Threshold Braking vs ABS

[RealJimmyJames]

just did the trek from Coventry down to southcenter mall area, and back. Going south on Deerfoot wasn't bad, was doing 100 in the fast lane, most people in the middle lane were doing 70-80. On the way back though, had to go quite a bit slower, the slightest throttle input was making the truck step out, especially over the calf robe. Was pretty much cruising at 55-60. touch the brakes and ABS kicked on, put my threshold breaking skills to the test for sure and left lots of room.

KA02 performance today wasn't very good on the roads, Gonna have to put on the studded winters sooner than I was hoping to.you are threshold braking in a vehicle with abs?

[spikerS]

you are threshold braking in a vehicle with abs?

Yes, I do threshold braking to avoid ABS kicking on unless it is a situation that calls for emergency breaking.

[J-hop]

you are threshold braking in a vehicle with abs?

Everyone should. Relying on ABS is a crutch.


Still don’t get why people are continuing the winter tire debate. Obviously winter tires don’t replace good driving skills that is a silly arguement, but just like good brakes they complement them. A pretty freaking simple concept in my eyes :rofl:

[D'z Nutz]

Yes, I do threshold braking to avoid ABS kicking on unless it is a situation that calls for emergency breaking.


Everyone should. Relying on ABS is a crutch.

Weird. I always assumed that's how everyone did it too. I didn't even know it had a name until I looked it up just now.

[ercchry]

Have experts not tested threshold vs abs to death?!

Been proven over and over again that abs does a better job than any human ever could?

[spikerS]

Have experts not tested threshold vs abs to death?!

Been proven over and over again that abs does a better job than any human ever could?

in 99% of situations, yes, especially when steering input is still needed, but, that was never the argument here.

[J-hop]

Have experts not tested threshold vs abs to death?!

Been proven over and over again that abs does a better job than any human ever could?

Fairly certain it’s been beaten to death that threshold braking out performs ABS. Pumping the brakes does not though. I know from empirical testing stomping and relying on ABS on my car’s at least increases stopping distances over threshold.

They have stopped teaching it in drivers ed from what I know as it takes forever to master and most people are better off stomping and letting ABS figure it out.

I spent my first 5 winters in a car that didn't have ABS so that wasn’t even an option.

https://jalopnik.com/how-to-stop-on-snow-with-abs-brakes-1790269905

http://www.drivingfast.net/braking/

[HiTempguy1]

Its pretty straightforward, once a tire has lost traction and ABS has kicked in, the friction force between the tire and ground is lowered (because the tire is sliding). In order to get back to a higher friction state, the ABS must lower the braking force to a point the tire starts rolling again, which is less force than if you had simply threshold braked and never lost traction in the first place.

Having said that, this is an extremely simplistic viewpoint and there are a lot of variables. But one other thing to consider is if you hit abs engagement, what do you typically do?

You press the brake harder. As its basically impossible to know when ABS will kick in (different cars have different programming for.when and how it will kick in), again, threshold braking is superior.

The tests that show ABS is better usually is in regards to HIGH FRICTION situations. It's no different than doing software for self driving cars. High friction situations completely eliminate an incredibly important variable, which is traction. If that is taken care of (traction/friction variable is always just used at its maximum) it is easy to optimize the system for that.

Have ABS systems come a long way? Absolutely. For a lot of drivers, Im.sure they help. But they aren't the best answer.

[ianmcc]

Isn't the real purpose of ABS to maintain directional control during braking?

[ExtraSlow]

Isn't braking lightly different than true threshold braking?

[J-hop]

Isn't the real purpose of ABS to maintain directional control during braking?

Cant turn if you’re locked up so you’re right on that point but other main purpose is to keep from locking up to decrease stopping distance (vs full and continuous lockup). If you’re on a sheet of ice it’ll take days to stop if you don’t have ABS and lock it up.

- - - Updated - - -


Isn't braking lightly different than true threshold braking?

Threshold braking is taking it to the limit of traction while staying under the limit where abs kicks in. Essentially “braking lightly” in a stomp vs threshold perspective.

[Darell_n]

Threshold braking is useless on really bad roads. I recently had a bad speed sensor on my WRX and on Crowchild yesterday, the slush and snow between the lanes was fairly deep. (No ABS, traction/stability control, no hill assist) Feathering the brakes at all would send the car half a lane sideways as one side had 90% traction and the other had 1%. On my return trip, the car was back normal and the ABS let me brake as hard or as little as I wanted and the car was straight as an arrow. I was very much against ABS as a young driver but the newer driving aids are now pretty sweet. I only now hate ABS on gravel as it most definitely increasing stopping distance vs digging the tires in.

[My_name_is_Rob]

in before:

When accelerating its much easier to mash the throttle and let traction control sort it out, rather than learn how to accelerate properly. :facepalm: #millennials (?)

[Twin_Cam_Turbo]

My goals are always to drive without ABS intervention however it does happen (ie a pedestrian j walked in front of me from a dark alley last night and had to make a very quick stop). When we go out on the lake I generally pull my ABS fuse however that’s more for a competition point of view where I need to be able to left foot brake mid corner at times and use the handbrake on corner entry a lot in my car.

[Xtrema]

Threshold braking is useless on really bad roads. I recently had a bad speed sensor on my WRX and on Crowchild yesterday, the slush and snow between the lanes was fairly deep. (No ABS, traction/stability control, no hill assist) Feathering the brakes at all would send the car half a lane sideways as one side had 90% traction and the other had 1%. On my return trip, the car was back normal and the ABS let me brake as hard or as little as I wanted and the car was straight as an arrow. I was very much against ABS as a young driver but the newer driving aids are now pretty sweet. I only now hate ABS on gravel as it most definitely increasing stopping distance vs digging the tires in.

