born on Canadian soil are the beneficiaries of the social programs my tax money goes to before anyone else.

[mo_virgin]

Originally posted by davidI
It seems that a lot of the people that would probably fall under that category are immigrants to our Country. I think we should stiffen up Immigration laws to a) Have a better relationship with the U.S. and b) Make sure people born on Canadian soil are the beneficiaries of the social programs my tax money goes to before anyone else.

That is CRAP man... where is this immigrant stereotype coming from? Thats a white trash lie... spread out of hate and racism.
I beleive in equal oportunity and in that case EVERYBODY raised in Canada has the similar opportunity if not exactly the same to be sucssesful. If you blame the government it just shows how weak you are, perserverance is a quality in all sucessful people.

[Toma]

You cannot stiffen immigration in a country that would DIE without it. Our populations is declining, some analysts say BECAUSE people cannot afford to have children.

What happens to a country with a broke declining population? Recession, no spending, perhaps even deflation.

We need immigration on a massive scale because by definition, if a capitalist economy is not growing, it is dying.

[B17a]

Originally posted by davidI
It seems that a lot of the people that would probably fall under that category are immigrants to our Country. I think we should stiffen up Immigration laws to a) Have a better relationship with the U.S. and b) Make sure people born on Canadian soil are the beneficiaries of the social programs my tax money goes to before anyone else.

I'd like to see where that statistic came from! I have to disagree though, immigrants primarily come here for a better life, thus are not expecting a hand out but an opportunity to make something of their lives. Although they may fall closer to the "working poor" catagory, they are working and trying. If you take a drive by the homeless shelter or stroll through downtown, it's 99% white-bread Canadians or indiginous people.

[davidI]

I'm not saying we don't need immigrants because of course Canada does - but we need to step up the laws. There is a difference between those coming here to live off of our social programs and those coming here to contribute to our society. I just don't think we should be letting in unskilled, uneducated workers. The U.S. 'greencard' system seems to work well (although it doesn't always stop illegal immigrants). Seriously though, when a lot of my family moved to the U.S. their employers had to prove that they had something that could not be found in their current population. For example, my uncle is a teacher and California was in desperate need of teachers so he was granted a green card to work there. I agree that on an economic basis we need an increasing population but we should be promoting ourselves to skilled and educated workers instead of letting in so many refugees. I know that makes me sound like a bastard and I'm all for supporting poverty in 3rd world countries but at the same time wouldn't an increasing broke population be just as bad for the economy as a decreasing broke population?

I'm not an economist so maybe Weapon_R or other econ majors can voice their views on it.

[mo_virgin]

We DONT allow "unskilled, uneducated workers" to gain citizenship. Only Investment Immigrants (the rich), the well educated and refugees are allowed citizenship. Our system is actually VERY similar to the US.

THe final point is that most poverty is not caused by immigrants:closed:

[davidI]

Originally posted by B17a


I'd like to see where that statistic came from! I have to disagree though, immigrants primarily come here for a better life, thus are not expecting a hand out but an opportunity to make something of their lives. Although they may fall closer to the "working poor" catagory, they are working and trying. If you take a drive by the homeless shelter or stroll through downtown, it's 99% white-bread Canadians or indiginous people.

I didn't say it was a statistic....I said it seems like. I agree that a lot of them do try hard and get jobs etc. but all I said is that they fall under the LICO category everyone has been talking about. I dunno where your 99% statistic came from and yes I do partially agree but from my personal experiences I had a lot of friends who immigrated here when I was younger and I know their parents were collecting subsidies from the government etc. One of the guys totally stands out in my mind because his Mother (single-mother) had 5 kids to take care of and she worked her ass off for them. Unfortunately, the reason I stopped being good buddies with him is because he got into some hardcore crime. I don't blame his mother - because she was working her ass off....but the kid saw an easier way ie. B & E's, Dealing, Stealing stuff. Anyways, I'm not try to say that immigrants perpetrate all crime or anything like that (Hell's Angels are probably the worst crime organization in Canada.) BUT, what I am saying is just because someone comes here and makes their 15k a year doesn't mean that they are beneficial to our society.

[B17a]

Originally posted by davidI


I didn't say it was a statistic....I said it seems like. I agree that a lot of them do try hard and get jobs etc. but all I said is that they fall under the LICO category everyone has been talking about. I dunno where your 99% statistic came from and yes I do partially agree but from my personal experiences I had a lot of friends who immigrated here when I was younger and I know their parents were collecting subsidies from the government etc. One of the guys totally stands out in my mind because his Mother (single-mother) had 5 kids to take care of and she worked her ass off for them. Unfortunately, the reason I stopped being good buddies with him is because he got into some hardcore crime. I don't blame his mother - because she was working her ass off....but the kid saw an easier way ie. B & E's, Dealing, Stealing stuff. Anyways, I'm not try to say that immigrants perpetrate all crime or anything like that (Hell's Angels are probably the worst crime organization in Canada.) BUT, what I am saying is just because someone comes here and makes their 15k a year doesn't mean that they are beneficial to our society.

The 99% was my highly unscientific, walking around downtown at lunch time survey!:D

[thich]

Originally posted by Ben
Industrialized poverty is one thing, but when I think of poverty, I think of 3rd world Poverty.

:werd:


We DONT allow "unskilled, uneducated workers" to gain citizenship. Only Investment Immigrants (the rich), the well educated and refugees are allowed citizenship. Our system is actually VERY similar to the US.

actually, people still sponsor their families and relatives to come to Canada and after 3 years they get into the citizenship process; but this is where most of the problems come from.

[nickyh]

I'm from Africa where 85% of the population is in the poverty bracket - everyday I am thankful for what I have at my age.
People in this country complain a lot about stupid things that many in a 3rd world country would kill for.
Every time I see people wasting food and money it makes me so mad because they take it for granted - they should think about where their next meal is comming from before throwing out a sandwich because it has mayo on it....

My rant......

[nickyh]

Originally posted by davidI
I'm not saying we don't need immigrants because of course Canada does - but we need to step up the laws. There is a difference between those coming here to live off of our social programs and those coming here to contribute to our society.

Who says immigrants come here to be lazy - without getting into a major arguement since I know first hand how unjust the job market is to immigrants - there are enough canadians who like to sit back and be a drain on society.
Unskilled - maybe ask your cab driver what his education back ground is next time.

[davidI]

Originally posted by nickyh

Unskilled - maybe ask your cab driver what his education back ground is next time.

Last I heard they were up in arms because the City wants them to pass a gr. 5 English exam instead of gr. 3. Obviously everyone in this world has skills but there are only so many skills that will contribute to our society. I'm sure there are some awesome guys in the jungle who can start fire with twigs and kill animals with rocks and fish with spears but those skills don't really apply to the Canadian lifestyle. If driving a car is a skill in your books then hot damn this world has a lot of talented people. I have nothign against those who come here and work their asses off but even if they are not collecting welfare they are still putting a strain on the system. I have a family of educators and administrator's in the education system and a huge problem is the incredible need of ESL aid(Second Language). So now put your child in a class of 30 gr. 3 students, 4 of which don't speak English. Do you expect your child to get any attention whatsoever even though you have been paying your education taxes for years???
Obviously the system is never going to be perfect but since mo_virgin said that only the rich immigrate here maybe they should be the ones paying for their children's learning needs instead of me.

Thich is totally right about the fact that a lot of people get here through their families sponsoring them. Calgary doesn't even have it that bad. It's true that Calgary's drop in Centre has more whites than any other ethnic group but I'm not sure if you could say the same for Toronto or Vancouver. I saw a documentary about Shanty towns in Toronto full of immigrants who had nothing but evaded deportation. It's true the U.S. has the same problem with Mexican's but the problem there is the border. It's pretty tough for people in the Middle East to swim over to Canada so it SHOULD be much easier for us to have control. It should be scary that terrorists are choosing to come through Canada to the U.S. instead of Mexico!

[thich]

what I think mo_virgin stated is that only rich people have the means to emigrate to Canada without any help and that is true; it takes something like $140k-$200k of annual income or something like that to be able to emigrate to Canada. The only other way you can come to Canada is if you had a background that Canada needs, eg. engineers and managers.

I have a Viet friend who left VN a while back, lived in Japan for a long time and worked as a manager and still managed to come to Canada even though he wasn't rich but he had skills that Canada needed.

