Quasi/semi/sorta official 2017/2018 snow tire thread

[speedog]

Saw someone with snow tires on today, not sure if they're prepping real early or just haven't taken them off from the last winter season if you could call it a winter season at all.

Also named this a snow tire thread as all seasons are considered winter tires if they have the M&S rating - the BC government highways department has a document on-line saying such, that winter tires are required on certain BC roads during the winter and that winter tires must have either the snow (snowflake) or M&S (mud and snow) rating.

As such, what about all weather tires - can they come with a M&S rating?

[speedog]

Did some snooping and it appears that all weather tires can come or do come with a snowflake (snow) tire rating - one step above an all season tire. Never the less, all three types can be rated as winter tires if they have the appropriate rating.

[ExtraSlow]

There's more than one question in there, but I'll cherry pick my personal favourite. An all-season tire can have the M+S rating, and still NOT be a real winter tire. The Mountain and snowflake symbol is yet another beast, which is better than "just" M+S. I would assume the "all-weather" tires are M+S rated and probably mountain and snowflake rated, but they are another compromise, and as such as not quite a true winter tire, or at least, not as good on ice as the true soft ice tires.

They you have the M+S or mountain and snowflake or all-season tires that can be studded.

Fuck I need a(nother) beer.

[speedog]

All depends on the governing body I guess as BC's highway department calls both a snow and M&S rated tire winter tires.

[ExtraSlow]

Yeah they both meet the regulations, but they do not perform the same on icy roads, trust me.

[speedog]

I don't think there's many that will debate the performance issue.

On a side note, it is early for snow tires, no?

[btimbit]

People running them year round seem to betting more and more popular. I did it back in high school when I couldn't afford two sets and wanted the safer option. Starting to see it more and more now

[speedog]

BC-'s information on 'winter' rated tires - link (http://www2.gov.bc.ca/gov/content/transportation/driving-and-cycling/traveller-information/seasonal/winter-driving/winter-tires-and-chains/about-winter-tires).

[killramos]

Basically anything other than high performance summer tires qualify for BC's "winter" tire law

We ran a set of blizzaks on the FJ cruiser 12 months of the year when I was in school out east. Didn't want to transport and store the summers on rims out there haha.

[HiSpec]

I'm still rolling on winters. Trying to burn off the remaining treads since it is useless for this coming winter.

[Xtrema]

I don't think there's many that will debate the performance issue.

On a side note, it is early for snow tires, no?

Winter tires in summer is as dangerous as all season under -10c.

If you can only afford a set of tires, go all weather.

An unscientific personal temperature bias:

Performance summer: 15C+
All Season: -10C-30C
All Weather: -20C-25C
Winter: -30C-5C.

[e31]

Bonesaw here is ready for any season with these tires...

Get studded winter tires and wear them out until they become studded-high-performance-summer-rallycross-street-drag-slicks.

https://s22.postimg.org/vgtcf2imp/tires2.png

[zhao]

Winter tires in summer is as dangerous as all season under -10c.

I'd disagree. your numbers are way too nannyish.

performance tires are actually more grippy right up until there is icing on the road. -5 out and no frosting or moisture at all = RE71R's > winter tires for cornering and stopping (I run multiple cars and routinely have one with summers that I drive right up until it becomes deadly to do so, and that car has crazy grip right up until one morning I wake up and the roads have a coating of thin ice and it now is full retard to drive that car) Just like slicks are better for grip in the rain until the moment you start to hydroplane (which actually takes a fair bit of rain to do so. I always run slicks in the rain in alberta for racing and i haven't had an issue with wet grip since one weekend in 2010). Not running performance summers under 15C is overkill too. when temps get close to 0 is when i'd say they are no longer wise.

As far as winters being run all year..... well, not every winter tire is the same as another, nor is every vehicle the same as another. I'm running blizzaks all year around on my truck. I see zero problem running performance winters on anything year round either. The downside to winters in summer is if you are time attacking the street you are going to wear your tires out very quickly, plus with high profiles turn in and handling is rather delayed and squishy if you run something squishy like a blizzak.... but I wouldn't call it dangerous.

[Xtrema]

I'd disagree. your numbers are way too nannyish.

performance tires are actually more grippy right up until there is icing on the road. -5 out and no frosting or moisture at all = RE71R's > winter tires for cornering and stopping (I run multiple cars and routinely have one with summers that I drive right up until it becomes deadly to do so, and that car has crazy grip right up until one morning I wake up and the roads have a coating of thin ice and it now is full retard to drive that car) Just like slicks are better for grip in the rain until the moment you start to hydroplane (which actually takes a fair bit of rain to do so. I always run slicks in the rain in alberta for racing and i haven't had an issue with wet grip since one weekend in 2010). Not running performance summers under 15C is overkill too. when temps get close to 0 is when i'd say they are no longer wise.

As far as winters being run all year..... well, not every winter tire is the same as another, nor is every vehicle the same as another. I'm running blizzaks all year around on my truck. I see zero problem running performance winters on anything year round either. The downside to winters in summer is if you are time attacking the street you are going to wear your tires out very quickly, plus with high profiles turn in and handling is rather delayed and squishy if you run something squishy like a blizzak.... but I wouldn't call it dangerous.

I have had summers on as soon as it over 0c overnight.

I have performance tires (cold) that are soft enough that are ok until 0c. I have some that basically quits around 5-7c. None of them will hold you when you pull 1g corner until 15c.

