Alberta's Future

[HiTempguy1]

http://business.financialpost.com/news/transportation/fossil-fuel-vehicles-will-vanish-in-8-years-in-twin-death-spiral-for-big-oil-and-big-autos-says-study-that-shocking-the-industry

Beyond has kind of danced around this discussion before, but I think it would be a good conversation to have among the forum goers.

What are your thoughts on the oil industry going forward?

I'm still young at this game, have a lot to learn. All I know is that its mind boggling the changes I've seen since I graduated. 8 years ago, I never would have dreamed some technological progress/ideas would be where they are at now. Electric cars? Weren't even on the radar. The Tesla Roadster was just some toy that nobody paid a lot of attention to.

Alberta could be in some serious trouble. What do we have to offer Canada (and the world) besides our resources? Especially oil and gas? Gas will probably last longer, especially being used in power plants for the time being while solutions are figured out to deal with the ups and downs of renewable power sources.

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e98/hitempguy/alberta%20industry%20gdp_zpsguanbui1.jpg

This is a fascinating article on BC's economy:

http://credbc.ca/role-energy-sector-bcs-economy/

There is always talk of "diversifying" the Alberta economy. Seems a bit like bullshit to me. When service type jobs (and I'm including things like finance and engineering in that description, jobs that can theoretically be done anywhere in the world to provide a service anywhere else) are not limited by location, why be in Alberta?

Are we going to become another Michigan? I suppose time will tell.

[Sugarphreak]

....

[Xtrema]

https://gailtheactuary.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/world-energy-consumption-by-source.png

Have we use less of something because something else came along?

Or is the 1st time in history we are going to see a reduction trend?


The thing is, there won't be any more projects coming in the scale of what we have seen in the last 15 years. It's all about operating profit now and going forward. There is no money to justify expansions.

We do have good infrastructures and eventually, with enough people unemployed that labor become cheap again and with cheap office space, should attract some businesses to move here to set up shop.

Here's the catch 22. Other business won't thrive if oil business booms and poached people. But suppressing oil businesses also hard to make Alberta prosper. Diversification in AB is tough.

[dirtsniffer]

I don't think all of Michigan has gone to shit. Detroit sure, but that would likely be Edmonton.

I still propose the way to diversify Alberta's economy is to shelter any revenue generated from a patented product designed and made in Alberta from tax.

[Buster]

Originally posted by dirtsniffer
I don't think all of Michigan has gone to shit. Detroit sure, but that would likely be Edmonton.

I still propose the way to diversify Alberta's economy is to shelter any revenue generated from a patented product designed and made in Alberta from tax.

This man gets it.

I find it funny that we all stand around with our dicks in our hands, scratching our heads, wondering why we can't create the magical "diversity" in an economy. As if "diversity" is a thing that exists instead of being just a vague descriptor.

The REAL reason we don't have a more diversified economy is because Canadians refuse to reward success...or even really celebrate it. Canada, from a business perspective, is mostly loserville. The biggest missing ingredient in terms of departing from being just resources extractors, is the presence of health capital markets in the venture space. Raising money in Canada is a joke. And it's a cultural thing that I don't think will ever change.

Here's some thing we would need to have in place before we start seeing new industries magically arise from out of nowhere. (Hint: Canadians suck at all of these things):

- functioning supply of early-stage venture, which is limited by the rest of the list
- ability to reward success, and not act like jealous assholes when someone actually ends up getting rich
- stop taxing successful people, so when they do hit on something, they aren't expected to share it with the dopes that didn't write a cheque and take a risk
- much lower taxes on capital gains
- stop complaining about wealth inequality as if it is always a bad thing

[ickyflex]

One thing I think we need is proper incentives for tech companies to open up shop in Calgary.

Albertans are highly educated and we are willing to change our skillset to meet employer demands.

Tech is the way of the future for growth right now and we need a piece of the pie here.

[b_t]

Originally posted by ickyflex
One thing I think we need is proper incentives for tech companies to open up shop in Calgary.

Albertans are highly educated and we are willing to change our skillset to meet employer demands.

Tech is the way of the future for growth right now and we need a piece of the pie here.

No it isn't. Tech jobs are at very high risk of being automated. People at tech companies are constantly trying to develop ways to put themselves out of work.

We might get a decade or two out of tech but just one proper breakthrough (ie. self-programming computers) will eliminate hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of jobs just like that and a fledgling tech sector would be the hardest hit.

[suntan]

Originally posted by b_t


No it isn't. Tech jobs are at very high risk of being automated. People at tech companies are constantly trying to develop ways to put themselves out of work.

We might get a decade or two out of tech but just one proper breakthrough (ie. self-programming computers) will eliminate hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of jobs just like that and a fledgling tech sector would be the hardest hit. The only people that believe this shit are people that don't understand computers.

[speedog]

Originally posted by suntan
The only people that believe this shit are people that don't understand computers.

Really?

Well I must have really been led down the garden path for the 26+ years I was in the telecommunications industry during which a lot of my time was spent working on projects/systems whose main intent was to eliminate jobs through the use of computers and computer programs with the successful outcome of doing just such.

Oh and I do understand computers a wee bit, started out programming PDP1140's with paper punch tape and moved on from there. You do remember those, don't you?

http://www.vintagecomputer.net/digital/pdp11-40/PDP11-40.JPG

[max_boost]

lol

So, Alberta will have less lifted trucks in the future?! :D

And fewer Beyond millionaires from the oil patch. :D

[ZenOps]

I remember seeing university of Calgary ID's made with punchcard holes for computer recognition. Crazy how fast things moved since then.

[Marsh]

Originally posted by Buster


This man gets it.