It's also granted that it's NOT ONLY the rich that come to Canada... we have one of the most messed up immigration systems. That needs to be revamped for sure.

[02bump'nWRX]

Anway back to the original topic i think our commie friend Gweedo needs to move to Cuba and see what kind of life communism offers you!!!.

But I do agree with most of you. I'm no expert on immigration but i think we need to focus on allowing immigrants who have skils/ education and will contribute to our societyand not be a detriment to it. Whether we do this to the best of our ability is another dabate all together. Secondly our deportation laws need to be stiffened, too often illegal and harmful immigrants who are depoted get to stay in the country while my tax dollar is paying for them to be here.

And i have a huge problem with able bodied people in Alberta not working. I mean if you can't find a job in alberta you arn't looking.

As for the working poor; maybe this is an ignorant generalization,but all the people i know that work and are poor or live in poverty and work is because they made many bad choices in life. ie, getting a criminal record, having lots of kids and dropping out of school when they were 10 and never obtaining any valuable skills unless it comes to crime and drugs. I have No sympathy for these people and it pissed me off when i or others work our asses off, make good choices and end up with a decent career end up supporting people who did the exact opposite.

I believe that it is not the governments responsibility to look after these people (Unless disabled). Rather it is up to individuals. Instead of the government raising money through taxes, only which 40% of the amount the raise is usable, ( other 60% goes to administration, loss and etc) private charities should be the means of helping the less fortunate. That way people like gweedo can help who he wants and i can give my money to the people i want, like cancer research and etc. It is also showen that private charities are much more effective and efficient in the allocation of resouces. A local politician was telling me that the mormon relief organization (or something like that) in the USA is big into offering foreign aid and care packages for 3rd world countries. They are so efficient they get 99% of the money the recieved to the people who need it. Unlike our govt who only gets 40% of it to people who need it.

But thats just my opinion

[davidI]

Bump'n for Prime Minister! :D

Although I think that the government does have to take some responsibility for the working poor and provide some social programs because I value my car too much to have it stolen ;)

But, I would agree that a lot of the guys I landscape with during the summer are getting a free ride hopping on E.I. every winter claiming that there are no jobs available in landscaping (well no shit you can't plant grass in the winter...shovel snow or something but don't use my taxed money to be lazy).

[davidI]

Originally posted by thich
what I think mo_virgin stated is that only rich people have the means to emigrate to Canada without any help and that is true.

It's also granted that it's NOT ONLY the rich that come to Canada.

:confused:

So it's only the rich that can emigrate here but it's NOT ONLY the rich that can come here? I dun git eet :dunno:

[iceburns288]

thich, the only reason terrorists come through Canada is there are some parts where it's as simple as walking into the U.S., greeted by nothing but a "WELCOME TO AMERICA" sign. At least I hope that's the only reason...

A problem with the U.S.'s immigration laws is stupid. I have a New Zealand(ish?) friend. His mother became very ill, and he needed to fly down to see her. Shortly after he arrived, she recovered, and he got a plane ticket for the U.S. As he tried to get in to America (maybe he was stopped in New Zealand, not sure where) he wasn't allowed back in because his Visa had expired. WTF? He's lived here about 15-20 years (again, not sure) paid his taxes dutifully every year and contributes to our economy. In fact, he led a team of origami artists that were to make a life size T-Rex skeleton out of paper using the origami method. The dinosaurs went in our largest bank in the city and brought business and much publicity to the bank. After all he contributes to the community, he still isn't allowed in... Yet almost a 1000 Mexicans get across the border every day? :rolleyes:

[thich]

^^i wasn't referring to terrorists; i was referring to Asian gangsters and Asians who come here and don't get a job and end up in gang life ...


So it's only the rich that can emigrate here but it's NOT ONLY the rich that can come here? I dun git eet


The Rich can pay to come to Canada; but ANYONE can be sponsored into Canada. like the Rich sorta sponsor themselves into Canada without needing to be backed by some other party.
But if say a person from Vietnam (i have most experience w/ this so I will work from this perspective) wanted to come to Canada but wasn't rich, they would need financial backing from relatives in Canada who will sponsor them and they cannot get any govt aid for 10 years.

and it is because of THIS that ticks me off about some Asians who come to Canada these days... they come with expectations that money grows on trees and then they find out that the govt won't give them a cent b/c of the sponsorship rules and then they fall into gangs and under-the-table activities which just harms the economy and society.

[davidI]

^ Agreed. I thought that's what you meant but you worded it so that it seemed totally contradictory so I was a little confuzzed haha. I totally agree though.

Iceburns....where can you walk across teh boarder with just a welcome to the U.S. sign other than Alaska? If that were the case then why aren't drugs ran through there every day? I don't see your argument that the Immigration laws are stupid....yes that sux for your buddy but if his Visa ran out then why would they let him back in? The U.S. secures their border as best they can. Agreed Mexicans managed to get in but that's because they can cross land to do that. Just because Mexicans can get in doesn't mean they should let everyone in. I would be happy to be an American since they seem to be doing what they can on their borders to prevent terrorists for entering. I think the reason they're pissed off at Canada is because we aren't very secure and it is impossible to secure a land border like Canada/U.S. or U.S/Mexico but it is possible to prevent terrorists flying in on planes or coming in on boats. Canada's passport has come under attack lately as well since it is one of the easiest to forge. I have heard stories of Canadians being detained in foreign Countries just because so many people carry false Canadian passports now.

[RiCE-DaDDy]

Originally posted by thich
^^i wasn't referring to terrorists; i was referring to Asian gangsters and Asians who come here and don't get a job and end up in gang life ...



The Rich can pay to come to Canada; but ANYONE can be sponsored into Canada. like the Rich sorta sponsor themselves into Canada without needing to be backed by some other party.
But if say a person from Vietnam (i have most experience w/ this so I will work from this perspective) wanted to come to Canada but wasn't rich, they would need financial backing from relatives in Canada who will sponsor them and they cannot get any govt aid for 10 years.

and it is because of THIS that ticks me off about some Asians who come to Canada these days... they come with expectations that money grows on trees and then they find out that the govt won't give them a cent b/c of the sponsorship rules and then they fall into gangs and under-the-table activities which just harms the economy and society.

do u have first hand experience?

[TheBiz]

Originally posted by davidI
It seems that a lot of the people that would probably fall under that category are immigrants to our Country. I think we should stiffen up Immigration laws to a) Have a better relationship with the U.S. and b) Make sure people born on Canadian soil are the beneficiaries of the social programs my tax money goes to before anyone else.


That statement is widespread racism.

I want you to name 10 of the most successful canadian/ american companies for computers or medicine, chances are atleast 60% of them are owned or operated by "immigrants".

Look at Dell and IBM for instance, they outcast to india, now if indians were comming here to canada, to consume, to put money into CANADA's economy, would you want to decline them of money to get off the ground first?

I personally have a big heart for the impoverished, and I do feel guilty everyday when I sit in my warm SUV whilst others suffer in the cold. But I relalise that I can not change the world, but if I can effect a change for a smaller cause (working to keep MY family in check) then I am giving them a better life, in the hopes that they will not suffer poverty.

On a side note, our family gives very genously to many charities.

[Ben]

Giving to someone you know versus someone you dont is not racism, thats human nature. I'm gonna help out my fellow Canadians first before I help out somone moving here to live off or social programs cause they're lazy. Now if they are refugees fleeing persecution and war, well fine, help them live a better life, but I have no sympathy for any imigrant that comes to Canada and gets used to our social programs and then just lives off them while the rest of us work. Any able bodied person not doing their best to be a valuable contribution to our society and way of life should be sent home. These are my thoughts, not neccessarily everyone elses.

[RiCE-DaDDy]

Immigrants that abuse our welfare programs

is that really the main problem here?

[Ben]

Originally posted by RiCE-DaDDy
Immigrants that abuse our welfare programs

is that really the main problem here?

Not at all, one of many, and because this topic was brought up, I replied to it.:rolleyes:

[RiCE-DaDDy]

Originally posted by Ben


Not at all, one of many, and because this topic was brought up, I replied to it.

I see.
w/o some stats or something, it could be a very insignificant issue

[davidI]

Originally posted by TheBiz



That statement is widespread racism.

