Las Vegas Mandalay Bay Mass Shooting

[spikerS]

:eek:

listen to the cops here:
https://www.broadcastify.com/listen/feed/21038/web

from reddit:
https://www.reddit.com/live/zpctrtpkt0hw/

not finding much more right now, but it is on twitter too.

https://i.imgur.com/iYySzHY.png

No counts on how many injured/dead, EMS can't even get into the area to treat the wounded.

[spikerS]

Hearing now that there are now more shooters at a second hotel, New York, New York in addition to Mandalay Bay...

WTF!

[spikerS]

Another report of another active shooter at Tropicana...

[dino_martini]

Hearing on twitter the Cosmopolitan is being evacuated. Possible reports of shooting in Fremont street. Sad to see. I love Vegas, it's my second home. Also sad to think this is the second time in like twenty four hours I've watched violence unfold via social media.

[KPHMPH]

What in the actual fuck.... scared times.

[dino_martini]

From a reporter in Vegas

[spikerS]

"one suspect down with multiple firearms" - from the scanner. taken place on the 32nd floor of the Tropicana (might have been mandalay bay, reports are coming in so fast)

Audi car bomb possible at one fo the hotels too (suspicious device)

- - - Updated - - -

reports now of shots fired at Ceasars and the Belagio...

- - - Updated - - -

another report of a shooter on floor 13 of Paris...

[spikerS]

1372 babbling brooke court, mesquite nv. address of the first suspect "down" and in custody

reports of a male walking into the employee entrance of the belagio

[spikerS]

as many as 70 injured have now arrived at the area hospitals, reports of at least 2 dead

[spikerS]

Sounds like the LVPD is considering this over now and there is no longer any more active shooters. Just the one that they took down earlier.

[Maxx Mazda]

Sheriff reporting over 100 injured, and at least 20 dead so far.

[ianmcc]

Dan Bilzerian was there and saw some girl get shot in the head.
https://twitter.com/twitter/statuses/914754103942639616

[blueToy]

Latest update over 50 killed and 200 plus injured. Incredibly sad.

http://www.smh.com.au/world/las-vegas-shooting-reports-of-active-shooter-at-mandalay-bay-casino-20171002-gysvbi.html

[nzwasp]

I'm going to vegas In 2 weeks for a work conference. Woke up to a travel alert on my phone. I wonder if conferences will cancel even though I imagine vegas will be getting extra security. Everyone expects "Terrorists" arriving by plane

[D'z Nutz]

And after things settle down, it sounds like none of the reported shootings in other areas were even true? Just Mandalay Bay and the concert. This is why I hate social media. Nobody fact checks and so much misinformation spreads so quickly. Just gotta get news out first, it doesn't need to be accurate or true.

[dirtsniffer]

biggest mass shooting in US history. RIP. Fucking tragic.

[Xtrema]

I'm going to vegas In 2 weeks for a work conference. Woke up to a travel alert on my phone. I wonder if conferences will cancel even though I imagine vegas will be getting extra security. Everyone expects "Terrorists" arriving by plane

Shooter is local. So I don't think there will be any travel bans.

And if you like to play the odds, it's always safest for a city after an incident like this because everyone is on full alert.

I was supposed to be at storage conference there last night but a spot on AMG academy opened up and I decided to be out here at Laguna Seca instead.

[Tik-Tok]

Dan Bilzerian was there and saw some girl get shot in the head.
https://twitter.com/twitter/statuses/914754103942639616

Mass shooting going on, and he thinks it's a good idea to go grab his gun and head back? Thats a good idea. Definitely wouldn't instill more panic.

[Thaco]

Mass shooting going on, and he thinks it's a good idea to go grab his gun and head back? Thats a good idea. Definitely wouldn't instill more panic.

Haha yeah no shit, good way to get yourself shot by police or other civs....

[sexualbanana]

Mass shooting going on, and he thinks it's a good idea to go grab his gun and head back? Thats a good idea. Definitely wouldn't instill more panic.

And because you know he's probably in a sober and sound state of mind...

[ExtraSlow]

Can a mod fix the title to reflect current situation? Certainly no longer LIVE NOW.

[Swank]

Just got back from Vegas on Saturday, so freaky to hear about this when the trip memories are so fresh.

[Gestalt]

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2015/oct/05/viral-image/fact-checking-comparison-gun-deaths-and-terrorism-/

[NissanFanBoy]

Fucking refugees... Knew it. Oh wait. ...

[Kobe]

This hits pretty hard since I lived in Vegas for awhile just went onto Facebook to see the first 4 or 5 posts showing marked as same and one friend who was at the concert..

Just no other words, Wow...

[dj_patm]

Crazy.

150+ gun deaths in the last 72 hours in the US. Crazy part?

That's not even a record.

[HuMz]

Fucking refugees... Knew it. Oh wait. ...

That was yesterday.

[NissanFanBoy]

That was yesterday.

Ya I guess we're just talking about regular run of the mill small dick white guys who love guns today, my bad.

[dj_patm]

Wouldn't be surprised if this was just some sick fuck who got bored of shooting at paper targets.

How you can legally go buy a weapon like that is just unbelievable to me. Why the fuck do you need that kind of fire power.