I find it funny that we all stand around with our dicks in our hands, scratching our heads, wondering why we can't create the magical "diversity" in an economy. As if "diversity" is a thing that exists instead of being just a vague descriptor.

The REAL reason we don't have a more diversified economy is because Canadians refuse to reward success...or even really celebrate it. Canada, from a business perspective, is mostly loserville. The biggest missing ingredient in terms of departing from being just resources extractors, is the presence of health capital markets in the venture space. Raising money in Canada is a joke. And it's a cultural thing that I don't think will ever change.

Here's some thing we would need to have in place before we start seeing new industries magically arise from out of nowhere. (Hint: Canadians suck at all of these things):

- functioning supply of early-stage venture, which is limited by the rest of the list
- ability to reward success, and not act like jealous assholes when someone actually ends up getting rich
- stop taxing successful people, so when they do hit on something, they aren't expected to share it with the dopes that didn't write a cheque and take a risk
- much lower taxes on capital gains
- stop complaining about wealth inequality as if it is always a bad thing

Pretty much all this. Our society is just generally geared towards socialism, and other feel good nonsense. We are not capitalists, or have a capitalist mindset at all. We are a fraction of the size of the US in terms of economy, population, etc.

There just isn't any incentive for people to start new companies and get rewarded richly for them. Any legitimately good idea just gets taken down to the US where it will be appropriately funded, executed and rewarded.

Example: Shopify, which lib retards say Oh look a succesful canadian tech company....which started in California and only a few years ago moved their HQ to Toronto once they gained enough traction and funding in the US first. So many more examples but too long to write out...

Edit: To answer OP, I think Alberta will recover, its just part of the cycle. But it seems worse at this time because of other factors piling on as well, such as shitty gov't policy (Prov and Fed) and the tech/automation of jobs as well as renewable energy nonsense

[flipstah]

A diverse economy will help Alberta. We're very oilcentric.

We need culture.

[Type_S1]

Canada, not just Alberta, is a resource driven economy. Energy, agriculture, mining, lumber, water, etc. Is what has given Canadians the quality of life we are all accustomed to. There is no point in diversifying into BS...Canada needs to support its resource sectors and allow them to become world class. The liberal "woe is me socialist" attitude is what is destroying this country. We should be proud of our industries as we are the bench mark in the world for environmental while developing these resources. Instead of being brain washed by left wing retards that we are bad we need to realize how great we are.

That's how to fix Alberta...fk the BS tech jobs. Let's be honest, no o&g engineer will ever become a software engineer.

[ercchry]

The real issue with startups in calgary is that anyone reliable, educated, and motivated can easily find a well paying job and are risk adverse... leaving a pretty pathetic pool of talent to pick through

[suntan]

Originally posted by speedog


Really?

Well I must have really been led down the garden path for the 26+ years I was in the telecommunications industry during which a lot of my time was spent working on projects/systems whose main intent was to eliminate jobs through the use of computers and computer programs with the successful outcome of doing just such.

Oh and I do understand computers a wee bit, started out programming PDP1140's with paper punch tape and moved on from there. You do remember those, don't you?

http://www.vintagecomputer.net/digital/pdp11-40/PDP11-40.JPG And you believe that transistor based technology will somehow be able to adapt to external stimuli on its own?

You realize that current technology is about as resilient to, say, tomato sauce as we are to hydrogen sulfide?

[ZenOps]

America is still a very young nation. In 1850, 100% of north America was burning wood for energy. Yes, to this day most of Canadas wealth has been from massive natural resources and nearly no finished goods (other than beaver hats)

That does not mean we shouldn't put a few dollars to the future though. Electric cars could definitely come in a big way and be a disruptive technology.

LED light bulbs, which are finally half decent quality and half decent price to manufacture and sell have replaced 5% efficient traditional bulbs. 14nm computer chips sip power while nearing human brain levels of ability.

Although directly competing with Asian nations who already embraced the transistor revolution early might not be a great idea either.

[Seth1968]

Originally posted by suntan
And you believe that transistor based technology will somehow be able to adapt to external stimuli on its own?

You realize that current technology is about as resilient to, say, tomato sauce as we are to hydrogen sulfide?

Or as a rock is to consciousness.

[Xtrema]

Originally posted by ercchry
The real issue with startups in calgary is that anyone reliable, educated, and motivated can easily find a well paying job and are risk adverse... leaving a pretty pathetic pool of talent to pick through

If you a developer, do you want to do something for $80K with 10% of getting rich to do something that's highly complex or do some dumb shit for $100K + Bonus.

That's why tech industry has a tough time surviving here. You can't keep good people around with reasonable wages when resource industry keep poaching at 30% above market.

[Hallowed_point]

It seems that everyone and their dog is starting a micro brewery these days. How much beer can hipsters buy is my question,, :dunno:

[rage2]

Originally posted by Xtrema
If you a developer, do you want to do something for $80K with 10% of getting rich to do something that's highly complex or do some dumb shit for $100K + Bonus.

That's why tech industry has a tough time surviving here. You can't keep good people around with reasonable wages when resource industry keep poaching at 30% above market.
I've bitched about this for years here. Now that we're seeing O&G downturn, we've seen some formerly talented guys spend the last 5-10 years in O&G for the money become pretty much retarded and not someone we'd hire. So not only are they poaching good talent with $, they're making them stupid.

We're a tech company founded in Calgary, and even we had to open up a silicon valley office to hire talent. It's expensive down there, but we're actually getting better quality at not much more money compared to here (at least when dollar was 1:1).