I want you to name 10 of the most successful canadian/ american companies for computers or medicine, chances are atleast 60% of them are owned or operated by "immigrants".

Look at Dell and IBM for instance, they outcast to india, now if indians were comming here to canada, to consume, to put money into CANADA's economy, would you want to decline them of money to get off the ground first?

I personally have a big heart for the impoverished, and I do feel guilty everyday when I sit in my warm SUV whilst others suffer in the cold. But I relalise that I can not change the world, but if I can effect a change for a smaller cause (working to keep MY family in check) then I am giving them a better life, in the hopes that they will not suffer poverty.

On a side note, our family gives very genously to many charities.

I said stiffen up immigration laws - not deny immigration to every person trying to enter this country. I'm pretty sure if someone was coming here that was definately going to CONTRIBUTE to society no one would have a problem with it....it has nothing to do with color, religion or any other descrimination. By 'stiffening' up the immigration laws I simply meant that people should not be able to come live off of our system because they were sponsored or any other crap like that. Terrorists shouldn't be able to walk in to our country just because Al-Quada provided them with enough money to seem like they are going to contribute. You may ask, who is going to pay for all of this expansion on the immigration system? I answer...the people using it, the immigrants. If someone is seeking asylum and refugee status then I don't mind footing the bill in my taxes but since everyone on here seems to feel that the only immigrants to our country are wealthy businessmen you shouldn't have a problem with a user-fee based system.

My proposal to all those who say poor immigrants don't exist....why don't you walk through Forest Lawn late one night with your wallet in hand - if the community is all independently wealthy you shouldn't have any problems but for some reason I think I'll see your face on the 6 o'clock news.

[Ben]

Originally posted by RiCE-DaDDy


I see.
w/o some stats or something, it could be a very insignificant issue

WTF does what I said have anything to do with needing stats?!

[davidI]

Oh yea, and props to you for being mr. charity but some of us don't have enough money lying around to hand out to those who would rather get high than work. If I was in Africa and could first hand help people and see where my donations were going I would give every cent I could spare but considering Calgary is trying to gain permission to give out Heroin as a possible means of rehabilitating addicts I really start to wonder where my 'social program' money really goes.

[TheBiz]

Maybe it is that i have to much of a harsh mindset about people who dont belive in helping all equally IE no diffrences between giveing up money to canadians before other races.

To you I apologize for having mis-worded and brutally twisted your words.

However i do not agree with your statement about terrorism, as it is a threat, you are only willing to address the problem (shut out possible shifty immigrants) on your "soil". What are you willing to do about the terrorist acts caused as repercussions of actions carried out throught out canada and the us?

Nothing, this is not your fault, I can fully identify with you, as I would want my people to profit of my work before others.

How are you going to setup a program to filter "us" then?

[TheBiz]

Ton of others foot his costs over seas- yet as soon as they come for some help, they are shot down and targeted as possible problems. Well hell, in Irak the situation is over oil, tons of Irakies are dying so that we can get the fuel nessacary to power our cars, and heat our garages. In india the US and Europe distroyed it in scalling the land for all the resources they could get, and took them, without any compensation. Dont even start on africa
I am not saying all there problems especially india is a direct effect of the affirmentioned countiries, all I am saying is that, why is it the us is aloud to go and take from a poorer country then it is; then when that country turns around and its people seek money refuge and a place to build a more prosperious life, they are looked down upon and made to look like freeloaders.

[RiCE-DaDDy]

Originally posted by Ben


WTF does what I said have anything to do with needing stats?!

lol take it easy

nothin, but w/o some info we dont what which probs have the bigger piece of the pie?

[thich]

Originally posted by TheBiz
Maybe it is that i have to much of a harsh mindset about people who dont belive in helping all equally IE no diffrences between giveing up money to canadians before other races.

I personally don't believe giving money to other people helps them one bit - maybe to get by for that day but that's about it... same thing about giving money to other countries.

But I don't condone not doing anything.
I for one support organizations such as World Vision and MCC who do MORE than just give money - provide programs to teach people in developing nations on how to build a better future for themselves.

[thich]

i dun think there is any one problem that takes the bigger piece of the pie... it all seems like there is a combo of so many things that add up...

[Ben]

Originally posted by RiCE-DaDDy


lol take it easy

nothin, but w/o some info we dont what which probs have the bigger piece of the pie?


Who cares what problem is a bigger peice of the pie. It's still a problem, and it should be addressed. It was brought up in this thread, so why not address it while it's ON TOPIC.

[method]

you people lack compassion.
it sickens me.

[Ben]

Originally posted by method
you people lack compassion.
it sickens me.

Meh, it is not Compassion I lack, but tollerence for lazy, manipulative, and unambitious people.

[peacekeeper]

wow. some of the capitalist mindsets here make me sick.

do you really think that the government is doing too much for the poor? do you really think that the poor just don't exist? that Canada is an easy country to get into? come on people! open your eyes!

Government funding since the liberals have gotten elected has decreased in EVERY SINGLE federal cabinet ministry by 10 to 60% (check out Paul Martin's 1995 budget if you don't believe me. none of the cuts have been restored). How can this have any good effects at all? this has, of course, had a disproportionate effect on those you call "lazy", the poor.

as gweedo said, welfare is the mostly highly publicized social program for the poor. yes, i'm willing to admit that some people take advantage of welfare but those numbers are miniscule compared to the amount of people who genuinely need help. personally, when i think of the people who do abuse the system i think of of white men in their early twenties with no responsibilities (no kids no morgage etc).
As for the poor not existing? when you include the effects of inflation, minimum wage has only increased by an average of 5 cents over the last decade. Despite their election promise in 1993 to end child poverty by 2000, child poverty has increased EVERY SINGLE YEAR since they got elected. You don't think people are poor because you don't see tons of panhandlers on the streets. why don't you take a drive around your city (in your massive SUV) and visit the areas where the houses are falling apart with the windows are boarded up. yes, people live there.

i could go on and on about how hard it is to get EI now. or how soup kitchens are now having to turn people away because they can't feed everyone that the government no longer concerns itself with. or how all of this legislation has an even more adverse effect on women and minorities. ask me to explain. i dare you.

for now i'll tackle your immigration debate. how about reading a book, eh? you really think that Canada lets in any slob who applies? even people who claim refugee status have to meet certain quotas. when you apply for citizenship there's a long checklist which takes into account your education, your connections in canada, your means to get here and to care for yourself while you are here. as it's been stated here, people aren't allowed to tap into our society's safety net for a number of years after they've been here.
the real problem with immigration to canada are the road blocks that we set in their way. i'm not saying to make it easier to get into Canada, i'm saying once they're in Canada make it easier for them. Most foreign degrees are not recognized in Canada. That is why you were told to ask your taxi driver for his education. he could be a doctor and not able to work in a hospital. who cares if he has a strong accent. are you so narrow-minded that you can't understand that not everyone in this world who is worthwhile speaks perfect english.

now, if there's one thing i've learned it's that the hardest thing in the world to do is to try to convince a capitalist of a socialist's view. hopefully i've opened some minds.

[method]

Originally posted by Ben


Meh, it is not Compassion I lack, but tollerence for lazy, manipulative, and unambitious people.


is that your blanket terminology for all underpriviledged people, or the literal meaning?

I dont think anyone here has tollerance for lazy, manipulative, or unambitious people.

[davidI]

Originally posted by thich


I personally don't believe giving money to other people helps them one bit - maybe to get by for that day but that's about it... same thing about giving money to other countries.


So true!! I don't want to stir up more discussion about another seperate topic but I've heard a lot of academics suggest that the first nations people would be doing a lot better in Canada today if they did not receive money from the government. I must agree because a lot of them have lost the motivation to work or initiate something for themselves - similarily, why support 3rd world nations in doing the same thing?

Obviously some aid is good in the form of medical care, food and education. If they begin to rely on the support given then they will never find a way so sustain a decent quality of life.

[Weapon_R]

Some of you people have NO CLUE wtf you're talking about.

I've heard a lot of talk about immigrants placing a strain on society and how they fall into certain categories, and how they are lazy and unambitious etc..

Here are some FACTS, provided by your very own STATS CANADA and the ECONOMIC COUNCIL OF CANADA, just in case someone here is going to jump up on me for not providing any proof.

