Hand over hand versus shuffle steering

[speedog]

So I've stumbled on to information lately that would suggest that some driver training schools have dropped the hand over hand steering method in favour of the shuffle method and the reasoning is that there is less risk of an airbag injury to one's arms/wrists if using the shuffle method versus the hand over hand method which places one's arms/wrists in a position between the steering wheel airbag and one's chest.

I'm still a hand over hand guy - curious as to other people's thoughts on this and what method they use.

[Sugarphreak]

...

[Sky]

I do shuffle, hand over hand and single hand palm :bigpimp: mostly shuffle though

[D'z Nutz]

I actually had to think about this cause it's one of those things I've been doing so long it just comes naturally, but it depends on the situation. Sometimes I just apply pressure on my palm and do a one handed steering wheel turn, other times I'll flip my hand around so that it's in the inside of the steering wheel and I'll pull it around, and in situations where none of those are ideal I'll do hand over hand.

Never even thought of the shuffle method before.

[rage2]

Never actually thought about it, but looked at one of my in car vids at an autox, and damn what a mess. :rofl:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=paWjW_a6A-k

Quick turn-in movements, hand over hand. Slow movements, shuffle. Quick unwind, I let go and the wheel do the work, gripping it when I want steering to stop. I believe the last one is a huge no-no, but I seem to have a good sense of wheel position when doing it, probably from my drifting days where it's the only way to steer from one end to the other quickly.

[D'z Nutz]

Oh right, I do the release and grab too. Forgot about that.

[rage2]

That second similar thread is interesting...

[LilDrunkenSmurf]

Same here, I do both. I'll shuffle, or hand over hand, depending on the situation (or single hand all the way around), with the release and grab to straighten out.

This is both day to day, and AutoX situations.

[Tik-Tok]

I do the palm turn, i suppose in the case of airbag deployment, it's better than hand over hand because only one arm is across the airbag, but worse than the hand shuffle.

[botox]

I've heard about this rule before but it hasn't changed my driving style. I learned with stick and have been driving with it for a good 20 years so I have bad habits with mainly a one arm driving technique. Mostly palm with the release and grab coming out of turns with hand touching wheel at all times to control speed of turn and occasionally a mix of shuffle/hand over hand for more aggressive driving. I would say I'm about a 95% one arm driver cause I'm a pretty laid back driver.

[J-hop]

Seems to me its not really going to save anyone's life switching to shuffle. If you think about it if you are in a situation where you are using hand over hand or shuffle (turning at an intersection, very sharp turn in the road) chances are you aren't going to be getting hit head on. It's most likely going to be a side impact in which case your steering wheel airbag probably isn't going to deploy.

[jwslam]

I use the palm method... I'm a one hander.

On another note, I thought we all drive with knobs
http://www.mobilitysupercenter.com/charleston/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/Mercedes-Steering-Wheel-Knob.jpg

[Shlade]

^ That's not yours is it?

Must be a bus driver haha

[jacky4566]

You guys drive with two hands? How do I hold my cell phone?

[jwslam]

^ That's not yours is it?

Must be a bus driver haha
No. :(
I drive an actual Accord, not the Beyond standard AccordMG

[ExtraSlow]

I too drive with one hand. That's how I give hand jobs to the hitchhikers I pick up.

[A2VR6]

Hmm watching my in-car vids it's shuffle steering for me. I've seen a lot of other people do the release and grab too, seems pretty nuts but it seems to work haha.

[Tik-Tok]

I too drive with one hand. That's how I give hand jobs to the hitchhikers I pick up.

I THOUGHT I recognized you when we met up last month!

[rage2]

Hmm watching my in-car vids it's shuffle steering for me. I've seen a lot of other people do the release and grab too, seems pretty nuts but it seems to work haha.
Should define it a little better than release and grab, it's more like throttling the unwind rate of the steering wheel by using hands to brake it depending on how fast I want it to unwind. If I need quicker unwind it's a bit of shuffle, grab and jerk. Hands are always on the steering wheel.

