94 Octane Disappearing From Some Mohawk and Husky Stations?

[CivicDXR]

I don't use it myself, but it seems that 94 octane seems to be disappearing from a lot of Mohawk/Husky gas pumps. I saw an instagram post a few weeks ago that showed 91 stickers on top of what used to be 94 at one of the pumps, and then my brother this morning went to fill up at the East Lake Husky, and said he saw the same thing.

https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=1w9h884c-4rCZnrlpW8eG09eH2IQ&hl=en_US&ll=51.020995978726496%2C-114.08584199999996&z=11

Looks like only a handful left carry 94, anyone know if they are just phasing it out?

[J-hop]

interesting. That must mean they are moving away from the heavy ethanol blend garbage. That would be nice

[ercchry]

I hope not, tons of cars running around on tunes specifically for it... including me

[HiTempguy1]

I hope so, only means good things for business!

http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/28/282b95411927f12e9cc5db9c36473cc6bc946d7fb81039f8a1441d05b6f00fc5.jpg

Edit-
I'm saying this in jest of course. It would suck to remove that as an option for people, especially if tuned for it... but it probably is a positive for me ;)

[revelations]

There was a discussion here some time ago regarding the need for ultra high octane fuels at our altitude/air density. Because of this, we can run something like -2 points here (I think Rage2 posted about this, will try to dig up)

[killramos]

I have never let the stuff touch my cars so good riddance, screw ethanol.

[heavyD]

The one on 32nd Avenue N.E. has replaced 94 with 91 stickers as well. It's a real shame for people that drive a Subaru with an EJ257 as its by far the best gasoline available in Alberta for those engines seeing how prone they are to knock. Regardless of the ethanol blend it's still a far superior gasoline to say Petro Can 94 just ask Sonny at Airboy tuning what the difference is in the dyno. I typically alternate between Husky 94 and Shell 91 depending on convenience but I will be filling up exclusively with Shell 91 now.

[J-hop]

The one on 32nd Avenue N.E. has replaced 94 with 91 stickers as well. It's a real shame for people that drive a Subaru with an EJ257 as its by far the best gasoline available in Alberta for those engines seeing how prone they are to knock. Regardless of the ethanol blend it's still a far superior gasoline to say Petro Can 94 just ask Sonny at Airboy tuning what the difference is in the dyno. I typically alternate between Husky 94 and Shell 91 depending on convenience but I will be filling up exclusively with Shell 91 now.


Isnt it prone to knock because guys are running those turbos WAY out of their efficiency range?

I mean I have a lot of respect for tuners offering cheap solutions for power with the stock turbo. But running the vf43 near 20psi is just making it into an oversized hairdryer, thus the need to run higher octane to avoid detonation. In other words a bandaid fix for an improper setup.

[never]

Isnt it prone to knock because guys are running those turbos WAY out of their efficiency range?

I mean I have a lot of respect for tuners offering cheap solutions for power with the stock turbo. But running the vf43 near 20psi is just making it into an oversized hairdryer, thus the need to run higher octane to avoid detonation. In other words a bandaid fix for an improper setup.

You have it backwards, you run better fuel so you can be more aggressive with the tune. And ethanol is way better for making power, and dissipating heat. So it's really good with turbos or blown setups.

[J-hop]

You have it backwards, you run better fuel so you can be more aggressive with the tune. And ethanol is way better for making power, and dissipating heat. So it's really good with turbos or blown setups.

I get that. But there is a difference between an aggressive tune and just a bad setup and slapping on a bandaid fix. If you want near 20psi on an ej257 a vf43 is too small. You're going to drastically increase charge temperatures requiring higher octane. That doesn't mean the ej257 is prone to knocking.

[RickDaTuner]

The 94 ethanol blend discussion is a can of worms waiting to be unleash.

Ehenol when mixed is super hard to tune for.
The guaranteed minimum octane rating at the pumps is 94, but no one tank is ever the same.
We're loosing 94 pumps here in Calgary because there is no dedicated ethanol pipeline to Calgary, and trucking it down from Edmonton is too expensive.

I say good riddance to it, there are only a few car manufacturers who offer support for correct ethonal blend fuel management, and even then it causes loads of problems as the Engine ECU has re calculate alcohol fuel percentage every time you fill up more than 20L

Subaru guys ran it to compensate for bad tunes, I used to run it in my STi, but after killing 4-5 primary o2 sensors I just stuck with shell 91.

I believe ethanol is a dying fuel, it's un sustainable here in North America.

[Twin_Cam_Turbo]

Fuck me I will probably have to get my Civic retuned now. I guess I can get rid of my Husky rewards points card now with no 94 to buy.

[Maxx Mazda]

For the price per litre, I just run 100LL avgas instead of 94 as that's what the car was tuned for. Those of you without cats like me may wish to do the same.

