Thoughts on/science behind chiropractic care?

[J-hop]

now that I've become a lot more active I'm thinking about visiting a chiro for preventative maintenance specifically around lower back pain. I don't currently have any lower back pain but I have several times in the past and want to try adding something different to my routine other than my current core strengthening work and stretching.

I'm a little skeptical on chiro though, a lot of stigma that they "set you up to be a repeat customer" and don't really do much other than temporary relief. I Haven't had much time to really dig into the science and thought I'd start here.

Anyone care to share their thoughts or reasearch behind the validity of the practice? Personal experiences? Did you find you improved in the long run or was it just a temporary fix?

Also a hot topic always seems to be neck adjustments. I've watched about 20 videos and neck adjustments just creep me out so I doubt I'll ever allow them to do that. Anyone research much into the safety of neck adjustments?

Probably been a million threads about this in the past but I didn't find any recent ones.

[RickDaTuner]

From what I understand general body pain from joints tend to be a result of of poorly exercised muscles which leads to muscle strain of the lesser used muscle in the area.
Chiropractors use stretches and other movements to release the strain on the affected muscles, but it does nothing to eliminate the problem, as its just temporary relief.

i've been reading that people have been having better and longer lasting success with massage rollers, as they stretch, re-align and work the affected muscles.

my $0.02

[Skyline_Addict]

I've had lower back problems for a while and it has gotten better now. Giving my body the chance to properly rest, improving my core strength by working out, and not having to sit in front of a computer all day for the past 10 months made the difference for me.

I tried chiropractic a few years ago and after about 10 sessions I decided to stop. I also felt that it was about getting you to be a repeat customer for life and not necessarily targeting your actual problem. The chiro I went to did neck adjustments every time, regardless of the fact that i was in for lower back pain. That's sort of what lead me on to feel that way.

I think a proper massage will have more tangible results, at least when it comes to feeling better.

[J-hop]

Yea I've noticed I've gotten way better pain wise since I moved away from a bodybuilding isolation exercise focus in the gym. Now my main training is Muay Thai, cycling, and a basic starting strength type routine. I think my previous focus was getting me too imbalanced.

I definitely do a lot of foam rolling and have a tiger tail at work I use for my quads after cycling into work.

Looking for something else and though chiropractic care might be an option.

Kinda sounds like the stigma might have some truth to it

[Buster]

It's pretty much just quackery.

And what isn't quackery is just massage.

[Hallowed_point]

Originally posted by Buster
It's pretty much just quackery.

And what isn't quackery is just massage.

:werd: Agree. I went to a chiro a few years ago (have gone to two different chiros) and I was really unimpressed with the "service" rendered. I think it's a scam. They spend most of the appointment talking to you , throw in a couple adjustments and send you on your way with a black and white photo copy telling you to ice/heat your muscles.

[R-Audi]

From someone who deals with back pain fairly often stemming from two compression fractures, Im not sure how I woud get by without chiropractic treatments.
Worth noting a good chiropractor doesnt just adjust your spine, these days they also do Active Release Therapy, accupunture, laser therapy and a few other methods. While it sounds odd it works, and the same treatments are used by almost every major sports team and therapist.

[botox]

Originally posted by Skyline_Addict
I tried chiropractic a few years ago and after about 10 sessions I decided to stop. I also felt that it was about getting you to be a repeat customer for life and not necessarily targeting your actual problem. The chiro I went to did neck adjustments every time, regardless of the fact that i was in for lower back pain. That's sort of what lead me on to feel that way.

I think a proper massage will have more tangible results, at least when it comes to feeling better.

Same experience here. Went in for Lower back pains and the guy never touched that area and just did neck and upper back adjustments/cracks. We talked and I said I also had arm/elbow pains and BOOM! he goes and cracks that as well. If they are a pro at anything, it's cracking things! He claimed that he can fix any pains anywhere but of course I would need to keep coming in for the rest of my life. After 10 sessions I ditched chiro and went to physio and they fixed all my arm/elbow and lower back issues in about 2 months (1 visit per week). Every time these pains creep up again I do the same exercises I learned at Physio and they go away cause I'm lazy and don't do them regularly if I feel fine.