"Since 1980, 2,872,180 immigrants have entered Canada. Since 1980, Canadian GDP has increased from 550 Billion dollars to $1,050 Billion dollars, federal government tax revenue has increased from $49 Billion to $174 Billion, and since 1998, there have been consistent budget surpluses for the first time since the 1950s". If you haven't caught on yet, this means that our GDP nearly DOUBLED in size, yet our population grew by only about 16%.

Further, "from 1996-2001, growth in Canadian population was only 4%, the third lowest in history for that length in time, but more importantly, all of the population growth was due to immigration". Yes, for those arguing against immigration, we would be a population in decline without it.

One more fact. "One half of all Canadian engineers carry foreign based degrees. Of all of the skilled workforce in Canada, foreign-educated individuals generally carry stronger credentials."

Spare us from this crap about immigrants being a strain on society. Without them, our economic growth would be quite different and undoubtedly less productive as it is today.

[RiCE-DaDDy]

Originally posted by Ben



Who cares what problem is a bigger peice of the pie. It's still a problem, and it should be addressed. It was brought up in this thread, so why not address it while it's ON TOPIC.

im not off-topic.
Anyways, the problem here is singling out immigrants, which is completely unneccessary. Who cares where they come from, abusing the system is all the same.

[davidI]

Originally posted by Weapon_R
Some of you people have NO CLUE wtf you're talking about.


I hope you're not directing this comment at me. It seems like by saying we should 'stiffen immigration laws' half of this board declared I was sent here by the KKK to impose racial hate over everyone. Obviously this isn't the case, I know that immigration is crucial to our society. I think it is very important that people come here because they bring a variety of different experiences and education which will do nothing but help and bolster our economy like weapon_r is pointing out. Just as Toma pointed out earlier, we need to have population growth and the truth is Canadians aren't humping enough. By stiffen the laws I simply meant that everyone and their cousin shouldn't be allowed to immigrate here unless they are going to contribute to society.

[TheBiz]

Originally posted by davidI


I hope you're not directing this comment at me. It seems like by saying we should 'stiffen immigration laws' half of this board declared I was sent here by the KKK to impose racial hate over everyone. Obviously this isn't the case, I know that immigration is crucial to our society. I think it is very important that people come here because they bring a variety of different experiences and education which will do nothing but help and bolster our economy like weapon_r is pointing out. Just as Toma pointed out earlier, we need to have population growth and the truth is Canadians aren't humping enough. By stiffen the laws I simply meant that everyone and their cousin shouldn't be allowed to immigrate here unless they are going to contribute to society.


When in the process of immigrating, how are they or you supposed to know if thry are going to become sucessful and or drop outs? You cant deny certain people and let in others; thats why we have equal rights movements.
The point that is being made, isnt to make you look like a racist asshole, but to highlight the fact that there is no way to know if one "immigrant" is going to be successful or not, would you rather shut out ALL immigrants and have no progression?

Another thing is, what if you were in a war torn contry with little or no food, shelter or refuge; if you knew of a place where it is safer for you, and your family, wouldnt you want to go? Without the possible burden that you may be rejected, and futher persectued in your native land?

If you think that people from overseas just immigrate for the socialistic characteristics of canada, then you are niave and very VERY mis-informed, most immigrants come to make a better life, and when they DO come some off them need the socialistic backbone that canada has setup.

You should be so happy that you have other nations immigrating to land that originally wasnt yours' to begin with. To improve your life, with there innovations. On a more biast note, I think that you are the dependant blood sucker, how much help and innovation have you contributed to other countries, that are helping yours?

[davidI]

If someone is immigrating here with a university degree, an expertise in a field or a few hundred k in the bank it would be a good guess taht they will be more successful than someone coming here with nothing.

Yes I do believe that we should let in some refugees - I'm willing to 'donate' some of my tax money to support those who are endagered in their home countries. However, you can bet that a lot of people come here claiming refuge when they are not in the dire circumstances they claim to be.

That's cool if people come here to have a better life but I am going to disagree with you on them being able to live off of our social programs. I work my ass off so I can provide for myself and my family - every once in a while I feel generous and make the decision on my OWN to donate to people or charity. The government taking my money through taxes and supporting people takes away any of my choice and seems to support the communist movement.

That's interesting that you call me a dependant blood sucker. I don't see how you can tell me that 3rd world countries are helping me more than I am helping them but you are entitled to your own opinion. Maybe you can clarify what they are doing for me that should make me feel like I'm depending on them so badly that I should be called a bloodsucker?

[davidI]

Just out of curiousity, are you guys related? :thumbsup:

[T5_X]

Originally posted by davidI
Oh yea, and props to you for being mr. charity but some of us don't have enough money lying around to hand out to those who would rather get high than work. If I was in Africa and could first hand help people and see where my donations were going I would give every cent I could spare but considering Calgary is trying to gain permission to give out Heroin as a possible means of rehabilitating addicts I really start to wonder where my 'social program' money really goes.

A lot of strategies to deal with drug addicts, criminals, prostitutes etc are counter-intuitive.
Clean injection centers and providing people with drugs for their addiction at a MONITERED level are much better than letting people roam free to get thier drugs on the street.
Centers like this reduce the number of STD infected patients (HUGE costs for keeping a person alive with AIDS) reduce crime and give addicts a social network with at least a chance of rehabilitation.

[davidI]

^ Very true. I just personally feel resources would be better spent on prevention (education) than supplying heroin to those who already made poor choices in life. Obviously people will have differing views and I don't think there is a right way or a wrong way to deal with the problem so any of the solutions are productive. I just know that in California they cut their education funding much like Alberta has done and in the following years their crime rate increased in correlation to these cuts. They realized that instead of having to pump money into their police forces and jails they should start spending on education again....and it is working.

[T5_X]

Yes, education is always something that is skimped on in North America. Education does have its limits, however, as there is a great opposing force to it called ignorance. No matter how many times you tell kids not to do drugs or have protected sex, an extremely large part of the population will still do so.

[davidI]

^ That's the rebellious human nature of a teenager. I didn't necessarily mean education about the substances but more of an education in general. I'm not saying every k-12 student needs to do post-secondary schooling because that simply wouldn't work very well but I do believe that trade schools should be set-up within High Schools (possibly with private sponsorship) or atleast something to provide students with a positive outlook on the future. A lot of the extracurricular sports and programs that were once an integral part of Alberta's systerm are slowly dying with the population influx and lack of corresponding funding. I know a lot of people our age view paying Education tax as a lost cause since they're already out of school but when you think about it the kid that just broke into your car could have been involved in athletics, band or some other club instead of on the streets. If you give kids direction and the feeling of self worth I can guarantee a reduction in crime (and spending on programs relating to crime).

I can tell some of my Dad's views as an educator are starting to wear off on me. He did some research into California's system when he was doing his masters and it looks like Alberta is now following what happened to them....cut spending to education, crime goes up, realize they're spending more on jails than schools, increase spending to education and they're just now at the stage where crime is beginning to go down. That's why there was such a huge influx of Canadian teachers going to the United States - they realized they needed to lower their pupil/teacher ratio to improve a childs quality of education.

[davidI]

Here's a link about security some of you may find interesting. http://www.cbc.ca/storyview/MSN/2004/03/30/audgen_sec040330

[DJ Lazy]

What happened to Gweedo.. he hasn't posted since the he opened this thread.. I guess he can't back up his own "stats"... :rofl:

[davidI]

^ I think I sort of hijacked his thread with the immigration comment.

Sorry Gweedo ;)

[Gweedo]

This post has completely turned away from the original topic.
You are all still blind to poverty.
Read "peacekeepers" post, why hasnt anyone replied to that? maybe because its ON TOPIC??

See when you cant defend yourself you just change topics
Idiots

latta

[davidI]

^ I don't know why you say we're defending ourselves? You posted a problem with no solution (You're an NDP aren't ya? ;)) and I suggested stiffening immigration laws as a solution and we were discussing the validity of that solution.

Did you want us to all just agree that some people are poor?

Edit: And I DID read peacekeepers post and will argue every point about it if you want me to I just didn't feel it was worth my time. If you'd like to see the other side of the cookie then let me know and I'll rip his post apart.

