How to deal with rolled back odometer? [Archive] - Beyond.ca - Car Forums

soccernut

01-11-2018, 11:05 PM

Hi guys,
It's been a while since I posted here.

I come to you guys asking for some help and guidance with an issue I encountered after purchasing a truck.

On December 23 I bought a truck from some one. He has advertised with 228,000 kms on it. The bill of sale that we signed had a blank where the kms go. I didn't think too much of it.

Fast forward a couple of weeks where a friend had a carproof to burn so we ran it on my truck and discovered that the truck has had it's mileage roller back.

I confronted the previous owner and he said that he doesn't remember anything about that. Later he tells me that when he bought it from the auction, his bill of sale said 170,000 kms and "mileage unknown". The car proof shows that it had 350,000 just before it went to auction.

I asked him if we can reverse the sale and now he refused. His argument is that he didn't know that the mileage was rolled back.

I called AMVIC and they said that they don't deal with private sales.

I am now pursuing filing a report with the police.

Does anyone have any advice on what course of action I can follow to recover my money and give this guy his truck back? I have never experienced such a thing and I don't really know how to deal with this.

Thanks in advance.

relyt92

01-11-2018, 11:40 PM

It's super shitty but I'd be surprised if you could do anything without being able to prove he knew it was rolled back.

FraserB

01-11-2018, 11:45 PM

You’d most likely have to prove that he either rolled it back himself or knowingly misrepresented it, neither of which you can really do. The Carproof isn’t really proof, especially since mileage reporting isn’t mandatory and can get typo’d atbthe registry.

revelations

01-12-2018, 12:05 AM

Sorry but youre SOL. The police will tell you that its a civil matter as its a he said, she said situation without proof. Mileage reporting is suspect at best.

Its also frighteningly easy in many vehicles to modify the odo. I would be performing a mechanical inspection (including compression/leakdown) on a vehicle if its worth more than a few K.

J-hop

01-12-2018, 03:08 AM

spikerS

01-12-2018, 03:18 AM

are you absolutely sure it’s been rolled back? Pretty much impossible on newer cars.

Keep in mind carproof sometimes has screwups where mileage is entered as miles and carproof does a conversion to kms when the mileage was actually in kms. So it looks like it has been rolled back but it actually hasn’t

It isn't pretty much impossible. In fact, from what I have seen, it is very easy do do apparently thought the OBDII port with a specific piece of equipment.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/OBDPROG-MT401-Odometer-Adjustment-Mileage-Correction-OBDII-Diagnostic-Scanner-US-/152698048744

J-hop

01-12-2018, 06:07 AM

It isn't pretty much impossible. In fact, from what I have seen, it is very easy do do apparently thought the OBDII port with a specific piece of equipment.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/OBDPROG-MT401-Odometer-Adjustment-Mileage-Correction-OBDII-Diagnostic-Scanner-US-/152698048744

I have never seen anyone successfully do it. Especially with just an off the shelf Ebay tool. For most cars it’s harder than people think. Dealer even requires specific software and in some cases physically replacing chips.

That aside think about it who is going to roll back an old truck from 350k to 228k to make an extra $400? No one....

350k kms is 219k miles. My guess is the mileage at the auction sale was 219k kms and was accidentally converted. Guy drove the truck for 9k and then sold it to OP. That to me is much more plausible. Ive dealt with this twice before where carproof made it look like the odometer had been rolledback but if you backed off 1.6x on several of the entries everything lined up perfectly

dirtsniffer

01-12-2018, 07:55 AM

Jhop csi to the rescue.

soccernut

01-12-2018, 08:46 AM

I just thought to clarify the odometer timeline a bit better. In the car proof there are only 3 records that cover the mileage.

Jun 2008 200,000 KM
Dec 2008 224,000KM
Aug 2011 353,000 KM (At the auction "announced as accident repair")

2011 Previous owner told me, after pushing him for answers, that he remembers saying that the bill of sale had said (170,000 KM "Mileage Unknown"). I had the presence of mine to record the audio from our phone conversation (Not sure if it will help)

And when I bought the truck in December, it had 228,000 KM.

The truck is an 05 so it's not as new and it has been in Canada the entire time.

I called the auction, they said they do have records of everything they sell but they won't release it to me. But if the cops come knocking they will. If I can get my hands on that original bill of sale from the auction, I can prove that he knew that the odometer was rolled.