[Mitsu3000gt]

It's BS. Any "doctor" that tries to sell you a package of treatments to get you in as many times as possible before your body naturally heals itself is a scam. Kind of like ColdFX.

I've been having back trouble recently (inflamed/strained disc I think?) and saw an Osteopath a couple times, mostly just to learn some exercises to do and have the area worked on a bit. It's one of those 1-2 visit type things then you're done. It did help me but it didn't "cure" me, I'm still waiting for my body to heal itself.

[speedog]

Similar to R-Audi, I've had a single compression fracture plus a herniated disc but I've been very fortunate in that I've had no recurring after effects. On the other hand, my wife is a regular chiropractic patient - a figure skating accident when she was 16 left her with one leg slightly shorter than than the other and while she is most likely more physically fit than any of us on this forum, the slight difference between her two legs is a constant irritant to her hips and back. While she uses acupuncture and active release therapies for longer term relief, her chiropractor provides the short term relief along with rollers, balls and such in our own home.

While I am somewhat sceptical of the whole chiropractic practice, at the same time I can not discount the positive benefits it has provided my wife as well as one of my sons and my daughter. In the end, I will continue to count my blessings that I do not have to endure continuing chronic pain/discomfort issues such as my wife does and the bad auto accident from almost two years ago that she was in has only complicated things with ongoing soft tissue injury issues.

[riander5]

I love all the people here who think its a scam. Once you get adjusted from chiro do you stop living your life and moving and have zero risk of ever going out of alignment or hurting yourself again? How many people here think they become less prone to injury with age?? Retards :rofl:

Backstory, I've had chiro, osteo, massage, dry needling, accupuncture many times... due to sports, weightlifting, people crashing cars into me etc. Nothing is a miracle one stop fix...

For what its worth, if you have musculature issues.. dry needling is the best for that from my experience

Chiropractors are just like every other health practitioner, there are good ones and bad ones. Those of you who go in and get a 2 minute talk and a 2 minute adjustment, you are at the bad ones.

[94CoRd]

This may sound like I either am, or in some way work for a chiropractor, but I do not. I just used to be one of those people who hated chiropractors, and thought they were a complete waste - until I found the right one/clinic.

For those that go in with a specific injury, a good chiropractor will include him or herself in the entire healing process. They will refer you to a physiotherapist, or suggest other treatments like acupuncture, or massage. For those that don't have a specific injury, a chiropractor is just helpful in maintaining health - much like a dentist, or more similarly a massage.

To me, it sounds like most of you just haven't found the right clinic / chiropractor.

[A790]

But they took a weekend course!

[tonytiger55]

Ive had back pain for a long time. Ive seen different chiropractors and physios.

The only benefit I have gained is using a physio that works with actual athletes and also uses acupuncture. This is a short term fix though. Muscle memory always returns.
The majority of the remedy I found is doing yoga.

A lot of the back pain I have had is due to muscle imbalance, so one muscle(s) get lazy. The other compensates. This affects the whole bio mechanics of your body. Your body does not tell you... hell nooo. it just compensates till something seizes up or the over worked muscle cant handle it.

Yoga regularly, (by that I mean doing stuff properly and not over doing yourself) is pretty much the best preventive thing you can do.

[LUDELVR]

It seems like chiros are all in for the return treatment and when you're paying 50 plus for 5 minutes to get a crack where you're not necessarily feeling pain, it seems like a waste.

I went in and like some have said, I had issues with my lower back right above my tailbone and he was busy doing one crack on my neck and upper back. Did not help at all with what I was complaining about and even after telling him, his reply was that I need to keep coming back because each session builds on the next. I came back a second time and after the same speech, I was not sold on this and stopped and did some physio instead and it felt heaps better. I would also had my brother or my wife walk around on my lower back and I would get some major cracks and some AWESOME relief. Don't know if it's healthy or sound but boy does it feel good!

If I ever decide to do any chiro sessions again, I totally want to try this because I think it would be AMAZING!!