[lam-boy]

Originally posted by method
you people lack compassion.
it sickens me.

i didn't see no one showing passion to my parents with the stories i've heard about my family going through when they first came to canada.

my mom dad, uncles and aunts all worked their asses off getting a few measly dollars a day cleaning up for fancy office owners when they first came to canada. they all went to school, worked hard and busted their asses off to get where they are now. They work hard so i don't have to be put through what they had. all them fucking ass people living on the streets brought it upon themselves.

I don't believe in this "welfare" state or system. the people who make it to the top have lived from the bottom. they made a push to get over that "line of poverty" to get where they are. So i can't blame them or become jealous of them for having the wealth that they have. it gives you motive to work harder to get where they are to enjoy the life of success. I don't really see how it is great to make 100,000 dollars a year only to give up about 50% of what you make. when some dirt sucking bag who enjoys a life of dope and alcohol can get even more high and drunk off of money from someone else who busted their ass off to get to the top.

[Shaolin]

How about setting a place up so homeless people can use it to work and get paychecks.

that'll at least give some incentive for homeless people to find a job and maybe get a better living. :dunno:

the whole idea of working your ass off and giving it to the lazy.. hell you might as well have lazy people lineup outside of corporate offices and have CEOs give them 10 bucks a day. There's no difference.

[davidI]

^ It's not hard to find a job in Alberta. I think the only 'welfare' we should provide is a bus pass and a place where they can shower to get ready for work. Everything else someone can do on their own. Hell, they should be able to buy their own bus pass after the first paycheque so maybe the should just get it for the first month of working or something.

[sputnik]

Originally posted by peacekeeper
why don't you take a drive around your city (in your massive SUV) and visit the areas where the houses are falling apart with the windows are boarded up. yes, people live there.

Calgary has very few uninhabited houses. Unlike Winnipeg our PC government has strengthened the economy to the point where it is VERY easy to find a job as long as you arent severly disabled or have a debilitating drug addiction.

The "bad areas" in Calgary remind me a lot of the houses in the Sturgeon Creek and Crestview area of Winnipeg.

Perhaps if the NDP in Manitoba quit taxing businesses and stopped their support of labour unions perhaps there would be better employment and less people relying on social assistance. Its interesting that Manitoba has a VERY low cost of living still has such high poverty rates.

I spent a couple of summers working for "Lazarus Housing" in Winnipeg when I was in high school gutting boarded up old rooming/drug houses and rebuilding them so that people could buy a renovated house for $40-50k with no downpayment. This was in the scariest area in Winnipeg (Furby/Langside) and I KNOW what goes on there. Rampant drug use, prostitution, alcohol abuse etc...

These people have NO EXCUSE for their situations, and their children are sadly the ones that suffer. There are TONS of programs to help these people but with the constant increase in welfare payouts it seems pointless for anyone to even try. If these people would be denied welfare maybe the people that actually need it (terminally ill or disabled) would have more money to live on.

Also, where do you propose that the money for these social programs comes from to begin with?

[rice_eater]

Originally posted by thich
what I think mo_virgin stated is that only rich people have the means to emigrate to Canada without any help and that is true; it takes something like $140k-$200k of annual income or something like that to be able to emigrate to Canada. The only other way you can come to Canada is if you had a background that Canada needs, eg. engineers and managers.



you're a tool! my romanian ass imigrated here, and the processing fees were like $500 (7 years ago). You just need to prove you have something like 10k so your poor ass has something to live off while you look for a job. Fuck if people had 200k in income they wouldn't be moving here looking for a better life!

[davidI]

^ Thank you for posting that!!! I wasn't sure about the details but I knew that it wasn't only rich people that came here. The fact that you can move here with only 10k to your name and you can't qualify for social programs for a certain number of years definately shows me that crime can be another factor of the weak ass immigration laws we currently have!

[RiCE-DaDDy]

In other words, we are all right wing!

davidI, are you saying immigration is the cause and problem? Reducing immigration will make this country worse plain and simple. it'll make life for you harsher.

[peacekeeper]

First off, I'd like to say that NONE of you are going to be filthy rich when you're older. More likely, you'll have a point in your life where you'll be nearly broke. It could happen to anyone! At that point in your life, look back at this moment and remember what an ass you were.
In response to Sputnik, I never said those houses were uninhabited, I said, PEOPLE LIVE THERE! And I know where that money comes from. Here's a question for you: If you didn't have to give money to the government to redistribute, what would you do with the extra income? You'd probably buy a new computer game so you could hide in your house and turn a blind eye to the growing poverty surrounding you.

NOT ALL POOR PEOPLE ARE ADDICTED OR DISABLED!!!!
50% of single mothers are living in poverty. No I don't expect the government to find them husbands (as some idiot suggested on another post), but consider this situation.
A 20 year old in college gets knocked up by a boyfriend who leaves her. She had a bright future but now she has to drop out of school and her mommy and daddy aren't there to help. She takes a full time job for the first 8 months of pregnancy at say (I'll be generous) $12. That's about $15000 in that 8 months. She has the baby and has to stay at home for at least two months. Again, I'll be generous...she only pays $600 in rent and utilities = $7200 for the year. How's she supposed to get by on that $7000 for food, new clothes for her and her baby, diapers, transportation etc. How could she go back to school or even go back to work, she wouldn't even be able to afford a babysitter! THIS is why welfare is necessary.
Need another example? Think about the 40-something couple whose business has just been run to the ground by the WAL-Mart next door. Or the family who just lost the primary bread-winner to cancer. Without welfare, where are the children going to end up? answer: the exact same cycle. They'll end up in a bad neighbourhood and wind up on drugs. or they just won't be able to afford to go to university to get a better life. like you guys have been argueing- education is key!
Now, here's an even better suggestion for a solution! How about we crack down on the corporations and the rich who are ripping us off by evading their taxes or ripping off their employees. $2.16 billion in taxes is taken from big companies. $2.2 billion is lost by these companies evading their taxes by using loop-holes or tax havens.

ps. i'm offended that you would automatically assume that I'm a man. Is it because I actually made strong, valid arguements?

[lam-boy]

Originally posted by peacekeeper
First off, I'd like to say that NONE of you are going to be filthy rich when you're older. More likely, you'll have a point in your life where you'll be nearly broke. It could happen to anyone! At that point in your life, look back at this moment and remember what an ass you were.
In response to Sputnik, I never said those houses were uninhabited, I said, PEOPLE LIVE THERE! And I know where that money comes from. Here's a question for you: If you didn't have to give money to the government to redistribute, what would you do with the extra income? You'd probably buy a new computer game so you could hide in your house and turn a blind eye to the growing poverty surrounding you.

NOT ALL POOR PEOPLE ARE ADDICTED OR DISABLED!!!!
50% of single mothers are living in poverty. No I don't expect the government to find them husbands (as some idiot suggested on another post), but consider this situation.
A 20 year old in college gets knocked up by a boyfriend who leaves her. She had a bright future but now she has to drop out of school and her mommy and daddy aren't there to help. She takes a full time job for the first 8 months of pregnancy at say (I'll be generous) $12. That's about $15000 in that 8 months. She has the baby and has to stay at home for at least two months. Again, I'll be generous...she only pays $600 in rent and utilities = $7200 for the year. How's she supposed to get by on that $7000 for food, new clothes for her and her baby, diapers, transportation etc. How could she go back to school or even go back to work, she wouldn't even be able to afford a babysitter! THIS is why welfare is necessary.
Need another example? Think about the 40-something couple whose business has just been run to the ground by the WAL-Mart next door. Or the family who just lost the primary bread-winner to cancer. Without welfare, where are the children going to end up? answer: the exact same cycle. They'll end up in a bad neighbourhood and wind up on drugs. or they just won't be able to afford to go to university to get a better life. like you guys have been argueing- education is key!
Now, here's an even better suggestion for a solution! How about we crack down on the corporations and the rich who are ripping us off by evading their taxes or ripping off their employees. $2.16 billion in taxes is taken from big companies. $2.2 billion is lost by these companies evading their taxes by using loop-holes or tax havens.

ps. i'm offended that you would automatically assume that I'm a man. Is it because I actually made strong, valid arguements?

who the fuck asked her to be stupid and get knocked up
if shes so smart why is stuck in a rut with an unplanned pregnancy?

[Wildcat]

Originally posted by lam-boy


who the fuck asked her to be stupid and get knocked up
if shes so smart why is stuck in a rut with an unplanned pregnancy?