As for automation, that's pretty much my job every day. Automate away jobs. To be fair, we're automating away bottom of the barrel skills. The only jobs we're automating away are jobs where the resources can't move forwards in skills. Over in the bay area, most companies have automated away the receptionist and replaced them with an iPad haha. Click a button, select your appointment, takes a picture and prints out a visitor pass. 2 mins later, the person you're meeting comes out and greets you. So efficient.

If I look back at what we had to hire people to do 10 years ago compared to today, completely different roles. The entry level IT roles today are way more technical and more equivalent to a top sr level role 10 years ago. Tech can have a future here, especially if O&G doesn't make a comeback, but it'll take time to prove that O&G isn't going to throw money at people anymore before other industries want to set up shop here and compete for resources. Your typical desktop support jobs or low end IT jobs won't be around in 10 years though, so there's some truth to that, but that's not what the tech sector is about.

[mazdavirgin]

Originally posted by Xtrema


If you a developer, do you want to do something for $80K with 10% of getting rich to do something that's highly complex or do some dumb shit for $100K + Bonus.

That's why tech industry has a tough time surviving here. You can't keep good people around with reasonable wages when resource industry keep poaching at 30% above market.

I think you're also forgetting how crap the development industry is towards it's employees. It's pretty much expected you're going to work OT for free which is utter bullshit. Not only that but the pay is garbage when you figure in the hours you are expected to put in. School teachers, nurses, and other government employees get paid way more, get better benefits, and don't have to work OT for free.

The industry is frankly shit and that's why they can't retain or hire quality employees.

[Tik-Tok]

Originally posted by max_boost
lol

So, Alberta will have less lifted trucks in the future?! :D


1/2 meat subs for all!

[Toms-SC]

I'm still looking and applying for positions down in the United States. While the thread is titled "Alberta's Future" I question Canada's future. Canadian's hate successful business so I don't see this place as being overly friendly to entrepreneurs. It's all about mah diversity and gib me's.

[Xtrema]

Originally posted by mazdavirgin


I think you're also forgetting how crap the development industry is towards it's employees. It's pretty much expected you're going to work OT for free which is utter bullshit. Not only that but the pay is garbage when you figure in the hours you are expected to put in. School teachers, nurses, and other government employees get paid way more, get better benefits, and don't have to work OT for free.

The industry is frankly shit and that's why they can't retain or hire quality employees.

But that's the industrial norm.

https://www.glassdoor.ca/Salary/Electronic-Arts-Salaries-E1628.htm

That's like bitching about being a plumber when a lawyer get paid more.

And it still doesn't make excuse for the fact that EA cream of the crop pay is what average senior position paid in O&G. And you don't even have to be best of the best to get it.

I have many opportunities to talk to many MS SEs over the years from Ontario and they are all astounded what we all get paid here in Calgary for the role/position.

[Buster]

Originally posted by Toms-SC
I'm still looking and applying for positions down in the United States. While the thread is titled "Alberta's Future" I question Canada's future. Canadian's hate successful business so I don't see this place as being overly friendly to entrepreneurs. It's all about mah diversity and gib me's.

What's strange to me is that most Canadians are proud to be Canadian. Most the time I find it a bit embarrassing.

[mazdavirgin]

Originally posted by Xtrema


But that's the industrial norm.

https://www.glassdoor.ca/Salary/Electronic-Arts-Salaries-E1628.htm

That's like bitching about being a plumber when a lawyer get paid more.

And it still doesn't make excuse for the fact that EA cream of the crop pay is what average senior position paid in O&G. And you don't even have to be best of the best to get it.

I have many opportunities to talk to many MS SEs over the years from Ontario and they are all astounded what we all get paid here in Calgary for the role/position.

That's pretty much my point... The plumber makes more than the developers. Then people wonder why the developers are all like fuck this shit. I work harder and longer hours than everyone else in this town but get paid dick all so I'm going to walk across the street to get paid better for less work. Hence why people have problems with retention.

It's not like there's too many industries out there where highly educated folk are expected to work hilariously long hours for hardly any pay and expected to put up with it. We shouldn't act all surprised when people figure out they are getting taken for a ride and exit the industry.

[ercchry]

Originally posted by mazdavirgin




It's not like there's too many industries out there where highly educated folk are expected to work hilariously long hours for hardly any pay and expected to put up with it. We shouldn't act all surprised when people figure out they are getting taken for a ride and exit the industry.

well... the two industries that come to mind, being two of the few that actually require education... law and medicine both absolutely rape their associates and residents on a $$/hr basis for a good, what? half decade?

[89coupe]

The O&G sector still pays very well, but the level of intelligence and work load has increased significantly. 7.5 hours days have gone, the top performers are working 8-8pm and are being paid extremely well.

To make it in any top level position you need to bust your ass, and be on top of your game at all times.

There are 100's of young workers coming into the work force, hungry for a job and are willing to work twice as hard as the next person to get it.

O&G isn't going anywhere, it's just becoming leaner and meaner.

As for diversification, I'd love to see Calgary promote tourism with huge hotels/casinos, restaurants & entertainment as a draw for the night life and the mountains, hiking, skiing, & golf for the day.

[killramos]

i knew a few people who became software engineers after high school, all thought they were going to end up working for google or making video games. Most of them ended up at oil companies not even making good money once they realize those jobs don't actually exist.

You might as well go to school to "become a ceo" :rofl: your odds are just as good.

[Xtrema]

Originally posted by 89coupe
As for diversification, I'd love to see Calgary promote tourism with huge hotels/casinos, restaurants & entertainment as a draw for the night life and the mountains, hiking, skiing, & golf for the day.

The Chinese are coming.....