[ercchry]

Hmm watching my in-car vids it's shuffle steering for me. I've seen a lot of other people do the release and grab too, seems pretty nuts but it seems to work haha.

best way when drifting to "find" the front wheels is to just let the car do it... but then you need to get your hands back on to feed in more counter steer

im pretty bad and palm it a lot while around the city, shuffle just feels weird, while in a spirited situation i tend to have a combo of moves depending on types of corners, and if i need to find a new gear.

i focus my steering energy more on not locking my thumbs... because in field at race city, and bump steer back in the day, couple close calls :rofl:

EDIT: just searched "in car drifting" and first hit basically is what i mean... must be my drifting background

W_JW8Dd9Ka4

[J-hop]

Interesting video on shuffle steering:

https://youtu.be/e5IJL6rwe_8

I still think there is very little risk with hand over hand though. I'd like to see some injury stats to actually back this up

[speedog]

I just want to know where to get one of those steering wheel balls in Calgary.

[killramos]

I am honestly struggling to think of which of these I do...

[speedog]

Interesting video on shuffle steering:

https://youtu.be/e5IJL6rwe_8

I still think there is very little risk with hand over hand though. I'd like to see some injury stats to actually back this up

One potential issue with what that officer is speaking about would be in winter or slippery conditions - no hands on the wheel like he was doing (letting the vehicle straighten the wheel itself) would seem like he's just asking for trouble on a slippery surface.

[jwslam]

I just want to know where to get one of those steering wheel balls in Calgary.
Lee Valley?
http://www.leevalley.com/en/wood/page.aspx?p=58662&cat=2,2160,51170&ap=1

Fairly sure I've also seen it at walmart

[lilmira]

I avoid relocating my grip on the steering wheel as much as I can especially when fast steering input is required. This way when my hands return to the original position, so are my wheels = going straight. Keeping track of where your wheels are pointing can be tricky with shuffle steering. I didn't realize how messy I got with shuffle steering until that year I did the ice driving course, my steering was all over the place. I don't doubt that some people can shuffle steer really well, not me. Shuffle steer in the parking lot in low speed? sure. That's more for big steering angle than to protect my face from airbag.

Shouldn't you remove you hands from the steering wheel when collision is imminent?

[D'z Nutz]

Shouldn't you remove you hands from the steering wheel when collision is imminent?

You mean like to cover your eyes? :rofl:

Just watched that shuffle video. I definitely don't do that.

[J-hop]

Shouldn't you remove you hands from the steering wheel when collision is imminent?

lol, in theory maybe, but on the streets it's not like those track videos where you have a couple seconds of sliding on grass before hitting the wall. 9/10 times if you're getting into that kind of accident on the streets you either don't have time to react and/or you tense up.

[ExtraSlow]

I THOUGHT I recognized you when we met up last month!
:love::poosie:

[zhao]

Shuffle steering is shit. Hand over hand is terrible. Here is why:

It is better to not get in the accident then to get in one, and if the goal is using these techniques for emergency conditions you are likely fucked with both hand over hand and shuffle steering. The proper method as far as I am concerned and what I teach would be to keep both your hands planted at 3 and 9, or 2 and 10, and never move them ever. Why this is better is because it will let you do rapid precision movements far quicker, and will always have your brain trained to know where dead center on the wheels are. Dead center on the wheel is extremely important and so is the ability to react lightning fast. Not doing fast precision corrections, and not knowing where dead center is, is almost entirely the reason why people get in to tank slappers that end in spin outs.

Everything this guy says in the video about the wheel naturally unwinding to dead center is a null and void under emergency conditions. The car is not predictable when it is trying to spin out and you do not have time to let the front wheels lazily do whatever they feel like.

Also, for those of you who are 'throwing the wheel' to save a car, you are doing it wrong unless your goal is 30 degrees of drift angle or a nice uncontrollable tank slapper. You do not need extreme inputs like that. What you actually need is very minor but very quick inputs (if anyone wants me to go into a lot of detail of why that is, I will). The whole reason you are tossing the wheel is because you are trying to counteract the lack of grip in the rear. minor quick inputs will lose grip of the front wheels instantly and will correct the problem without even letting anyone watching the car realize it almost crashed. if one input isn't enough, you give it another, and another until the car is neutral again.




if you skip the boring stuff until about 15:00, you'll see me correct the rear end coming around at 15:20ish. You'll see me make these same type of corrections again at 16:10 or so. Not a person outside of this car would know what almost happened in any of those instances had I been not so quick or not so precise.


https://youtu.be/VoK-m_CqguI

ALso, do not hook your thumbs in the wheel. You'll notice even in my race car which has no power steering, on semi slicks (that yank the wheel every which way at any defect in the road), on a very rough and bumpy track, I have minimal time with my thumbs inside the wheel. Train yourself to not freeze in an accident and avoid death grips on the wheel. If you're trying to save the car before it hits by using the steering wheel, its because you have time to react, and if you have time to react, you have time to NOT have your hands in a bad spot when the airbag goes off.