This is basically the same as the whole manual vs auto debate. Eventually technology will out perform most human. ABS today isn't the same as ABS from 20 years ago. I remember there were always pile up at the end of a neighborhood hill until ABS and winter tires are more common. People who knows and care about threshold braking isn't the 80-90% of mainstream public which ABS is designed to save.

And I don't know if people with ABS are still pumping their brakes, remember a lot of people didn't transition well into ABS early on and pumps them which make it perform way worse.

[r3ccOs]

for many years I loved having a manual transmission on a part-time 4 for engine braking on ice... but these days every auto transmission is gearmatic, let alone a DSG so you can still do the same thing but by no means would I ever say that this method of slowing down is > ABS

I mean some ABS systems are far more invasive than others, but those sensors are detecting when your tires have "locked"... so by the time the ABS is engaging, you aren't so called "threshold" breaking.

also performance threshold breaking on tarmac while racing is so incredibly different than a 0 traction environment.

Though I love my F150 with the locker, part time 4 and geartronic... the fact is its primarily RWD, solid rear axle, weighs alot, high center of gravity... so in flat corners or uneven icy roads, or emergency braking in traffic, I'd take my AWD Volvo with studded Winters any day.

On a straight highway in inclement weather where must need to be safe and able to get through all potential snow/ice condition (or to get out of a ditch if it so happens...) I prefer my truck with the Cooper AT/Ws (X/T4)

[Tik-Tok]

TIL people actually use ABS brakes in their habitual driving, and not as an emergency braking procedure. I can't remember the last time I had my ABS in use.

[botox]

Weird. I always assumed that's how everyone did it too. I didn't even know it had a name until I looked it up just now.
Same here. I've been driving like that since I started driving, never knew there was a word for it. Also stopping on undriven/unpolished spots help and if there are patches of concrete I'll brake hard on them.

[Mitsu3000gt]

I find I can definitely stop sooner and harder in snowy/icy conditions by braking just to the point before ABS kicks in. If I need to also steer, then I let the ABS do it's thing. I assumed this is what everyone does because it's super easy to tell which way makes the car stop harder. Especially with a good set of winters it's astonishing how hard you can stop in some pretty horrible conditions.

[ExtraSlow]

TIL that I'm a much worse driver than most of beyond because when there's snow and ice on the ground, my ABS kicks in at least a few times a week. :cry::cry::cry::cry:

[Xtrema]

TIL that I'm a much worse driver than most of beyond because when there's snow and ice on the ground, my ABS kicks in at least a few times a week. :cry::cry::cry::cry:

I have to do driver safety training every 2 years with my old gig. That's exactly how you were taught. Just slam and steer, don't think about modulation and let the system work it out.

[Sugarphreak]

...

[HiTempguy1]

I have to do driver safety training every 2 years with my old gig. That's exactly how you were taught. Just slam and steer, don't think about modulation and let the system work it out.

Lowest common denominator. Not best practices.

[tonytiger55]

Lowest common denominator. Not best practices.

What is best practice then?

[ExtraSlow]

So it's the best practice for an average driver? Well I'm probably no more skilled than average.

[OTown]

TIL that I'm a much worse driver than most of beyond because when there's snow and ice on the ground, my ABS kicks in at least a few times a week. :cry::cry::cry::cry:

In general people drive too fast for the road conditions.

They should try and predict the road/intersections ahead and coast well before braking to slow down gradually. If that light ahead has been green for a while, its likely going to turn yellow/red shortly, so prepare for it.

Not only will their brakes and fuel mileage thank them, but they likely will get to their destination just as fast but they will have a less uneventful/stressful drive in.

Also, just because a road is 80 doesnt mean you have to go 80 when a fresh dump of snow and black ice is on the ground. I have honestly lost count of how many idiots in their AWD vehicles/4x4 pickups cruise past me on hwy 2 during a massive snow dump, only to see them in the ditch a couple minutes later. The laws of physics affect everyone equally, no matter the powertrain.

[J-hop]

Man some of you are either exaggerating or statistical anomalies haha. I CAN count the number of times someone has blown passed me and I later I saw them in the ditch. Maybe twice in my entire life!

[Sugarphreak]

...

[Seth1968]

I subscribe to the theory that speed limits are way too slow to begin with. So if the speed limit is 80, it means go 80 in all conditions... and if you can't go 80, either your car sucks or you suck, but in either case, get your sorry slow ass off of the road and stay home

:rofl:

[Xtrema]

Lowest common denominator. Not best practices.

When you deal with general public, you go for the easiest way that yield best result which is most likely above average

The last thing you need is someone thinking they are Vettel or Hamilton and overthink something that's simple.

[Disoblige]

I subscribe to the theory that speed limits are way too slow to begin with. So if the speed limit is 80, it means go 80 in all conditions... and if you can't go 80, either your car sucks or you suck, but in either case, get your sorry slow ass off of the road and stay home
Wait, is that what you think they mean currently or you think they should mean that?

Because it definitely doesn't mean that now.

[J-hop]

....

The last thing you need is someone thinking they are Vettel or Hamilton and overthink something that's simple.

Isn’t that what most people on here think haha.

[HiTempguy1]

I subscribe to the theory that speed limits are way too slow to begin with. So if the speed limit is 80, it means go 80 in all conditions... and if you can't go 80, either your car sucks or you suck, but in either case, get your sorry slow ass off of the road and stay home

I completely agree. The only time I drop my speed is when A) My vehicle isn't properly equipped (think winter tires, or bad alignment) or B) I can't f'king see the road due to whiteout or torrential downpour.

