Managing renovations - Self manage vs General Contractor

[el_fefes]

We just bought a place and are looking to reno the kitchen, ensuite bathroom, and paint trims.

What would you guys recommend?

Wife and I both work so it would be tough to be at home for any of the work. Is managing this sort of project doable while one is working?

Better to go through a general contractor to coordinate everything?

[ExtraSlow]

If you can't devote much time to it, I'd assume you will end up with more/longer delays going the self-managed route.

Although usually for bathrooms you should be able to get a single person to do 90% of the work. Kitchen too probably.

[Mitsu3000gt]

I would just avoid anyone who sub-contracts (or sometimes even sub-sub contracts), as most of the time it is the cheapest, worst possible trade they can possibly find. I have been burned 3 times by this now on major work. Manager comes in, makes himself sound all quality-oriented, etc. and maybe he is but he does NONE of the work. Then, in come all these guys who appear to have zero actual construction experience and do an unbelievably poor job (whatever the cheapest labor he could find I am sure). Then, you want him to fix all the problems and guess who shows up to "fix" it"? Never again.

Either get one guy who can do most/all of it himself or hire specific trades for each piece and make sure the guys you are talking to and are comfortable with are the actual ones doing the work.

[G-ZUS]

Hire specific trades yourself..

[s_havinga]

If you have the cash- general it out. If you do it yourself, make sure you know the process. Nothing worse than having trades blames each other for work not getting done and then ending up with a bunch of extra charges at the end because of return trips.

I have found that hiring the same company for a few of the trades can help push back to them playing nice together. For example- if you hire Pete the plumber to do the plumbing, get them to quote any HVAC as well and get a quote from "Pete the Electricaian" for electrical. If it's all the same company it is reasonable to expect them to coordinate together.

[Buster]

Good luck, I still have PTSD.

https://forums.beyond.ca/threads/397320-Buster-s-Reno-Thread

[max_boost]

Good luck, I still have PTSD.

https://forums.beyond.ca/threads/397320-Buster-s-Reno-Thread

Can you bump that and update with pics? Looks boss.

[Buster]

Can you bump that and update with pics? Looks boss.

I can do some update pics, sure.

[Rocket1k78]

I would just avoid anyone who sub-contracts (or sometimes even sub-sub contracts), as most of the time it is the cheapest, worst possible trade they can possibly find. I have been burned 3 times by this now on major work. Manager comes in, makes himself sound all quality-oriented, etc. and maybe he is but he does NONE of the work. Then, in come all these guys who appear to have zero actual construction experience and do an unbelievably poor job (whatever the cheapest labor he could find I am sure). Then, you want him to fix all the problems and guess who shows up to "fix" it"? Never again.

Either get one guy who can do most/all of it himself or hire specific trades for each piece and make sure the guys you are talking to and are comfortable with are the actual ones doing the work.

This is not fact but i would bet any legit GC is going to have sub contractors working for him, yeah there are guys out there who hire shit guys but thats where you have to do your homework and being burned 3 times sounds like you didnt or hired the cheapest guys. And your last comment about hiring one guy that can do most or all the work is pretty crazy imo There definitely are guys out there that can do it all but you cant compare the level of work to a guy who specializes in that particular trade.

[bjstare]

This is not fact but i would bet any legit GC is going to have sub contractors working for him, yeah there are guys out there who hire shit guys but thats where you have to do your homework and being burned 3 times sounds like you didnt or hired the cheapest guys. And your last comment about hiring one guy that can do most or all the work is pretty crazy imo There definitely are guys out there that can do it all but you cant compare the level of work to a guy who specializes in that particular trade.

Agreed 100%.

If you hire a guy that does it all, none of it will be done well. Also wrt renos/trades workers, like most other things, you get what you pay for.

[KPHMPH]

I have to say we are doing a house right now and are acting as the general contractor. Usually after we get 3 quotes from the time for the time one of the guys comes in to finish is about 4 days. They are pretty efficient when working under us.
I’m also do a bunch of the work when I get home from work and the other half is doing most of the work because he doesn’t really work...

Pics for attention

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v76/bonder45/F3F265CF-0290-45C3-A97D-8309CC03DE60_zpsnqvi4cju.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v76/bonder45/6ADCA8D1-F7C4-494E-B4D5-95DFDEE3E5FA_zps9zvkinyj.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v76/bonder45/5091B7B5-DE1E-45BB-9C55-D6A642A29592_zps2y57nklp.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v76/bonder45/578C253E-BF99-49F6-8F6A-4C577D9EEB71_zpsgvjwwkat.jpg

[Disoblige]

^^ What's up with the cabinet spacing near the ceiling? Is it just the photo or is it not level?

[KPHMPH]

Toes and soffits still need to be installed, plus the lighting makes it wonky.

[Mitsu3000gt]

This is not fact but i would bet any legit GC is going to have sub contractors working for him, yeah there are guys out there who hire shit guys but thats where you have to do your homework and being burned 3 times sounds like you didnt or hired the cheapest guys. And your last comment about hiring one guy that can do most or all the work is pretty crazy imo There definitely are guys out there that can do it all but you cant compare the level of work to a guy who specializes in that particular trade.

My building flooded 3 times, I was on the condo board (and I had an affected unit), our choice of "approved" contractors were limited, and I did not have the only say in the matter (most people just want it done ASAP and don't care about quality). If it were my own home (or if I had the only say) you can bet I would be doing 10x the due diligence. The only people you deal with before signing are the managers who swear up & down how they only care about quality. Then in come their high school employees to do all the work or just F-around all day and clearly don't want to be there. This is all behind me now but some of the things my security cameras caught was unbelievable (literal discussions about how to make it look like they did work when they didn't, "hope we don't get caught", etc.). Hardwood contractor (West Valley Carpet & Flooring) was in my unit over 10 times before I changed my locks and demanded a payout so I could get the work done properly.