Asian chiro (https://youtu.be/41z0r3keJ48)

[Buster]

There are two types of people:

Those who think anecdotal evidence is valid.

Those who know better and rely on the data.



The data do not support: acupuncture, chiro, magic, voodoo dolls, or prayer.

"But it worked for my Aunt!" is not evidence.

And then we wonder why people don't vaccinate their kids.

[phreezee]

My coworker's wife has a fractured vertebrae from a chiropractor. How's that for anecdotal? haha

[Kloubek]

I don't think the whole industry is a scam or a farce, but I think it is being marketed as a sure-fire science and it really isn't. The body is a complex mechanism that relies on everything to play well together. Injure or weaken a muscle here, and something is affected as a result. That in turn puts ______ out of sync. Before you know it, you're a ball of pain and you have one chiro claiming they can solve your issues.

Not quite.

I have had back discomfort for a long time - probably started about 20 years ago. I ended up pulling out my back doing virtually nothing one day a couple of years ago, and it was so bad I felt like I really needed assistance, so I went to give chiropractic work a shot. The first visit was largely the whole assessment thing, and of course I was told my back needed a lot of help. (Probably true, I imagine). He spent 10 minutes working on the issue in question - and as others have said - he barely even touched the area I had issues with. Yet, it DID make a difference. I wasn't totally better, but it helped a little.

I then decided to exhaust my insurance coverage and went for 9 more visits over the next 2 months. While my initial reason for going in faded (as it always does over time) my back never got better overall from where it was prior to the treatments. I still had constant discomfort without any noticeable reduction.

So now I just live with it, and have little faith in chiropractic in general. But the same could be said of many different treatments. People respond differently, so while I don't have a personal faith in it I don't think any of us should rule it out as a possible treatment for others. Give it a shot, and do what works for you.

[A790]

Many office workers with back/neck pain would benefit immensely from using a standing desk. Costs less than a chiro, solves a lot of the problem.

[klumsy_tumbler]

Add me to the list of "non-believers". I went to one to try to address migraines, and ended up getting worse headaches afterwards. Decided to try another fairly recently, and abandoned the notion after the hardcore sales pitch approach he took.

I've had compression fractures in by my back and neck (along with a multitude of other injuries), and physiotherapy has always been my go-to.

That being said, it is very likely that there ARE good chiros out there, and I think that it would be ignorant to say that one type of practitioner (physio included) can fix ALL issues. Just have to find a balanced approach :dunno:

[asp integra]

I for one am a huge believer in chiropractic.

For years I had to pop a daily regiment of a few ibuprofen before doing any sort of activity because of back pain. I am a fit, athletic guy and still had these problems.

Started seeing a chiropractor a few years ago and I have probably taken a total of 30 ibuprofen in the last few years. I feel better, sleep better, and have no nagging back issues anymore. I would highly recommend it.

[ercchry]

I'll take a good sports medicine focused rmt over chiro any day of the week

There is for sure some science involved, as a lot of nerves and arteries can get pinched in a misaligned spine... but just like physio... of you're not visiting the best of the best who is not thirsty for clients there is definitely a feeling of it being a cash grab, and treatment seems to be half assed, and not specialized to your needs so you keep returning

Even looking at the one treatment that actually has done something for me (atlas realignment) I went to an rmt who had also gone and taken the course on it... $300, all inclusive with a follow up appointment too

What could I find similar in calgary? Chiro... $5k for a week of treatments, yeah... no thanks

[Hallowed_point]

Originally posted by A790
Many office workers with back/neck pain would benefit immensely from using a standing desk. Costs less than a chiro, solves a lot of the problem.

Totally. I've more or less stopped sitting at my desk. I've adjusted my monitors and also picked up an ergonomic keyboard/mouse combo with a wrist pad. I was pretty skeptical about it, but these posture medic bands are a god send for any kind of an office jockey. Dude at work gave me one to try out and it's amazing. Pulls your shoulders back into proper alignment.

V9_CayJfDEk

[cherpintow]

The problem with all back healing solutions is that there are no black and white answers. You can't just ask what works, you will have to find out what works for you. Just about every method has worked at some point for someone, otherwise it wouldn't be around still.