Originally posted by mazdavirgin
That's pretty much my point... The plumber makes more than the developers. Then people wonder why the developers are all like fuck this shit. I work harder and longer hours than everyone else in this town but get paid dick all so I'm going to walk across the street to get paid better for less work. Hence why people have problems with retention.

It's not like there's too many industries out there where highly educated folk are expected to work hilariously long hours for hardly any pay and expected to put up with it. We shouldn't act all surprised when people figure out they are getting taken for a ride and exit the industry.

The problem with developers is that it almost has no geographical tie down and easily off shored. The reason Huawei is beating all Western tech companies is that they have a huge pool of Chinese engineers that will work 6/10s to deliver whatever is asked of them. How can western developer that work only 5/8s compete with that?

When I started, I did think about doing dev as a career but decided against it due to the fact that I have OCD and can never let anything go. Good trait as a dev, bad for health. :rofl:

[Seth1968]

Originally posted by Buster


This man gets it.

I find it funny that we all stand around with our dicks in our hands, scratching our heads, wondering why we can't create the magical "diversity" in an economy. As if "diversity" is a thing that exists instead of being just a vague descriptor.

The REAL reason /snip/

The REAL reason is pandering to idealists. Just as much so, bowing down to a CONQUERED Quebec that doesn't do shit but gets all the perks and money.

[Buster]

Originally posted by Seth1968


The REAL reason is pandering to idealists. Just as much so, bowing down to a CONQUERED Quebec that doesn't do shit but gets all the perks and money.

Canadians are like spoiled kids that don't understand what real high performers do to earn money.

[Feruk]

Originally posted by killramos
i knew a few people who became software engineers after high school, all thought they were going to end up working for google or making video games. Most of them ended up at oil companies not even making good money once they realize those jobs don't actually exist.

You might as well go to school to "become a ceo" :rofl: your odds are just as good.
When I was going through school, they were looking to pull software engineering out because it was just really computer science.

Having said that, the few computer engineers I know did wind up working for Google.

[Hallowed_point]

Originally posted by Seth1968
The REAL reason is pandering to idealists. Just as much so, bowing down to a CONQUERED Quebec that doesn't do shit but gets all the perks and money. And we get to listen to their language on flights out of Calgary for the 0.01% of people whom require safety directions in french..:thumbsdow I'm surprised that they don't bitch about the anthem not being sung in french at flames games...

[Seth1968]

Originally posted by Hallowed_point
And we get to listen to their language on flights out of Calgary for the 0.01% of people whom require safety directions in french..:thumbsdow I'm surprised that they don't bitch about the anthem not being sung in french at flames games...

You probably don't want to get me started on the idiocy on all levels of multilingualism.

As much as a despise the Christian God, he got at least one thing right. That is, when he was pissed off, he created multiple languages to fuck things up.

Now as stupid as we are, we embrace the lack of communication ability as special and diverse :rofl:

[rage2]

Originally posted by mazdavirgin
It's not like there's too many industries out there where highly educated folk are expected to work hilariously long hours for hardly any pay and expected to put up with it. We shouldn't act all surprised when people figure out they are getting taken for a ride and exit the industry.

Originally posted by 89coupe
The O&G sector still pays very well, but the level of intelligence and work load has increased significantly. 7.5 hours days have gone, the top performers are working 8-8pm and are being paid extremely well.

To make it in any top level position you need to bust your ass, and be on top of your game at all times.
This. There's been a huge shift in "always accessible" employees in the last 10 years in almost every industry (aside from ones with unionized employees of course). I deal with customers, vendors, pretty much anyone in business at nights, weekends, etc. It's expected of you because you're not getting paid big bucks to be only available 9-5 anymore. A big life skill these days is to figure out how to juggle personal life with work commitments.

I guess you can thank Blackberry and the iPhone for this shift.

[Xtrema]

Originally posted by rage2
I guess you can thank Blackberry and the iPhone for this shift.

And globalization and offshoring.

I had too many 5am and 9pm meetings when I was needed to deal with that shit.

[dino_martini]

Originally posted by Hallowed_point
It seems that everyone and their dog is starting a micro brewery these days. How much beer can hipsters buy is my question,, :dunno:

Barber shops and breweries. Welcome to the new Albeerta...

[rage2]

Originally posted by dino_martini
Barber shops and breweries. Welcome to the new Albeerta...
Trying too hard to be Portland or something.

[ercchry]

Originally posted by dino_martini


Barber shops and breweries. Welcome to the new Albeerta...

only NDP approved businesses you can open, and for the clientele... well you might as well drink this government away in style :rofl:

[Sugarphreak]

...

[tonytiger55]

Some interesting pints made. I would argue that Alberta's problem is that it does not use its people as its best resource.
There are very talented people here (I don’t mean in terms of tech) who are overlooked by a 70/80’s style management. If companies hire the same kind of people, where do you get the different perspectives/ideas to drive innovation?
I don’t think I would argue wealth inequality, I think a better term is the distribution of the wealth and the management of it (which leads to the first point).

I would also add, failure should not be rewarded. People who make important financial decisions do not always know the value of the money they are acting upon. Link the performance to their pension, their children’s RRSP. Then you will start to see who is good at what they do and the idiots who are just good at buttering peoples bums.

My last point, I don't think Canadians are that bad. I just think the conditions of the market place sets people up to fail. I've seen a ton of talented people leave because so much of the industry is monopolised.

[ZenOps]

I still think Canada (alberta) should buy the Turk and Caicos.

We have the one thing that you really need to build a great island, tons of exportable energy.

The US messed up all their islands (including 40 cent per kwh Hawaii) and Peurto Rico because they didn't have the basic resources, and started way too early, to get them seeded and growing properly.