[jonsey737]

For the price per litre, I just run 100LL avgas instead of 94 as that's what the car was tuned for. Those of you without cats like me may wish to do the same.

That sounds like a pain in the ass. Do you buy barrels of somewhere or pull up to an airport and fill your own storage tanks? What's it going for these days, about $1.41/L?

[Redlined_8000]

Dam so this is a thing hey? Any official articles?

[MR2-3SGTE]

The 94 ethanol blend discussion is a can of worms waiting to be unleash.

Ehenol when mixed is super hard to tune for.
The guaranteed minimum octane rating at the pumps is 94, but no one tank is ever the same.
We're loosing 94 pumps here in Calgary because there is no dedicated ethanol pipeline to Calgary, and trucking it down from Edmonton is too expensive.

I say good riddance to it, there are only a few car manufacturers who offer support for correct ethonal blend fuel management, and even then it causes loads of problems as the Engine ECU has re calculate alcohol fuel percentage every time you fill up more than 20L

Subaru guys ran it to compensate for bad tunes, I used to run it in my STi, but after killing 4-5 primary o2 sensors I just stuck with shell 91.

I believe ethanol is a dying fuel, it's un sustainable here in North America.

I used to live in Florida where 10% ethanol is in every gas station by law. Never heard of a tuner having issues with it, and I've had multiple cars dyno tuned multiple times over there. There's also an option for e85 (85% ethanol) at certain gas stations which provides a significant boost in power due to the ability to advance timing, and it also burns a lot cooler. The downside is that the gas mileage sucks because it burns a lot more fuel to get the same amount of energy, in joules. I had to run 1200cc fuel injectors, when 800cc would've been fine with regular 93 octane (there is no 94 in Florida). It also attracts moisture when left sitting for too long.
Part of the reason they blend 10% by law is to support the farmers. Theres also a lot less pollution.

[Tik-Tok]

There was a discussion here some time ago regarding the need for ultra high octane fuels at our altitude/air density. Because of this, we can run something like -2 points here (I think Rage2 posted about this, will try to dig up)

That's only for naturally aspirated cars. Turbo's still need the higher octane, or anything with an aftermarket tune that's specifically runs 94 octane.

[heavyD]

Isnt it prone to knock because guys are running those turbos WAY out of their efficiency range?

I mean I have a lot of respect for tuners offering cheap solutions for power with the stock turbo. But running the vf43 near 20psi is just making it into an oversized hairdryer, thus the need to run higher octane to avoid detonation. In other words a bandaid fix for an improper setup.

The EJ257 is an oversquare engine which makes it inherently knock prone. Add in a shoddy stock tune that was calibrated to make a 20 year old engine design compliant with current EPA regulations and you have an engine that even stock benefits greatly from the highest octane fuel available.

Also it has to be noted that Canadian gasoline is simply not as good as American gasoline in general. Cobb recommends Canadians use their California ACN 91 maps on Canadian cars because of this. In Vancouver sone of the GTR community cross the border as much as possible to fill up as BC Chevron 94 is worse than the Chevron 91 south of the border.

[rage2]

Husky 94 was never a great fuel for stock vehicles, or tuned vehicles with generic maps. It was great for forced induction vehicles with tunes specific for Husky 94.

This is the case because the large amount of ethanol reduces the fuel's energy density, but the higher octane value can be taken advantage of with aggressive custom tunes which overcomes that deficit and results in higher overall power. Some info on energy density here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoline_gallon_equivalent

The bigger problem with vehicles tuned for Husky 94 is that it runs kind of crappy on anything but Husky 94 because the air fuel ratio is different enough compared to non ethanol fuels. Because Husky 94 isn't readily available elsewhere, your car really becomes terrible for any trips outside of the province unless you can switch to alternate maps. I believe newer standalones can compensate for this so it's better these days, but not entirely sure.

That's what I remember since I stopped tuning years ago. It's too bad Toma isn't here anymore, he would have a lot to add to this discussion, and probably more updated info since I stopped tuning.

[g-m]

When the charge mixture is pulled into the cylinder it also cools the charge more because it has a higher latent heat of vaporization. Therefore it tunes even at a higher octane than the 94 it's stated as. Ethanol is a PHENOMENAL fuel for tuning, the more the better.

This is really shitty if true. I'd have to get both my cars retuned

[never]

Husky 94 was never a great fuel for stock vehicles, or tuned vehicles with generic maps. It was great for forced induction vehicles with tunes specific for Husky 94.

This is the case because the large amount of ethanol reduces the fuel's energy density, but the higher octane value can be taken advantage of with aggressive custom tunes which overcomes that deficit and results in higher overall power. Some info on energy density here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoline_gallon_equivalent

The bigger problem with vehicles tuned for Husky 94 is that it runs kind of crappy on anything but Husky 94 because the air fuel ratio is different enough compared to non ethanol fuels. Because Husky 94 isn't readily available elsewhere, your car really becomes terrible for any trips outside of the province unless you can switch to alternate maps. I believe newer standalones can compensate for this so it's better these days, but not entirely sure.