G-ZUS

01-12-2018, 08:52 AM

I have never seen anyone successfully do it. Especially with just an off the shelf Ebay tool. For most cars it’s harder than people think. Dealer even requires specific software and in some cases physically replacing chips.

That aside think about it who is going to roll back an old truck from 350k to 228k to make an extra $400? No one....

350k kms is 219k miles. My guess is the mileage at the auction sale was 219k kms and was accidentally converted. Guy drove the truck for 9k and then sold it to OP. That to me is much more plausible. Ive dealt with this twice before where carproof made it look like the odometer had been rolledback but if you backed off 1.6x on several of the entries everything lined up perfectly

If there's a will - there's a way. Last year I sold an '06 SUV with 250k to some shady curber, turned up on Kijiji a week later with ~120k. CPS wasn't interested in having anything to do with it

bjstare

01-12-2018, 08:55 AM

G-ZUS

01-12-2018, 08:59 AM

Maybe I'm missing something, but what's stopping someone from swapping out the cluster with one that has lower miles on it? Doesn't matter how hard it is to "roll it back" if you just put a different cluster in :dunno:

Not that easy, most newer vehicles with digital odometers store the mileage in the ECM, BCM etc. So when you swap the cluster it'll just show the correct mileage. on 90's vehicle with manual odometers it is possible

ExtraSlow

01-12-2018, 08:59 AM

Anyone who buys a vehicle and does carproof later is a moron.

firebane

01-12-2018, 09:00 AM

Maybe I'm missing something, but what's stopping someone from swapping out the cluster with one that has lower miles on it? Doesn't matter how hard it is to "roll it back" if you just put a different cluster in :dunno:

You are correct. GM trucks and I'm sure others store mileage in the cluster so swapping out is a change in mileage and peopke charge stupid amounts to correct it.

soccernut

01-12-2018, 09:02 AM

I agree, it was pretty moronic of me to cheap out on a carproof.

And yes, this truck has the odometer "brain" on the cluster. I verified this with a dealership

J-hop

01-12-2018, 10:14 AM

I agree, it was pretty moronic of me to cheap out on a carproof.

And yes, this truck has the odometer "brain" on the cluster. I verified this with a dealership

How old is it? Many newer vehicles the clusters are ‘paired’ to the ECM so swapping the cluster doesn’t work until the new ones been paired to the ECM.

But again if you’re going to the trouble to do that you aren’t rolling it back from 350 to 228k that would be wasted effort.

How long did the previous owner have the truck?

soccernut

01-12-2018, 10:22 AM

How old is it? Many newer vehicles the clusters are ‘paired’ to the ECM so swapping the cluster doesn’t work until the new ones been paired to the ECM.

But again if you’re going to the trouble to do that you aren’t rolling it back from 350 to 228k that would be wasted effort.

How long did the previous owner have the truck?

It's an 05.
The odo was rolled back in 2011 from 350 and now is at 229. I am not sure what it was rolled back to. The previous owner said it had 170 when he bought it in 2011

J-hop

01-12-2018, 10:36 AM

It's an 05.
The odo was rolled back in 2011 from 350 and now is at 229. I am not sure what it was rolled back to. The previous owner said it had 170 when he bought it in 2011

Does it have any previous records of odometer readings?

Sorry I’m being sceptical I’ve just dealt with this exact problem twice and it was on carproof’s end.

Not sure if you considered this but 350k in 6 years is almost 60,000k/year. Although possible if it’s a work truck it would most likely be leased back/sold after a couple years. Extremely unlikely someone would own a truck and put 60k/year for 6 years on. For comparison the guy you bought it off put 60k in 6 years.

Plus that would mean the truck now has over 400k on it. Unless it was taken extremely good care of you can tell a 400k truck from a 230k truck.

Everything is leading me to think the odometer reporting in carproof is wrong. 170x1.6x1.6=358k just a thought.

soccernut

01-12-2018, 10:56 AM

Does it have any previous records of odometer readings?

Sorry I’m being sceptical I’ve just dealt with this exact problem twice and it was on carproof’s end.

Not sure if you considered this but 350k in 6 years is almost 60,000k/year. Although possible if it’s a work truck it would most likely be leased back/sold after a couple years. Extremely unlikely someone would own a truck and put 60k/year for 6 years on. For comparison the guy you bought it off put 60k in 6 years.