My parents have twice used one guy to do major renovations except for very specialist things (electrical, plumbing) and it takes a way longer time but the work has been vastly superior to any GC work I have ever seen. I am super anal and the work was phenomenal each time. I'm sure there are exceptions everywhere but that has been my experience. I would never use a GC again without talking to each of his sub contractors (the actual ones doing the work), finding references, etc.

[el_fefes]

Good luck, I still have PTSD.

https://forums.beyond.ca/threads/397320-Buster-s-Reno-Thread

Holy shit, that's an extensive reno. It looks great man...I can see why it was stressful.

Looks like you probably had the trades working on your place even when you were away? Any issues with that? We would be living in the house during the renos.

I see the convenience of having a GC in that we would only be dealing with one person and would probably get it done quicker....but at the same time it's more $$.

[Rocket1k78]

our choice of "approved" contractors were limited, and I did not have the only say in the matter (most people just want it done ASAP and don't care about quality)

So because you had a limited list of GC's(who use subs) to choose from you go and lump all GC's(who use subs) in the same pile? And you said so yourself they just wanted it done and didnt care about quality so i doubt much due diligence was put in with choosing the GC lol


My parents have twice used one guy to do major renovations except for very specialist things (electrical, plumbing) and it takes a way longer time but the work has been vastly superior to any GC work I have ever seen. I am super anal and the work was phenomenal each time. I'm sure there are exceptions everywhere but that has been my experience. I would never use a GC again without talking to each of his sub contractors (the actual ones doing the work), finding references, etc.

Im not trying to be a total dick but cmon man. You're vouching for all the hack do it alls because you had 2 good experiences with one guy?
Your expectations about meeting the GC's subs are also not real either unless you get a small guy who only has one guy for each trade because they wouldnt know the schedule for your house until after youve signed. I would also bet most Gc's are going to walk or add in an extra cost if you wanted to grill their trades lol

[Buster]

Holy shit, that's an extensive reno. It looks great man...I can see why it was stressful.

Looks like you probably had the trades working on your place even when you were away? Any issues with that? We would be living in the house during the renos.

I see the convenience of having a GC in that we would only be dealing with one person and would probably get it done quicker....but at the same time it's more $$.

I just kept two houses while we did the reno. Was easier.

I also have the ability to be around the house as much as I want, essentially.

[Mitsu3000gt]

So because you had a limited list of GC's(who use subs) to choose from you go and lump all GC's(who use subs) in the same pile? And you said so yourself they just wanted it done and didnt care about quality so i doubt much due diligence was put in with choosing the GC lol



Im not trying to be a total dick but cmon man. You're vouching for all the hack do it alls because you had 2 good experiences with one guy?
Your expectations about meeting the GC's subs are also not real either unless you get a small guy who only has one guy for each trade because they wouldnt know the schedule for your house until after youve signed. I would also bet most Gc's are going to walk or add in an extra cost if you wanted to grill their trades lol

Umm no? When did I say all GC's were the same? Most people make decisions based on their personal experiences. Mine includes 3 *different* GC's, and two *different* "one man" operations. My 3 GC experiences were absolute nightmares extending 6 months long each time, and my single contractor experiences were excellent. That was my experience, YMMV. I also said "I'm sure there are exceptions everywhere but that has been my experience." which was specifically included to stress the fact that I am not trying to paint all GC's with one brush.

The GC's I met with all swore up & down about how they do the highest quality work, employ the highest quality trades, blah blah blah. Then you never see them again, and if you have problems, they don't come look at it themselves they just tell the subs to go back and fix it. Everyone they sent to do work looked to be doing the work just for a summer high school job, or did not speak English so I could not communicate with them. These were not experienced tradespeople. They showed me binders full of pictures of their work with no close-ups so nobody could possibly evaluate it (that is probably normal). Short of personally visiting prior work these guys did (and if I did, how could I possibly be sure which sub-contractor individuals did the actual work?), there wasn't a lot more that could be done and I didn't have veto power anyway. After many months, each time it ended with me refusing to allow anyone into my condo anymore, and taking a payout to get the work done myself by someone who didn't subcontract all their work out. I also did some of the work myself because with zero experience, limited tools, and YouTube to guide me, I did a better job than anyone they had working on my unit.

If you have multiple bad experiences with one method, and good experiences with another method, I think it's reasonable to stick to what has worked for you in the past rather than keep rolling the dice. If you find one guy (or a small team, whatever) of guys who can do most of the work, their commitment to quality is more likely to be applied to all aspects of the job (that has been my experience anyway). The trade off is it can take longer (though in my case the GC's took longer because they had to re-do the work 5 times). When you have different crews working on different things, there is a greater chance that you run into a sub that you don't like because as you say, no GC is going to let you go and meet all their trades, check out their work individually, etc. For general work I find this works very well, and as I said earlier for the specialties like plumbing/electrical you will likely need another contractor unless the work is basic.

[speedog]

Renovations, to use a GC or not?

Being sort of in that business, I have worked with a number of GC's over the past few years. There are some I would consider great and whom hire great subs but there are others I'd stay far away from.

Can you save money by not having a GC - sure but unless you're really knowledgeable in all things with respect to the construction industry you'll probably cost yourself more money in the end or have some subpar work done. About fifteen years ago, our neighbor two doors south of us renovated their home and used a GC, everything turned out fabulously and no hitches. Our neighbor directly to the north also did a partial renovation and addition but decided to be their own GC and there was no end of problems.

They found trades by just walking around the community and man did it show. The guys they hired to build their basement addition were complete fools - on the day the concrete arrived the wall forms started coming apart when the concrete was going in. Better yet, the fools jumped down there to shore things up. Then they didn't move/tamp the concrete well enough and when the forms were removed it was a crumbly mess where the new basement windows were to go. Best of all was the neighbor calling up the natural gas company the day of the pour and requested that his gas service be moved to a different place. - the gas company basically laughed at him for such late notice and the new basement walls were poured around the existing gas service. Having a competent GC would've most likely eliminated all of these headaches.