The states are such a fucked up place.

[Tik-Tok]

How you can legally go buy a weapon like that is just unbelievable to me. Why the fuck do you need that kind of fire power.


Something something bear arms something something Queen of England in your face.

[adam c]

Wouldn't be surprised if this was just some sick fuck who got bored of shooting at paper targets.

How you can legally go buy a weapon like that is just unbelievable to me. Why the fuck do you need that kind of fire power.

The states are such a fucked up place.

I was talking to a coworker, he has a friend in Arizona who has RPG's, legally... and he goes out into the desert and shoots them

[HuMz]

Ya I guess we're just talking about regular run of the mill small dick white guys who love guns today, my bad.



Just pointing out that your attempt at sarcasm failed. Likewise with this most recent comment, in that "white people who love guns" go out and kill hundreds of people is far from "run of the mill".

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Wouldn't be surprised if this was just some sick fuck who got bored of shooting at paper targets.

How you can legally go buy a weapon like that is just unbelievable to me. Why the fuck do you need that kind of fire power.

The states are such a fucked up place.

Where was it determined that his gun was bought legally? The videos sure sound like an automatic, which would almost guarantee it to be illegal.

[NissanFanBoy]

Just pointing out that your attempt at sarcasm failed. Likewise with this most recent comment, in that "white people who love guns" go out and kill hundreds of people is far from "run of the mill".

- - - Updated - - -



Where was it determined that his gun was bought legally? The videos sure sound like an automatic, which would almost guarantee it to be illegal.

I'm white too so obviously I don't believe all white men are psychos.

I do, however, believe that guns as a hobby is fucking retarded.

[revelations]

How does a older person with no criminal history, go to barricading themselves in a high rise hotel surrounded by weapons and ammo, and then snipe away at civilians below ?

I mean, if someone was 24 and snapped....it happens..... but at 64 you have seen enough in life to not be too surprised.

Wonder what the suicide note will read.

[JRSC00LUDE]

Fucking refugees... Knew it. Oh wait. ...

And the award for most boring comment goes to...... :zzz:

[Sugarphreak]

...

[ZenOps]

I'm waiting for them to find the ISIS flag and manifesto.

[dj_patm]

A lot of people say that about cars as a hobby too... or sky diving, or rock climbing, or really anything they are not into

Luckily we still live in a world where we have the freedom to have hobbies not everybody approves of

At the end of the day guns, or knives, or even U-Haul trucks don't kill people. People kill people, so maybe we ought to start focusing on identifying and stopping them, no matter what ethnicity, religion, or motive they happen to have.

This scorecard nonsense of terrorists vs deranged lone gunman killings to try and exonerate the other is getting kind of old.

Except for when those hobbies involve machines with the sole purpose of ending lives....

I'm cool with hunting rifles and small firearms that could be legitimately argued as useful for hunting or protection in a calamity. Anything else is just stupid and unnecessary.

[Mitsu3000gt]

Wouldn't be surprised if this was just some sick fuck who got bored of shooting at paper targets.

How you can legally go buy a weapon like that is just unbelievable to me. Why the fuck do you need that kind of fire power.

The states are such a fucked up place.

Where did you read he got the guns legally? I haven't seen that in any of the correspondence. I watched a couple of the videos and the shots very much sounded fully automatic, which would make them very illegal.

His brother said he didn't even think he owned guns, was not a "gun guy", and did not bring any guns with him when he moved to Nevada.

His dad was diagnosed as a Psychopath in the 60's and was on a FBI most wanted list for bank robbery. His neighbor said he was a weird, secretive guy and "professional gambler".

He placed some bets in the tens of thousands beforehand as well, but it wasn't mentioned if that was normal for him or if he won or lost.

Buying things capable of huge amounts of damage are all around us. You could make a similar argument that nobody needs a car with more than 100HP or over a certain weight. Anyone can go buy or rent a vehicle capable of greater casualties and they don't even do a background check. The only common factor is the deranged/sick/disturbed person carrying out the act - there will always be a way to do it and that is the sad reality. Imagine if they had banned vehicles in Nice in 2016 after someone caused far more damage than this guy did with a rented truck.

It's surprising that there was no elevated security in the surrounding hotels and area with that big of an event (22,000 people) happening outdoors. You'd think those major hotels would have things like metal detectors already with the amount of people losing all their money in their casinos.


Except for when those hobbies involve machines with the sole purpose of ending lives....

I'm cool with hunting rifles and small firearms that could be legitimately argued as useful for hunting or protection in a calamity. Anything else is just stupid and unnecessary.

Where do you decide the line? When does it become unnecessary? We don't need 600HP cars either, but people like to drive them on closed course race tracks. I don't see how using a firearm responsibly and in a designated area to shoot paper targets has anything to do with ending lives. You can choose to use it for harm, just like anything else.

[NissanFanBoy]

Except for when those hobbies involve machines with the sole purpose of ending lives....

I'm cool with hunting rifles and small firearms that could be legitimately argued as useful for hunting or protection in a calamity. Anything else is just stupid and unnecessary.

Agreed... I know it's all a dead horse which is why I don't usually comment on these but come on... As far as I know, bomb making as a hobby is illegal, so why is owning over the top guns legal.

