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armyofone
06-15-2017, 10:54 AM
Just had a question and I was wondering if anyone could chime in here.
Well recently my company was purchased out and I just learned my new position would be a demotion to a more junior level. I have quite a few years experience doing my position and my severance package would be pretty decent. Does anyone have experience in a situation like this where they lower your position to just ask to be laid off and packaged out? Would this be grounds for a constructive dismissal? I just wanted some general opinions before I consult legal counsel.

Disoblige
06-15-2017, 11:00 AM
You mentioned lowering your position. But does that mean lowered pay as well?

armyofone
06-15-2017, 11:06 AM
You mentioned lowering your position. But does that mean lowered pay as well?


Base Salary is the same, but completely removing bonus and stock options. So basically from where I am now, it would be somewhere around a 15-20K/year drop if I factor those in.

FraserB
06-15-2017, 11:08 AM
What you are describing is constructive dismissal.

Unless you agreed to the changes.

armyofone
06-15-2017, 11:13 AM
What you are describing is constructive dismissal.

Unless you agreed to the changes.

This is what I was figuring as well, but my colleagues are saying as long as the new company offers you a REASONABLE position that it wont be grounds for constructive dismissal. I'm a little torn.

FraserB
06-15-2017, 11:15 AM
You need to speak to an employment lawyer. Advice from your coworkers and the internet is worth exactly what you are paying for it.

armyofone
06-15-2017, 11:16 AM
You need to speak to an employment lawyer. Advice from your coworkers and the internet is worth exactly what you are paying for it.

That will be my next step, I was more so just curious if anyone has had any success at ever asking your company basically "Hey, this isn't going to work, can I have my severance and walk?"

lasimmon
06-15-2017, 11:26 AM
Removing bonus/options won't necessarily amount to constructive dismissal. Courts generally side with the company when altering variable compensation.

Also I would be surprised if they paid you out when they don't need to.

Mitsu3000gt
06-15-2017, 11:41 AM
If you are in O&G, keep in mind there are hundreds of unemployed people willing to do your job for less money - it may not be worth entering the unemployment pool just yet, but obviously consult your lawyer.

JDMMAN
06-15-2017, 02:16 PM
armyofone - definitely consult the employment lawyer. let me know if you need a referral to one. Constructive dismissal has a much stronger case when your responsibilities, # of direct reports, reporting lines etc. all change. You can look at your employment contract and existing HR policies at your company, there maybe a clause in the event of a take-over what would happen. Generally speaking, in my experience with takeovers/mergers, that the executive board tries their best to maintain parity or continuance of compensation for existing staff; that said, not everyone does it the same way. There maybe clauses in your HR policy which has the stipulation that the variable component is subject for review or change at anytime without notice (very common).

armyofone
06-15-2017, 03:19 PM
Removing bonus/options won't necessarily amount to constructive dismissal. Courts generally side with the company when altering variable compensation.

Also I would be surprised if they paid you out when they don't need to.

This was sort of what I was wondering as well. The variable compensation isnt guaranteed, but now I'm going from a position where I have at least "a shot at it", to a new position where that option is removed completely.


So has no one had the experience of walking in and basically asking "This isn't going to work, can I have my package and walk?", I get that the company wont be happy about it but if the alternative is having a disgruntled employee sticking around on your payroll that also doesnt seem like a great position for them either.

armyofone
06-15-2017, 03:23 PM
If you are in O&G, keep in mind there are hundreds of unemployed people willing to do your job for less money - it may not be worth entering the unemployment pool just yet, but obviously consult your lawyer.

This is a bs argument, I have enough savings to last me years if need be. I wont let a bad economy be the reason to be bullied and pushed around at work. If your boss tomorrow said, "Look were rolling back your salary 20% starting tomorrow, theres people out there willing to do the work for less", you wont put up at least an argument about it?

colsankey
06-15-2017, 03:27 PM
This was sort of what I was wondering as well. The variable compensation isnt guaranteed, but now I'm going from a position where I have at least "a shot at it", to a new position where that option is removed completely.


So has no one had the experience of walking in and basically asking "This isn't going to work, can I have my package and walk?", I get that the company wont be happy about it but if the alternative is having a disgruntled employee sticking around on your payroll that also doesnt seem like a great position for them either.

Most people would call that giving 2 weeks notice..