Btw, every GC I've dealt with utilizes subs - yah, they'll have some direct reports (general carpentry, handy man kind of guy) but things like tile or hardwood flooring, cabinets, plumbing, electrical, HVAC and finish carpentry are usually sub'ed out. Sure, a jack of all trades can do a lot but it will show in the end product.

[Rocket1k78]

Umm no? When did I say all GC's were the same?

LOL really? See your post below. Telling people to avoid any gc because of your couple incidents is pretty much saying theyre all the same no?
I dont know why you keep arguing because your experiences with GC's was not even the norm, you had to pick from a small list of contractors that you didnt get to research, you had a bunch of other owners just wanting the work done so they rushed it and in the end it wasnt even your OWN choice who to hire because there mustve been a vote or something with so many people involved. The reason you had 3 bad experiences is because you pretty much had little to no say about who to hire each time


I would just avoid anyone who sub-contracts (or sometimes even sub-sub contracts), as most of the time it is the cheapest, worst possible trade they can possibly find.

[Mitsu3000gt]

LOL really? See your post below. Telling people to avoid any gc because of your couple incidents is pretty much saying theyre all the same no?
I dont know why you keep arguing because your experiences with GC's was not even the norm, you had to pick from a small list of contractors that you didnt get to research, you had a bunch of other owners just wanting the work done so they rushed it and in the end it wasnt even your OWN choice who to hire because there mustve been a vote or something with so many people involved. The reason you had 3 bad experiences is because you pretty much had little to no say about who to hire each time

I said I personally would avoid GC's (I did not say "you" or "everyone" or "people" should avoid GC's" like you accused me of). You further assumed that they were all the same contractor. My experience is based on multiple unique accounts using both GC's and individuals. I feel like I explained why pretty thoroughly. Sorry if you misunderstood something. As I have also said multiple times now, YMMV and I'm sure there are exceptions everywhere but that has been my experience. I have only had bad experiences with GC's and only good experience with individuals, so for my next job I will hire an individual again for all of the less specialized work. Someone who had an amazing experience with a GC would probably go the GC route - I don't get what's hard to understand about that. We're all just here sharing our experiences for the benefit of the OP, he can weigh them and make up his own mind. Anyways you seem rather passionate about this issue that is of incredibly minor importance, so I assume you are a GC or have one in the family? If so I did not mean to offend.

Regardless of how they came about, if you have had multiple bad experiences with option A and only good experiences with option B, what are you going to pick next time? I don't think it's that hard to see my side of things based on my experiences. I'm not going to roll the dice on something that important.

[Rocket1k78]

I said I personally would avoid GC's (I did not say "you" or "everyone" or "people" should avoid GC's" like you accused me of). You further assumed that they were all the same contractor. My experience is based on multiple unique accounts using both GC's and individuals. I feel like I explained why pretty thoroughly. Sorry if you misunderstood something. As I have also said multiple times now, YMMV and I'm sure there are exceptions everywhere but that has been my experience. I have only had bad experiences with GC's and only good experience with individuals, so for my next job I will hire an individual again for all of the less specialized work. Someone who had an amazing experience with a GC would probably go the GC route - I don't get what's hard to understand about that. We're all just here sharing our experiences for the benefit of the OP, he can weigh them and make up his own mind. Anyways you seem rather passionate about this issue that is of incredibly minor importance, so I assume you are a GC or have one in the family? If so I did not mean to offend.

Regardless of how they came about, if you have had multiple bad experiences with option A and only good experiences with option B, what are you going to pick next time? I don't think it's that hard to see my side of things based on my experiences. I'm not going to roll the dice on something that important.

Its a slow day so please forgive me for all this lol
Doesnt really matter how you say it but coming into a thread and saying you would avoid gc's and stating that most do cheap work is going to give some people the thought that they really are all no good. Theres nothing wrong with posting experiences and giving feedback but i dont agree with your post and to most its not comparable. You might have had 3 different bad experiences with gc's in your building but of the 3 how many did you get to go out and hand pick vs. having multiple owners vote from a pre selected list?

My bad for keeping this going but i just dont find it fair to post your personal experiences when you didnt really get to choose the crew to do the work. I also have a feeling you're one of "those customers" lol

Sorry for the jack OP.

[Mitsu3000gt]

Its a slow day so please forgive me for all this lol
Doesnt really matter how you say it but coming into a thread and saying you would avoid gc's and stating that most do cheap work is going to give some people the thought that they really are all no good. Theres nothing wrong with posting experiences and giving feedback but i dont agree with your post and to most its not comparable. You might have had 3 different bad experiences with gc's in your building but of the 3 how many did you get to go out and hand pick vs. having multiple owners vote from a pre selected list?

My bad for keeping this going but i just dont find it fair to post your personal experiences when you didnt really get to choose the crew to do the work. I also have a feeling you're one of "those customers" lol

Sorry for the jack OP.

Why are my experiences invalid? 18 combined months (3 separate incidents X approx. 6 months each) with trades coming in and out of my house and dealing with the GC is not enough experience for you? I'd venture a guess that is probably more experience than most others have (or want, for that matter). We used large GC's that anyone could go out and hire, and they give you the same song & dance that every GC would regarding quality, timely completions, etc. It's very hard to know if it's all BS or not until after you've already hired them. I am guessing most people do not physically visit their previous work sites, and therefore wouldn't have had much more to go on than we did (the guy's word basically). Our condo management company also vouched for these guys, claimed to have been happy with them for previous similar work, etc. which I know went a long way towards convincing some board members.

If you think I am one of "those" customers, I will post some pictures and you can let me know if the work (and property damage) I received would be acceptable in your home :)

[ExtraSlow]

Your experience is invalid because it contradicts his opinion. That's how the internet works.

[Mitsu3000gt]

Your experience is invalid because it contradicts his opinion. That's how the internet works.

That is quite clear to me now :)



I also have a feeling you're one of "those customers"

This level of work would all be acceptable in your own home then I take it? Or would you just sign off and pay the bill with a smile on your face to avoid being one of "those customers"?