[botox]

I subscribe to the theory that speed limits are way too slow to begin with. So if the speed limit is 80, it means go 80 in all conditions... and if you can't go 80, either your car sucks or you suck, but in either case, get your sorry slow ass off of the road and stay home
I agree with you for the most part but there are times everyone should slow down like heavy fog/rain, hail, iced up roads, etc.... I passed a guy going about 40 up shag last Friday morning with nobody in front of them. I was sliding around more going slow but when I got up to 70-80 it was much better. These are the types of people that get stuck going up the hill and make others stuck.

[J-hop]

I generally agree except when there is any traffic. I let them dictate my speed as well.

Nothing worse than whipping past traffic and having someone pull out in front because they don’t expect you.
Speeddifferentialkills

[Seth1968]

Weird. I always assumed that's how everyone did it too. I didn't even know it had a name until I looked it up just now.

I didn't know the name either and had to Google it.

Anyway, I drive now and I just go to point A to B while;e avoiding distracted drivers.

[mr2mike]

So if the speed limit is 80, it means go 80 in all conditions... and if you can't go 80, either your car sucks or you suck, but in either case, get your sorry slow ass off of the road and stay home

:thumbsup:

[Sugarphreak]

....

[Buster]

threshold braking in urban environments is inferior to the letting the ABS handle things if you need to step in an emergency.

The trouble with threshold braking in these situations is that a typical urban street has too much variability in traction levels across small distances. You might have a few feet of ice, a few feet of snow, then a few feet of pavement, etc. You can't adjust your threshold quickly enough to adapt to taking advantage of a foot of clear pavement or tacky snow. Modern computers have that advantage because they will brake harder when they can detect an increase in traction.

[ercchry]

I slowed down once....

FP-4xgOo4fs

You off-road boring... if you’re not blowing out bushings from your struts every single time you go down the trail, you’re doing it wrong :rofl:

...stupid jeep

[HiTempguy1]

threshold braking in urban environments is inferior to the letting the ABS handle things if you need to step in an emergency.

The trouble with threshold braking in these situations is that a typical urban street has too much variability in traction levels across small distances. You might have a few feet of ice, a few feet of snow, then a few feet of pavement, etc. You can't adjust your threshold quickly enough to adapt to taking advantage of a foot of clear pavement or tacky snow. Modern computers have that advantage because they will brake harder when they can detect an increase in traction.

Just... just so wrong. :facepalm:

[Darell_n]

Threshold braking is just taking a modern 3 or 4 channel braking system and downgrading it to 1. Works fine if all four tires have similar traction, won’t do squat on bad winter roads. How does one apply the brakes without ABS interference when 1 tire is one glare ice? The stopping distance would be 3000ft.

[Mitsu3000gt]

Threshold braking is just taking a modern 3 or 4 channel braking system and downgrading it to 1. Works fine if all four tires have similar traction, won’t do squat on bad winter roads. How does one apply the brakes without ABS interference when 1 tire is one glare ice? The stopping distance would be 3000ft.

What I notice is that at very low speeds or with extremely light breaking application, I can prevent the ABS from kicking in no matter what the conditions (even pure ice). In every car I've driven it seems the system needs a certain amount of pressure on the pedal for ABS to engage. Especially at low speeds, the car stops harder when I can prevent ABS from engaging, regardless of the road conditions. If it's sheer polished ice though, you're probably SOL no matter what method you prefer haha.

[Buster]

Just... just so wrong. :facepalm:

nope.

[tonytiger55]

My understanding of ABS (feel free to correct me if I am wrong) is your meant to press the brake as as hard as you can and let the computer work it out. It can calculate a lot better and faster and some can do that with all four wheels independently.. something my big hairy foot can't.

The issue I have with the video posted regarding' threshold breaking vs ABS' is a typical road is not like that. Also Is the driver in the video typical driver? No offence Ie is he/she Asian/Indian/white soccer mom..?

When you suddenly have to react to another driver/road condtions suddenly, its instinctive to press the brakes without calculating what to do after. The only people I can think of who can brake and calculate super fast consistently are race car drivers.

Buster and Darell are pretty much spot on. How does the average driver calculate and react to changing road conditions several times a second? Especially when each of your wheels may be hitting a different patch of snow, ice, black ice etc You can't..

[Buster]

^ some guys think they are Schumi

[Sugarphreak]

...

[RealJimmyJames]

Threshold braking is just taking a modern 3 or 4 channel braking system and downgrading it to 1. Works fine if all four tires have similar traction, won’t do squat on bad winter roads. How does one apply the brakes without ABS interference when 1 tire is one glare ice? The stopping distance would be 3000ft.this is exactly how I picture it. Can anyone explain whats incorrect about this?

[r3ccOs]

My understanding of ABS (feel free to correct me if I am wrong) is your meant to press the brake as as hard as you can and let the computer work it out. It can calculate a lot better and faster and some can do that with all four wheels independently.. something my big hairy foot can't.

The issue I have with the video posted regarding' threshold breaking vs ABS' is a typical road is not like that. Also Is the driver in the video typical driver? No offence Ie is he/she Asian/Indian/white soccer mom..?

When you suddenly have to react to another driver/road condtions suddenly, its instinctive to press the brakes without calculating what to do after. The only people I can think of who can brake and calculate super fast consistently are race car drivers.

Buster and Darell are pretty much spot on. How does the average driver calculate and react to changing road conditions several times a second? Especially when each of your wheels may be hitting a different patch of snow, ice, black ice etc You can't..