Plus that would mean the truck now has over 400k on it. Unless it was taken extremely good care of you can tell a 400k truck from a 230k truck.

Everything is leading me to think the odometer reporting in carproof is wrong. 170x1.6x1.6=358k just a thought.

It doesn't have any KM readings other than the 3 I have listed in the post above. I am not sure why the mileage would be misconstrued to be in miles on a Canadian truck that has never left Canada.

I do agree that the amount of kms put on the truck is ridiculously high to the point that it's not possible. (24,000 KM in 6 months?). I will get in touch with carproof and see what they have to say about it. I didn't question carproof since they have three records a few years apart all saying similar things.

Rocket1k78

01-12-2018, 11:02 AM

I have never seen anyone successfully do it. Especially with just an off the shelf Ebay tool. For most cars it’s harder than people think. Dealer even requires specific software and in some cases physically replacing chips.

That aside think about it who is going to roll back an old truck from 350k to 228k to make an extra $400? No one....

So because you "personally" havent seen anyone roll back a newer vehicle you think its pretty much impossible? I would be willing to bet its as easy as getting a phone unlocked if have a guy who knows what hes doing lol
If the guy rolled it back it wasnt purely for the money(120k is going to be worth more than $400 anyways), it was to help sell the vehicle. I would also bet you op wouldn't have thought twice if the truck was listed with over 300k kms.

I also agree that the mileage doesnt make sense

firebane

01-12-2018, 11:27 AM

It's an 05.
The odo was rolled back in 2011 from 350 and now is at 229. I am not sure what it was rolled back to. The previous owner said it had 170 when he bought it in 2011

What type of truck GM/Chevy?

GTR_Auto

01-12-2018, 11:31 AM

Mileage on new cars is very easy to change all done via OBD2. Especially in the vw / audi world. Couple clicks and someone can make it read what they want. Granted you need the tools to do so but a few thousand for some quality tools and you are good to go!

soccernut

01-12-2018, 11:45 AM

What type of truck GM/Chevy?

Toyota

spikerS

01-12-2018, 04:56 PM

Xtrema

01-12-2018, 05:52 PM

What's end game OP? Isn't the difference in price would be around $2000 or less for 100k difference?

J-hop

01-12-2018, 05:57 PM

It doesn't have any KM readings other than the 3 I have listed in the post above. I am not sure why the mileage would be misconstrued to be in miles on a Canadian truck that has never left Canada.

I do agree that the amount of kms put on the truck is ridiculously high to the point that it's not possible. (24,000 KM in 6 months?). I will get in touch with carproof and see what they have to say about it. I didn't question carproof since they have three records a few years apart all saying similar things.

Trust me happens all the time. Like I said I’ve dealt with this on two vehicles both had never left Alberta.

J-hop

01-12-2018, 06:07 PM

So because you "personally" havent seen anyone roll back a newer vehicle you think its pretty much impossible? I would be willing to bet its as easy as getting a phone unlocked if have a guy who knows what hes doing lol
If the guy rolled it back it wasnt purely for the money(120k is going to be worth more than $400 anyways), it was to help sell the vehicle. I would also bet you op wouldn't have thought twice if the truck was listed with over 300k kms.

I also agree that the mileage doesnt make sense

No meaning, joe blow off the street doesn’t have the equipment, and they certainly aren’t buying it to roll back some old truck.

That aside did people actually look at the mileage and think about it? I’m calling BS on the carproof reported mileage.

soccernut

01-12-2018, 06:09 PM

Guys I called carproof and they backed up the numbers. I called the Toyota dealer and it was brought it for service before it went to auction and the kms correlate with the car proof.