:werd: , and dont say some shit like "oh it goes against morals" and "she shouldnt have to"... fuck that, learn to bite the bullet, life isnt perfect, people need to take some responsibility, the world isnt full of handouts... well unless your an indian :stirs the pot: :)

[Shaolin]

Originally posted by peacekeeper
[B]First off, I'd like to say that NONE of you are going to be filthy rich when you're older. More likely, you'll have a point in your life where you'll be nearly broke. It could happen to anyone! At that point in your life, look back at this moment and remember what an ass you were.

Why don't you go jump to more conclusions.. are you so close minded to your way of thinking to not even give it some thought that there are people out there actually TAKE RESPONSIBILITY or have a concept called PLANNING which obviously doesn't cross your mind one bit.



Here's a question for you: If you didn't have to give money to the government to redistribute, what would you do with the extra income? You'd probably buy a new computer game so you could hide in your house and turn a blind eye to the growing poverty surrounding you.

Any reasonable person out there would look at the personal finances and decide, hmm do i really need a computer? or should i think of what i really need.. like maybe retirement? cost benefit factor, the ones who don't know kick themselves in the head.. education is the answer to that, not continuously supporting stupid people for their mistakes.



50% of single mothers are living in poverty. No I don't expect the government to find them husbands.
A 20 year old in college gets knocked up by a boyfriend who leaves her. She had a bright future but now she has to drop out of school and her mommy and daddy aren't there to help. She takes a full time job for the first 8 months of pregnancy at say (I'll be generous) $12.

Once again, I put emphasis on education.. maybe the person in your example should think of consequences.. Newton's 3 Laws of Motion, and one of them happens to be For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
Maybe this poor young girl should've thought about her consequences before she considered boning her dumbass good for nothing boyfriend that's there for a quick hit and run. Call a girl that doesn't have sex whatever you want, in the end, she's not the one that puts herself in a situation where she has to work at a dead end job, paying for her child support and getting disowned by her parents.. Majority of mistakes can be avoided if logical thinking gets put into consideration.. hard concept? i don't think so.


Need another example? Think about the 40-something couple whose business has just been run to the ground by the WAL-Mart next door. Or the family who just lost the primary bread-winner to cancer. Without welfare, where are the children going to end up? answer: the exact same cycle. They'll end up in a bad neighbourhood and wind up on drugs. or they just won't be able to afford to go to university to get a better life. like you guys have been argueing- education is key!

Welcome to the wonderful of Capitalism, if you get yourself into business, you better know what you're getting yourself into. I'm not saying not having welfare is a solution, but maybe heavier restrictions on the application of welfare should be put into place, because there's no reason why "US" the taxpayers should be paying for people who decides to jump on the welfare wagon because it's the easy way out without consequence. And no, they won't end up in bad neighborhoods, if I know a person who pays 1500 bucks a month in bills, works full time and just make enough to get by every month to go to school and have a life, EVERYONE can too.. it's not about fate or luck, it's about choices.. too many lazy people take the easy way out because they don't WANT to do it.. and taxpayers are paying for it.


Now, here's an even better suggestion for a solution! How about we crack down on the corporations and the rich who are ripping us off by evading their taxes or ripping off their employees. $2.16 billion in taxes is taken from big companies. $2.2 billion is lost by these companies evading their taxes by using loop-holes or tax havens.

I'd like to see the source of these figures on how exactly 2.2 billion dollars of taxes get evaded every year without something being done about it. They have the muscle to make or break an economy (hi Nortel) but I find these figures a bit outrageous.

I don't even like to talk about politics because i find it boring.. but i thought i'd join in on the debate for once.

EDIT: I'm no good with these quote commands.

[davidI]

Originally posted by RiCE-DaDDy
In other words, we are all right wing!

davidI, are you saying immigration is the cause and problem? Reducing immigration will make this country worse plain and simple. it'll make life for you harsher.

Did you even read the entire thread? Multiple times it's been said (by me and others) that IMMIGRATION IS NEEDED BY THIS COUNTRY. I've made my point multiple times so I have no idea how you miss it but the fact of the matter is that letting in broke ass uneducated immigrants is not going to help reduce our countries poverty. If we have a worker shortage then sure we might need some citizens without a very good background but to me we don't have a worker shortage for those sorts of job positions until there isn't a single person (other than disabled) on welfare. Honestly, I don't know whether I'd rather reject dumb fucks at the border or boot people who don't read entire threads and try to make people (me) out to be racists out of this country.

[davidI]

Now that Rice-Daddy has me all pissed off I'm going to rip into the post peacekeeper made on page 2.


Originally posted by peacekeeper
[B]wow. some of the capitalist mindsets here make me sick.

do you really think that the government is doing too much for the poor? do you really think that the poor just don't exist? that Canada is an easy country to get into? come on people! open your eyes!

It costs $500 and you need 10k in the bank according to Riceeater. Sounds easy to me.



Government funding since the liberals have gotten elected has decreased in EVERY SINGLE federal cabinet ministry by 10 to 60% (check out Paul Martin's 1995 budget if you don't believe me. none of the cuts have been restored). How can this have any good effects at all? this has, of course, had a disproportionate effect on those you call "lazy", the poor.

Maybe you should look at where the spending goes. Throwing money away does not solve any problems. You may be right that spending has gone down but somehow the liberals have still managed to give Jacque Villeneuve $12 Million to put a 2"x2" embroidery of the canadian flag on his uniform. I didn't even notice it until it was pointed out in the National Post. Then there is the sponsorship scandal. The problem isn't the amount of money in the system, it's where it is going.



as gweedo said, welfare is the mostly highly publicized social program for the poor. yes, i'm willing to admit that some people take advantage of welfare but those numbers are miniscule compared to the amount of people who genuinely need help. personally, when i think of the people who do abuse the system i think of of white men in their early twenties with no responsibilities (no kids no morgage etc).


Only people who should qualify are the disabled in my opinion. Your point about a girl getting knocked up - yes that sux...perhaps provide some sort of government welfare loan due back in 5 years or something. Either way I don't respect anyone living in a country with an economy as strong as ours who doesn't work.



As for the poor not existing? when you include the effects of inflation, minimum wage has only increased by an average of 5 cents over the last decade.

Ask any economist what they feel about minimum wage. It acts as a price floor. It prevents market forces from acting how they should and is more of an election ploy than anything else.



i could go on and on about how hard it is to get EI now. or how soup kitchens are now having to turn people away because they can't feed everyone that the government no longer concerns itself with. or how all of this legislation has an even more adverse effect on women and minorities. ask me to explain. i dare you.

If it's so hard to get EI then how come all of my landscaping buddies go on it every winter because they can't find 'seasonal employment.' No shit they're not going to be able to sod in Calgary in December but the gov't seems to feel that the only work a 20 year old landscaper can do is lay sod so they pay them. It sux that all of these bums on the street don't get there soup but maybe if they stopped buying liquor they could afford a decent meal. Yes, I realize alcoholism is a disease etc. but a government program dealing with treating that problem is better than handouts.


for now i'll tackle your immigration debate. how about reading a book, eh? you really think that Canada lets in any slob who applies? even people who claim refugee status have to meet certain quotas. when you apply for citizenship there's a long checklist which takes into account your education, your connections in canada, your means to get here and to care for yourself while you are here. as it's been stated here, people aren't allowed to tap into our society's safety net for a number of years after they've been here.

I've been arguing this point the whole way along but what do you think poor immigrants resort to when they can't tap into our social programs? Crime. I have my utmost respect for those that find employment and support their family while supporting our economy but this doesn't always happen. That rubs me the wrong way.


the real problem with immigration to canada are the road blocks that we set in their way. i'm not saying to make it easier to get into Canada, i'm saying once they're in Canada make it easier for them. Most foreign degrees are not recognized in Canada. That is why you were told to ask your taxi driver for his education. he could be a doctor and not able to work in a hospital. who cares if he has a strong accent. are you so narrow-minded that you can't understand that not everyone in this world who is worthwhile speaks perfect english.

So you're saying that the taxi driver who can't understand the directions to my house should be able to perform surgery on me?
:rolleyes:

[Khyron]

Originally posted by davidI
So you're saying that the taxi driver who can't understand the directions to my house should be able to perform surgery on me?
:rolleyes:

Actually this is one point that is a problem. Some surgeons in India are just as good if not better than any Canadian surgeon, but rather than have some sort of equivalence test, the Canadian medical boards don't acknowledge it. It's a lot easier to find a translator than a brain surgeon and it's rather a waste to have said brain surgeon driving a cab or bussing tables.

