Being sued by tenants for mold in rental house, advice?

[cidley69]

If anyone has experience defending themselves against lawsuit from tenants, please send me a pm.

Suggestions for lawyers that specialize in this area greatly appreciated.

event timeline of story:

Nov 2, 2016 - showed house to couple young guys renting their first house, liked it and want to return with a dad as second opinion
Nov 11, 2016 - showed house 2nd time, they brought a dad (he mentioned owning several houses and renting them out) along to help assess fit of renting house; they decided to take it, did walk through pre-rental inspection and signed a lease for term Nov 15, 2016 to June 30, 2017, rent being $1400/month
Nov 15, 2016 - tenants took possession of house, there was a 3rd female tenant going to live there also, presumably with one of the guys
Jan 20, 2017 - tenants texted to report dryer vent leaking, lint blowing out of it and high humidity in dryer area, he was afraid humidity might cause mold; mentioned his dad was going to come fix it with him
- told him to save any receipts for parts and deduct it from rent payment
Apr 12 - 2017 - visited house to assess extent of mold issue, mold appeared to be localized to 6" area along baseboard, on wall opposite bathroom; further exploration led to entire laminate floor of room being removed, fingers of mold in joints of baseboard, portion of wall (drywall and studs/plate)also had mold and were removed. All visible signs of mold removed.
Apr 14 - tenants noted mold smell dissipating, dad visited and think there may be humidity issue remaining in bathroom
Apr 20, 2017 - received noise complaint letter from city, excessive noise from garage occurred night of Apr 6
Apr 21, 2017 - visited house again to paint mold kill paint on exposed concrete in affected room
Apr 23, 2017 - asked if any mold smell remained, tenant replied: nothing significant
Apr 24, 2017 - tenant reported small mold spot found on laundry room floor in closet, under vinyl roll flooring
Apr 30, 2017 - visited house to assess laundry room mold, found approx. 2" circle of mold on concrete floor under vinyl, sprayed it with Concrobium Mold Control, propped vinyl up to allow airflow
May 4, 2017 - offered to give portion of rent payment back as compensation for lack of use of basement (no mold smell remained in house, all areas of mold appeared to be remediated); tenant replied that upstairs they "haven't stopped using the premises in any way" and any reimbursement would only apply to the female tenant staying downstairs
May 5, 2017 - tenants provided copy of a 3rd party mold assessment report dated May 4, 2017; several species of mold above Alberta Health limits; report advised to vacate premises
May 7, 2017 - phone conversation with tenants, they plan to move out asap, want their rent back for May and damage deposit refunded in full
May 8, 2017 - emt sent to tenants for $1867 (refund for: 1/3 Apr rent and full month of May rent payment)
May 8, 2017 - I spoke with mold testing/remediation company, they noted that mold tests done post mold remediation, but before thorough top-to-bottom cleaning of entire house with bleach would be picking up residual mold spores from mold being disturbed; contacted tenants, offered for them to store possessions in garage, while house was: professionally cleaned, ducts cleaned, and 3rd party mold tests done again
May 9, 2017 - tenants aid they'd prefer to find other rental accommodation, asked for damage deposit back; told them if the yard and upstairs were in clean condition would return deposit in full; agreed to meet May 17 for post rental inspection

May 9, 2017 - female tenant texted me copy of the mold test invoice for $315
May 10, 2017 - emt sent to tenant for $315
May 17, 2017 - tenants were no-shows for post inspection; house left in poor condition, washing machine broken, bathroom, fridge, stove dirty, 20 bags of garbage, piles of cigarette butts in yard, garage bonus room floors sticky/dirty, no attempt made to return garage, upstairs or yard to pre-rental condition
Jun 2, 2017 - emt sent to tenant for $1092 ($1400 damage refund less $308 for utilities used until end of Apr)
Aug 15, 2017 - received letter from lawyer stating client is pursuing damages for amount of $25,000, if not paid in full within 10 days lawsuit for "significantly greater amount" to follow

I've never tried to rent this house out as a slumlord. Anything broken I have it fixed right away. Always professionally cleaned prior to move in. The revenue is slightly less than carrying costs, so I try to keep costs down by doing repairs myself if I can.

Don't feel its fair to pay them $25K, would rather take my chances with court/lawsuit.....unless there's no chance I'd win.