As for winters in summer, again, it's the same argument from people who say they are ok with all season in -30c.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-drive/culture/commentary/why-its-dangerous-to-still-drive-on-your-winter-tires/article24189739/


once temperatures are steadily above 7C, winter tires (which are designed to stay soft in cold conditions) start to lose their grip and control. That means you need a lot more distance to come to a complete stop than you do with all-season or summer tires. A 2012 Consumer Reports study found you need one-and-a-half to two car lengths more. The hotter the temperature, the worse the decline – more than 30 degrees and the rubber will start to marble, which causes it to form balls and spin under the wheel. It’s a dangerous choice, a bit like buying an airplane and scrimping on the wings.

Of course, some will say that's conspiracy theory by the big tires.

[zhao]

I'll give you some math for thought. I ran an open wheel car the end of October on a track once, in the morning. It wasn't winter yet but it was getting chilly. My lap time was 62 seconds on softs. The fastest lap ever in that model of car was very high 59s on the same tires. Someone ran one with street tires before and was around 68 a lap.

Did the 5 degree track affect lap times? Yes. Did it do it significantly? No. Did the race tires still out perform street tires in grip? Hell yes. Could anyone run faster lap times with all seasons? Not possible.

Conclusion is sticky summer tires are still stickier, even when cold.

As for marbeling, that is negligible imo. If you think that is a deciding factor you should never drive on all seasons, especially old hockey puck ones, and should be running re71rs at worst in summer. Tires that grip well marble up too. In fact the more grip usually the more marbling on grippy tires. It's not black and white....tires are about trade offs/sacrificing one thing for the detriment of another. Plus Tires that don't marble, like hockey puck all seasons, are usually not marbling because they have no grip.

[Tik-Tok]

Of course, some will say that's conspiracy theory by the big tires.

I'd love to see a real world comparison, same car, same conditions. Stopping distance and skid-pad. Several different winter tires, vs All-seasons in +30 weather.

[speedog]

I'd love to see a real world comparison, same car, same conditions. Stopping distance and skid-pad. Several different winter tires, vs All-seasons in +30 weather.

You mean snow tire versus all seasons but that's not even the debate. Original topic was not intended to spark a debate over snow versus all season versus whatever - topic was related to what various jurisdictions call a winter tire.

[zhao]

I'd love to see a real world comparison, same car, same conditions. Stopping distance and skid-pad. Several different winter tires, vs All-seasons in +30 weather.

I would too actually. There will definitely be a difference, but how much would be interesting. Whatever the result is I'd say it's still a reason to never buy all seasons

[Xtrema]

I'd love to see a real world comparison, same car, same conditions. Stopping distance and skid-pad. Several different winter tires, vs All-seasons in +30 weather.



A 2012 Consumer Reports study found you need one-and-a-half to two car lengths more.

Wonder if someone can dig that up from Consumer Reports.


I'll give you some math for thought. I ran an open wheel car the end of October on a track once, in the morning. It wasn't winter yet but it was getting chilly. My lap time was 62 seconds on softs. The fastest lap ever in that model of car was very high 59s on the same tires. Someone ran one with street tires before and was around 68 a lap.

Did the 5 degree track affect lap times? Yes. Did it do it significantly? No. Did the race tires still out perform street tires in grip? Hell yes. Could anyone run faster lap times with all seasons? Not possible.

Conclusion is sticky summer tires are still stickier, even when cold.

When I said cold, I meant tire temp is same as ambient temp. If you track it, you would have warm it up a bit a few laps in.

Anyway, that's why I said it's my bias unscientific opinion based on my experience.

And back on topic, I have not found 1 article saying running winters in 30C heat is fine if not dangerous.

[max_boost]

I have ran winter tires through the summer to burn off the tread before. It worked fine in my case.

And i do notice a quite a few people leaving theirs on

[schocker]

I have ran winter tires through the summer to burn off the tread before. It worked fine in my case.

And i do notice a quite a few people leaving theirs on
I have also. I am guessing it isn't as efficient at channeling rain as a summer tire, but I had no issues and since it was so soft, it was grippy as can be. Obviously wore much faster though.

[Sentry]

I'm a big fan of the chinese stuff. My winter beater is RWD with a locked diff so I need good tires to not kill myself. Has 18" wheels too so a brand new set of tires for $400 shipped is a no brainer.

Past two seasons I ran MINERVA ECOSTUD but I'm gonna sell off the good pair I have left and pick up some new SAILUN ICEBLAZER studded tires in the fall.

Previously ran a set of ICEBLAZERRRRs on my Mustang SVO.

My cost per season is about $100 to constantly have new or one year old winter tires (selling off the two year old tires).

EDIT: Also, I am a child and I think the names for chinese tires are hilarious.

[tirebob]

Wonder if someone can dig that up from Consumer Reports.



When I said cold, I meant tire temp is same as ambient temp. If you track it, you would have warm it up a bit a few laps in.

Anyway, that's why I said it's my bias unscientific opinion based on my experience.

And back on topic, I have not found 1 article saying running winters in 30C heat is fine if not dangerous.

Running a winter tire in summer is not inherently dangerous at all. Winter tires are still structurally designed to handle any temperature range they could be exposed to in North America without failing. They would not be allowed on the road otherwise. That said, they will obviously be affected during operation on the extreme end of the scale. In the heat of summer the will wear faster. They will not brake as quickly or respond as quickly under emergency maneuvers, especially at high speeds. That is pretty indisputable, but that said, if you are not an aggressive driver and you leave proper distance between cars you re following etc, you can mitigate these issues to the point you are realistically no less safe than any other driver who behaves in a normal manner behind the wheel.

There is a big difference between "unsafe" and "not optimal"...

[Sonic]

Aren't Blizzaks all season after a certain point?

[tirebob]

Aren't Blizzaks all season after a certain point?

Only the very first generation Blizzaks used winter compounding for the half of the tread depth before becoming an all season tire. They have not used that technology since the 90's, but the uneducated internet, and shitty tire sales people, keep that false information alive.