[dj_patm]

Originally posted by Hallowed_point
It seems that everyone and their dog is starting a micro brewery these days. How much beer can hipsters buy is my question,, :dunno:

And shitty National rip offs.

When the recent round of commercial property tax hikes went out and there was all of the panic about downtown bars and restaurants closing I had to laugh.

Just because you want to open up a business, doesn't mean you should. How many "Beer/Bier/Ale - Halls/Haus/House/Taverns" and high end steak houses do people think a city of 1.4 million can support long term? Especially with a mostly suburban population. Were all these businesses built on the idea that taxes will never go up and people will always go out for $50 lunches?

For the most part, Albertans are super entitled.

You see it in the people. Whether it be the "entrepreneurs" who think that simply having start up capital means their business idea is solid, the rig workers in the north with no education who are all of the sudden shocked that they can't make bank when oil prices fall so they spend the rest of their savings on "Fuck The NDP" bumper stickers, or the white collar O & G workers that refuse to adjust their expectations when the work dries up. Everyone is just expecting their quality of life to remain status quo while the foundation for that quality of life crumbles around them.

You see it in politics. The province has a revenue and spending problem yet Albertans refuse to take cuts to services or pay more tax.

You see it in the "Equalization" and separation talks, as if simply having oil within some imaginary lines gives us some divine right to hoard wealth from the rest of the country. Best part is we can't even hoard wealth properly. We spent it all when we elected a political party for 40 years that had no problem simply handing out that wealth right back to the people to buy votes without ever seriously worrying about what will happen if the cash cow dries up.

It's all entitlement.

On the bright side I think the entitlement is fading as this new reality/deep cycle sets in long term especially among the educated workforce. I think the political stances of a lot of people have shifted to a more long term view of the provinces health which will be interesting to watch in future elections.

[Hallowed_point]

Originally posted by dj_patm


And shitty National rip offs.

When the recent round of commercial property tax hikes went out and there was all of the panic about downtown bars and restaurants closing I had to laugh.

Just because you want to open up a business, doesn't mean you should. How many "Beer/Bier/Ale - Halls/Haus/House/Taverns" and high end steak houses do people think a city of 1.4 million can support long term? Especially with a mostly suburban population. Were all these businesses built on the idea that taxes will never go up and people will always go out for $50 lunches?

For the most part, Albertans are super entitled.

You see it in the people. Whether it be the "entrepreneurs" who think that simply having start up capital means their business idea is solid, the rig workers in the north with no education who are all of the sudden shocked that they can't make bank when oil prices fall so they spend the rest of their savings on "Fuck The NDP" bumper stickers, or the white collar O & G workers that refuse to adjust their expectations when the work dries up. Everyone is just expecting their quality of life to remain status quo while the foundation for that quality of life crumbles around them.

You see it in politics. The province has a revenue and spending problem yet Albertans refuse to take cuts to services or pay more tax.

You see it in the "Equalization" and separation talks, as if simply having oil within some imaginary lines gives us some divine right to hoard wealth from the rest of the country. Best part is we can't even hoard wealth properly. We spent it all when we elected a political party for 40 years that had no problem simply handing out that wealth right back to the people to buy votes without ever seriously worrying about what will happen if the cash cow dries up.

It's all entitlement.

On the bright side I think the entitlement is fading as this new reality/deep cycle sets in long term especially among the educated workforce. I think the political stances of a lot of people have shifted to a more long term view of the provinces health which will be interesting to watch in future elections.

Totally agree. Personally, I'm sick and tired of hipster wannabe entrepreneurs. Much more to running a successful business than having a cool name and social media presence. We went to the Bourbon Room recently and what a joke that was. Crappy overpriced drinks and snail slow service.

[lasimmon]

Originally posted by Hallowed_point


Totally agree. Personally, I'm sick and tired of hipster wannabe entrepreneurs. Much more to running a successful business than having a cool name and social media presence. We went to the Bourbon Room recently and what a joke that was. Crappy overpriced drinks and snail slow service.

Yah I live in Kensington and there are a ton of hipster garbage places.

If I want a pint I either go to Side Street or Tenth Street Landing. Crowd might be "rough" for some people but the beer is good and cheap.

[max_boost]

Originally posted by dj_patm


And shitty National rip offs.

When the recent round of commercial property tax hikes went out and there was all of the panic about downtown bars and restaurants closing I had to laugh.

Just because you want to open up a business, doesn't mean you should. How many "Beer/Bier/Ale - Halls/Haus/House/Taverns" and high end steak houses do people think a city of 1.4 million can support long term? Especially with a mostly suburban population. Were all these businesses built on the idea that taxes will never go up and people will always go out for $50 lunches?

For the most part, Albertans are super entitled.

You see it in the people. Whether it be the "entrepreneurs" who think that simply having start up capital means their business idea is solid, the rig workers in the north with no education who are all of the sudden shocked that they can't make bank when oil prices fall so they spend the rest of their savings on "Fuck The NDP" bumper stickers, or the white collar O & G workers that refuse to adjust their expectations when the work dries up. Everyone is just expecting their quality of life to remain status quo while the foundation for that quality of life crumbles around them.

You see it in politics. The province has a revenue and spending problem yet Albertans refuse to take cuts to services or pay more tax.

You see it in the "Equalization" and separation talks, as if simply having oil within some imaginary lines gives us some divine right to hoard wealth from the rest of the country. Best part is we can't even hoard wealth properly. We spent it all when we elected a political party for 40 years that had no problem simply handing out that wealth right back to the people to buy votes without ever seriously worrying about what will happen if the cash cow dries up.

It's all entitlement.