I'm pretty sure that today EBD/DSTC just like ABS/TC is all based on those sensors, and ABS being the most simple of them all just detects when a wheel locks and inparts a control to modulate the locking under those braking conditions.

The reason why ABS will kick in, even with light braking pressure is because one of your wheels have "locked"... which is not uncommon under any close to 0 traction conditions.

I think the only thing that I'm aware of that provides any level of "intelligence" outside of pedestrian detection, is an active braking system when you suddenly apply brakes outside of a normal driving condition, say evasive driving, it will providing maximum braking while also downshifting the transmission... but I don't believe this changes any parameters of when to use ABS

I really don't think those BOSCH abs systems change the parameter of ABS engagement... you lock a wheel, the control executes.

[rage2]

Pretty sure all vehicles today are 4 channel, so yes, it's ABS'ing each wheel independently of each other. If you're threshold braking, to get optimal stopping distances, you would need to threshold brake to the point where only 3 wheels have ABS engaged and at the threshold of adhesion on the single wheel with the most grip. That's impossible for a driver to know especially in varying conditions. In similar conditions such as say a snow track on Ghost Dam, you can probably figure out the pressure where ABS is triggering and find the sweet spot.

Google says trucks have 3 channel (2 for each front wheel, 1 for both rear wheels) but those are all articles and forum posts from over 10 years ago, so I'm assuming even trucks have moved to 4 channel ABS.

When I'm in emergency braking situations, I threshold brake by habit, hammer on brakes and ease back till ABS pulsates less. I dunno if that's actually better or not because there certainly are small gaps during the entire braking event where ABS isn't kicking in for any wheel because of varying traction limits, but it's impossible to change habit. I certainly can't adjust braking pressure 30 times a second, especially at my age. :rofl:

[Seth1968]

Weird. I always assumed that's how everyone did it too. I didn't even know it had a name until I looked it up just now.

I assumed the same, and also had to google threshold breaking.

Like momma said, assume nothing.

[r3ccOs]

Pretty sure all vehicles today are 4 channel, so yes, it's ABS'ing each wheel independently of each other. If you're threshold braking, to get optimal stopping distances, you would need to threshold brake to the point where only 3 wheels have ABS engaged and at the threshold of adhesion on the single wheel with the most grip. That's impossible for a driver to know especially in varying conditions. In similar conditions such as say a snow track on Ghost Dam, you can probably figure out the pressure where ABS is triggering and find the sweet spot.

Google says trucks have 3 channel (2 for each front wheel, 1 for both rear wheels) but those are all articles and forum posts from over 10 years ago, so I'm assuming even trucks have moved to 4 channel ABS.

When I'm in emergency braking situations, I threshold brake by habit, hammer on brakes and ease back till ABS pulsates less. I dunno if that's actually better or not because there certainly are small gaps during the entire braking event where ABS isn't kicking in for any wheel because of varying traction limits, but it's impossible to change habit. I certainly can't adjust braking pressure 30 times a second, especially at my age. :rofl:

with electronic brake force distribution, this would have to be the case no? I thought it was years ago where they went away from wheel speed sensors for the 3rd channel.

Also, if ABS wasn't beneficial... why would it have been so controversial in F1 all these years?

[rage2]

With EBD, if you crank on the brakes, it's still going to ABS pulsate every wheel, at least that's my understanding. With threshold braking, it would do the job. That's why I have no idea if I'm braking any better using threshold vs ABS. Worth a test one day.

As for F1, ABS was banned with traction control more because F1 engineers could most likely hide traction control type behaviors using ABS, not because ABS was so effective. Although I'm sure F1 guys can engineer a perfect ABS system that maximizes traction for each corner.

[tonytiger55]

With EBD, if you crank on the brakes, it's still going to ABS pulsate every wheel, at least that's my understanding.

As for F1, ABS was banned with traction control more because F1 engineers could most likely hide traction control type behaviors using ABS, not because ABS was so effective. Although I'm sure F1 guys can engineer a perfect ABS system that maximizes traction for each corner.

Didn't Mclaren have a system that was banned? It allowed the outside wheels to spin faster during turning/braking back in the 90's?

[rage2]

Didn't Mclaren have a system that was banned? It allowed the outside wheels to spin faster during turning/braking back in the 90's?
Yea, the 3rd pedal.

[JustinL]

A big advantage on track is not wrecking tires.

[lint]

Just saw that this was posted already in post #7. Not sure why this debate is going on 3 pages, but carry on beyond.

https://jalopnik.com/how-to-stop-on-snow-with-abs-brakes-1790269905

7_99dN4dVkc

[ercchry]

BRAKING

...fuck

Now I feel better :rofl:

[J-hop]

BRAKING

...fuck

Now I feel better :rofl:

I seen them breaking and figured there gunna crash. Irregardless of if they use abs or threshold breaking

[RealJimmyJames]

Just saw that this was posted already in post #7. Not sure why this debate is going on 3 pages, but carry on beyond.
This video is a good example of road conditions that would be extremely rare inside the city limits. Could achieve the same results in dry pavement too. Doesn't really matter.
Put that same rally instructor on variable sloppy partially icy roads and let's see him threshold brake shorter.

[spikerS]

This video is a good example of road conditions that would be extremely rare inside the city limits. Could achieve the same results in dry pavement too. Doesn't really matter.
Put that same rally instructor on variable sloppy partially icy roads and let's see him threshold brake shorter.

How's that flat earth membership working out for you?