Keep in mind this work was all billed as complete, and is only a small sample:


https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-CMSPb7j/0/f6a9fe78/XL/i-CMSPb7j-XL.jpg

Much of my floor looked like this:
https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-mwZzv79/0/0de5bd67/XL/i-mwZzv79-XL.jpg

They tried to tell me this was the same transition (the hardwood manufacturer confirmed it was not - it is a different size, shape, stain, and grain), and then to "fix" it, they came into my house, and taped up all my transitions with painters tape just to make me think they did work and I wouldn't notice a second time that they in fact did nothing. Afterwards they walked up and destroyed my security camera, and the last 10 seconds of audio before it died recorded them saying "good thing you found that".

https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-Xx8KHWM/0/e205bbbd/XL/i-Xx8KHWM-XL.jpg

Cabinet trim:
https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-8vFH9JK/0/e8310a2b/XL/i-8vFH9JK-XL.jpg

Cabinet backing:
https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-kC5vPFV/0/b62e22be/XL/i-kC5vPFV-XL.jpg

Transition:
https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-k3cj4fV/0/45c11aea/XL/i-k3cj4fV-XL.jpg

[suntan]

Did you pay them?

[Mitsu3000gt]

Did you pay them?

They got something from my building's insurance company, I have no idea what. In this instance, 13 units flooded including mine, and they were awarded the contract for the complete renovation. The building's insurance company was paying, so by not signing I maintained the only piece of leverage I had (if anyone else find themselves in this situation, DO NOT sign anything until you are 100% satisfied). I never signed off on the work until they were 100% gone and I was paid. I asked for a payout equal to what it would cost me to have it re-done properly plus to repair all the damage they did (they scratched the sh*t out of my my beer fridge too), to replace my security camera, and for what it cost me to change my locks. As soon as they found out I had a security camera, they paid me immediately without even seeing the footage which tells me they already knew what kind of people they were sending to the job site. Then I had it all fixed in very short order on my own, as I was tired of living in a construction zone for ~6 months give or take. And this happened two other times over a period of 7 years - the floods were always the fault of an individual leaving a window open in the winter, nothing to do with the building. Dealing with those trades were probably the biggest headaches and highest stress times in my life to date.

Another fun fact about these types of claims, they only have to restore your place to original spec, so if you did any upgrades or renos yourself in the interim, you don't get those back - you get whatever the building had in it when it was built (or something of the same value). There is also zero punishment laid on the offending unit who is responsible for things like this.

But what do I know, my experiences with GC's and their trades are invalid ;)

[Rocket1k78]

Why are my experiences invalid? 18 combined months (3 separate incidents X approx. 6 months each) with trades coming in and out of my house and dealing with the GC is not enough experience for you?


of the 3 how many did you get to go out and hand pick vs. having multiple owners vote from a pre selected list?
OP has full choice to research and pick any GC out there and the most important part is he gets the FINAL say. Since you wont answer my question about how many you personally got to research/pick yourself is it safe to assume none since this was a condo? You said so yourself you had a limited list to choose from and even if you found one you wanted(out of a pre selected list)you didnt get the final say because it was most likely voted on right? The reason you had 18 months/3 separate bad experiences is because you didnt get to research and pick the crew you wanted, not your fault at all of course.


Your experience is invalid because it contradicts his opinion. That's how the internet works.

Contradictions and false advice is what makes the internet go round right:rofl::rofl:https://forums.beyond.ca/threads/407380-Dealership-maintenance-service?p=4729427#post4729427

[bjstare]

So in summary, the take home point here is: don't buy a condo. :rofl:

[ExtraSlow]

Contradictions and false advice is what makes the internet go round right:rofl::rofl:https://forums.beyond.ca/threads/407380-Dealership-maintenance-service?p=4729427#post4729427 Yes.

[Rocket1k78]

So in summary, the take home point here is: don't buy a condo. :rofl:

BAHAHAHAHA well played. Condo life can be nice and even though you own the place you kinda dont with all the rules.

[Mitsu3000gt]

OP has full choice to research and pick any GC out there and the most important part is he gets the FINAL say. Since you wont answer my question about how many you personally got to research/pick yourself is it safe to assume none since this was a condo? You said so yourself you had a limited list to choose from and even if you found one you wanted(out of a pre selected list)you didnt get the final say because it was most likely voted on right? The reason you had 18 months/3 separate bad experiences is because you didnt get to research and pick the crew you wanted, not your fault at all of course.
[/url]

I didn't have a final say in anything - I mentioned before I didn't have veto power. The only power I really had was refusing to sign anything until the work was done right, and it never was, so I eventually took payouts. The board gets identical presentations from a handful of GC's and has to pick one, it might as well have been at random. The board was given a handful of GC's recommended by our Management Company and insurance company due to apparent positive previous experiences, if I recall it was 3-5 each time. We had a policy that we never made any decision before evaluating at least 3 options. We met each one (they personally came in to assess the units including mine and I had long conversations with all of them), saw photo books of their work which show zero detail, photocopied referrals from previous clients, etc. They aren't going to give you referrals without knowing it will be positive so those are kind of useless anyway. They all presented themselves well and swore up & down about how good they were - and maybe they were, the problem is these guys never set foot in your home again. They could also show me some amazing work they did 5 years ago, but if the subs who did it have different employees now, it is completely worthless. There's just too many moving parts to really do excellent due diligence, at least within the realm of reasonableness. I did not originally object to the GC's we chose, like I said it might as well have been at random because they all give you identical presentations about how good they are.