[ZenOps]

I'd like to know if he did any gambling before his rampage.

[HiTempguy1]

You guys are all so cute in your naivety.

Guns are practically banned in Canada (yes, you can have guns, I know plenty that do, but it really isn't worth owning one IMO especially with our awful self defence laws).

Cars are certainly next on the list. With the advent of electric cars and over the air updates, combined with driverless cars, our toys certainly will be outlawed sooner than you think, don't kid yourselves.

[dj_patm]

I saw a few places say that it is believed the gun was purchased legally.

Mentioned here: http://www.cnn.com/2017/10/02/us/las-vegas-attack-stephen-paddock-trnd/index.html

Statement from the store in his hometown where he bought guns in the past (don't know if they're the same ones):


Nevada gun store owner sold gun to Las Vegas shooter
A gun store in Mesquite sold firearms to the gunman who killed at least 58 people and injured more than 515, according to Guns & Guitars, Inc's general manager, Christopher M Sullivan.

The shooter, 64-year-old Stephen Paddock, lived in a retirement community for people aged 55 and over in Mesquite, Nevada.

Police found 10 rifles inside Paddock's hotel room, Las Vegas Police Department Sheriff Joseph Lombardo said on Monday.

Here's what the Guns & Guitars owner said in a statement:

"We mourn for this tragedy and our thoughts and prayers are with the families of the lost and injured. Mr. Paddock was a customer and purchased firearms from our store; however, all necessary background checks and procedures were followed, as required by local, state, and federal law. He never gave any indication or reason to believe he was unstable or unfit at any time. We are currently cooperating with the ongoing investigation by local and federal law enforcement in any way we can."

[Mitsu3000gt]

especially with our awful self defence laws).
.

Our self defense laws are pretty normal, to the best of my understanding. If you shoot an intruder in your home and they aren't alive to say otherwise, you probably aren't going to get punished. The important part is believing that your life was in imminent danger and portraying that to the authorities. There are some stories where intruders get injured in break-ins and the homeowner gets into more trouble, but I think those are few and far between (though extremely ridiculous). We don't have anything quite as extreme as some places in the USA though, I forget which one is the more extreme between Castle Law and Stand Your Ground. I believe the grey area here is that you aren't supposed to use any more force than necessary, but that is wildly ambiguous and I have no idea how anyone determines that when they are in danger.

[Disoblige]

:facepalm:


CBS Corp. fired a vice president in business affairs Monday for comments she made on social media regarding the mass shooting at a country music festival in Las Vegas.

Hayley Geftman-Gold, wrote on her Facebook page that she was not sympathetic to victims of the shooting because, she claimed, most country music fans are Republican.

http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-las-vegas-shooting-live-updates-cbs-fires-executive-for-deeply-1506969657-htmlstory.html

https://everipedia-storage.s3-accelerate.amazonaws.com/ProfilePics/hayley-geftman-gold__71978_100x100.png
http://cdn0.thetruthaboutguns.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/Facebook-page-Hayley-Geftman-Gold-337x600.jpg

[HiTempguy1]

between Castle Law and Stand Your Ground

Either or is good enough. It is your property, nobody should be allowed on it without your permission. I truly do believe that without permission to be on someone's property, it is reasonable to assume your life is in danger, or else why would the person be there (hint, they'd have permission to be there and therefore, the assumption of your life being in danger wouldn't apply).

One of the few things I think the USA gets absolutely correct. No matter the laws, the reality is possession is 9/10ths of the law. You should be able to respond accordingly.

[dj_patm]

How did a LAWYER (a senior one that works in communications) think that it would be okay to post that.

[Gestalt]

How did a LAWYER (a senior one that works in communications) think that it would be okay to post that.

Mail order degree

[Gestalt]

Agreed... I know it's all a dead horse which is why I don't usually comment on these but come on... As far as I know, bomb making as a hobby is illegal, so why is owning over the top guns legal.yo
Haha. Guns are stupid. No doubt. But i still own some. Its stange. I think its more being told yu cant do something, limiting freddom. At the gun club who doesnt like blasting stuff. Like every guy in there my penis gains an inch. Dont take our penises away as lawful respectful citizens because of crazy people.

He could have killed just as many with a truck.

[FraserB]

Agreed... I know it's all a dead horse which is why I don't usually comment on these but come on... As far as I know, bomb making as a hobby is illegal, so why is owning over the top guns legal.

I want to know what an “over the top gun” is, especially when an AR-15 is functionally identical to a lot of “hunting” rifles

All the talk of “how can the guns he used be legal to own” is pointless since they haven’t even released that info

[ercchry]

Can’t you own basically anything in Nevada? Isn’t that why everyone loves the range down there? Only state with more lax laws being Arizona?

[Buster]

/looks for hotel deals.

[Gman.45]

Wouldn't be surprised if this was just some sick fuck who got bored of shooting at paper targets.

How you can legally go buy a weapon like that is just unbelievable to me. Why the fuck do you need that kind of fire power.