I've put an open wheel car into a cement wall before, and I guarantee that steering wheel went from whatever position it was in to dead lock in one direction in a fraction of a second. I have no idea where my hands were exactly at that point, but I know my thumbs were not hooked on the wheel and I know I didn't have a death grip on the wheel because i've trained myself to not do that.

My casual driving position is to have my hands near the bottom of the wheel like MR. shuffle steer in that video, however in any emergency maneuvers my hands snap instantly to 2 and 10 and stay there.

[craigcd]

I just want to know where to get one of those steering wheel balls in Calgary.

For some reason I was under the impression that these would be illegal without a particular reason. I know "hand controls" are a special driving condition that need to be added to your license, like glasses. Not sure if this qualifies, but just a thought.

[A2VR6]

Shuffle steering is shit. Hand over hand is terrible. Here is why:

It is better to not get in the accident then to get in one, and if the goal is using these techniques for emergency conditions you are likely fucked with both hand over hand and shuffle steering. The proper method as far as I am concerned and what I teach would be to keep both your hands planted at 3 and 9, or 2 and 10, and never move them ever. Why this is better is because it will let you do rapid precision movements far quicker, and will always have your brain trained to know where dead center on the wheels are. Dead center on the wheel is extremely important and so is the ability to react lightning fast. Not doing fast precision corrections, and not knowing where dead center is, is almost entirely the reason why people get in to tank slappers that end in spin outs.


In day to day and road course situations I totally agree with you on this. For other situations ie. auto-x/drifting (like you mentioned) I find shuffle (or for some people release/grb/whatever) is almost needed for tight 180/pin turns.

[Tik-Tok]

It is better to not get in the accident then to get in one, and if the goal is using these techniques for emergency conditions you are likely fucked with both hand over hand and shuffle steering. The proper method as far as I am concerned and what I teach would be to keep both your hands planted at 3 and 9, or 2 and 10, and never move them ever. .

I'm not sure my arms can bend that way... you know, for non race-cars that require more than 180* steering wheel turns.

[J-hop]

How do you make turns at intersections or drive around/park in a parking lot with hands locked?

Driving at the track has little to do with this conversation IMO

[bjstare]

How do you make turns at intersections or drive around/park in a parking lot with hands locked?

Driving at the track has little to do with this conversation IMO

Haha that's what I was thinking. Not that I think he's wrong, though (in the context of road courses).

In the context of this conversation though, I never shuffle steer. Always hand over hand in parking lots, occasionally (but rarely) the single hand palm move. I don't want to wear out a spot in the leather on my wheel haha.

[jwslam]

How do you make turns at intersections or drive around/park in a parking lot with hands locked?
With a motorcycle :rofl:

[J-hop]

Haha that's what I was thinking. Not that I think he's wrong, though (in the context of road courses).

In the context of this conversation though, I never shuffle steer. Always hand over hand in parking lots, occasionally (but rarely) the single hand palm move. I don't want to wear out a spot in the leather on my wheel haha.

Totally agree zhao Is one of the most experienced if not the most experienced track driver on here and I completely respect that and would never try to tell him how to drive at the track. There are just too many situations on the street that never occur on a track built for racing.

[speedog]

Totally agree zhao Is one of the most experienced if not the most experienced track driver on here and I completely respect that and would never try to tell him how to drive at the track. There are just too many situations on the street that never occur on a track built for racing.

This and I have to wonder how much of a possibility it is that your steering wheel airbag will blow while getting into a collision while you're doing a slow sharp turn.

[zhao]

How do you make turns at intersections or drive around/park in a parking lot with hands locked?