To answer your question directly, it's probably not a good idea to do chiro as a preventative measure, your best bet would be to do as others have said and strengthen your core, do proper stretches, get massages and do yoga.

[legendboy]

I go for IMS instead of massage most of the time. I had a chiro really hurt my neck bad one time doing active release. Never have been back probably close to 20 years.

Marda Loop Physio is where i go for ims. works good. my biggest problems lack of core, bad posture, stress and constantly moving heavy stuff by myself

[Buster]

Originally posted by cherpintow
The problem with all back healing solutions is that there are no black and white answers. You can't just ask what works, you will have to find out what works for you. Just about every method has worked at some point for someone, otherwise it wouldn't be around still.

To answer your question directly, it's probably not a good idea to do chiro as a preventative measure, your best bet would be to do as others have said and strengthen your core, do proper stretches, get massages and do yoga.

This makes no sense. Just because people have been doing something for a while doesn't mean it works.

We have an actual scientific method to determine if something works, or if a result is just in someone's imagination.

And chiropractic fails when it comes to actual data looking at results.

I don't understand why people are so keen to jump to anecdotal evidence or "tradition" when we have really good ways of actually determining these things.

[max_boost]

I had back pain on and off for years and this was the fix for me.

- Stand more.
- Lift more weights.

If I didn't do the above, the pain would come back. Coincidence? :dunno:

[mazdavirgin]

My uncle is a rather bit name Chiropractor in Calgary and straight up I would never go or let anyone I know or care about be in his care. He doesn't vaccinate his kids and doesn't believe in science because well it runs counter to what he was taught in school. He's happily fleecing people of tons of money though, drives a lambo and is a member of the glencoe...

Chiropractics is pure straight up unadulterated quackery. Anyone who believes otherwise is a fool. Chiropractors are taught that everything is the result of misalignment in the back. Got a cold? It's your back! Got cancer? It's your back!

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f7/Gray839.png

Everything they are taught in school is based on this concept: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vertebral_subluxation

So yeah if you want to believe in magic and shit like that instead of medicine keep going to the Chiropractors and feeding them money because it doesn't do shit. They will happily continue doing nothing of use and continue getting rich off suckers.

[speedog]

Originally posted by phreezee
My coworker's wife has a fractured vertebrae from a chiropractor. How's that for anecdotal? haha

And I know someone who lost her vision because of a botched job by a rather well known laser eye surgery facility in Calgary - one can find bad things about every kind of profession.

[JfuckinC]

IMS Man, that shit is miracle work.......

[ricosuave]

I found that chiro/accu/massage/physio all have their limitations, that they can only go so far, and I think the body gets 'used' to a certain level of pressure or treatment or whatever.

I found by mixing up a few practitioners here and there in all fields, my body responds the best than just going to one for a long period of time.

[J-hop]

Originally posted by A790
Many office workers with back/neck pain would benefit immensely from using a standing desk. Costs less than a chiro, solves a lot of the problem.

Tried to get one of these at work as I think this is a great idea but apparently I need to prove a legitimate need for one haha

[R-Audi]

Originally posted by A790
But they took a weekend course!

Not sure if you are being overly sarcastic with this or not.. To become a chiro it takes 6 yrs of schooling... (Full undergrad science degree then 2 years at Chiro College.)


As for other things like real acupuncture (Chinese one) it made a huge difference for my tennis elbow. It was my last ditch effort to try and fix it and after 6 treatments it was completely gone after dealing with it for the better part of 2 years. During the period I tried physio, active release and daily stretching.

[Buster]

We basically KNOW at this point that acupuncture does not work. Chinese, western, martian, any of it.

If you think it worked for you, it's either a placebo effect, or the condition resolved itself over time or with other means.

There is a giant mountain of data on this.

[nicknolte]

Originally posted by cherpintow
The problem with all back healing solutions is that there are no black and white answers. You can't just ask what works, you will have to find out what works for you. Just about every method has worked at some point for someone, otherwise it wouldn't be around still.