The same applies to engineers, archetects, etc.

One of the other ironies about welfare is that the recipients are often so embarrased about it, they buy more expensive food etc, don't use coupons, never get generic, just to put up a fake image to the clerk at the store. Gay but true.

Khyron

[Super_Geo]

I think an individual's views on welfare is really dependent on how empathetic they are.

There are those who apprechiate the fact that people are born into different circumstances out there and simply do not have the same oppertunities and upbringings that other have. Of course public education is free and everyone has the potential to do well, but how likely they are to capitalize on that potential is something that is outside of their control. You can't control how your parents bring you up, and you can't control the values that they give you. If your parents push for you to have a solid education the likeliness of you achieving that is much greater than having two deadbeats who have no drive themselves. It has a very cyclic nature to it. Not always, but most of the time.

What you also have to think about (davidI especially) is that society is built a certain way. There's a sense of Dawinist evolution to it. Our society is set up for stability and the maintenence of the status quo. That's how societal structures survive and that's what they evolve towards... the most stable equalibrium between all its members. Transference amongst economic classes are, in theory and practice, kept to a minimum. If you're born into a poor familiy you're more likely to stay poor. If you're born into a rich family, you're more likey to stay rich. Of course there are exceptions to the rule. You'd have to be pretty naive to believe otherwise. It's not most ideal system on a moral level, but it does ensure the stability and further evolution of the society.



Originally posted by davidI
I've been arguing this point the whole way along but what do you think poor immigrants resort to when they can't tap into our social programs? Crime. I have my utmost respect for those that find employment and support their family while supporting our economy but this doesn't always happen. That rubs me the wrong way.

That's an unfair conclusion that, as far as I know, you have no evidence to support. That you drew a conclusion like that as something even close to an absolute shows how little of the world you understand outside of your own bubble.

[davidI]

^ I realize what you're saying and I do understand the nature of society and have the realization that enforcing public poilicy is in the best interests of everyone. I'm just being a cynic towards the people who feel that we should elect the NDP and move towards an egalitarian society. Obviously the ideology of it is profound but in practice an egalitarian or communist society is bound to fail due to greedy human nature. I infact agree with all of what you have said Super_Geo. I am actually much more liberal than most of my friends but I've had to exagerate my conservative views in this thread because some of the ignorance and obvious lack of knowledge is profound. The only point I'm going to ask you about is you saying that a persons ability to capitalize on their potential is out of their control. I realize what you mean with this statement and I do agree, but I fail to see how providing these people with welfare or other social programs will do anything but perpetuate the cycle. Often the only way to motivate someone is to take away the handouts. If I had two lazy deadbeat parents who abused E.I. or Welfare or any other gov't run programs I would be very likely to do the same just as you stated because I see how easy it is to live a comfortable life by being a deadbeat. If those same lazy deadbeat parents had no choice other than to live on the street or find a job I would imagine that they would opt to work to retain the few comforts that they have and this work ethic would be passed down to the child.

Khyron, I also totally agree with you. I agree that there should be equivalence exams for professionals that want to continue with their expertise in Canada. In many professions I know that there are exams or courses that you can take to qualify for a recognized degree but sometimes they take a year or two due to the different practices, procedures and products available in Canada. It would be dumb to say that experts should not be able to practice their trades here - my point was just that they need to have the knowledge necessary to work in a safe manner. I can guarantee that I have sat in Cabs with drivers who would score 15 points higher than me on an IQ exam - the point I was trying to make is not that they're lesser....just that their expertise may not be useable here. My point was solely that if the cabbie cannot understand the directions to my house then how would it be safe for him to be practicing medicine on me? I'm sure he would have a similar level of knowledge to a Canadian doctor but that still does not mean that he could properly diagnose me. If he misunderstands a colleague in an ER it could mean life or death. Like you said, if they can qualify with an equivalence exam there is no need to deny them a job. The fact that peacemaker is trying to say knock down all the barriers for immigrants is what scares me. I've taken a few pyschology courses and could probably give some pretty good advice to people. If I had a PhD and I was in Japan I would STILL not expect the government to allow me to advise their citizens on things such as suicide when I don't have the ability to fully understand them or the way their culture operates.

[davidI]

Oh, I forgot to address that last bit that you quoted me on Super-Geo. The evidence I have of that occuring is what happens everyday amongst people I know.

I don't think anyone would argue that lower income areas tend to have more crime, correct? I could look up the stats but I'm pretty sure Forest Lawn has more crime than Pump Hill. Anyways, I'm not trying to say that the reason there is more crime is because there are more immigrants or anything like that - the point is just that lower income areas tend to have more crime.

The point I WAS trying to make with the comment you quoted me on is that if you don't have access to social programs you're more likely to resort to crime. I don't understand why you want me to bring evidence to back that up because I think it should be obvious. I'm pretty sure everyone would agree that if there were no social programs to support those in poverty there would be more crime, correct? I just intended to say that if someone (in this case an immigrant) cannot access the programs then what are they going to do? Live on the street or break into a couple cars?

Hell, if I was living on the street and the soup kitched couldn't provide me with food then I'd sling some crack, steal some cars and pimp some hoes. Obviously this is why there ARE social programs in place. The reason it is not a cut and dry issue is because if you take away too much crime rises and if you give too much the system is abused.

The problem with some people's ideas is that you can't *cough NDP cough* throw money at a problem and expect it to go away. It takes thinking and efficient management of the funds to do the most good. That is why private business is more efficient than government run businesses - a view to profit.

[sputnik]

Originally posted by peacekeeper
In response to Sputnik, I never said those houses were uninhabited, I said, PEOPLE LIVE THERE! And I know where that money comes from. Here's a question for you: If you didn't have to give money to the government to redistribute, what would you do with the extra income? You'd probably buy a new computer game so you could hide in your house and turn a blind eye to the growing poverty surrounding you.

I actually wouldnt buy anything with my extra money. I would just properly invest it. As it stands right now I invest a fair bit of my extra income and I have never had a car that was less than 15 years old.


NOT ALL POOR PEOPLE ARE ADDICTED OR DISABLED!!!!
50% of single mothers are living in poverty. No I don't expect the government to find them husbands (as some idiot suggested on another post), but consider this situation.
A 20 year old in college gets knocked up by a boyfriend who leaves her. She had a bright future but now she has to drop out of school and her mommy and daddy aren't there to help. She takes a full time job for the first 8 months of pregnancy at say (I'll be generous) $12. That's about $15000 in that 8 months. She has the baby and has to stay at home for at least two months. Again, I'll be generous...she only pays $600 in rent and utilities = $7200 for the year. How's she supposed to get by on that $7000 for food, new clothes for her and her baby, diapers, transportation etc. How could she go back to school or even go back to work, she wouldn't even be able to afford a babysitter! THIS is why welfare is necessary.

So now we are supposed to tell girls that they can be complete whores, get pregnant because "dont worry, the government and its populous will work FOR YOU". Maybe we should start sending the message that having kids is something you do once you are financially ready, and until then DONT OPEN YOUR LEGS TO EVERY GUY YOU MEET AT THE BAR.


Need another example? Think about the 40-something couple whose business has just been run to the ground by the WAL-Mart next door. Or the family who just lost the primary bread-winner to cancer. Without welfare, where are the children going to end up? answer: the exact same cycle. They'll end up in a bad neighbourhood and wind up on drugs. or they just won't be able to afford to go to university to get a better life. like you guys have been argueing- education is key!

Someone with cancer is basically someone who is disabled. However my company has something called "Long Term Disability" so I dont have to worry about getting sick because my company (which is NON-unionized) will cover me, and all I do is pay a meager $10/cheque (work picks up the rest) so that I am covered.

As for Wal-Mart. There will ALWAYS be bigger fish in the sea. Thats life. Perhaps when his small company was doing really well he should have invested his money into other ventures instead of buying new cars and bigger houses.


Now, here's an even better suggestion for a solution! How about we crack down on the corporations and the rich who are ripping us off by evading their taxes or ripping off their employees. $2.16 billion in taxes is taken from big companies. $2.2 billion is lost by these companies evading their taxes by using loop-holes or tax havens.

ps. i'm offended that you would automatically assume that I'm a man. Is it because I actually made strong, valid arguements? [/B]

They arent evading taxes by using loop-holes. Those loop-holes were discovered by them. Small businesses use them too ALL OF THE TIME.