The states are such a fucked up place.


snip, guns are basically banned in Canada

News flash - anyone here could do essentially the same thing with the firearms Canadians can legally own. Our magazine laws and the functionality of high capacity magazines such as 60 and 90 round AR/AK drums are such that a pop rivet that makes them "legal" can be removed in less time that it takes me to type this sentence. So far as "full auto", in this sort of shooting where the shooter is just using a technique called "fire beaten zone", not aiming at specific targets, but using a large volume of direct yet unaimed fire to put rounds into a large cluster of targets, it's about the ONLY time where full auto is actually more effective than aimed semi/single rounds with a shoulder supported rifle/carbine. Converting an AR or AK is a simple matter, with the right parts kit for the fire control group, a mill/drill press, some brains, and a few other legal parts (full auto bolt carrier group for the AR 15)...there are also LEGAL things such as bump/slide fire stocks in the USA which allow LEGAL full auto fire (sort of, but it's still 9 to 10 rounds per second) on a stock semi auto rifle without any NFA issues.

Hearing the rate of fire, I'll wager this is exactly what this active shooter used, as it was slower, sporadic and inconsistent from what I heard on the video. An AR15 available at Walmart, a few thousand rounds, a couple dozen drums/magazines, and a 300$ slide fire stock. That's it, all legal and attainable by anyone without a felony/weapons ban in America.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvLt8-Wf7r0

I heard some 9 and 10 second long bursts which means he was using drum magazines, again, easily available for the AR/AK rifles in the USA in 60, 90, and larger capacities in the USA.

[sexualbanana]

At the gun club who doesnt like blasting stuff. Like every guy in there my penis gains an inch. Dont take our penises away as lawful respectful citizens because of crazy people.

He could have killed just as many with a truck.

It's called an erection, Gestalt. If you get those around a bunch of guys at the gun club, that would mean you're aroused.

The fact of the matter is, your (I'm talking about gun people) crazies are killing people by the 10's and injuring 100's at a time. To go back to an oft-cited example: one crazy asshole tries to sneak a bomb on a plane hidden in his shoe, and now everyone has to take off their shoes for scanning at the airport. 1 crazy asshole a week opens fire in a crowd, and it's "we have to protect our gun rights!"

[NissanFanBoy]

Problem is is if the government tried to take them all away there'd be an all out war and some of these people have more firepower in their homes than the cops/army. Quite a fucked up country.

[jutes]

Problem is is if the government tried to take them all away there'd be an all out war and some of these people have more firepower in their homes than the cops/army. Quite a fucked up country.

What about ban the sale of ammunition? let people keep their guns, probably easier to just limit ammo sales.

[AndyL]

How does a older person with no criminal history, go to barricading themselves in a high rise hotel surrounded by weapons and ammo, and then snipe away at civilians below ?

I mean, if someone was 24 and snapped....it happens..... but at 64 you have seen enough in life to not be too surprised.

Wonder what the suicide note will read.

Dementia is a wonderful thing... 64 also puts him into that Vietnam veteran age range (?)

But his father was one of America's most wanted and was described as a psychopath with suicidal tendencies...

[Gestalt]

It's called an erection, Gestalt. If you get those around a bunch of guys at the gun club, that would mean you're aroused.

The fact of the matter is, your (I'm talking about gun people) crazies are killing people by the 10's and injuring 100's at a time. To go back to an oft-cited example: one crazy asshole tries to sneak a bomb on a plane hidden in his shoe, and now everyone has to take off their shoes for scanning at the airport. 1 crazy asshole a week opens fire in a crowd, and it's "we have to protect our gun rights!"

Its a rush Like driving a fast car, sky diving, its all just as pointless but a harmless testosterone boost. No matter how much fun you killjoys want to ban, people will always find a reason to kill each other

[blitz]

He could have killed just as many with a truck.

No, he couldn’t have.

[Gestalt]

No, he couldn’t have.

Would have killed more plowing into massive crowds on the strip. 86 were killed in france if you rememeber.

[Sentry]

Ever been to Vegas? The densest areas of the strip have sidewalks elevated above traffic level with huge concrete barriers, all connected by bridges. Pedestrians and cars have no chance of interaction. Chiefly to prevent drunk fat asses from stumbling into traffic, but would also prevent a runaway truck attack.

[03ozwhip]

Would have killed more plowing into massive crowds on the strip. 86 were killed in france if you rememeber.
It's been tried and failed. https://www.google.ca/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2015/12/21/us/las-vegas-strip-pedestrians-hit/index.html
not without one person dead and a bunch injured, but it's nothing like being able to have an automatic shooting at basically fish in a barrel.

[lilmira]

why is kinder surprise banned in the states again?

[HuMz]

It was interesting to note the double standard amongst progressives the last coupled days. In the wake of Edmonton (as with many other radical islamic terrorist attacks, or shooting's that don't fit their narrative), people on the left our all about "unity", "love", and "standing up to hate". Their representatives essentially tell us that this is all part in parcel of living in a bit city and we just have to get used to this, some even go as far as to point the finger at "us" the people for the playing a role with this hate. However, there is no call to action against our leaders, or scrutinizing our current laws or asking questions. Yet within an hour of this Vegas shooting (and others that fit their narrative), these same people could care less about "standing together" or "unity", "standing up against hate". It was all about a call to action immediately, as if there was this magic solution that was sitting right there if only they would do it.