To answer your question directly, it's probably not a good idea to do chiro as a preventative measure, your best bet would be to do as others have said and strengthen your core, do proper stretches, get massages and do yoga.

Fully agree, especially with the bolded. The regular "maintenance" visits are a scam, but chiropractors are useful as supplements to modern medicine/science.

Anecdotally, I fell into the boards awkwardly playing hockey in my teens that caused some pain in my lower back. 5-6 sessions with a chiropractor over the span of two weeks fixed it. A couple years later had some issues with my left knee. A chiro did that graston thingy in-between my physio sessions, which helped to mitigate the pain

It's been a few years since I've been to a chiropractor, but I'd use one again if modern medicine/science wasn't working.

[Gman.45]

I had back pain on and off for years and this was the fix for me. - Stand more. - Lift more weights.

Strange how this works for many, including me. I had far less back pain and other problems when I was building/power lifting, than when just sitting idle. How can doing deadlifts/etc of 4 or 5 plates = less pain seems very counter-intuitive, but that's exactly how it went for me.

I also bought an adjustable desk for my primary gaming/PC setup, so I can stand 1/2 the time or more.

I do think a chiro can help, but it seems to be highly random in terms of for who and how much. I've had reasonably good results, nothing I'd call incredible, but it has helped. Plus I blew an SI joint so badly a few years ago lifting that I couldn't feel my leg, and thought I was going to be hopalong Cassidy for the remainder of my days. One trip to the chiro and 2 days later the feeling came back 100%, so I can't write chiropractors off to "voodoo" like my GP does.

[J-hop]

Originally posted by Gman.45


Strange how this works for many, including me. I had far less back pain and other problems when I was building/power lifting, than when just sitting idle. How can doing deadlifts/etc of 4 or 5 plates = less pain seems very counter-intuitive, but that's exactly how it went for me.

I also bought an adjustable desk for my primary gaming/PC setup, so I can stand 1/2 the time or more.

I do think a chiro can help, but it seems to be highly random in terms of for who and how much. I've had reasonably good results, nothing I'd call incredible, but it has helped. Plus I blew an SI joint so badly a few years ago lifting that I couldn't feel my leg, and thought I was going to be hopalong Cassidy for the remainder of my days. One trip to the chiro and 2 days later the feeling came back 100%, so I can't write chiropractors off to "voodoo" like my GP does.

Yea lifting helped me quite a bit as well. I lift 2-3 times a week, Muay Thai twice a week, cycle 30kms/day on my commute. Play in a tennis league once a week and have been starting to add running into my routine.

Core strength isn't really an issue and flexibility is way up with doing Muay Thai more regularly this year.

I think I might add a bit of yoga into my routine. I've tried it in the past but I just find it really hard to stay consistent. I know it's good for me but I find it super boring and I don't enjoy it so it ends up getting dropped from my routine.

[A790]

Originally posted by R-Audi


Not sure if you are being overly sarcastic with this or not.. To become a chiro it takes 6 yrs of schooling... (Full undergrad science degree then 2 years at Chiro College.)

LOL I was just repeating a line I heard on House MD.

[Swank]

Originally posted by A790
Many office workers with back/neck pain would benefit immensely from using a standing desk. Costs less than a chiro, solves a lot of the problem. I also agree with this big time, no matter which way I sit in a chair I eventually get a stinging pain in my neck, but standing it never happens. I have degenerated discs in my neck from years of sitting at a desk, I wish I could go back 15 years and stand.

Anytime I wake up with a sore lower back I find barbell squats fix it up the quickest :dunno:

[ercchry]

Originally posted by Buster
We basically KNOW at this point that acupuncture does not work. Chinese, western, martian, any of it.

If you think it worked for you, it's either a placebo effect, or the condition resolved itself over time or with other means.