That's what I remember since I stopped tuning years ago. It's too bad Toma isn't here anymore, he would have a lot to add to this discussion, and probably more updated info since I stopped tuning.

Flexfuel sensors FTW!

[J-hop]

Husky 94 was never a great fuel for stock vehicles, or tuned vehicles with generic maps. It was great for forced induction vehicles with tunes specific for Husky 94.

This is the case because the large amount of ethanol reduces the fuel's energy density, but the higher octane value can be taken advantage of with aggressive custom tunes which overcomes that deficit and results in higher overall power. Some info on energy density here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoline_gallon_equivalent

The bigger problem with vehicles tuned for Husky 94 is that it runs kind of crappy on anything but Husky 94 because the air fuel ratio is different enough compared to non ethanol fuels. Because Husky 94 isn't readily available elsewhere, your car really becomes terrible for any trips outside of the province unless you can switch to alternate maps. I believe newer standalones can compensate for this so it's better these days, but not entirely sure.

That's what I remember since I stopped tuning years ago. It's too bad Toma isn't here anymore, he would have a lot to add to this discussion, and probably more updated info since I stopped tuning.


Ethanol is an oxygenated fuel so your target AFRs are going to be higher than with a non-oxygenated fuel. Running on a non-blended fuel is a bad idea as your going to running less fuel than you tune thinks if it's compensating at all with the o2.

[bart]

why is it zzzz german ecu's have no problem? vw/audi's have no problem compensating for octane or elevation, tune or not. i had apr 93 tune, used husky 94 all the time everything was fine, then i went up to 96-97 in germany, every 40 minutes i had to fill up again for 100 euros 220km later :) was like rocket fuel haha

[ercchry]

Well, finally filled up at the woodbine location (not listed on that map... which was created in 08 btw) and they still have 94 :dunno:

79306

[V6-BoI]

Husky 94 was never a great fuel for stock vehicles, or tuned vehicles with generic maps. It was great for forced induction vehicles with tunes specific for Husky 94.

This is the case because the large amount of ethanol reduces the fuel's energy density, but the higher octane value can be taken advantage of with aggressive custom tunes which overcomes that deficit and results in higher overall power. Some info on energy density here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoline_gallon_equivalent

The bigger problem with vehicles tuned for Husky 94 is that it runs kind of crappy on anything but Husky 94 because the air fuel ratio is different enough compared to non ethanol fuels. Because Husky 94 isn't readily available elsewhere, your car really becomes terrible for any trips outside of the province unless you can switch to alternate maps. I believe newer standalones can compensate for this so it's better these days, but not entirely sure.

That's what I remember since I stopped tuning years ago. It's too bad Toma isn't here anymore, he would have a lot to add to this discussion, and probably more updated info since I stopped tuning.

I have my car tuned for 94, but have been running Shell 91 for the last couple of years. Seems to run about the same as Husky 94 octane. I logged my car, and there's no knock at higher RPM/boost. With that said, I tried running Super Store's 91 gas and my car ran like crap.

It is too bad that Husky's 94 octane is disappearing. I remembered about 3 to 4 years ago, the Husky in Hawkwood removed their 94 octane gas and replaced it with 91. I just thought they did it cuz it was a really old gas station.

[Maxt]

http://www.chevronwithtechron.ca/products/documents/69083_MotorGas_Tech_Review.pdf

Everything you wanted to know about fuel , but were afraid to ask.....

[LUV2REV]

I have my car tuned for 94, but have been running Shell 91 for the last couple of years. Seems to run about the same as Husky 94 octane. I logged my car, and there's no knock at higher RPM/boost. With that said, I tried running Super Store's 91 gas and my car ran like crap.

It is too bad that Husky's 94 octane is disappearing. I remembered about 3 to 4 years ago, the Husky in Hawkwood removed their 94 octane gas and replaced it with 91. I just thought they did it cuz it was a really old gas station.

The Hawkwood Husky still has 94, I get it there regularly.

[03ozwhip]

well shit the strathmore location is 94 no more. no point going there now.

[benyl]

Ethanol is an oxygenated fuel so your target AFRs are going to be higher than with a non-oxygenated fuel. Running on a non-blended fuel is a bad idea as your going to running less fuel than you tune thinks if it's compensating at all with the o2.

Here is a post I made on this topic in 2005. The words aren't mine.


From the Nabisco forums http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=694829:

After long discussions with Pete (TXS Aus) and Nathan (Turboxs) over the last 2 months. My high EGT's are fixed.