[rx7boi]

/looks for hotel deals.

I like the way you think man, I was wanting to go to Vegas sometime in January :rofl:

[kertejud2]

Well, it's been making the rounds again so...

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DLJz2D8UQAAs38k.jpg

[HuMz]

Well, it's been making the rounds again so...

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DLJz2D8UQAAs38k.jpg


If Americans had the constitutional right to an abortion, in the same way that they had a constitutional right to own a gun, then this could be an accurate comparison. But they don't, so...

[Mitsu3000gt]

It's been tried and failed. https://www.google.ca/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2015/12/21/us/las-vegas-strip-pedestrians-hit/index.html
not without one person dead and a bunch injured, but it's nothing like being able to have an automatic shooting at basically fish in a barrel.

Obviously it's going to depend on the venue. Using a truck on a busy street versus a contained venue with barriers is very different, but past events have shown that vehicles can be considerably more harmful than what this guy could do in pretty much an ideal shooting scenario. Different things are going to be more and less effective depending on the specific situation, landscape, etc. The fact of the matter is that a wide variety of easily accessible items can be used to cause enormous harm, the only constant is the mentally unstable person doing it. Look what a few box cutters did in 2001, or what vehicles or pressure cookers have done in different scenarios.

With all that firepower, an elevated position, the cover of darkness, thousands of rounds, and about an hour(?) of uninterrupted shooting at what was basically a 'fish in a barrel' situation, he only managed to kill around 0.02% of his targets. As horrible as it was, it was also incredibly ineffective even with all the huge advantages he had. You had a 99.8% chance of surviving his cowardly attack as an attendee.

[D'z Nutz]

/looks for hotel deals.


I like the way you think man, I was wanting to go to Vegas sometime in January :rofl:

Haha I'm going to Vegas in a couple weeks and the airlines are offering free cancellations in the wake of the shooting. The thought crossed my mine to cancel and rebook at a cheaper rate :rofl:

[kertejud2]

If Americans had the constitutional right to an abortion, in the same way that they had a constitutional right to own a gun, then this could be an accurate comparison. But they don't, so...

Well they have the fundamental right under the constitution, so...

[ZenOps]

Freedom to arm yourself with as much as you can and blow shit up, true in the USA and North Korea.

XZ-EOg38t1o

Save the forest, kill the trees.

[dj_patm]

1 crazy asshole a week opens fire in a crowd, and it's "we have to protect our gun rights!"

Funny that owning Guns down there is a right but health care? Nah.

Pretty much all you need to know about the Republican psyche.

[Tik-Tok]

Funny that owning Guns down there is a right but health care? Nah.

Pretty much all you need to know about the Republican psyche.

Why should I have to pay for their medical bills? Serves 'em right for getting shot in the first place! Now excuse me while I dedicate someone else's golf trophy to the victims of this tragedy.

[ZenOps]

Really though, if you jump out of an airplane without a parachute whos fault is it? If you attend a country music festival in the USA without a flak jacket, whos fault is it?

Freedom bullets.

[HuMz]

Well they have the fundamental right under the constitution, so...

I didn't say that they didn't have a fundamental right to an abortion. I said that they don't have the constitutional right to an abortion, IN THE SAME way that they have a constitutional right to own firearms.

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Funny that owning Guns down there is a right but health care? Nah.

Pretty much all you need to know about the Republican psyche.

Yeah let's just ignore the fact that they have a constitutional right to own firearms, and pretend one exists for forcing one to pay for others healthcare.

[ZenOps]

Seems that he may have mixed up a large batch of ammonium nitrate. Serious pre-meditation there, man on a mission.

[rx7boi]

Haha I'm going to Vegas in a couple weeks and the airlines are offering free cancellations in the wake of the shooting. The thought crossed my mine to cancel and rebook at a cheaper rate :rofl:

Noice! Where ya staying? I checked prices briefly for January and Monte Carlo was $571 for 5 days.

[kertejud2]

I didn't say that they didn't have a fundamental right to an abortion. I said that they don't have the constitutional right to an abortion, IN THE SAME way that they have a constitutional right to own firearms.

No they don't have it IN THE SAME way, but they have it nonetheless. There's a reason a state can't just ban abortions because it wants to and instead need to resort to limiting the availability and the ease of getting one to restrict them as much as possible.



So what I'm saying is that what you said is meaningless.

[riander5]

I didn't say that they didn't have a fundamental right to an abortion. I said that they don't have the constitutional right to an abortion, IN THE SAME way that they have a constitutional right to own firearms.

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Yeah let's just ignore the fact that they have a constitutional right to own firearms, and pretend one exists for forcing one to pay for others healthcare.

He wasn't debating their constitutional rights, just common sense. Who gives a fuck about their constitution. The point is that their society is ass backwards when its easier to buy an automatic weapon and mow down a crowd of people than going to the hospital and getting a broken leg fixed if you don't have private healthcare.

Their constitution was written over 200 years ago, it needs to be completely reformed. End of story, take your dumbass debates somewhere else.

[NissanFanBoy]

The point is why go through all that trouble when you can just use guns that are so easy to buy... It you use a van you rush losing a tire, crashing into something, getting shot, etc. The whole point is that it's fucking easy to kill people and it's efficient, and on top of that, the government practically begs you to buy them.