There is a giant mountain of data on this.

okay, first off im going to say i dont agree with all the quackery... buuuut...

lets play a little game, me stating how i think some of this stuff works, and you posting actual cited material/peer reviewed medical evidence that it is incorrect... cause honestly, i dont think i magically just resolved my issues with time, since after a decade i think my body would of just given up :rofl:

1. spine has nerves/arteries/etc that enter it between vertebra

2. blood flow helps in healing

3. nerves and arteries can be pinched by a misaligned spine

4. increasing blood flow to specific areas can help with recovery of injuries

5. having nerves and arteries pinched off, especially to the brain can cause many issues such as migraines, brain fog, plugged ears, etc, etc

so yeah, many years of physio and chiro with zero results... now focusing on alignment of my neck; atlas realigned, and training muscles to get the curvature back in my neck and i have never felt as strong, or pain reduced since i was 19 years old... western medicine didnt have a solution for me :dunno:

[Seth1968]

If a bone structure is out of place, then something is wrong with the tissue that's supposed to hold it in place. So it seems to me the best course of action would be to stretch the tissue "back into place", and not the bone.

For example, sit without slouching and lidt the back of your neck up as if there were a string on the back of your head that's pulling it up. Hold for 1 minute, release for 10 seconds, then repeat.

The same can be done with the lower spine by lying on your back, grasping your hands between your knees, and pulling your knees to your chest.

I sure the hell wouldn't want someone forcefully pushing on my spine. I'm not into possible paralyzation.

[ercchry]

You mean like this...

R3AD1Otn6PY

[Buster]

This is a classic. Not specifically about chiro. But chiro and homeopathy share the same lack of data, so it fits.

HMGIbOGu8q0

[Seth1968]

Originally posted by ercchry
You mean like this...


Exactly.

Stretch the tissue one way as in my example, and stretch it the other way as in the video you posted.

It also seems to me however, that by using that foam method, it stretches the muscles, but doesn't strengthen them. Perhaps a better way would be to lie in bed on your back with your head off your bed. You would then slowly let your head fall, then raise it. That would stretch and strengthen the muscles.

[ercchry]

Yeah, so again some chiro techniques I see a benefit to, the core concept is sound, how a majority of practitioners go about practicing though... questionable

[Marsh]

I used to be skeptical of chiro care as i had previously gone, and felt like i was just being treated as a repeat customer with no incentive to actually get better. This is definitely true, as 95% of chiropractors now a days are just bullshit and don't really care about helping you feel better.

As of last summer, I found a great chiropractor who is in his eighties, charges $20 bucks a session and actually believes and treats you to get better. I had a nagging shoulder mid back problem for ages, and i saw him just twice and it went away quickly. He also said come back whenever you need it, and i've popped by once or twice over the last 6 months as needed.

So there are good ones out there who can treat you effectively...but its just that you have to sort through the 95% of them who suck.

Edit: He was also great in that he gave me home stretches/exercises to do which have kept me out of his office for the most part.

[mazdavirgin]

Originally posted by ercchry
Yeah, so again some chiro techniques I see a benefit to, the core concept is sound, how a majority of practitioners go about practicing though... questionable

Except you know actual science and clinical trials show it doesn't work at all. Subluxation which is the basis of chiropractics is pure quakery.

https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/chiropractic-vertebral-subluxations-science-vs-pseudoscience/

But you know this is about feels and believing shit work...

[ercchry]

Originally posted by mazdavirgin


Except you know actual science and clinical trials show it doesn't work at all. Subluxation which is the basis of chiropractics is pure quakery.

https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/chiropractic-vertebral-subluxations-science-vs-pseudoscience/

But you know this is about feels and believing shit work...

That link clearly states that orthopaedic subluxation is real... and what I'm talking about is clearly not a cure for fucking cancer... but actual orthopaedic pain, which in western medicine is fixed with surgery... high consequence surgery, which is rarely worth the risk for more minor soft tissue issues

Proper adjustments and working on muscle memory can work towards fixing these issues, be it a good chiro, physio, or rmt they all can help with these issues... can being the keyword... cause not every practitioner is built equal

Having seen them all it's amazing the overlap between the three, different names for some things, but same treatment... like "active release" is trademarked by the chiro's... but my physio did the same shit (treating symptoms, not the cause imho though)

[Buster]

Originally posted by ercchry


That link clearly states that orthopaedic subluxation is real... and what I'm talking about is clearly not a cure for fucking cancer... but actual orthopaedic pain, which in western medicine is fixed with surgery... high consequence surgery, which is rarely worth the risk for more minor soft tissue issues

Proper adjustments and working on muscle memory can work towards fixing these issues, be it a good chiro, physio, or rmt they all can help with these issues... can being the keyword... cause not every practitioner is built equal

Having seen them all it's amazing the overlap between the three, different names for some things, but same treatment... like "active release" is trademarked by the chiro's... but my physio did the same shit (treating symptoms, not the cause imho though)

They are just using the same word, which is about all they have in common.