On the bright side I think the entitlement is fading as this new reality/deep cycle sets in long term especially among the educated workforce. I think the political stances of a lot of people have shifted to a more long term view of the provinces health which will be interesting to watch in future elections.

dang bravo brah :clap: :clap:

[Gestalt]

Originally posted by dj_patm


And shitty National rip offs.

When the recent round of commercial property tax hikes went out and there was all of the panic about downtown bars and restaurants closing I had to laugh.

Just because you want to open up a business, doesn't mean you should. How many "Beer/Bier/Ale - Halls/Haus/House/Taverns" and high end steak houses do people think a city of 1.4 million can support long term? Especially with a mostly suburban population. Were all these businesses built on the idea that taxes will never go up and people will always go out for $50 lunches?

For the most part, Albertans are super entitled.

You see it in the people. Whether it be the "entrepreneurs" who think that simply having start up capital means their business idea is solid, the rig workers in the north with no education who are all of the sudden shocked that they can't make bank when oil prices fall so they spend the rest of their savings on "Fuck The NDP" bumper stickers, or the white collar O & G workers that refuse to adjust their expectations when the work dries up. Everyone is just expecting their quality of life to remain status quo while the foundation for that quality of life crumbles around them.

You see it in politics. The province has a revenue and spending problem yet Albertans refuse to take cuts to services or pay more tax.

You see it in the "Equalization" and separation talks, as if simply having oil within some imaginary lines gives us some divine right to hoard wealth from the rest of the country. Best part is we can't even hoard wealth properly. We spent it all when we elected a political party for 40 years that had no problem simply handing out that wealth right back to the people to buy votes without ever seriously worrying about what will happen if the cash cow dries up.

It's all entitlement.

On the bright side I think the entitlement is fading as this new reality/deep cycle sets in long term especially among the educated workforce. I think the political stances of a lot of people have shifted to a more long term view of the provinces health which will be interesting to watch in future elections.
:thumbsup: :clap:

110%

Now that the economy is getting better, I wonder what the separation crowd will cry about.

I'm not sure political minds are shifting though. Just lots of blaming, and denial. NDP a vast disapointment just same as the old boss 2.0, but what choice is there anymore. Jokers to the left of me, joker's to the right.

[Gestalt]

Originally posted by Hallowed_point


Totally agree. Personally, I'm sick and tired of hipster wannabe entrepreneurs. Much more to running a successful business than having a cool name and social media presence. We went to the Bourbon Room recently and what a joke that was. Crappy overpriced drinks and snail slow service.

It's not just hipsters, it's any number of self entitled pricks with credit remaining. But the point is solid otherwise.

[avishal26]

Originally posted by Buster


.....

The biggest missing ingredient in terms of departing from being just resources extractors, is the presence of healthy capital markets in the venture space. Raising money in Canada is a joke.....

Here's some thing we would need to have in place before we start seeing new industries magically arise from out of nowhere. ...

- functioning supply of early-stage venture, which is limited by the rest of the list
......


Right on target. In addition, not enough Canadian venture capitalists interested in Canadian O&G sector at this point either.

Canadian Pension Plan Investment Board invests a lot of money, but not as much in Canada as it should (in my opinion). Their investment board should be set-up to look at proposals from various sources in the country with a defined mechanism instead of working through connections for the most part. It is a government (taxpayers) fund after all.

CPPIB should also be supporting diversification needs, infrastructure projects etc as opposed to the various levels of government funding it through debt. CPPIB earned $2 Billion a month on average in 2016 and manages ~$360 Billion in investments. It can be a significant source of income for viable Canadian projects and industry attraction, evaluated at the same level of scrutiny as any other investment opportunity. Yet, it seems CPPIB investment decisions (and Ontario Teachers Pension Fund investments) are not as transparent as one might think. And it is not easy for most corporations to access the fund for ventures.

Government funding decisions are based too much on politics and not enough on long term needs of provinces and the country as a whole.

[Buster]

Originally posted by dj_patm


And shitty National rip offs.

When the recent round of commercial property tax hikes went out and there was all of the panic about downtown bars and restaurants closing I had to laugh.

Just because you want to open up a business, doesn't mean you should. How many "Beer/Bier/Ale - Halls/Haus/House/Taverns" and high end steak houses do people think a city of 1.4 million can support long term? Especially with a mostly suburban population. Were all these businesses built on the idea that taxes will never go up and people will always go out for $50 lunches?

For the most part, Albertans are super entitled.

You see it in the people. Whether it be the "entrepreneurs" who think that simply having start up capital means their business idea is solid, the rig workers in the north with no education who are all of the sudden shocked that they can't make bank when oil prices fall so they spend the rest of their savings on "Fuck The NDP" bumper stickers, or the white collar O & G workers that refuse to adjust their expectations when the work dries up. Everyone is just expecting their quality of life to remain status quo while the foundation for that quality of life crumbles around them.

You see it in politics. The province has a revenue and spending problem yet Albertans refuse to take cuts to services or pay more tax.

You see it in the "Equalization" and separation talks, as if simply having oil within some imaginary lines gives us some divine right to hoard wealth from the rest of the country. Best part is we can't even hoard wealth properly. We spent it all when we elected a political party for 40 years that had no problem simply handing out that wealth right back to the people to buy votes without ever seriously worrying about what will happen if the cash cow dries up.

It's all entitlement.

On the bright side I think the entitlement is fading as this new reality/deep cycle sets in long term especially among the educated workforce. I think the political stances of a lot of people have shifted to a more long term view of the provinces health which will be interesting to watch in future elections.

You missed public employees. They are #1 by far. People who are stupid with their personal finances and run out of money because the market can no longer bear their salary are not "entitled". They are just bad planners.