[Buster]

This video is a good example of road conditions that would be extremely rare inside the city limits. Could achieve the same results in dry pavement too. Doesn't really matter.
Put that same rally instructor on variable sloppy partially icy roads and let's see him threshold brake shorter.

he's a driving instructor. Of course he's going to sell it. "Technology is better, buy my course!"

[HiTempguy1]

he's a driving instructor. Of course he's going to sell it. "Technology is better, buy my course!"

A "driving instructor"?

Did you know that all of the current "extreme athlete" stars that do various offroad racing have all gone through and started at Team O'Neil (that "driving instructor" being Tim O'Neil himself)? Ken Block, Travis Pastrana, Dave Mirra (rip), Bucky Lasek, all those guys with oodles of money could go anywhere. They all started at O'Neils.

You (and other's claiming to know anything about driving vehicles) are so far out of their league in regards to this talk, it would be comical if it wasn't so sad. Such a typical attitude of ignorant people not wishing to educate themselves.

spikerS nailed it, a whole bunch of anti-vaxxer/flat-earther style talk in here, being presented with credible sources and rockhard facts, and still claiming otherwise.

ABS is great on surfaces with consistent (and high) friction coefficients, such as tarmac. That is because the line is so thin between (traction) or (not traction) that getting every last tenth of a percent of braking force without stepping over the tires grip can be difficult. The difference in braking force with a tire rolling vs not rolling on tarmac is also a greater % then compared to losing grip on loose/slippery surfaces.

In loose surfaces, the margin opens up much wider, and the key is to get as much grip as possible over an entire braking distance (average). It doesn't matter if 5 meters is glare ice, 5 meters is clean pavement, and 5 meters is snow. The most effective way to slow down will be by the lowest average, and threshold braking wins out on those surfaces. Just because a wheel stops (or starts to slip) on bad surfaces doesn't quite make the difference it does on tarmac. In fact, locking the tires up on gravel can be beneficial (it literally creates a wall of gravel in front of the tire, slowing you down).

So, in short, maybe try being a little less ignorant, and a little more open minded. I've instructed at rally schools before, and I consistently finish in the top 10 across Canada in the national series. Just as autonomous cars have a long way to come, so do driving aids.

[Buster]

and yet you're still wrong.

[HiTempguy1]

and yet you're still wrong.

:love: Well, at least we now know you are just trolling. Touche.

[ExtraSlow]

HiTemp, I know you are a skilled and trained driver, who's probably looked a lot further into all this than us utility drivers, but I'm still confused how threshold braking a car with 4-channel abs is preferential for an average driver like me.

Heck statistically there's a 50% chance I'm a below average driver, which would make me the only one on this forum.

Maybe I'm earning this user name?

[spikerS]

HiTemp, I know you are a skilled and trained driver, who's probably looked a lot further into all this than us utility drivers, but I'm still confused how threshold braking a car with 4-channel abs is preferential for an average driver like me.

Heck statistically there's a 50% chance I'm a below average driver, which would make me the only one on this forum.

Maybe I'm earning this user name?

for the average person, ABS is better. These "average" people are usually bad at sports, have bad hand-eye co-ordination, can never get the hang of driving a standard vehicle, and generally have bad spacial awareness, and people like the elderly. Unfortunately, that is for whom ABS is designed for, people that panic and end up just mashing the brake pedal to the floor. Generally these people will still try to steer in these situations, so without ABS, these people just become missles. By ABS not letting their tires lock up, they can still have steering control for collision avoidance.

ANYONE else can learn threshold braking and it's principles and how to do it fairly easily, and can outstop ABS a lot of the time with only a bit of practice. Hell, you probably do it now and don't even realize it.

[HiTempguy1]

HiTemp, I know you are a skilled and trained driver, who's probably looked a lot further into all this than us utility drivers, but I'm still confused how threshold braking a car with 4-channel abs is preferential for an average driver like me.

Heck statistically there's a 50% chance I'm a below average driver, which would make me the only one on this forum.

Maybe I'm earning this user name?

I would argue that is is incumbent on anyone with a driver's licence to have an approximate idea of the braking limits of their vehicle.

I would further argue that anyone considering themselves an "average" driver should know this. If you don't, you certainly are not just on the edge, but below average.

And finally, that video clearly demonstrates on a modern car known for a lot of fairly advanced electronic trickery in its stability control systems, its not just a little, but a LOT of difference.

In just that video posted alone, we're talking meters. And Tim, while I respect him, at the end of the day is not the greatest driver out there. One could even argue he's actually quite mediocre.

Threshold braking is not magical. Technically, you do it everytime your tires dont lock up while stopping. It's just to the degree that you do it. If you find your ABS engaging all the time, you really need to think about learning how to drive better. However, this sometimes comes down to equipment. It doesn't matter what braking you do if you are running on all-seasons in winter. All-seasons are not designed for winter, no matter what you are told. The rubber compounds can not be designed both for longevity in the heat (summer at 30*C) and grip in the cold (winter at -30*C). It is physically impossible.

Full stop, not running winter tires is incredibly stupid. I don't advocate for government intervention very often, but I 100% advocate winter tires being mandatory.

So in short, I would bet the average driver could stop better than their abs. And I actually think ABS is a danger as it kicks in too early in poor conditions, rather than letting drivers first get a handle on things. A partially rolling tire is better than a locked tire, but ABS releasing most of the brake pressure is downright dangerous.

ABS is one of those things that in theory, works really well, but in practice, honestly I don't think it makes a difference. Vehicle performance is so incredibly high nowadays, if you are getting in an accident, it isn't because of anything to do with the vehicle.