[98type_r]

why is kinder surprise banned in the states again?

Some law about non-functional materials inside food. A stick for lollipop is ok, toys inside food are not.

[Mitsu3000gt]

The point is why go through all that trouble when you can just use guns that are so easy to buy... It you use a van you rush losing a tire, crashing into something, getting shot, etc. The whole point is that it's fucking easy to kill people and it's efficient, and on top of that, the government practically begs you to buy them.

Automatic weapons are not easy to buy - his were either highly modified or illegally obtained, both which requires a lot of effort. Also all those same risks you list about a van would apply to a firearm (it could jam, malfunction, you could get shot, etc.) never mind the fact that there is a lot of skill involved in using it effectively, where there isn't really for a vehicle. It's not really going to any trouble to rent a vehicle either. See my previous explanation, but his attack was *incredibly* inefficient. Absolutely horrible in fact. Given the advantages he had with all that firepower, positioning, etc. the death toll was extremely low. It's also not easy at all to kill people, 99.8% of people survived his 'fish in a barrel' attack in which he had every advantage, 20+ firearms, thousands of rounds, the cover of darkness, and about an hour of uninterrupted shooting. For something that is supposedly so effective at killing, he sure did a good job of showing the opposite.

[dj_patm]

I didn't say that they didn't have a fundamental right to an abortion. I said that they don't have the constitutional right to an abortion, IN THE SAME way that they have a constitutional right to own firearms.

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Yeah let's just ignore the fact that they have a constitutional right to own firearms, and pretend one exists for forcing one to pay for others healthcare.

Constitutions can be Amended. Do I have to quote Jim Jefferies and remind you that the reason they have the constitutional right to own firearms is cause of an Amendment?

And I'm saying the fact that they're so crazy about keeping that amendment about gun ownership yet they're so against "paying for others healthcare" tells you all you need to know about how fucked up that group is.

[HiTempguy1]

both which requires a lot of effort

Well... I wouldn't go that far. My understanding is it is quite doable for most people to do the conversions themselves. Even then, as many articles have mentioned, full auto is basically useless when you can skip 80% of the difficulty to converting to full auto and still get 9 or 10 round burst weapons. I don't think a 9 or 10 round burst versus full on spray and pray would have made a lick of a difference.

And as a bit of a segue, I bet Catalonians would love to have the right to bear arms enshrined in the constitution right now. Gun rights, when properly viewed, are to prevent terrorism of the state against its own population. Most Canadians don't really understand that, but lots of us weren't around when marshal law was enacted during the October crisis. That's pretty scary shit, you basically go from our (fake, ignorant) democracy to zero rights in no time.

It amuses me how naive people are. At the end of the day, you need to protect yourself. When the rubber meets the road, you can only rely on yourself. And that is why the USA has a LOT of society done right. It just so happens, to actually be free, there are sacrifices that are made.

Somebody posted an article on facebook comparing gun violence in America to gun violence in Japan. Well, per capita, Japan has triple the suicide rate of the USA, and overall more people die by suicide in Japan in a year than the overall amount of people who die by gun violence (LARGELY by gang-on-gang violence, the horror, my heart bleeds for them) in the USA.

[dj_patm]

It was interesting to note the double standard amongst progressives the last coupled days. In the wake of Edmonton (as with many other radical islamic terrorist attacks, or shooting's that don't fit their narrative), people on the left our all about "unity", "love", and "standing up to hate". Their representatives essentially tell us that this is all part in parcel of living in a bit city and we just have to get used to this, some even go as far as to point the finger at "us" the people for the playing a role with this hate. However, there is no call to action against our leaders, or scrutinizing our current laws or asking questions. Yet within an hour of this Vegas shooting (and others that fit their narrative), these same people could care less about "standing together" or "unity", "standing up against hate". It was all about a call to action immediately, as if there was this magic solution that was sitting right there if only they would do it.

Because the proposed solutions to one incident involves trying to discriminate people by religion and skin color and breeds unwarranted hate while the other one is simply suggesting maybe you should sell people less guns or at least less deadly and efficient guns ....

[HuMz]

No they don't have it IN THE SAME way, but they have it nonetheless. There's a reason a state can't just ban abortions because it wants to and instead need to resort to limiting the availability and the ease of getting one to restrict them as much as possible.



So what I'm saying is that what you said is meaningless.

I think the differences do matter, because the constitutional right to abortion, wasn't explicitly mentioned or intended in it's creation of the 14th amendment. This "right" was created in the 70's by seven judges who found a way to allow a right to an abortion based on their superseding principles of privacy. Many legal experts would argue that Roe Vs. Wade was unconstitutional, and will probably continue do so. However, in terms of your example, the reason why its not an accurate comparison is because the very nature of the abortion law, allows infringements in regards to fetal viability.

So when you post an illustration that tries to show infringements upon abortion, like waiting periods, ultra sounds, parental permission etc......These are mostly standard medical procedures that are fully necessary and within abortion law, not infringements. Abortion clinics don't ultrasound their patients, have a bunch of paperwork with a waiting period, get parental permission, make them watch a video and get a doctors note because they want to restrict their patients. They do it because they are about to perform a surgical procedure that can carry serious risks with it, like they would do with any other medical procedure. They also need to determine how far along a woman is, to make sure they are upholding the abortion law, not infringing upon it.