Mitsu3000gt
06-15-2017, 03:41 PM
This is a bs argument, I have enough savings to last me years if need be. I wont let a bad economy be the reason to be bullied and pushed around at work. If your boss tomorrow said, "Look were rolling back your salary 20% starting tomorrow, theres people out there willing to do the work for less", you wont put up at least an argument about it?

Obviously I would resist tooth & nail, but the final decision won't be mine. Why wouldn't you keep the job until you found another one so you don't ever stop getting paid? I would not just quit out of principle, drain my savings, and maybe or maybe not get a higher paying new job in a reasonable time frame. Maybe you get a job in a week, maybe you are living off your savings for 2-3 years waiting for that perfect job. If you have a lot of savings you don't mind burning, that's totally up to you. Personally I wouldn't do that.

Go4Long
06-15-2017, 04:13 PM
That will be my next step, I was more so just curious if anyone has had any success at ever asking your company basically "Hey, this isn't going to work, can I have my severance and walk?"

NO company would package you out because you want it. If you walked in to my office and said that I would hand you a resignation form and tell you that your options were to sign it and go home, or sit down and do your job.

As for the rest of your question, seriously, stop asking the internet. My personal opinion of it is that a reduction in bonus levels would not constitute constructive dismissal, as most contracts would be written that you have the POSSIBILITY of receiving a bonus...but that is definitely a question that you need to ask someone with experience in labour law. If they are making an effort to offer reasonable accomodation it might be a good option to just not rock the boat and look for other options in the mean time.

bjstare
06-15-2017, 06:37 PM
This is a bs argument, I have enough savings to last me years if need be. I wont let a bad economy be the reason to be bullied and pushed around at work. If your boss tomorrow said, "Look were rolling back your salary 20% starting tomorrow, theres people out there willing to do the work for less", you wont put up at least an argument about it?

lol this isn't a BS argument at all. It's not bullying either, it's business. Thousands of people all over the world are replaced daily with a cheaper alternative that can do the same job. I mean sure, you can take a stand and quit out of principle if you're mad about it, but you're the only one that loses in that scenario.

Like all the others have said, just go see a lawyer. They will tell you what kind of a shot you have.

My 2c: You don't like getting a pay and responsibility cut? Find a new job while you're still employed, then make your exit.

zhao
06-15-2017, 08:24 PM
This is a bs argument, I have enough savings to last me years if need be. I wont let a bad economy be the reason to be bullied and pushed around at work. If your boss tomorrow said, "Look were rolling back your salary 20% starting tomorrow, theres people out there willing to do the work for less", you wont put up at least an argument about it?

Not a chance. That happened to me a year and a half ago, and the other guy on my level was starting to grumble and fight it and I quickly said do what you need to do. They revised our profit sharing and I took a salary cut on top of that. The end result is they didn't terminate our support staff and double our workload. I'll take a 20% pay cut vs doing all the bullshit mindless work on top of my own job any day.

Why didn't I fight it? Because i'm not entitled and quickly did the math and realized it would be a huge wildcard on trying to get hired somewhere else for what I was making; I might take an even bigger pay cut with a shittier company trying to go that route, plus the downtime between jobs. It just wasn't realistic in this economy, and their revised package while probably worked out to about a 20% cut or more, still wasn't that bad. As far as i'm concerned I'm still paid ok.

My experience from others is if a severance is an option they would have made the offer available to some people too. My aunt requested a severance about 15 years ago when her job and position was safe, because other people were getting let go (she saved someone else from getting cut) and she wanted to start her own consulting firm anyway. In her case they were happy to pay her out instead of someone more junior.

But if you want to be the first to attempt it who knows what will happen with your current employer. As others have said you really need to talk to a lawyer if you care about answering your question. THe law society of alberta can refer you to an employment lawyer that will give you a 30 minute free consultation to see where things stand.

Inzane
06-18-2017, 10:06 AM
That will be my next step, I was more so just curious if anyone has had any success at ever asking your company basically "Hey, this isn't going to work, can I have my severance and walk?"

As someone who has gone through a layoff and a severance lawsuit, let me give you one important piece of advice. Be very careful what you say to your employer.

Asking for severance could be taken as ok you want to quit then = self termination. That would leave you with a very different outcome than if it's your employer who initiates.