I'd be happy for Rage to throw some money my way and I'll go out and video all of this on closed courses, bit of a myth busters on it :p

[rage2]

Now I'm excited for the next snow dump to actually test ABS vs threshold braking!

[tonytiger55]

HiTempguy1 would you not agree in that video the driver is anticipating the turning, and braking? Its a controlled closed course which does not have the same conditions as my drive to work today or sudden shock of idiot drivers pulling out unexpectedly.

Take the three stereotypes of the drivers below(Asian driver (Corolla), pumpkin spice latte drinking ugg boot chihuahua loving girls (Hyundai Elantra) and your local bro dog in his F150.).

If they have a driver pull out or even better...lets say they are tootling along Deerfoot and drive towards the Calf Robe Bridge. Its a day or so after snowfall, so the roads are partially clear and daytime melt/refreeze has happened. First car going across the calf robe bridge panic brakes as there is a change of surface and car bounces slightly. Second car behind is driving a bit close.. but brakes hard. Third car seeing second car braking but now stopping distance is decreased, panics and at the same time hits the bridge (i.e change in surface, bump). Would they
A: Ponder and think... Hmmmm I'l just threshold brake and while im at it... I'l make a nice cup of tea.
Or
B. Instinctively slam on the brakes.

In the scenario which form of braking do you think would be more effective to these drivers?


80516

80517

80518

[ercchry]

So... I get what he is saying, but I’m not fully following the logic since some points are a little contradictory

If 95% of the cars on the road have abs, and abs as a safety system cannot legally be disabled and as a functioning system does not allow you to brake to your maximum threshold due to it being over zealous... then how is threshold braking on an abs equipped car superior to letting the system do its own thing... in an emergency (ie. unplanned, full survival instinct environment) situation?

Would you not be leaving a lot of braking force on the table in this situation?

My driving is a lot more dynamic than this conversation when it comes to how and when I apply the brakes... but I also have a lot of very extreme situation driving experience in a variety of levels of nannied vehicles... and yeah, I prefer zero, and that includes abs... but in day to day driving on the streets you kind of have to dumb down your own driving cause the odds are high you’ll catch up to someone mid corner that is experiencing their first winter... and scrubbing that kind of speed mid corner in adverse conditions is not a good time. Race car best performance practices usually don’t translate well to driving in traffic

[Buster]

HiTempguy is speaking in absolutes. Always a risk.

ie. Because threshold braking is superior in X situation - then it will be superior in ALL situations.

Much better to determine where and when ABS would be superior for ALL drivers (ie situations where threshold braking can be reasonably expected to perform worse), and determine if those situations are common enough to warrant conditioning people to "brake to ABS" in any emergency situation.

[Tik-Tok]

Even the Canadian government agree's that ABS won't stop you sooner...


Is the stopping distance shorter with ABS?

No! From early commercials, it may have looked like you could stop on a dime. That instantaneous stop is not realistic. When braking on dry or wet roads your stopping distance will be about the same as with conventional brakes.

You should allow for a longer stopping distance with ABS than for conventional brakes when driving on gravel, slush, and snow. This is because the rotating tire will stay on top of this low traction road surface covering, and effectively "float" on this boundary layer.

A non ABS braked vehicle can lock its tires and create a snow plow effect in front of the tires which helps slow the vehicle. These locked tires can often find more traction below this boundary layer.

https://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/motorvehiclesafety/tp-tp13082-abs2_e-215.htm

[J-hop]

Yea I find this very interesting. Time and time again testing has shown abs wont stop you faster. But every time people say “that test was under very unique conditions”, the range conditions of where abs will stop you quicker keeps getting pushed further and further into a corner. At what point do people realize the “general” conditions they are claiming are in fact the very specific and unique situations?

[Darell_n]

Even the Canadian government agree's that ABS won't stop you sooner...



https://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/motorvehiclesafety/tp-tp13082-abs2_e-215.htm

This is my experience as well, but doesn’t pan out so well with any maneuvers involved.

[zhao]

here is why a skilled driver threshold braking can ("can") be > abs.

abs works by detecting a loss of traction, but when you exceed your grip and lose traction you are braking worse than if you remained at the threshold of grip without exceeding the grip. Every single time you lock your wheels you are not braking optimally, so if abs keeps you going in and out of locks so that you do not go in to a full lock situation, you are not braking optimally. if it keeps you away from that threshold with a healthy margin of error you are not braking optimally.

4 wheels being independent of each other would be very hard for a driver to be better than in some circumstances, if at all, but on your average road grip is relatively constant across the whole surface, so the majority of the time a driver can out brake abs if they have some skill because all 4 wheels have the same relative grip..... unless the car is shit and the brake bias is terrible.....

so i guess on a road where 3 tires grip and one doesn't, abs might have an advantage over a skilled driver.... but then again, if 3 tires are gripping they have so much more grip than a tire on ice, so the slight advantage abs is giving for grip o nthat one tire on ice really isn't going to add up to much in the grand scheme of things.

Also, a skilled driver would know to move off the ice, or puddles of water, or sand, whatever in an emergency braking situation.


no abs in a rwd has one advantage too in that you can create your own traction control and get out of extreme angle spin situations. adding abs takes that away, but then again most race car drivers dont even understand you can use the brakes and throttle to recover from a spin, so that's pretty advanced.

[r3ccOs]

so... I don't think anyone really should ever "rely" on ABS regardless of condition, just as nobody would ever "rely" on ABS on dry pavement in the summer.

however, coming home tonight going the speed limit in the middle lane... all of a sudden some mid 2k' corolla just slams on its brakes almost to a stop with probably 50 feet ahead of some idiot pulling his bumper pull trailer in -8 conditions... maybe he's threadhold braking

BUT it caused me, who wasn't that close behind him, to press agressively on my brakes to the point where the ABS came on, which honestly allowed me to steer away from his back end and into the free passin glane as he decided to basically come to a stop

so if its anything... ABS gives you the ability to evade accidents in unpredictable circumstances or conditions.