Visiting peoples homes they previously worked on and tracking down their individual subcontractors is not a reasonable thing to do, and they likely wouldn't share those names with us anyhow - as soon as they control what you get to see, that referral loses all it's weight. Had I gone out and picked a different company, they would have given us the identical song & dance. At the end of it all, in my mind each GC had an equal chance of being good or bad because they all show and tell you the EXACT same things. I can't honestly say I wouldn't have picked the same one if it was solely my decision because there was nothing distinguishing them. We did not pick the cheapest one either, hoping quality would be a bit better. And since they subcontract, if those subcontractor's staff changes (sometimes they sub-sub contract so far that it's like Inception) even the GC might not know that his staff has changed from competent to incompetent. There is only so much you can do. The fact that we got burned 3 times in a row at least tells me that there are a lot of bad trades out there and it's difficult to be confident in your choice when every single one has the exact same presentation for you.

I also wasn't the only one complaining, everyone had issues, some even worse than mine. I'm sure they hated re-doing much of their work, who wouldn't? but nobody in their right mind would have accepted that quality of work, so of course they are going to have to come back and re-do it, and each time they do I'm sure they are even less motivated to do a good job. They never sent new guys to re-do the work, always the same guys who didn't do it properly the first time around.

What would you have suggested we did differently? Track down the addresses of their previous clients and find out which individuals working for their subs were still working for them, and then check out those individuals' work? That would probably be the only way to know for sure. If you just meet with the GC, they aren't going to show you a single thing that doesn't paint them in the best light. We could have interviewed 50 more GC's and we would have got 50 more identical presentations with photo books, referrals, etc. that THEY control. All the while we have over a dozen people out of their homes wondering when renovations will start and the insurance companies paying for some people to live in hotels, so you can't spend 6 months tracking down every sub from every GC.

When you have dozens of guys working ultra-high turnover sub (or sub-sub) trade jobs, it's extremely difficult to do proper due diligence and be comfortable with quality control. From what I saw, it looked like they sub-contracted down to the fresh out of high school / FOB level or whatever level would accept the lowest pay (which doesn't matter if they do good work but they didn't) for maximum cost savings. Because it was a bigger job, maybe they thought they could get away with sending us their B-team, who knows.

And yes, to cjblair's point, this is one reason I probably will never buy a condo again :) At least not one with baseboard hot water heating.

[Rocket1k78]

I didn't have a final say in anything

And that was my whole point.

[Mitsu3000gt]

And that was my whole point.

Did you bother to read what I wrote? My decision wouldn't have been any different even if I did because everyone gives you the exact same presentation and will only show you materials and references that paint them in the best possible light. We picked from multiple GC's and we did not ever pick the cheapest one. Nobody is going to give you a complete customer list and let you pick at random someone to call for a reference, or give you a list of their sub contractors so you can chase down every single individual and check their work also at random.

You also did not answer my question - all this and you have not offered a single suggestion on what could be done differently when every GC gives you the exact same song & dance, has a revolving door of subs, etc. All you've done is tell me that after all my experience and detailed explanation, it's somehow completely invalid because it differs from your personal opinion :rofl: Ok then.

[Rocket1k78]

Did you bother to read what I wrote? My decision wouldn't have been any different even if I did because everyone gives you the exact same presentation and will only show you materials and references that paint them in the best possible light. We picked from multiple GC's and we did not ever pick the cheapest one. Nobody is going to give you a complete customer list and let you pick at random someone to call for a reference, or give you a list of their sub contractors so you can chase down every single individual and check their work also at random.

You also did not answer my question - all this and you have not offered a single suggestion on what could be done differently when every GC gives you the exact same song & dance, has a revolving door of subs, etc. All you've done is tell me that after all my experience and detailed explanation, it's somehow completely invalid because it differs from your personal opinion :rofl: Ok then.


Lets say you're craving breakfast bad and you decide to go on a guided breakfast tour of Calgary with a bunch of random people and i only gave you guys dennys, humptys or mcdonalds as choices, then you guys all had to vote or pull straws to decide which one. While the straws are being pulled you have people who are starving and just want to eat so theyre just picking the fastest option without realizing how good the food will be. And since no one read the fine print of my tour i only list mediocre restaurants because i want to keep my costs down. While the restaurant is trying to serve your large group there are multiple people complaining its taking too long so the staff have no choice but to rush and are getting fed up too so service is going to suffer. Do you think you're going to have a good breakfast and would it be fair to say all breakfast places suck?

There was not a thing you could've done differently because you live in a condo and when it comes to things like this your hands are beyond tied and you dont have the same choices as a home owner would.

[msommers]

So in summary, the take home point here is: don't buy a condo. :rofl:

From what I know now... absolutely. I'll never tell my kids to buy a condo, save more and buy a house instead. Condo fees and not really living in your own space has killed condo living for me. Maybe if I was in a baller high-rise with a 30th floor view facing the mountains it'd be alright but for us plebs, it's more annoying than anything.

More to the OP, I had an insurance claim through our building's insirance as one pipe had a small leak and destroyed a small section of flooring. I didn't get to choose who they sent out to do the job but I did get great guys so it all depends.

Lots of great tradespeople out there and a family friend of ours design and gc homes. They almost closed up shop because they were fixing so many contractors mistakes themselves. Now they have a solid crew and are so much less stressed - reliable and consistent work makes everyone happy.

So whether GC or individual trades, it comes down to reputation. Depending on the size of the job I'd probably hire a reputable GC than attempt to find multiple reliable trades.

I can see why Mitsu is mad, that kind of work would make my blood boil too.

[bjstare]

From what I know now... absolutely. I'll never tell my kids to buy a condo, save more and buy a house instead. Condo fees and not really living in your own space has killed condo living for me. Maybe if I was in a baller high-rise with a 30th floor view facing the mountains it'd be alright but for us plebs, it's more annoying than anything.

That's what my parents did for me. My dad taught me to avoid them like the plague. After owning my first home, I thought it'd be a good idea to buy a unit in an infill 4-plex that was run with a tiny little HOA (the 4 owners); he tried to warn me about it, but I thought it'd be fine. ffwd a few months, and you guessed it, he was right - that place had more than it's fair share of headaches. Sold it and bought a house again after 18 months.

Not saying condos don't work for some people. I just know they don't work for me.

[CompletelyNumb]

I can confirm everything mitsu has posted here as being my experience with condos as well.