Entitlement is getting your paycheck from the taxpayer, who is forced/compelled to provide those funds. And then utilizing your monopoly on labour to "collectively bargain" more money from said taxpayer every year.

The difference between a rig worker facing his comeuppance is that he just has a sense of entitlement. A public employee actually gets an entitlement.

The public sector in Canada does immeasurable damage to the projects that we all beg for: "economic diversification", cheaper healthcare and services, etc. The public sector steals talent, crowds out efficient private solutions, sucks up capital that could be used to develop the economy.

You want to fix what is broken in Alberta, and Canada, start by taking a torch to the public sector. Bumper Sticker Rig Worker, is not causing any problems.

[you&me]

/\/\/\

And neither are the entrepreneurs / owners of places like National.

You don't like it? Not your crowd? Shitty service? Fine. Vote with your wallet and go somewhere else more aligned with your preferences.

As entrepreneurs, if they're shitty, they'll fail. If they're good, they'll identify another concept and pivot to meet the demands of their market. Either way, it shouldn't be your concern and regardless of how you feel about their business, they shouldn't be the subject of your pseudo-scorn. Anyone willing to invest their money and employ others should be applauded. Full stop.

[dj_patm]

Originally posted by you&me
/\/\/\

And neither are the entrepreneurs / owners of places like National.

You don't like it? Not your crowd? Shitty service? Fine. Vote with your wallet and go somewhere else more aligned with your preferences.

As entrepreneurs, if they're shitty, they'll fail. If they're good, they'll identify another concept and pivot to meet the demands of their market. Either way, it shouldn't be your concern and regardless of how you feel about their business, they shouldn't be the subject of your pseudo-scorn. Anyone willing to invest their money and employ others should be applauded. Full stop.

Really? Cause when these people lose their businesses they turn to the media blaming everyone but themselves and those who base their political and ideological stances on what they see on CTV and Facebook are then swayed by their shitty blame game and finger pointing and we end up where we are today. A population that believes business owners should be protected above all else, that all taxes are bad taxes and that Rachel Notley alone controls the price of Oil and sits there in her office all day knocking off a few points for kicks (don't get me wrong, she has totally shit the bed in her decision making but that's another topic. Just saying that people actually believe she alone is the cause for all the pain in the province right now).

There's nothing wrong with spending your money however you like and yes, those who employ people and pay them a good wage (as opposed to those whose entire business model is based on paying the lowest wages possible) should be applauded. Just don't go crying to the media about how the government fucked your dime a dozen "Beer Hall" when in reality it was just another entry in an over saturated, declining market with little differentiation. Owning a business isn't some right. It's up to the responsible business owner to be aware of changing market conditions and to evaluate conservative economic outlooks.

I also agree that the public sector could use massive trimming.

[you&me]

Originally posted by avishal26


Right on target. In addition, not enough Canadian venture capitalists interested in Canadian O&G sector at this point either.

Canadian Pension Plan Investment Board invests a lot of money, but not as much in Canada as it should (in my opinion). Their investment board should be set-up to look at proposals from various sources in the country with a defined mechanism instead of working through connections for the most part. It is a government (taxpayers) fund after all.

CPPIB should also be supporting diversification needs, infrastructure projects etc as opposed to the various levels of government funding it through debt. CPPIB earned $2 Billion a month on average in 2016 and manages ~$360 Billion in investments. It can be a significant source of income for viable Canadian projects and industry attraction, evaluated at the same level of scrutiny as any other investment opportunity. Yet, it seems CPPIB investment decisions (and Ontario Teachers Pension Fund investments) are not as transparent as one might think. And it is not easy for most corporations to access the fund for ventures.

Government funding decisions are based too much on politics and not enough on long term needs of provinces and the country as a whole.

You're right; both the CPPIB and OTPP (among others) have a lot of weight to throw around.

Unfortunately, the current environment in Canada is at odds with the mandate of a pension fund, which is to make sound, low-risk investments. If there are not enough sound or low risk investments in Canada, they are obligated to invest elsewhere.

[Gestalt]

Originally posted by Buster


You missed public employees. They are #1 by far. People who are stupid with their personal finances and run out of money because the market can no longer bear their salary are not "entitled". They are just bad planners.

Entitlement is getting your paycheck from the taxpayer, who is forced/compelled to provide those funds. And then utilizing your monopoly on labour to "collectively bargain" more money from said taxpayer every year.

The difference between a rig worker facing his comeuppance is that he just has a sense of entitlement. A public employee actually gets an entitlement.

The public sector in Canada does immeasurable damage to the projects that we all beg for: "economic diversification", cheaper healthcare and services, etc. The public sector steals talent, crowds out efficient private solutions, sucks up capital that could be used to develop the economy.

You want to fix what is broken in Alberta, and Canada, start by taking a torch to the public sector. Bumper Sticker Rig Worker, is not causing any problems.

Frightening. Hopefully you arent a citizen and can't vote.

[Hallowed_point]

Originally posted by dj_patm


Really? Cause when these people lose their businesses they turn to the media blaming everyone but themselves and those who base their political and ideological stances on what they see on CTV and Facebook are then swayed by their shitty blame game and finger pointing and we end up where we are today. A population that believes business owners should be protected above all else, that all taxes are bad taxes and that Rachel Notley alone controls the price of Oil and sits there in her office all day knocking off a few points for kicks (don't get me wrong, she has totally shit the bed in her decision making but that's another topic. Just saying that people actually believe she alone is the cause for all the pain in the province right now).