[rage2]

I didn't realize that I've never slammed on the brakes and let ABS do all the work. Realized this when I tried it for the first time in some residential roads still covered in mix of snow and ice. As I eased off the brakes after slamming on the brakes triggering full ABS I can feel some of the wheels stop locking and braking G forces increase dramatically. So yea, threshold braking w/ABS > ABS full pressure braking. Wasn't even close.

I thought I wouldn't be able to tell if ABS was just adjusting all wheels or just a couple, but I'm wrong. I've always been able to tell based on the amount of pulsating and the amount of g forces. I've been subconsciously adjusting braking pressure to find that threshold with small amounts of ABS triggering on less than 4 wheels by analyzing abs pulsing and g-force feedback all this time without even knowing it.

I think I'm Schumi.

[ExtraSlow]

I feel like we are having multiple conversations in the same thread. Was anyone actually suggesting that for normal non-emergency situations they press the brake pedal down full force?

I was just saying that when I'm braking as normal, with moderate force, I don't get concerned when abs kicks in, which does happen to me a few times a week through the winter.

I am not schumi.

[J-hop]

I feel like we are having multiple conversations in the same thread. Was anyone actually suggesting that for normal non-emergency situations they press the brake pedal down full force?

I was just saying that when I'm braking as normal, with moderate force, I don't get concerned when abs kicks in, which does happen to me a few times a week through the winter.

I am not schumi.

There are at least 3 in this thread (buster, Darrell and tony) that are continuing to argue that when you need to stop quickly planting the pedal and having ABS sort it out will beat threshold.

Which as numerous tests have shown and Rage showed is 9 times out of 10 utter garbage.

While it can be a natural reaction it’s not a good reaction. If you grew up driving cars without ABS you know it’s actually not as impossible as it seems to break that habit. I drove 5 winters without ABS (as a new driver to boot), I’m pretty dumb and I figured out threshold braking, so can everyone else.

[Darell_n]

There are at least 3 in this thread (buster, Darrell and tony) that are continuing to argue that when you need to stop quickly planting the pedal and having ABS sort it out will beat threshold.

Which as numerous tests have shown and Rage showed is 9 times out of 10 utter garbage.

While it can be a natural reaction it’s not a good reaction. If you grew up driving cars without ABS you know it’s actually not as impossible as it seems to break that habit. I drove 5 winters without ABS (as a new driver to boot), I’m pretty dumb and I figured out threshold braking, so can everyone else.

Not me. I’m just saying if the ABS pulses even once you are no longer threshold braking, you are no cheating yourself into being Schumi.

[rage2]

Not me. I’m just saying if the ABS pulses even once you are no longer threshold braking, you are no cheating yourself into being Schumi.
Another test this morning thanks to the overnight weather. Right 2 wheels on wet pavement, left 2 wheels on ice, so right 2 wheels doing all the work. Crank on the brakes, can feel ABS kicking in on the left wheels, barely any ABS action on the right wheels because of grip, resulting in pretty short stopping distance. Threshold braking was pretty much at the same pedal effort with left wheels ABSing, so braking felt pretty much the same. So in mixed conditions with 2 tires with good grip, it feels like it makes no difference. So yea, if ABS isn't triggering on all 4 wheels, is it still threshold braking? Because by your definition, my test would need very little braking pressure to have ZERO ABS pulses which would result in brutal stopping distances dictated by the grip of the left wheels.

Interesting topic, thanks for this week's driving entertainment! :thumbsup:

[RealJimmyJames]

I never meant this to be it’s own thread but glad to be of service

[Darell_n]

Another test this morning thanks to the overnight weather. Right 2 wheels on wet pavement, left 2 wheels on ice, so right 2 wheels doing all the work. Crank on the brakes, can feel ABS kicking in on the left wheels, barely any ABS action on the right wheels because of grip, resulting in pretty short stopping distance. Threshold braking was pretty much at the same pedal effort with left wheels ABSing, so braking felt pretty much the same. So in mixed conditions with 2 tires with good grip, it feels like it makes no difference. So yea, if ABS isn't triggering on all 4 wheels, is it still threshold braking? Because by your definition, my test would need very little braking pressure to have ZERO ABS pulses which would result in brutal stopping distances dictated by the grip of the left wheels.

Interesting topic, thanks for this week's driving entertainment! :thumbsup:

Now disable your ABS with a pulled fuse or wheel sensor, as I experienced when I started commenting on this thread. The same situation would throw your car sideways with very little brake pressure. Threshold braking would keep your car straight but would increase stopping time measured in minutes (slight exaggeration) ABS is far, far better in these conditions that I found myself in on Crowchild last week. Not possible to do this without electronics, being the simple meat popsicle I am.

[tonytiger55]

There are at least 3 in this thread (buster, Darrell and tony) that are continuing to argue that when you need to stop quickly planting the pedal and having ABS sort it out will beat threshold.

Which as numerous tests have shown and Rage showed is 9 times out of 10 utter garbage.

While it can be a natural reaction it’s not a good reaction. If you grew up driving cars without ABS you know it’s actually not as impossible as it seems to break that habit. I drove 5 winters without ABS (as a new driver to boot), I’m pretty dumb and I figured out threshold braking, so can everyone else.

I think there is a miss understanding in my argument.