Remember taxing big business heavily decreases their margins and forces them to layoff people. Or if they arent laying off people they are decreasing their salaries so they are paying LESS in taxes which in turn causes the government to be further in debt.

If things get even worse, they move to the US or Mexico (like Buhler Industries and Palliser Furniture did in Winnipeg) and give their salaries to non-Canadians.

Waiting for your response...

[MerfBall]

Originally posted by lam-boy


who the fuck asked her to be stupid and get knocked up
if shes so smart why is stuck in a rut with an unplanned pregnancy?


Originally posted by Shaolin

Once again, I put emphasis on education.. maybe the person in your example should think of consequences.. Newton's 3 Laws of Motion, and one of them happens to be For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
Maybe this poor young girl should've thought about her consequences before she considered boning her dumbass good for nothing boyfriend that's there for a quick hit and run. Call a girl that doesn't have sex whatever you want, in the end, she's not the one that puts herself in a situation where she has to work at a dead end job, paying for her child support and getting disowned by her parents.. Majority of mistakes can be avoided if logical thinking gets put into consideration.. hard concept? i don't think so.



Originally posted by Wildcat


:werd: , and dont say some shit like "oh it goes against morals" and "she shouldnt have to"... fuck that, learn to bite the bullet, life isnt perfect, people need to take some responsibility, the world isnt full of handouts... well unless your an indian :stirs the pot: :)

Funny how all of you are so quick to lay all the responsibility on the girls. It takes two to tango, and regardless of how stupid she may have been, how bout the guys take some responsibility in this. Now I'm sure not all girls in bars are raging sluts ready to spread their legs to any schmuck who buys her a drink. So it's not like none of these single mothers had the baby with the idea of doing it alone, abortion is always a choice in the beginning. Ask any single mother how many of them wanted to have the baby alone. Ask them how many of them thought their boyfriends would be there with them, but ended up having their asshole guys run off half way throught the pregnancy. Anybody who thinks that any girl would like to have a baby on her own for the sake of having a baby is a retard.

You guys talk like it's so easy, but any of you knock up a girl and I'm sure you'll be singing a different tune. How bout the guys try to keep their dicks in their pants or take 10 seconds to wrap it.

[sputnik]

Originally posted by MerfBall

It takes two to tango

This is an off-topic tangent...

I dont think that anyone will disagree with your comment. No one is blaming the girl and only the girl for getting pregnant. However just as the guys need to think of the consequences so do the girls.

The problem here is that guys can easily bail (NOT THAT IS THE RIGHT THING TO DO) and get away (relatively easily) from supporting the child. The fact that the girl screwed around with an incompetant fuck that took off clearly indicates a BAD judgement on HER part.

Girls at a young age need to be taught to respect themselves and their bodies and only sleep with those that they are willing to have a child with (because anything can happen). If more girls said "No" we wouldnt have such a large problem. I think that many girls dont realize the amount of power they hold with that simple two-letter word. This is not absolving the guys from any responsibility, however it only takes 50% of the population to solve 100% of the problem and I like those odds

Providing welfare is for those that screwed up and genuinely want to turn their life around. Personally I think that in order for the girl to collect any assistance from the government she would need to be in school or actively looking for work and find work within 6 months or so.

[Super_Geo]

Originally posted by davidI
Oh, I forgot to address that last bit that you quoted me on Super-Geo. The evidence I have of that occuring is what happens everyday amongst people I know.

Hence the part about the bubble ;) But it's the same for all of us... it's just how it works, kinda unfortunate.


Originally posted by davidI
I don't think anyone would argue that lower income areas tend to have more crime, correct? I could look up the stats but I'm pretty sure Forest Lawn has more crime than Pump Hill. Anyways, I'm not trying to say that the reason there is more crime is because there are more immigrants or anything like that - the point is just that lower income areas tend to have more crime.

I highly doubt that the effects of the crime in lower income areas even come close to that of higher income ones. Sure there might be more car thefts, B&Es, robberies, and so on... but how many of those do you need to inflict the same amount of monetary damage on society that the Bre-X scandal did? What about Eneron? Nortel? I can guarantee you that the people responsible for those were not poor immigrants who had no access to social programs ;) It doesn't cost a lot to hire more cops for a specific district, but it does cost one hell of a lot to fund year long investigations into corporate scandals, and that's not even looking into the legal fees that come after.

As for the specific point you made, how much do you think it costs the system to police Forest Lawn for a year? And how much do you think is lost they system from having tax evasion in Pump Hill?

There's a thought that's engrained into society that, no matter the situation, the crimes committed by lower class people are more morally wrong than that committed by the rich. If you steal a car you're morally bankrupt filth... but what if you're the head of a multinational corporation with sweat shops overseas that are in deplorable conditions? Well, that gets you a pat on the back, and a generous thanks for the contribution to the economy. I'm not trying to start an argument on globalization and I know that that wasn't a parallel comparison... it's just a quick look on where our own morals stand.

We look down at the poor and their crimes because it is the most visible, when really the crimes by the rest of society have a much greater effect.

[blood drop]

:whocares: :whocares: :whocares: :whocares: :whocares: :whocares: about poverty you kanuk

[Super_Geo]

Originally posted by blood drop
:whocares: :whocares: :whocares: :whocares: :whocares: :whocares: about poverty you kanuk

Haha, look at the brains on this one...

[MerfBall]

Originally posted by Super_Geo

I highly doubt that the effects of the crime in lower income areas even come close to that of higher income ones. Sure there might be more car thefts, B&Es, robberies, and so on... but how many of those do you need to inflict the same amount of monetary damage on society that the Bre-X scandal did? What about Eneron? Nortel? I can guarantee you that the people responsible for those were not poor immigrants who had no access to social programs ;) It doesn't cost a lot to hire more cops for a specific district, but it does cost one hell of a lot to fund year long investigations into corporate scandals, and that's not even looking into the legal fees that come after.

As for the specific point you made, how much do you think it costs the system to police Forest Lawn for a year? And how much do you think is lost they system from having tax evasion in Pump Hill?

There's a thought that's engrained into society that, no matter the situation, the crimes committed by lower class people are more morally wrong than that committed by the rich. If you steal a car you're morally bankrupt filth... but what if you're the head of a multinational corporation with sweat shops overseas that are in deplorable conditions? Well, that gets you a pat on the back, and a generous thanks for the contribution to the economy. I'm not trying to start an argument on globalization and I know that that wasn't a parallel comparison... it's just a quick look on where our own morals stand.

We look down at the poor and their crimes because it is the most visible, when really the crimes by the rest of society have a much greater effect.

Crime is crime regardless take Enron for example. Quoted from ABC News:

Enron's former Chief Financial Officer Andrew Fastow, the highest-ranking company official indicted so far in the government's probe, faces 78 counts of fraud, money laundering and other offenses.

I'd hardly call that a pat on the back. You are right though the Enron fiasco has caused not only a multimillion dollar investigation. And the problems with Nortel was not from any sort of scandal it was just a reflection of the hit telecom and IT took as a whole.

Don't ever think that tax evasion is not a crime it is. When CCRA looks at doing an audit on someone or a company it does a cost/benefit analysis, so joe schmo down the street who lies on his return will not get auditted because the cost to audit outweighs the return. (this of course isn't saying you will not get audited because they do random audits sometimes). But you multiply joe schmo by 1000 times and the dollars adds up. Tax evasion in large corporations is far and few between because of the large footprint they have they are a prime target for audits.

Actually your comparison isn't far off between hiring more cops and the crime commited by large corporations. I think people are forgetting that there are laws that business have to follow even large corporations. The "police" if you like to call it that may have prevented something like the Enron scandal would be in Canada CCRA, how much do you think it would cost to hire more auditors to police the financial practices of corporations?

I disagree that our society looks at crimes committed by lower class people are morally wrong than that committed by the rich. Proof of that really is our laws they aren't designed to protect the rich and not the poor, the law is the law rich or poor.

But, think about this if we lacked the social assistance programs for the poor that we have today. Crime amongst the poor and needy would sky rocket, because there would be no other means for some.