I think this leaves no doubt about the roll back on the odometer.

npham

01-12-2018, 10:37 PM

I don't know what you gained by figuring out that it was rolled back after the fact. If you did an inspection of the car before the purchase, and found it to be in acceptable condition for the price/mileage, you should be happy that the truck has 'worn' well. If you didn't get an inspection and just gave it the once over in the driveway, then you deserved to get bent over. Live and learn; I honestly don't see why you wouldn't get a CarProof when buying used, it's so quick and easy. Also, there's no way the seller is going to refund the deal, and there's no way you win any sort of small claims court battle either. You need to chalk this up to a 'cheap' lesson since you presumably got a truck you wanted in a condition/price you deemed acceptable.

soccernut

01-12-2018, 10:56 PM

I agree that I made a mistake in not covering my bases ahead of the buy. But I believe that he should have disclosed the mileage issues to me as that would make the contract we signed ( bill of sale) illegal.
I have spoken to the police about it and they backed me up on that. I just have to prove that he knew about it.

dj_rice

01-12-2018, 11:48 PM

On bill of sale, does it say AS IS?

soccernut

01-12-2018, 11:57 PM

On bill of sale, does it say AS IS?

Yes but
https://www.servicealberta.ca/odometer-fraud.cfm

Rocket1k78

01-13-2018, 04:42 PM

No meaning, joe blow off the street doesn’t have the equipment, and they certainly aren’t buying it to roll back some old truck.

LOL i know its hard to admit you're wrong but cmon man. Sounds like joe blow off the street either has the equipment or more than likely took it to one of the many people that offer this service since op has verified the kms are right. Like i said new or old, rolling back the kms is totally worth it for the shit heads that want to scam.
Soccernut, would you have bought this truck for $500 less than what you paid if the kms were 325k instead of the 225k kms?

Just typed in odometer correction on kijiji and theres a whole list of guys that can do it(im sure they only do it for legit reasons lol) and the first guy can do cars as new as 2017
https://www.kijiji.ca/v-auto-repair-maintenance/calgary/restoration-and-correction-expert-instrument-cluster-displays/1078206344?enableSearchNavigationFlag=true

CompletelyNumb

01-13-2018, 05:31 PM

I do agree that the amount of kms put on the truck is ridiculously high to the point that it's not possible. (24,000 KM in 6 months?).

Not only possible, but VERY common on trucks in Alberta. Oil boys do a lot of driving :)

soccernut

01-13-2018, 06:45 PM

Rocket I would not have bought the truck at all. The truck had 352k in 2011. God knows what the mileage is now.

redblack

01-13-2018, 07:32 PM

Your only solution is to stop driving it and take him to small claims, that process can take months so plan accordingly.

cam_wmh

01-15-2018, 11:52 PM

So Registry agent just free hand inputs whatever the owner at the time spitballs as their mileage during yearly vehicle registration renewal?

Yeah, I can see typos/inaccurate quotes occurring often if that's the case.

craigcd

01-16-2018, 07:50 AM

G-ZUS

01-16-2018, 08:57 AM

There is a guy who advertises on Kijiji for mileage correction hahaha

https://www.kijiji.ca/v-auto-repair-maintenance/calgary/speedometer-correction-calibration-truck-suv-specialist/1078129096?enableSearchNavigationFlag=true

Always wondered if this was a CPS bait add, sounds like they don't really care though.

They don't really care, I bought a car years ago that turned out to be rolled back...They told me to take the seller to small claims court lol

Last year, I sold a suv to a guy and he re-listed it a week later with half the mileage. Filed a statement with CPS, "If I happen to be in his area, I will swing by and have a chat with him". Nothing ever came out of it

Kloubek

01-16-2018, 03:00 PM

Your only solution is to stop driving it and take him to small claims, that process can take months so plan accordingly.

This is pretty much it. No third party will be interested in getting involved, so it comes down to a civil matter.

bignerd

01-19-2018, 10:00 PM

Curious as I know you can report your mileage on your vehicle registration form when you renew. This would help prevent fraud in the future correct? If you report your mileage on your registration does that get reported to carfax as well?

sarah_t34

01-20-2018, 11:46 AM

In regards to it being "implausible mileage" my 2004 Mazda B4000 has 610,000 kms on it. So 350+ is not really that unlikely.

Sugarphreak

01-20-2018, 04:18 PM

...

soccernut

01-20-2018, 05:29 PM

Thanks Sugarfreak, that's the best bit of advice I have gotten so far. I'm still weighing my options and think I will go with the later

Sugarphreak

01-20-2018, 05:56 PM

...

ExtraSlow

01-21-2018, 06:31 AM

As a guy who buys a lot of high mileage trucks, yeah there's a real dollar value to that difference. If it was me however I'd not bother with small claims court. How do you prove that this guy is the scumbag and not someone before him? Take it as an expensive lesson, cry, yell, drink, and move on.