2 emails out of many from Pete the design/engineer of UTEC and Tuner WB.


Hi,

Have you also taken into account that as a 10% ethanol blend the ideal AFR should be 14.2?

Ethanol stoichiometric is 9 to 1 and Gasoline is 14.7 to 1. When mixing ethanol at 10% the A/F's change .57 downward. Pete's email explaining it further


Hi Mark,

Now things need to be clarified here and it can get quite confusing so bear with me here.

To calculate the AFR for 10% ethanol by 0.1 kg of ethanol needs 0.9 kgs of airplus 0.9 of petrol which needs 0.9 x 14.7 = 13.23 of air. Thus 1 kg of 10% ethanol blend requires 14.13 kgs of air. Now let's assume that the ECU applies no corrections or fuel trims. At idle the ECU will inject 1 kg of fuel for every 14.7 kgs of air measured by the MAF, however our 10% blend of ethanol only requires 14.13 kgs of air. This means that there will be an excess of 0.57 kgs of air.

This should mean that you will need to richen up your maps by a percentage that increases the open loop fuel AFR by about 0.57 of an AFR. Note that this enrichment should be applied across the map including the closed loop region.

To retune for a 10% ethanol blend, ideally we should tune using lambda as lambda = 1 is stoich for all fuels. Now remember the Tuner actually measures lambda but converts the number to an AFR based on the fuel that is used. However to make things easier (?) we will keep the petrol stoich ratio and tune assuming that 14.7 is stoich. (Technically this should be reset to 14.13 but this only adds more confusion we feel.)

At idle and under closed loop control the ECU will compensate. Thus assuming that the fuel trims are not maxed out, then the ECU will tune the car for lambda = 1. This will read 14.7 on the Tuner. You should find that the fuels trims are making the ECU add more fuel and so some fuel should be added by the UTEC in the closed loop region to help bring the fuel trims to zero.

At an open loop fuelling point the AFR should read 0.57 higher. For example at 10.0 it should read 10.57. Thus additional fuel should be added by the UTEC to bring the target AFRs back into line. This should also reduce your EGTs.

By using the petrol AFR (14.7:1) this should mean that you can tune using your target numbers as before.

Does this make sense?

regards
Peter Chan
Electronics Engineer
TXS Pty Ltd
Phone : (+61) (2) 99870127
Fax : (+61) (2) 99870129
Email : [email protected]

Now if you guys are following this, the 02 sensor as per Pete's email above it SHOULD read .57 lower at 14.2 for stoichiometric . The second part the 02 sensor should read .57 leaner. Confused? I was.

I take out the .57 reading from what is considered normal STI 93 octane gasoline A/F's of 11-11.4 to 1. I was able to get my EGT's down somewhat to 1620f having A/F's 10.6-10.9 to 1. Ya with me!

Now comes something extra.
As you can see I'm running an AVO 450. It is running out of air above 6k and as such I'm able to run 23 degrees advance above 6K(Nathan helped looking at my logs). I was afraid to go this high with timing(high cylinder pressure) as most people at sea level run 18 degrees with this size turbo. (I had 21 degrees before bringing down the A/F's .57.) I now have EGT's at the top of 5th of 1580f. Gears 1 to 4 EGT's are 1530f max. As for the top of 6th come on summer.


IMHO Tuning with Husky 94 requires you remove .57 from the normal accepted A/F's you see on these forums. I lost NO power and infact increased power by adding another 2 degrees of timing above 6k and now get a consistent 4.7 volts on the MAF from 5800rpm to 7000rpm.

I have also had discussions with Rob the owner of Tunerworks who I've also assisted in a few UTEC setups including Green turbo'd STI's and he has had the same issues with his Talon.

Conclusion

Both Pete and Nathan were outstanding in their help. I can't thank them enough. I learnt alot of UTEC tricks and secret keys

Husky 94 is pretty good at controlling knock if you take into account the .57 richer A/F's required.

I will be going to PDX with 75 litres of Husky 94 octane and see what happens on the Dyno with Jarrad tuning in late May. Fuel is getting trucked to Montana where I'll pick it up and continue to PDX.

Since I'm using 2 EGT probes with DTEC (one on each side) I can confirm drivers side pistons #2 and #4 on both the STI and WRX run between 30f and 50f hotter. I had 2 probes on my Stage 4 WRX also.

All in all I'm happy

[r3ccOs]

Here is a post I made on this topic in 2005. The words aren't mine.

any Husky with a cardlock will no longer carry 94... this is because of the merger with imperial oil to improve the strategic supply chain across easter and western canada.

Even 94 was a product, from what I reckon... doesn't yeild the competitive advantage or enough of a differentiator to draw the revenues to spend the money to mix additional ethanol. To let you guys know Husky does have a ethonal plant in both Lloyd and in Minnedosa.