The dude rebutting him is either just a troll, or has a lottery win of luck in his own condo.

[Buster]

That's what my parents did for me. My dad taught me to avoid them like the plague. After owning my first home, I thought it'd be a good idea to buy a unit in an infill 4-plex that was run with a tiny little HOA (the 4 owners); he tried to warn me about it, but I thought it'd be fine. ffwd a few months, and you guessed it, he was right - that place had more than it's fair share of headaches. Sold it and bought a house again after 18 months.

Not saying condos don't work for some people. I just know they don't work for me.

Yup

I'm surprised at how many people are willing to spend $1.5MM or more on a house that shares a wall, just to be inner city. Never, never, never.

[ExtraSlow]

Yup

I'm surprised at how many people are willing to spend $1.5MM or more on a house that shares a wall, just to be inner city. Never, never, never.I didn't spend anything like $1.5m, not even half that, but to be honest, sharing a wall has been a total non-issue with my duplex house. Can't hear anything from neighbors.

[Mitsu3000gt]

Lets say you're craving breakfast bad and you decide to go on a guided breakfast tour of Calgary with a bunch of random people and i only gave you guys dennys, humptys or mcdonalds as choices, then you guys all had to vote or pull straws to decide which one. While the straws are being pulled you have people who are starving and just want to eat so theyre just picking the fastest option without realizing how good the food will be. And since no one read the fine print of my tour i only list mediocre restaurants because i want to keep my costs down. While the restaurant is trying to serve your large group there are multiple people complaining its taking too long so the staff have no choice but to rush and are getting fed up too so service is going to suffer. Do you think you're going to have a good breakfast and would it be fair to say all breakfast places suck?

There was not a thing you could've done differently because you live in a condo and when it comes to things like this your hands are beyond tied and you dont have the same choices as a home owner would.

The issue with your analogy is that we did not start off with poorly reviewed, bottom of the barrel places (aka the fast food equivalent of GC's, if I am understanding your analogy correctly). Also, each of the 3 times this happened, we picked from a different pool of GC's, so the overall sample size was much higher. Each GC provided an in-person consultation with the GC manager (or whoever was overseeing the project), photo books of previous work, testimonials from previous clients, and referrals from the insurance company and the condo management company based on (supposed) good prior experiences. It's extremely annoying for both the management company and the insurance company if the GC is bad at his job, so it's also in their best interest to provide accurate recommendations where possible. Further to that, we did not pick the cheapest quote in any of the instances, and the price differences were significant. While we did not pick at random, we might as well have, because like I said the presentations were all identical and it's virtually impossible to do meaningful due diligence on dozens of subs from 3-5 different GC outfits, even if we had months to do so.

My point was that in order to do any meaningful due diligence, I would first have to get a list of his sub-contractors, track down the actual individuals doing the work, and investigate each of them individually (finding references that they do not provide me with, viewing their work that they have not pre-selected, etc.) And that's just for one single GC - there were several we would have to do that for, and by the time we finished them all, they would probably have new employees because turnover is so high. Even without a time crunch, does that sound reasonable to you? The problem I had with GC's every time is that nobody you talk to is actually doing the work, and the people doing the work may not be the same people who did the work that their glowing reference is referencing, or their photo books are displaying. The GC manager might be the best, most detail oriented guy ever - but then they send in the minimum wage labor to do the work and hope people don't notice the shoddy work, or accept poor work because they don't want to wait another 6 months to move back into their home.

You'd be in the same boat whether it was a big condo job or a single home renovation - doing meaningful due diligence on sub (or sub-sub) contractors would be incredibly difficult, not to mention extremely time consuming if you could even get their information from the GC in the first place.

I'll ask again - if it was just me, and it was not time sensitive, what would you suggest I do for due diligence when evaluating dozens of different, individual sub contractors? Because talking to the GC or project manager themselves is worthless.

Also what is your experience with GC's? I've talked to 10+ and used 3 of them over a combined period of approximately 18 months. You have yet to mention your own experience(s), how you went about sub-contractor due diligence, how long you spent on the decision, etc.

[Rocket1k78]

I can confirm everything mitsu has posted here as being my experience with condos as well.

The dude rebutting him is either just a troll, or has a lottery win of luck in his own condo.

I think you're referring to me but i never said anything about mitsu's experiences being false lol I 100% believe him that he got screwed over




My bad for using the bottom of the barrel places lol it was for effect bahaha My point is still the same though, you didnt get to go out and pick your own GC(You had to pick from a "limited choice" as you said) and you had a bunch of other tenants that were involved too. When people are complaining and just wanting things done the overall work quality has to suffer.

If i was doing a big reno and wanted to hire a gc im going to come on here first LOL and then talk to friends. Once ive found 2 or 3 guys i potentially want to hire im going to google his company to see how long theyve been around and check out potential reviews. Theres a bunch of other questions to ask too but for me if i was doing a big reno im going to want to see a job thats near completion.

To clear things up i am not doubting your experiences at all and the pics show horrendous work. All im trying to say is your situation is different from OP's because you live in a condo and you dont really get to make the decisions on things like this and with a bunch of other owners in the mix complaining and rushing things(like you said) theres no way the quality of work can be there.

[Mitsu3000gt]

I think you're referring to me but i never said anything about mitsu's experiences being false lol I 100% believe him that he got screwed over



My bad for using the bottom of the barrel places lol it was for effect bahaha My point is still the same though, you didnt get to go out and pick your own GC(You had to pick from a "limited choice" as you said) and you had a bunch of other tenants that were involved too. When people are complaining and just wanting things done the overall work quality has to suffer.

If i was doing a big reno and wanted to hire a gc im going to come on here first LOL and then talk to friends. Once ive found 2 or 3 guys i potentially want to hire im going to google his company to see how long theyve been around and check out potential reviews. Theres a bunch of other questions to ask too but for me if i was doing a big reno im going to want to see a job thats near completion.