[HuMz]

He wasn't debating their constitutional rights, just common sense. Who gives a fuck about their constitution. The point is that their society is ass backwards when its easier to buy an automatic weapon and mow down a crowd of people than going to the hospital and getting a broken leg fixed if you don't have private healthcare.

Their constitution was written over 200 years ago, it needs to be completely reformed. End of story, take your dumbass debates somewhere else.

At that is what makes it extremely difficult for Canadians to discuss American politics. While you certainty don't care about the constitution, it is the foundation to which all legal matters are to be dealt with. Not only that but their leaders must pledge to uphold it. Your also completely incorrect to suggest that its easier to buy a automatic weapon then to go to the hospital and get a broken leg.

[Mitsu3000gt]

Well... I wouldn't go that far. My understanding is it is quite doable for most people to do the conversions themselves.

That may be true, but in the context of it being less effort than renting a vehicle, I don't think it's easier. You need parts, the skill, and the know how to do a conversion. Anyone can rent a vehicle in 5 minutes. Whatever he did, it was extremely ineffective, and whether that was due to his skill level or other hardware issues or something else we will probably never know.

[HuMz]

Because the proposed solutions to one incident involves trying to discriminate people by religion and skin color and breeds unwarranted hate while the other one is simply suggesting maybe you should sell people less guns or at least less deadly and efficient guns ....


This terrorist came to this country, and expressed radical islamic beliefs for years. Why is it hateful to ask how these views weren't caught during his immigration process or what more could have been done after he expressed his radical beliefs?

It seems rather obvious that we should discriminate against those who want to this country who not only don't want to partake in our way of life, but instead are intent on destroying it. I'm open to hearing how you view this all as hateful, and see it as discriminating on the basis of a whole religion or skin color?

[kertejud2]

I think the differences do matter, because the constitutional right to abortion, wasn't explicitly mentioned or intended in it's creation of the 14th amendment. This "right" was created in the 70's by seven judges who found a way to allow a right to an abortion based on their superseding principles of privacy. Many legal experts would argue that Roe Vs. Wade was unconstitutional, and will probably continue do so. However, in terms of your example, the reason why its not an accurate comparison is because the very nature of the abortion law, allows infringements in regards to fetal viability.

So when you post an illustration that tries to show infringements upon abortion, like waiting periods, ultra sounds, parental permission etc......These are mostly standard medical procedures that are fully necessary and within abortion law, not infringements. Abortion clinics don't ultrasound their patients, have a bunch of paperwork with a waiting period, get parental permission, make them watch a video and get a doctors note because they want to restrict their patients. They do it because they are about to perform a surgical procedure that can carry serious risks with it, like they would do with any other medical procedure. They also need to determine how far along a woman is, to make sure they are upholding the abortion law, not infringing upon it.

Then you can put similar roadblocks in place to prevent people from owning guns. It's not about infringing upon their rights to own them, it's for a bunch of other bullshit you can sell it on when in reality it's purposefully designed to make it as hard and undesirable to have one.

[HiTempguy1]

That may be true, but in the context of it being less effort than renting a vehicle, I don't think it's easier. You need parts, the skill, and the know how to do a conversion. Anyone can rent a vehicle in 5 minutes. Whatever he did, it was extremely ineffective, and whether that was due to his skill level or other hardware issues or something else we will probably never know.

I don't disagree.

What I will say though, is that running over that many people would be quite difficult in my non-expert, non-anything opinion. I drive a lot. Vehicles are easy to dodge as their range of motion is limited at the speeds you would need to impact people at.

So you would basically have to find a large crowd of people on a street. THAT would be tough. The guy obviously planned this crap out, its disgusting. But the only way he could have done more damage as a single individual would have been with bombs. I guess he could have lobbed grenades.

Makes me sick just thinking about it :( What would drive a person to do that? This was premeditated, but in a big way. Its not like he walked into a building of people he had a problem with... jesus.

[Gman.45]

Well... I wouldn't go that far. My understanding is it is quite doable for most people to do the conversions themselves. Even then, as many articles have mentioned, full auto is basically useless when you can skip 80% of the difficulty to converting to full auto and still get 9 or 10 round burst weapons. I don't think a 9 or 10 round burst versus full on spray and pray would have made a lick of a difference.

And as a bit of a segue, I bet Catalonians would love to have the right to bear arms enshrined in the constitution right now. Gun rights, when properly viewed, are to prevent terrorism of the state against its own population. Most Canadians don't really understand that, but lots of us weren't around when marshal law was enacted during the October crisis. That's pretty scary shit, you basically go from our (fake, ignorant) democracy to zero rights in no time.

It amuses me how naive people are. At the end of the day, you need to protect yourself. When the rubber meets the road, you can only rely on yourself. And that is why the USA has a LOT of society done right. It just so happens, to actually be free, there are sacrifices that are made.

Somebody posted an article on facebook comparing gun violence in America to gun violence in Japan. Well, per capita, Japan has triple the suicide rate of the USA, and overall more people die by suicide in Japan in a year than the overall amount of people who die by gun violence (LARGELY by gang-on-gang violence, the horror, my heart bleeds for them) in the USA.