When you brake there are several variables at play outside those listed on the video. I don't think everyone is a proficient driver to calculate those variables. That has been my argument. ABS assists.

Lets take the Transport Canada website and get this out of the way.


You should allow for a longer stopping distance with ABS than for conventional brakes when driving on gravel, slush, and snow. This is because the rotating tire will stay on top of this low traction road surface covering, and effectively "float" on this boundary layer.

A non ABS braked vehicle can lock its tires and create a snow plow effect in front of the tires which helps slow the vehicle. These locked tires can often find more traction below this boundary layer.

Did any of you guys ever study English literature in high school? Study the text. What do you notice? Lets ask a question. If there is no snow, or their is patches of ice or compacted snow ice. How do you get a snow plough effect? That statement is not wrong. But it is set upon a specific set of road conditions.
No snow plough if road does not have snow

80532

There are several variables at play when you break. The argument presented regarding threshold breaking only works on set pre determined conditions. Like the video posted in the snow.

Also please explain what you meant by my statement ABS beating threshold?

I never stated ABS beats threshold. My point is its a better for the majority of the drivers on the road to let the computer calculate. But I will explain my viewpoint a bit more.

Take the example I gave above regarding Asian driver, Pumpkin Latte girl and Bro dog. The Old Asian drivers reactions may be slower, Pumpkin Spice latte girl may not have a clue on road conditions as she will be texting (i know ive been rear ended by one), and bro dog will think cos he has 4X4 he can brake 4x4. The road condition may not be snow. It could be a combo of things. We don't know. They have a split second to make a decision. The ABS as described above will factor in what each wheel is doing. They may or may not stop. But they will be able to maintain control of their vehicle far better than non ABS vehicle.

Now lets say they dont have ABS. The vehicle can possibly skid in a uncontrolled manner, do you put your faith in the above drivers skill to
1. Know the road conditions on each wheel?
2. Know how how to handle their vehicle as it maneuvers in way they have never had to manage before?

Now if the road is in perfect condition like the video. They can probably stop and not have an accident. But watch some you tube videos of drivers stopping on ice without ABS. They stop earlier but they fight to maintain control of the vehicle. Now the drivers listed above fight to stop their cars but can potentially and partially end up in another lane, they you got another accident coming. Even worse, supposing its a two lane highway. You stop in time and do a power fist in the air. But then you realise, your car has partially drifted out of the lane and you got a big rig coming towards you, your car is at a angle, so its gonna hit the side of your vehicle.... has threshold really beat ABS? Or do you use ABS and hit the vehicle in front and let the crumple zone of your vehicle and airbags take care of it? Its a legit morbid question?

Look at the video. I assume your argument is based on this. I concede on these specific set of conditions yes threshold does beat ABS.

Look at the 1. driver, 2. angle of the non ABS vehicle and look at the 3. road condition. Thats my argument. Lots of variables. Real world does not play out like that.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQdtayz525A

Here is another, but the vehicle goes off line.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0JR31PTir8

The spectrum of braking is really wide. ABS is not a perfect system. I see it as assistingto the broader range of drivers on the road. I dont think all drivers (even smart people) have it 'figured it out'.

Another question.. if threshold breaking is better. If it was legal to do so would Beyond members disable ABS and allow your children to drive that vehicle and let them figure it out?

Hell.. then why does the car industry have ABS as standard? Why not just not have it let drivers figure it out? :dunno:

Fuck.. I now have this image in my head of you guys driving and having to make a spit level decision and then yelling at your kid next to you..
'Son where is the fuse box'
'Nooo daddy nooo'..
'Kill the fuses dammit.. We dont need ABS... '

Sorry, its friday.. and I have haz weird imaginations.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u18mbeb_mcA

[Tik-Tok]

The problem with your youtube video's is that those people aren't threshold braking, they're just slamming on the brakes. This is what most people do in an emergency situation, and hence why ABS is mandatory, but it doesn't mean that it's a more efficient stopping method. ABS is meant to help you steer to avoid a collision while panic braking, not to stop you sooner.

[rage2]

:clap: to the Die Hard 3 reference haha.

[zhao]

Now disable your ABS with a pulled fuse or wheel sensor, as I experienced when I started commenting on this thread. The same situation would throw your car sideways with very little brake pressure. Threshold braking would keep your car straight but would increase stopping time measured in minutes (slight exaggeration) ABS is far, far better in these conditions that I found myself in on Crowchild last week. Not possible to do this without electronics, being the simple meat popsicle I am.

no, it would not 'throw' your car sideways. You could disable the brakes on one side of the car and what will happen is it will pull one direction but not be hugely dangerous besides greatly increasing stopping distances. i've had a front caliper seize on a race track and besides stopping distances increasing hugely, it wasn't really noticeable. just a tiny pull, and this was on wheels that had zero braking power vs tires on another side that had more braking grip than any street car would ever see. Repeat the same thing on ice and you wont get too much different a result. repeat the same thing with a giant puddle on one side of the car hyrdoplaning it and bare pavement on the other and again, similar result. Slight pull, no crazy spinout or throwing or anything.

abs is useful, but not having abs doesn't spin you out or jump lanes unless you are an unskilled driver. Use your steering wheel to correct for the pull, if there is even a noticeable pull, and you'll be fine.

I should also add that if you find one side of your tires is on ice, and one side is on super grippy pavement...... you should probably use the steering wheel to move all your tires on to grippy pavement because if there is wierd ice build up like that it is probably because of tracks left by other cars, so it should be very easy to move over 12 inches to the left or right and be in a situation where you have grip on all tires. That a big reason for why driver skill > drivers aids.