Open to hearing your opinion on this.

[RickDaTuner]

Why did the mold get so bad? it could not be from a dryer vent hose leaking. that would require them to be running laundry almost 24/7

And why didn't you go in to fix the issue right away, or also inspect the work that they had done.

In hindsight I would have told them to stop using the dryer.

It sounds like there is more to this story than whats being told, and it kinda sounds to me like they were growing "plants" in the home.

Our climate is way to dry to support that kind of out of control mold growth, unless there is a constant water source.

[Gestalt]

Do you have insurance?

[msommers]

Rick's right, something sounds really fishy here for that must moisture to be building up. Is the dryer in a basement that had foundation leakage?

I wish you best of luck with this but for future advice never let the tenant fix anything. I don't give a flying fuck how qualified they think they are, it's my house and I'll get someone who can warranty their work and parts.

Hopefully you have records of conversations, photos etc in case this turns worse. What exactly are they suing $25,000? Confirmed health issues by a doctor stating directly from association of mold?!

[cidley69]

Clarification, the mold was found in two rooms, under laminate floor of bedroom, and small spot under lino floor in laundry room. I have insurance, but I attempted to make claim for the mold damage, and its not covered due to slow water infiltration not being covered, only "sudden, accidental release" is insurable loss. Not sure what this means regarding being sued for something that is not insurable loss...?

Damage claim is: they say I knew about preexisting mold, and was negligent in renting house out, and they have: vision damage, lack of energy (direct quote), weight loss, pain and suffereing, loss of clothing and furniture, hair loss....will report the full list form lawyer letter.

I'm think it must be hard to prove any of those issues directly caused by mold exposure. You'd need before/after exams and causation?

[R-Audi]

Best advice would be to get a lawyer....

[cidley69]

I will talk to lawyer, just hoping someone can recommend good one for this specific type of situation. Or any landlords have dealt with being sued by tenants?

[RickDaTuner]

Clarification, the mold was found in two rooms, under laminate floor of bedroom, and small spot under lino floor in laundry room. I have insurance, but I attempted to make claim for the mold damage, and its not covered due to slow water infiltration not being covered, only "sudden, accidental release" is insurable loss. Not sure what this means regarding being sued for something that is not insurable loss...?

Damage claim is: they say I knew about preexisting mold, and was negligent in renting house out, and they have: vision damage, lack of energy (direct quote), weight loss, pain and suffereing, loss of clothing and furniture, hair loss....will report the full list form lawyer letter.

I'm think it must be hard to prove any of those issues directly caused by mold exposure. You'd need before/after exams and causation? i'm not a doctor but I can assure you that that level of mould toxicity would show up in a blood test

[tonytiger55]

May 8, 2017 - I spoke with mold testing/remediation company, they noted that mold tests done post mold remediation, but before thorough top-to-bottom cleaning of entire house with bleach would be picking up residual mold spores from mold being disturbed; contacted tenants, offered for them to store possessions in garage, while house was: professionally cleaned, ducts cleaned, and 3rd party mold tests done again


What were the results of the 3rd party mould test results?

[zhao]

Counter sue them for not fixing the mold problem they were paid to do and for 25g for tenant pain and suffering?

I think 2 options here; 1) lawyer up, law society of Alberta will hook you up with a lawyer name that will give a free consult and advice. 2) do it yourself and drag the ever loving shit out of it in court. If they're paying a lawyer I can't see it being less than 10g out of their pocket. They might just go away.

[KPHMPH]

I'm with zhao- counter sue to scare them away. AS LONG as your paper trail lines up ( email, text, phone calls and notes you may have written down )

If you end up talking it over before a judge BEFORE court make sure to go through all their paper work to see what things they actually have ( tests from doctors, loss of energy, bullshittery, etc )

[gwill]

you seem to have phenomenal notes and an easy paper trail the judge can follow from things. Ignore the 25k lawsuit as the tenants need to prove damages of 25k which seems impossible.

You paid for everything, you attempted to fix everything. You have slummy tenants trying to take advantage of you. What you need to decide is... Is it cheaper to settle and get them out of your face or will you take them to court?

When you counter sue and win you will win costs +5%. Worst case you lose the law suit and pay the damages what the tenants can prove.. which i doubt is much. Damage deposit and 1 months rent....