There's nothing wrong with spending your money however you like and yes, those who employ people and pay them a good wage (as opposed to those whose entire business model is based on paying the lowest wages possible) should be applauded. Just don't go crying to the media about how the government fucked your dime a dozen "Beer Hall" when in reality it was just another entry in an over saturated, declining market with little differentiation. Owning a business isn't some right. It's up to the responsible business owner to be aware of changing market conditions and to evaluate conservative economic outlooks.

I also agree that the public sector could use massive trimming.

100% agree. if I'm spending $13 for a drink, it should come with timely service. Sorry, I don't want to sit in your dimly lit Frank & Oak clad patron dwelling ironic funk music playing hippy joint.

[Swank]

Originally posted by rage2

...Your typical desktop support jobs or low end IT jobs won't be around in 10 years though... Maybe in O&G, but public sector is still decades behind in my experience. They'll stick to the 'old ways' for a lot longer.

[Xtrema]

Originally posted by Swank
Maybe in O&G, but public sector is still decades behind in my experience. They'll stick to the 'old ways' for a lot longer.

Unions.

Progress is very slow at union shops.

[ickyflex]

Originally posted by Gestalt


Frightening. Hopefully you arent a citizen and can't vote.

Likewise to you

[Swank]

Originally posted by Xtrema


Unions.

Progress is very slow at union shops. Correct, I'm doing my best to fight off the DGAF attitude, this environment is so conducive to it. On the plus side it's easy to look like a superstar :dunno:

[95EagleAWD]

Originally posted by dj_patm


And shitty National rip offs.

When the recent round of commercial property tax hikes went out and there was all of the panic about downtown bars and restaurants closing I had to laugh.

Just because you want to open up a business, doesn't mean you should. How many "Beer/Bier/Ale - Halls/Haus/House/Taverns" and high end steak houses do people think a city of 1.4 million can support long term? Especially with a mostly suburban population. Were all these businesses built on the idea that taxes will never go up and people will always go out for $50 lunches?

For the most part, Albertans are super entitled.

You see it in the people. Whether it be the "entrepreneurs" who think that simply having start up capital means their business idea is solid, the rig workers in the north with no education who are all of the sudden shocked that they can't make bank when oil prices fall so they spend the rest of their savings on "Fuck The NDP" bumper stickers, or the white collar O & G workers that refuse to adjust their expectations when the work dries up. Everyone is just expecting their quality of life to remain status quo while the foundation for that quality of life crumbles around them.

You see it in politics. The province has a revenue and spending problem yet Albertans refuse to take cuts to services or pay more tax.

You see it in the "Equalization" and separation talks, as if simply having oil within some imaginary lines gives us some divine right to hoard wealth from the rest of the country. Best part is we can't even hoard wealth properly. We spent it all when we elected a political party for 40 years that had no problem simply handing out that wealth right back to the people to buy votes without ever seriously worrying about what will happen if the cash cow dries up.

It's all entitlement.

On the bright side I think the entitlement is fading as this new reality/deep cycle sets in long term especially among the educated workforce. I think the political stances of a lot of people have shifted to a more long term view of the provinces health which will be interesting to watch in future elections.

Damn, well said.

On a related (probably) note, I meet a lot of people here from Alberta that have come back when the easy jobs dried up out west, and they realized they're living in a pretty crappy part of the country, with stupid winters and short summers.

Aside from hydro, Ontario is pretty sweet so far.

[Inzane]

Originally posted by 95EagleAWD

Aside from hydro, Ontario is pretty sweet so far.

This is getting off topic, but can you say that from the perspective of a "car guy", that presumably still likes to drive and modify fast cars?

I'd been under the impression for the last 15+ years that Ontario, with their government, policies and law enforcement was our version of hell on earth for the car hobby.

[Gestalt]

Originally posted by Inzane


This is getting off topic, but can you say that from the perspective of a "car guy", that presumably still likes to drive and modify fast cars?

I'd been under the impression for the last 15+ years that Ontario, with their government, policies and law enforcement was our version of hell on earth for the car hobby.

You just need to be creative.

[ercchry]

The flow of traffic in Ontario is so much faster than here... and they actually have race tracks

[JRSC00LUDE]

Originally posted by Swank
On the plus side it's easy to look like a superstar :dunno:

Till you get noticed by the Union, then you'll be coaxed to cut production under some bullshit guise of safety or accuracy. When in reality it's just because you're making people look bad. :rofl:

They'll drag you down to their level long before you bring them to yours, collective will after all!

[95EagleAWD]

Originally posted by Inzane


This is getting off topic, but can you say that from the perspective of a "car guy", that presumably still likes to drive and modify fast cars?

I'd been under the impression for the last 15+ years that Ontario, with their government, policies and law enforcement was our version of hell on earth for the car hobby.

Don't go 50 over, or you lose your car... and we have aircare here, so every two years it goes for emissions. That might be on it's way out though.

Other than that, I haven't noticed much, the cops let you speed 25 over on the highways around TO and I finally have legal tint on my windows.

Can't complain.

[A790]

I've been rolling around the GTA in a lowered Golf with tinted out windows for the past week and cops haven't even given me a second glance.

[95EagleAWD]

Originally posted by A790
I've been rolling around the GTA in a lowered Golf with tinted out windows for the past week and cops haven't even given me a second glance.

And they won't. It's great.

I will say, I'll never complain about traffic in Edmonton ever again though.

[A790]

Originally posted by 95EagleAWD


And they won't. It's great.

I will say, I'll never complain about traffic in Edmonton ever again though.
There's not much worse than being stuck on the 401 after an accident...

[95EagleAWD]

Originally posted by A790

There's not much worse than being stuck on the 401 after an accident...

Hope you've got lots of gas, and maybe a book to read lol.