Driving at the track has little to do with this conversation IMO

There is no corner on the road where you need to shuffle steer or hand over hand to make the corner at speed. I actually do not think i've encountered an autocross course that requires hand over hand or shuffle steering to make a corner (you actually do not need a lot of steering input to turn a car, using weight transfer is better than extreme inputs IMO). I've done very tight switch backs at speed (knox mountain corner 1 is pretty tight, plus a lot of other bc tight mountain rural roads (i grew up there, go back lots)) and that did not require me to take my hands off the wheel. I dont even think I've ever encountered a go kart track that has required this, and those are all about switchbacks.

You can use whatever method you want, but when it comes down to it, if your car loses grip and you need to re-balance it's grip, shuffle steering and hand over hand are not very good for control compared to having your hands glued to the wheel. Those methods will likely put you in a tank slapper (lots of videos proving that), while my method will likely save you from spinning out with minimal training (I believe every student i've had in the last few years was able to master catching a car with the rear end kicking out by the end of the road race school). As far as I am concerned I rather spin out on a race track than the street too. Race tracks are hella safe to spin out on... streets not so much.

You also aren't driving around in the parking lot at a fast enough speed to need to do emergency maneuvers so I couldn't care less where your hands are. You also aren't getting in an accident that blows the airbag in a parking lot. U-turns are low speed too so who cares. anything tight that requires more movement then planting your hands on the wheel will be at low speed. Your car just doesn't have enough grip to turn tight enough at speed in a situation where you need more movement of the wheel. The whole point to having your hands planted is when shit goes sideways at 80 or 120kph, your hands are trained to muscle memory where to go and how to catch the car. quick jab left or right and then back to center = car will likely be instantly saved. doing 180? degrees left and random amount right, or vice versa is just going to require another correction..... which if it is random again will require another correction...... which may eventually end up being the correct amount to save the car, or will cause the spin out by continuously destabilizing the car worse and worse.

[J-hop]

I agree with you that no corner on a single road would ever need hand over hand or shuffle steer. But turning from one road to another in most cases simply can't be done without shifting your hands in one way or another period. The debate then is which is better, to shuffle or hand over hand.

[zieg]

79379

[speedog]

I agree with you that no corner on a single road would ever need hand over hand or shuffle steer. But turning from one road to another in most cases simply can't be done without shifting your hands in one way or another period. The debate then is which is better, to shuffle or hand over hand.

Thank you, I had never made any mention of where one might use shuffle or hand over hand in my original post and even in zhao's own video he does both at different times.

So the debate is still as you state and I still question the whole air bag thing as situations where one would use these steering methods are almost always slow speed scenarios. I suppose one good example is the John Laurie/McKnight transition - I can not go around that corner in my truck without either doing shuffle or hand over hand and I still revert to hand over hand. If I were to keep my wheels at 10/2 or 9/3, I'd be skipping over the center barrier if on NB John Laurie and that would certainly place me in a much more dangerous situation as opposed to doing some hand over hand and getting around that corner.

So for scenarios that warrant such, do people do hand over hand or shuffle?

[zhao]

I agree with you that no corner on a single road would ever need hand over hand or shuffle steer. But turning from one road to another in most cases simply can't be done without shifting your hands in one way or another period. The debate then is which is better, to shuffle or hand over hand.

shuffle steering might be the more logical of the 2, but I personally prefer to hand over hand in low speed scenarios because shuffle steering looks retarded. I also dont think it makes a difference... even turning right.... because in order to require hand over hand/shuffle to make a right hand corner it has to be so tight and you need to be going so slow that your odds of an airbag deployment level accident are basically zilch.

[J-hop]

shuffle steering might be the more logical of the 2, but I personally prefer to hand over hand in low speed scenarios because shuffle steering looks retarded. I also dont think it makes a difference... even turning right.... because in order to require hand over hand/shuffle to make a right hand corner it has to be so tight and you need to be going so slow that your odds of an airbag deployment level accident are basically zilch.

Yea I agree, I actually spent a whole day trying to shuffle steer recently and gave up. Hand over hand is just so much faster

[speedog]

Yea I agree, I actually spent a whole day trying to shuffle steer recently and gave up. Hand over hand is just so much faster

I couldn't even go a day, hand over hand wins out for me.

[spikerS]

I don't shuffle or hand over hand. Because I learned in a manual, I drive with my left palm, and my right hand is always on the shifter. I apply pressure with my left palm, and input my steering. when I want to straighten out, i relax that pressure and let the castor effect take over. My hand will also do like a 360 degree sweep of the steering wheel in a turn if I need to hit my signal indicator as I use my left hand for that too.