You'll see any evidence in your mediation/pre trial. At the pre trial the judge will make a recommendation that you should listen to. It's at this point you settle or you realize youll win. You have nothing to lose by taking it to this step without a lawyer.

[cidley69]

Thanks for all the replies. Gwill, that's the kind of info really great to hear. Will research the process and attempt to go it my own until discovery (does this term apply to lawsuit process?).

House is insured by TD melonix, says in the policy being sued is covered by liability clauses. Insurance should provide counsel, going to call to discuss today.

Side note, I googled the lawyers office that is on letterhead, on July 29, 2017 that lawyer was suspended by ab law society for 14 days, due to:

"was found guilty of failing to properly supervise his staff and failing to conduct himself as a reasonable and prudent solicitor, which enabled his clients and others to achieve an improper purpose."

Wonder if suspension might have been due to bringing forth frivolous lawsuits? Sounds like a schister.

[cidley69]

Read up on lawsuit process. If/when they file a claim against me, my next step is to file a Dispute Note and/or Counter Claim.

This is when I'd lay out facts to support my case and monetary costs.

Anyone filed dispute note without using a lawyer?

[roopi]

Aug 15, 2017 - received letter from lawyer stating client is pursuing damages for amount of $25,000, if not paid in full within 10 days lawsuit for "significantly greater amount" to follow
.

As stated I'd counter sue or follow this through to court. Anyone can have a threatening letter sent. It's a matter of following through with it. Remember Banjeree's lawyer's dropped him within a week after the threatening letter was sent.:rofl:

[HiTempguy1]

You haven't been sued. They hired a lawyer to send a shakedown letter.

The best advice is "be prepared", but currently, you haven't even had a suit filed against you. It's all crap. Ignore it and wait it out. If they are stupid enough to pay a lawyer $10k+ and try and claim $25k in damages, that's their problem.

[gwill]

Read up on lawsuit process. If/when they file a claim against me, my next step is to file a Dispute Note and/or Counter Claim.

This is when I'd lay out facts to support my case and monetary costs.

Anyone filed dispute note without using a lawyer?

I've done small claims without a lawyer. Your dispute notes are for the judge and easy to write. Use simple point form disputing any allegations they make. When it comes to the mediation its a chance for the judge to hear out both sides anf ask questions.

Wait for the evidence they are providing and you can make a better judgement call on how to move forward from there.

[cidley69]

At what stage in process do I get to see their evidence?

[dirtsniffer]

you're insured right? obviously don't pay now as likely it won't be covered under the policy.

Personally, I would ignore this. If you get served then you create a claim and pay your deductible on your policy. From that point, the insurance lawyer will take over and drag this out for 10 years.

Should definitely check your policy to make sure you're covered.

[googe]

Keep in mind that lawyers like this usually work on contingency. Most likely these guys haven't paid the lawyer anything and probably never will. Lawyer will take 30% of the winnings, and it's basically a speculative bet that he gets that. If at some point it looks like he isn't going to win, he will drop it and walk.

On the defense side, however, you won't get a contingency option because there is no chance of a jackpot. You're paying billable hours.

[A790]

If at some point it looks like he isn't going to win, he will drop it and walk.

Banerjee style.

[Gestalt]

I suggested earlier, I would just let insurance take care of it.

I wonder if the letter was dated during the lawyers suspension?

I guess you could just write a polite letter back, I would not "reveal" any specifics, dates, times without consulting a lawyer, but you can maybe point out in the lease anything that supports your side, like you are not a baby sitter, and that you took all reasonable steps to mitigate the situation and have complete records and receipts., (keep it very open and general) and that if they pursue this, you will be seeking legal council and potentially counter sue.

[googe]

On the other hand, if you do reveal all specifics, the lawyer might just take one look at it and be like "Yeah ok this landlord did his homework, I'm out of here before I waste any time"

Then again if you do both, and he gets a letter from a lawyer with all of that info, it'll be even more discouraging? Not sure if the cost is worth it though and the former is good enough.

Or, find a reason to throw a countersuit threat in there, even if you don't think you can win, but that you can create doubt over. That will also change the risk equation for their ghetto ambulance chaser wannabe lawyer.