To clear things up i am not doubting your experiences at all and the pics show horrendous work. All im trying to say is your situation is different from OP's because you live in a condo and you dont really get to make the decisions on things like this and with a bunch of other owners in the mix complaining and rushing things(like you said) theres no way the quality of work can be there.

So, you would do the exact same due diligence we did, but with even fewer GC's in the pool? I am not sure how you would be any better off. The GC isn't going to let you go look at a job that isn't showcasing his work in the best light (they may not let you on a job-in-progress as well, it would be too easy to be like "oh yeah, we're going to fix that - it's ongoing work blah blah blah). We had referrals, we checked reviews. The worst of the GC's currently has 4.2/5 on Google Reviews right now - that's pretty darn good for any online review given that most people who write reviews are unhappy. The reviews could be fake, but who knows. The guys who could not properly install my hardwood and had to come back more than 5 times before I kicked them out (the ones who wrecked my security camera and pretended to re-do my transitions) have 4.8/5 on Google Reviews with 64 reviews. We talked with each of the GC's for over an hour, specifically focusing on quality of work, how are disputes/issues handled, etc. (especially based on our prior negative experiences which they pretend to sympathize with) and they feed you as much BS as you can possibly handle (nobody would never say anything bad about their company anyway so even this process is borderline pointless). Further to this, I had individual meetings with them in my condo specifically going over the work required and setting expectations.

The ONLY way I see that you can do meaningful due diligence with a GC is to track down every individual sub contractors work, randomly view some of their jobs that they don't direct you to, randomly talk to previous clients, and further ensure that those exact individuals will be the ones working on your property. That would be incredibly difficult to accomplish, isn't realistic, and they probably wouldn't even allow it. Beyond that, you're just taking someone's word for it one way or another, or viewing something that has already been vetted by the owner and guaranteed to paint the company in a positive light.

I'll ask again what your experience with GC's has been? I have had 3 separate nightmare experiences doing more due diligence than you recommend, using companies with 4+ star reviews, personally meeting them, checking referrals, etc. Every problem is traced back to the bottom of the barrel subs they send in to maximize profit. The individuals I spoke with gave me the impression that they personally would do good work, but they don't ever set food in your place again. They give you the impression that everyone they work with does the same quality work, when in reality they send in the bottom of the barrel, or I imagine whoever will work for the least. I am guessing it's cheaper for them to do shoddy work and re-do some of it than do a good job once.

I know you're not doubting my experiences, but you still haven't mentioned what your personal experience with GC's have been, and when I asked what due diligence you would do, it seems to be even less than we did. Even learning from the first two times we got burned, it did not protect us from a third negative experience. With so many people involved (dozens, with all the subs and sub-subs), there is only so much you can do for due diligence, and the more people involved, the more uncertainty there is and the more you are relying on word of mouth which is pretty much worthless when it's coming from the guys fighting for your business.

[Rocket1k78]

So, you would do the exact same due diligence we did, but with even fewer GC's in the pool?

No, im going to take my time and look at a bunch first and then narrow my list down and when i get to a couple that i like thats when im going to spend the time to really check them out.
I know you're pissed off and i would be too but you have to admit your situation is not the norm when it comes to hiring trades.

I have no personal experience with GC's but my brother has built custom inner city homes using GC's and my in laws are just wrapping up a major reno using a different gc, there have been hiccups but fortunately they always get taken care of. Theres no way my bro wouldve kept building if he was doing this on his own because he owns a different company and same goes for my in laws.

All im trying to say is not all GC's who hire subs are bad and do shit work.

[Mitsu3000gt]

No, im going to take my time and look at a bunch first and then narrow my list down and when i get to a couple that i like thats when im going to spend the time to really check them out.
I know you're pissed off and i would be too but you have to admit your situation is not the norm when it comes to hiring trades.

I have no personal experience with GC's but my brother has built custom inner city homes using GC's and my in laws are just wrapping up a major reno using a different gc, there have been hiccups but fortunately they always get taken care of. Theres no way my bro wouldve kept building if he was doing this on his own because he owns a different company and same goes for my in laws.

All im trying to say is not all GC's who hire subs are bad and do shit work.

Yes, that is exactly what we did - I still don't understand what your hypothetical situation is doing differently than our process of getting referrals, reading reviews, checking out prior work, and interviewing the project managers both collectively and individually in the affected units. We had long discussions on how issues would be handled, quality, etc - nobody is going to say anything other than what you want to hear so it's pointless anyway, but we did it. After that, we still did not pick the cheapest quote thinking that we might be getting better quality work for the dollar.

Are you going to track down every one of the individual subs & sub-subs, get a list of their completed work, and randomly pick completed job sites to go visit? I don't believe that is reasonable or possible, and that would have been the only thing we could have possibly done in addition to what we already did. If they have any control over which jobs you get to look at, which references you can call, etc. they are worthless and you might as well just be taking their word for it. Online reviews, as I have seen 3 times over now, are just one small part of the due diligence process but cannot be given much weight. You can call someone from a year ago who was thrilled with their work, but how do you know exactly which individuals working for the subs did that client's work? How can you guarantee those same individuals will be the ones doing your work?

Nobody has ever said all GC's are bad, so that much is a moot point. You have to admit that doing MEANINGFUL due diligence on a GC who uses subs and sub-subs is virtually impossible unless you want to go tracking down numerous different individuals, and then do that again for every GC you evaluate. Further, you need to then ensure that all the subs & sub-subs that you investigated are the exact individuals showing up to do the actual work. By the time you're done all that, some of the subs probably won't even be the same and you'll have to do it all over again. The longer you take to make a decision, the higher the chance that some of the employees working for the subs or sub-subs have changed. At some point you are going to have to make a decision and it's never going to be a guarantee. You can hire the best GC there is, but if one of their subs or sub-subs swaps out an employee for someone who isn't good and sends them to the job, you get poor work. Keeping track of a small army of people is probably just as difficult for the GC as it is for the client.