It's kinda hard to describe. I will have to take my go pro out to the truck and try to take a video of it.

[J-hop]

I don't shuffle or hand over hand. Because I learned in a manual, I drive with my left palm, and my right hand is always on the shifter. I apply pressure with my left palm, and input my steering. when I want to straighten out, i relax that pressure and let the castor effect take over. My hand will also do like a 360 degree sweep of the steering wheel in a turn if I need to hit my signal indicator as I use my left hand for that too.

It's kinda hard to describe. I will have to take my go pro out to the truck and try to take a video of it.

I learned on a standard as well and was taught the hand shouldn't sit resting on the shifter it's bad form. Plus putting a constant pressure on the shifter isn't great for the transmission

[jwslam]

I learned on a standard as well and was taught the hand shouldn't sit resting on the shifter it's bad form. Plus putting a constant pressure on the shifter isn't great for the transmission
I've learned that too. Instead I'm constantly playing with the handbrake release button, which I don't know if it's any better.

[J-hop]

I've learned that too. Instead I'm constantly playing with the handbrake release button, which I don't know if it's any better.

Yea was taught shift and return to steering wheel. i used to be sloppy when I was in my teens cuz gangsta one hand and lean back was the way to go. I notice my seats gotten a lot more upright as I've got older and I always 9 and 3 it as one hand on top of the wheel feels kinda lame now. At one time I thought it looked cool, but at one time I thought underglow looked cool too :rofl:

[rage2]

There is no corner on the road where you need to shuffle steer or hand over hand to make the corner at speed.
I tried this as a test this weekend, even using the widest line possible, and there are certainly corners where I couldn't stay 9 and 3 with my hands and still hit the apex. 90 degree turns at intersections? I'm tapping the next lane. Parking lot entrances? Half my car is on the wrong side of the road. I'd hate to try the same test in an SUV or something. It all depends on how quick your steering is, not everyone has race car quick steering.

Having your hands upside down with the wheel turned 180 degrees doesn't give you the best strength and control either unless you go through race car driver training to strengthen muscles you'd typically never use. I'd say for a normal person, anything past 90 degrees and you're sacrificing strength and agility, which is why you need to rely on shuffle/hand over hand. Give me a proper track car or a kart on a proper track, and yea, 9 and 3 all day every day.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ctTELPJoPMg

[Murray Peterson]

I had one instructor (multiple U.S. national championships) that stated it the best for me: "You want your hands in a neutral (10 and 3) position in mid-corner, since that is the place where you need to do fast, controlled, and accurate corrections. I don't give a flying **** what you do to get your hands there by mid-corner, and I don't care where your hands are when you are going down a straight; you won't need to correct for anything there."

He also suggested that I "pre-position" my hands for upcoming corners. e.g. If a left turn is coming up, move my left hand to the top of the wheel in preparation.

This has been one of the most beneficial bits of advice I have gotten over the years.

[zhao]

I tried this as a test this weekend, even using the widest line possible, and there are certainly corners where I couldn't stay 9 and 3 with my hands and still hit the apex. 90 degree turns at intersections? I'm tapping the next lane. Parking lot entrances? Half my car is on the wrong side of the road. I'd hate to try the same test in an SUV or something. It all depends on how quick your steering is, not everyone has race car quick steering.


I did test it myself too, and even doing right hand turns downtown I was able to keep my hands planted. Steering rack ratios are relatively the same for power steering vehicles. race cars actually potentially have worse ratios as it is not uncommon for them to have steering racks built to be manual racks for street use, that often had larger steering ratios to compensate for the lack of power for parking and low speed street use.

Why I can keep my hands planted is because I believe people turn the steering wheel far more than is actually necessary (If you turn it beyond a certain point you are not actually turning any more and are actually just scrubbing your tires). I also run somewhat of a racing line within my lane, which is probably why coupled not over turning the wheel i was able to do sharp 90 degree right hand corners hugging the curb lane downtown within my lane. I admit I was at the limit of how tight I was able to turn.... As I said before however, at low speed, who cares :D. You're not going to have to do any crazy avoidance or recovery maneuvers at 20kph.

I also admit driving something gigantic will probably throw all this out the window, however I have been driving my 1500 gmc the last week and I haven't ran in to a corner I couldn't keep my hands planted.