[gwill]

you don't understand how small claims works. You'll get all the evidence before your pre trial mediation that happens. After a dispute note gets filed i believe all documents must be sent to the other parties.

And no lawyer will work on contingency.

[googe]

And no lawyer will work on contingency.

Haha, ok sure thing! :rofl:

Couldn't have made a more uninformed comment. Lawyers basically invented working on contingency and there are whole industries built around that. All lawyers on TV ads are working on contingency. They prefer it if they can get the business, because that's how they make real money. No lawyer gets rich by billing hourly. He can either bill a few hours for a demand letter, or pocket 1/3rd of any settlement/judgment.

Also, not talking about small claims. If he got a demand letter from a lawyer, threatening a "significantly greater amount", it doesn't seem like the intent is small claims. But it's not totally clear. Regardless, it's irrelevant, because the goal for both parties is to settle pre-trial.

[botox]

Tell them to shove it and you are looking forward in collecting in your counter claim in court. If you get served then go with your counter suit, for now I would just gather and organize any evidence you have to prepare for a counter. I don't think talked to any lawyer at this point is necessary. Any sleezy lawyer will draft up a letter for you for a price so just wait and see what happens. Chances are it'll blow over like a nasty fart.

If you do go with a lawyer they can talk to each other and you may be able to end this before it goes to court but you will have a lawyer bill. We did this and the lawyers agreed it was a waste of time and ended it before it could go any further because we had the upper hand and at the end of the day, the only people that win are the lawyers........

[chkolny541]

Wanted to chime in and say OP you really dont need to stress over this, relax and let insurance deal with it. Lots of scammy people out there trying to take advantage of any situation and get rich quick. Let insurance obtain counsel and sit back.

[gwill]

Haha, ok sure thing! :rofl:

Couldn't have made a more uninformed comment. Lawyers basically invented working on contingency and there are whole industries built around that. All lawyers on TV ads are working on contingency. They prefer it if they can get the business, because that's how they make real money. No lawyer gets rich by billing hourly. He can either bill a few hours for a demand letter, or pocket 1/3rd of any settlement/judgment.

Also, not talking about small claims. If he got a demand letter from a lawyer, threatening a "significantly greater amount", it doesn't seem like the intent is small claims. But it's not totally clear. Regardless, it's irrelevant, because the goal for both parties is to settle pre-trial.

Accident lawyers take contingency as their guaranteed but that's it. No lawyer will take a law suit on contingency as there are few guarantees.

I had to sue in small claims on a real estate issue that no lawyer would take. I called 40+ officers and offered to pay every lawyer i called and no one would take the case as it was a measly 25k lawsuit and wasnt worth their time.. If you think contingency cases are done pro bono for some greasy shake down with little hope of winning you are sadly mistaken.

But hey you seem to know better then the rest of us. Where was this industry full of pro bono free lawyers when i needed one???

[cidley69]

Just had a disheartening conversation with my insurance company.....there position is that if the particular issue that led the lawsuit is not covered by insurance, then the liability insurance is also not covered. As the mold issue was not covered (due to not being caused by a sudden, accidental release of water, was caused by a slow continuous issue that led to mold) any liability associated with mold is also not covered. FUCK! No insurance lawyer to help with this.

Maybe I'd be better off to engage them and settle before they sue for "significantly greater amount"?

Anyone recommend a lawyer?

[blitz]

Don't settle, this seems like a greasy shakedown from a sketchy lawyer.

[spikerS]

Don't settle, this seems like a greasy shakedown from a sketchy lawyer.

+1

I would not be looking to settle anything at this point. I know it is stressful, but, the burden of proof is on them. I wouldn't budge an inch, and I would advise them of your address and times you are available to be served the court documents and take it from there.

[A790]

Just had a disheartening conversation with my insurance company.....there position is that if the particular issue that led the lawsuit is not covered by insurance, then the liability insurance is also not covered. As the mold issue was not covered (due to not being caused by a sudden, accidental release of water, was caused by a slow continuous issue that led to mold) any liability associated with mold is also not covered. FUCK! No insurance lawyer to help with this.

Maybe I'd be better off to engage them and settle before they sue for "significantly greater amount"?

Anyone recommend a lawyer?
Don't say a word to them until you talk to a lawyer first.