The subluxation that chiros refer to is a different thing, and pure quakery.

I find it biazarre that people still, in the 21st century, rationalize against actual scientific technique by saying "it works for me!". That's like saying my prayer for sun this weekend worked. Obviously it did. Because I prayed. And then it was sunny. It's also the reason why we have people not vaccinating their kids and a million other anti-science things.

[ercchry]

It's like having a conversation with suntan...

[A790]

Originally posted by Buster
I find it biazarre that people still, in the 21st century, rationalize against actual scientific technique by saying "it works for me!".
Curious: do you live with chronic pain?

[Buster]

I'm not sure why it's a particularly controversial perspective.

We have very simple, yet very powerful tools to determine if an intervention of any kind is actually working, or not. Relaying this doesn't make me a grump or a meanie or anything. In this case, we have applied these tools to chiropractic interventions. A lot. Ad nauseam. Somehow people think they are different I guess? Or they think that the data doesn't apply to them? Or that somehow the data suggest (it doesn't) that there are weird exceptions - and they just happen to be one?.

[A790]

That's an interesting non-answer. So, do you live with chronic pain?

[Buster]

Originally posted by A790
That's an interesting non-answer. So, do you live with chronic pain?

I assumed your question is rhetorical because we both (should) know why it is irrelevant in terms of determining whether an intervention works or not.

[ercchry]

Your logic is still flawed, your window into what chiros do is very narrow, you keep referring to the same thing over and over again... and have completely ignored all these points

It's like you're arguing that you can only make phone calls on a cell phone cause your Motorola from 1998 only made phone calls, just like any profession there is further study and training that happens over time and some techniques, regardless of the belief behind them can and do have actual effects on certain issues


Originally posted by ercchry


okay, first off im going to say i dont agree with all the quackery... buuuut...

lets play a little game, me stating how i think some of this stuff works, and you posting actual cited material/peer reviewed medical evidence that it is incorrect... cause honestly, i dont think i magically just resolved my issues with time, since after a decade i think my body would of just given up :rofl:

1. spine has nerves/arteries/etc that enter it between vertebra

2. blood flow helps in healing

3. nerves and arteries can be pinched by a misaligned spine

4. increasing blood flow to specific areas can help with recovery of injuries

5. having nerves and arteries pinched off, especially to the brain can cause many issues such as migraines, brain fog, plugged ears, etc, etc

so yeah, many years of physio and chiro with zero results... now focusing on alignment of my neck; atlas realigned, and training muscles to get the curvature back in my neck and i have never felt as strong, or pain reduced since i was 19 years old... western medicine didnt have a solution for me :dunno:

[Buster]

Originally posted by ercchry
Your logic is still flawed, your window into what chiros do is very narrow, you keep referring to the same thing over and over again... and have completely ignored all these points

It's like you're arguing that you can only make phone calls on a cell phone cause your Motorola from 1998 only made phone calls, just like any profession there is further study and training that happens over time and some techniques, regardless of the belief behind them can and do have actual effects on certain issues



Actually I said in the fourth post of the thread that chiropractic practices are bunk and that the things that chiros do that actually work are just the equivalent to massage therapy. But if a chiropactor got licensed to give vaccinations, then I wouldn't say that chiropractic interventions work because chiropractors also give vaccinations and vaccinations obviously work.

Your points about how chiropractic methods might work is a hypothesis. One that formed the basis of many experiments, and failed to show results. But science is cool about all this stuff. People can try to construct a different method for an experiment, or even try to replicate the experiment to see if they get different results. They haven't gotten different results.