Agreed.

Since it keeps coming up, I'll explain again - you do NOT need any special gunsmith skills to convert an AR or AK rifle to full auto. An AR rifle, you can get the jig off Ebay (in Canada or the USA), the lower F/A parts kit (legal, here and the USA, just not legal to install in Canada), and the full auto bolt carrier group (typically is in most AR 15s from the factory anyway these days as they are heavier and have better functionality over the dedicated semi auto versions of yore). A 150$ drill press, the jib, the internet, and ta da. For legal reasons, I'll just say it's a very simple number of operations with a drill press, then remove old fire control parts, install new FA ones (2 minutes tops), and ta da, full auto. AGAIN, this isn't even necessary, as per the video in my last post, and as per the audio clips from the shooting, is 99% likely this guy just used one of the many bump/slide fire stocks, which makes a semi auto AR15 shoot 10 or more rounds per second while holding the trigger down, replicating full auto fire, even though technically the rifle is still only semi auto without that goofy stock on it, which uses physics and recoil to affect the firing mechanism of the rifle, and keeps it firing while holding down that trigger.

Also, limited ammunition - it's simple to manufacturer your own, even if they banned power and primers, same thing, we can't legislate our way out of this problem. Gun ban would = civil war in the USA, and at the very least a political nightmare even up here if Ottawa tried that. Short of a outright firearms ban, no law will keep you or the public "safe". A good deer rifle with a decent optic, this guy could have caused even MORE fatalities, albeit less wounded, due to the very close range - 600 feet - making kill shots a virtually certainly with every press of the trigger, even for an amateur, which he wasn't, he was an avid hunter in Alaska.

[HuMz]

Constitutions can be Amended. Do I have to quote Jim Jefferies and remind you that the reason they have the constitutional right to own firearms is cause of an Amendment?

And I'm saying the fact that they're so crazy about keeping that amendment about gun ownership yet they're so against "paying for others healthcare" tells you all you need to know about how fucked up that group is.


Absolutely, and that is why democrats should stop trying to dance around the issue, and instead go after the 2nd amendment. Until then, expect alot more Americans to care about their right to own firearms, then they do paying for someone else's healthcare. I also think its unfair to paint the healthcare issue, as one that is primarily based on a selfishness of not wanting to pay for others. There are many aspects to the healthcare debate, whether its a single payer system, mixed system, private or insurance involvment etc, and people can be against certain health care systems that the democrats are proposing, because they generally think it will do more harm than good.

[msommers]

why is kinder surprise banned in the states again?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q4WnmfOfirM

[dj_patm]

This terrorist came to this country, and expressed radical islamic beliefs for years. Why is it hateful to ask how these views weren't caught during his immigration process or what more could have been done after he expressed his radical beliefs?

It seems rather obvious that we should discriminate against those who want to this country who not only don't want to partake in our way of life, but instead are intent on destroying it. I'm open to hearing how you view this all as hateful, and see it as discriminating on the basis of a whole religion or skin color?

Oh definitely, it should have been caught and it's a failure that it wasn't but you also have to keep in mind there is only so much they can do before you get into some sketchy areas. Should you be locked in jail based on your browsing history? For how long? What can and can't you visit?

[HuMz]

Also, limited ammunition - it's simple to manufacturer your own, even if they banned power and primers, same thing, we can't legislate our way out of this problem. Gun ban would = civil war in the USA, and at the very least a political nightmare even up here if Ottawa tried that. Short of a outright firearms ban, no law will keep you or the public "safe".

This is what it comes down to, and I think it's also important to note that while a firearms ban may severely restrict gun deaths, it probably won't reduce overall crime or murder. So while it may make others feel safer, I haven't seen any evidence that it will actually make people safer. I don't see why if many westerners have come to accept that Islamic terrorism is now apart of our way of life, they can't apply that same acceptance to the idea of allowing gun deaths as a result of gun ownership.

[HuMz]

Oh definitely, it should have been caught and it's a failure that it wasn't but you also have to keep in mind there is only so much they can do before you get into some sketchy areas. Should you be locked in jail based on your browsing history? For how long? What can and can't you visit?

You acknowledge their was a failure in catching this terrorist. So in asking questions about how or if this can be prevented in the future, what about that is discriminatory or hateful?

- - - Updated - - -



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q4WnmfOfirM

How is this any different that all of the progressives who have come out after terrorist attacks to suggest that there is nothing that can be done, and that this is part of living in society that has a relatively open immigration system?

[austic]

‘No Way To Prevent This,’ Says Only Nation Where This Regularly Happens...

[HuMz]

They can certainly try, my only point was to show that I didn't think that was an accurate illustration. They can try and pass restrictions to make it more inconvenient for owners to purchase guns, and while that may slow down the supply side of things a tad, people will still buy guns, with over 300000000 guns already in the hands of most Americans, I haven't seen any evidence that this would have any measurable effect.

[HuMz]

‘No Way To Prevent This,’ Says Only Nation Where This Regularly Happens...

What is this painfully obvious solution that every media anchor and late night show host can see, that would have prevented this?