[revelations]

If these were MODEL tenants who didnt drink or smoke ... and suddenly became ill because of mold, then I could see them having a case. These pigs living in their filth wont get any respect from small claims (if it ever goes that far) once you produce the photos of the place - post move out. These pigs also are probably broke, or very near being broke, and wont risk maxing out their CCs for a case they may not see results from for years.

ALso. 4 months is far too long. I would have been there probably that week to check the issue out first hand. Trusting the common renter to do anything is very poor judgement.


Jan 20, 2017 - tenants texted to report dryer vent leaking, lint blowing out of it and high humidity in dryer area, he was afraid humidity might cause mold; mentioned his dad was going to come fix it with him
- told him to save any receipts for parts and deduct it from rent payment
Apr 12, 2017 - visited house to assess extent of mold issue, mold appeared to be localized to 6" area along baseboard, on wall opposite bathroom; further exploration led to entire laminate floor of room being removed, fingers of mold in joints of baseboard, portion of wall (drywall and studs/plate)also had mold and were removed. All visible signs of mold removed.

[cidley69]

7981979820

Would either waiver of indemnity or force majeure clause from lease agreement apply to this situation?

[zhao]

Don't settle, this seems like a greasy shakedown from a sketchy lawyer.

+2.

like I said earlier call the law society of alberta, ask to be referred to a lawyer that deals with this crap. The lawyer they refer you to should give a 30 minute free consult, and you should understand where you stand far better after that then dragging this thread out for the next 6 months.

Do not settle until you at least do that.

I dont think anyone in this thread is a lawyer, so our info isn't exactly worth a lot, but I dont see how they have much of a case unless you make it for them. I mean, their whole argument from one angle is you were negligent in contracting them to fix the mold issue that they then fucked up fixing properly and yet still charged you for, and because they didn't fix it they are suing you for them living in shitty conditions? 25k is a lot to pay out, but a lawyer is also going to cost a fortune. In-order for them to actually sue you, they'll still be out filing costs even if the sleazy lawyer wants to deal with it.

Settling with them when they're trying to scam you makes asshats like this think they can take advantage of other landlords like myself, or i assume most others in this thread.

[b_t]

No lawyer gets rich by billing hourly.

.....what?

[JRSC00LUDE]

.....what?

Some definitely work on contingency but this part did make me laugh a bit. I know mine does pretty fucking good by what I pay her hourly hahaha

[Rocket1k78]

+2.

like I said earlier call the law society of alberta, ask to be referred to a lawyer that deals with this crap. The lawyer they refer you to should give a 30 minute free consult, and you should understand where you stand far better after that then dragging this thread out for the next 6 months.

Do not settle until you at least do that.

I dont think anyone in this thread is a lawyer, so our info isn't exactly worth a lot, but I dont see how they have much of a case unless you make it for them. I mean, their whole argument from one angle is you were negligent in contracting them to fix the mold issue that they then fucked up fixing properly and yet still charged you for, and because they didn't fix it they are suing you for them living in shitty conditions? 25k is a lot to pay out, but a lawyer is also going to cost a fortune. In-order for them to actually sue you, they'll still be out filing costs even if the sleazy lawyer wants to deal with it.

Settling with them when they're trying to scam you makes asshats like this think they can take advantage of other landlords like myself, or i assume most others in this thread.

Agreed, you need to stop posting and talk to a lawyer asap. You have to keep in mind the court systems favor heavily toward the tenants so you need some professional advice on this. DO NOT SETTLE UNLESS YOUR LAWYER SAYS SO

[cidley69]

I'm seeking a lawyer now. I've tried AB Law Society, steady busy signal for hours. Will call a few from google next.

Was hoping one of the many landlords on here would have a lawyer they'd recommend.......

[revelations]

If the threatening BS letter wasn't even sent via registered mail, I wouldn't even bother talking to a lawyer until an actual subpoena was served. Youre just wasting your time at this point for something that will likely amount to n

Hell, there is nothing to prove that you actually GOT the letter and didn't just throw it out with the recycling by accident.

[cidley69]

Letter was hand delivered to my wife, at our home. She didn't catch name of person that delivered it, but think they worked for the lawyers office. They were serious about it enough to at lest get that part right.