[Rocket1k78]

we

And thats why im saying your situation will be completely different from op's. He gets to make ALL the decisions, where you had little to no say because there were so many people involved(condo board, condo management and who knows how many owners). You can also hire an amazing company but you throw in a bunch of different owners complaining about this or that and rushing things(as you said) you'd better believe work quality is going to suffer.



Nobody has ever said all GC's are bad
I know that, were talking heatedly :angel:because you said all gc's who sub contract are bad and im saying theyre not lol see below


I would just avoid anyone who sub-contracts

[Mitsu3000gt]

And thats why im saying your situation will be completely different from op's. He gets to make ALL the decisions, where you had little to no say because there were so many people involved(condo board, condo management and who knows how many owners). You can also hire an amazing company but you throw in a bunch of different owners complaining about this or that and rushing things(as you said) you'd better believe work quality is going to suffer.



I know that, were talking heatedly :angel:because you said all gc's who sub contract are bad and im saying theyre not lol see below

I said that I wouldn't have made a different decision than we did as a group if it was 100% up to me. If anything we made a better decision because we had a consensus and were all on the same page. We as a board were the sole deciders of who we hired. I keep asking you what due diligence we could have done differently and you keep ignoring the question. Short of tracking down every individual working for every individual sub and evaluating their work on a random basis, I do not see how we could not have done anything more. People don't complain if the work is done properly, or if they do, they would be few and far between. I would have been thrilled with a 1-2 month turnaround time and proper work done once rather than a 6-month ordeal ending in a payout where not much is done and I still need to get most of the work done. Nobody was expecting the world's best work either, just a normal proper job.

I have never said all GC's or subs are bad, you somehow inferred that from the word "I" which is singular and refers to me as an individual. We've been over this. Further, I went out of my way to explain that this does not apply to all GC's. I honestly don't understand how there is any confusion over that, it could not have been written any more clearly. I don't think you are reading my posts because you keep bringing up points that I have answered thoroughly, and you never answer my questions about the very things you are criticizing. If you can't even tell me how we could have reasonably made a better decision or what you would have done differently, I don't think you are the right person to be criticizing the decision we made. You also said you have had zero personal experience dealing with GC's and their subs, you just know people who are which is not at all the same thing.

[Rocket1k78]

We as a board were the sole deciders of who we hired

Your board might have picked the final company but you guys were not even close to the sole deciders lol The real people in charge made the small list for you to choose from;) I do this very same thing with my kids, instead of me telling them what to do/eat i pre decide what 2 things i want them to do/eat and then give them that to choose from so they feel like they got the final say





I have never said all GC's or subs are bad

Again, you might not have said "all" but you cant tell me your post people doesnt imply that

I would just avoid anyone who sub-contracts (or sometimes even sub-sub contracts), as most of the time it is the cheapest, worst possible trade they can possibly find.





our choice of "approved" contractors were limited, and I did not have the only say in the matter (most people just want it done ASAP and don't care about quality). If it were my own home (or if I had the only say) you can bet I would be doing 10x the due diligence

Correct me if im wrong on any of this but what i gathered from your post was,
1. you had a limited list of people to choose from
2. almost all the owners wanted it done asap and didnt care about quality which leads me to believe that the final decision was more based on who could get it done quicker vs who did the better work
3. you didnt do as much due diligence as you keep saying

[ExtraSlow]

Holy fuck you two. What more could possibly be said here?

[Tik-Tok]

Holy fuck you two. What more could possibly be said here?

The subject hasn't changed to Mercedes yet, so the conversation has yet to run its course.

[bjstare]

Holy fuck you two. What more could possibly be said here?

Haha :werd: this is exactly what I was thinking.

[Rocket1k78]

Holy fuck you two. What more could possibly be said here?

Not a damn thing lol im done.

[Mitsu3000gt]

Holy fuck you two. What more could possibly be said here?

Yes, that has been one of my points. I've come to the conclusion I got trolled. He didn't read any of my posts or answer any of my questions, so shame on me for taking the bait.

[Rocket1k78]

You got trolled? Please explain how you think that when you say shit like this, unless i misunderstood and you were meaning you were all in agreement that you wanted it done fast and didnt care about the quality. Actually that cant be the case because you're complaining about the shitty work. Now im really confused.



and I did not have the only say in the matter (most people just want it done ASAP and don't care about quality).

If anything we made a better decision because we had a consensus and were all on the same page.

Im jobless and live in my moms basement so i have nothing better to do and dont mind to keep going if youd like.

[never]

I only hire GCs that show up on site driving a Mercedes.

[Tik-Tok]

I only hire GCs that show up on site driving a Mercedes.

Yeah, no "fully loaded" BMW's

/Thread

[Mitsu3000gt]

You got trolled? Please explain how you think that when you say shit like this, unless i misunderstood and you were meaning you were all in agreement that you wanted it done fast and didnt care about the quality. Actually that cant be the case because you're complaining about the shitty work. Now im really confused.





Im jobless and live in my moms basement so i have nothing better to do and dont mind to keep going if youd like.

I'm done getting trolled (others noticed this before I did), you win. You strung me along for a good while and I only have myself to blame for that. Every question you are asking has been answered, you have admitted zero personal experience on the matter, and you have not answered any of my questions which I have repeatedly asked, so at this point you are clearly just trying to see how long you can get me to reply to you....it worked again I guess.

[infamous]

lol just read through this whole thread. thank you Mitsu3000gt and Rocket1k78 for the lolz :rofl:

[Rocket1k78]

You cant take the easy way out and use the troll card lol
I dont know how you could say im trolling you when you contradict yourself over and over.



If anything we made a better decision because we had a consensus and were all on the same page.

and I did not have the only say in the matter (most people just want it done ASAP and don't care about quality)
So you all agreed you wanted it done quick and didnt care about quality?




We as a board were the sole deciders of who we hired

our choice of "approved" contractors were limited
Tell me again how it was solely the boards choice when someone above ALL of you gave you the limited list to choose from