[blubs]

While I do agree that it for many chiropractors with the whole " 5 minutes 5 cracks and your out" is way overused. It can be extremely helpful for dealing with major issues caused by injuries.

When I was younger and a gymnast training 30+ hours a week... One bad spill and sometimes that was the only thing that could offer some relief. That being said when you did have to resort to this it was always agreed that more strength and flexibility training was needed before continuing.

Or say... Like this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87aiIZnhtNg

After seeing changes like that you can't all say it was just hokum.

[CLiVE]

Originally posted by RickDaTuner
From what I understand general body pain from joints tend to be a result of of poorly exercised muscles which leads to muscle strain of the lesser used muscle in the area.
Chiropractors use stretches and other movements to release the strain on the affected muscles, but it does nothing to eliminate the problem, as its just temporary relief.

i've been reading that people have been having better and longer lasting success with massage rollers, as they stretch, re-align and work the affected muscles.

my $0.02

...I haven't read the rest of the thread. Stopped after this post. Completely agree based on my experience.

I used to have chronic back pain and went to a chiropractor 2 - 3x per week.

My pain was mostly the result of muscle and flexibility imbalance in my back after having shoulder surgery on one side. Chiro was always a quick fix and the pain returned. I tried everything. Chiro, massage, accupunture, cupping, prolotherapy injections, etc.

Started getting more active slowly - then WAY more active with Triathlon training. Now ~6 years later I have no chronic pain, way better muscle balance and a much greater quality of life.

I use foam rollers a lot, I'm careful about warming up - cooling down - and stretching. Generally get a massage a week after a race, but find I can target sore sports with rollers, accupressure balls etc. better on my own.

Just my experience, not saying this approach will work for everyone, as my chronic pain was likely from muscle and flexibility imbalances in the first place.

[jdmXSI]

It seems like most people here, exercise and stretching works for me. Alongside with IMS, that shit is fantastic!

After hearing people stroking out from chiropractors, i would never go back personally.

[rx7boi]

Chiros and physios are a business.

Don't go to one until you actually have a diagnosed condition and know what the cause and recommended treatment is.

They're not actual doctors and will play the "best guess" game while they charge you $50 a pop. If they don't at the very least ask for some corresponding medical documents relating to your condition, there's your first indicator.

[R-Audi]

Originally posted by rx7boi
Chiros and physios are a business.

They're not actual doctors and will play the "best guess" game while they charge you $50 a pop. If they don't at the very least ask for some corresponding medical documents relating to your condition, there's your first indicator.

Ive been sent to MRI's and XRays on Chiropractic consultation....they were actually the ones who found my compression fractures..not the Doctors who I saw previously. Like anything there are good and bad.

[A790]

Originally posted by Buster


I assumed your question is rhetorical because we both (should) know why it is irrelevant in terms of determining whether an intervention works or not.
I think you're missing the point, so why don't you come down from your pedestal and let's have a conversation about pain and pain management.

I asked (repeatedly) if you live with chronic pain for reason.

You're wondering why people believe in the "hocus pocus, fairy tale" type of stuff, right? I'm assuming so, since your last several points have more or less been "how can people believe this bullshit". I get it.

Chronic pain. That's why. It changes you in a way that you can't really understand until it happens to you. Then, suddenly, things that you objectively know and understand shouldn't work become things you consider, and try, on the off chance that they do.

When you're in pain you'll do just about anything to enjoy some kind of reprieve from it, however temporary.

That's why people pursue, and promote, treatments and methodologies that the rest of us can't figure out. It's why people put causation on to their chiro, or physio, or whatever. They did a thing, they felt a reprieve from their pain, and now they have created an emotional attachment to the thing they feel helps them.

Maybe you live with chronic pain. If so, part of the above surely resonates with you. Everyone with a major injury, or a condition that causes consistent pain, will look outside of their comfort zone at least once. If you don't live with pain, maybe the realization that desperate people looking for answers will place extreme value (and faith) in what they feel helps them will help you better understand them/their actions.

Or maybe it won't. Who knows.