Moving Out of your parents'

[jwslam]

Saw this article today
http://www.fmylife.com/article/parents-sue-30-year-old-son-for-not-moving-out-of-their-house_274880.html
https://country105.com/news/4224851/judge-new-york-rules-30-year-old-son-evicted-from-parents-home/

Refer to poll & discuss as I'm wondering how often people actually get kicked out...
But this is probably a skewed poll since Asians want to live with 4 generations under the same roof and would never kick kids out :rofl:

/inb4 someone creates a thread about moving back in with them / them moving in with you.

[lasimmon]

Moved to Edmonton for School. Moved back for summers/right after graduating till my first job started, then moved out and haven't been back.

[Thaco]

moved out at 18 and never looked back.... financially probably not the best decision, but i survived.

[killramos]

Out at 17 for school, stayed with my parents in summers while working though still had my apartment in Halifax year round.

I think I lasted a month with my parents after graduating while I was finding a place.

That said my brother still lives with my parents at 25 :rofl: , he is even engaged :nut:

[max_boost]

Moved out at 23 and never going back.

[BerserkerCatSplat]

Moved out at 17, I left for school but it was also made clear to me that I was no longer welcome at home regardless of what my plans were. So sorta kicked out, haha.

[schurchill39]

Left at 18 for school. Spent 2 summers kind of living at home then the next two I stayed in Saskatoon. By kind of living at home I mean I worked 2 weeks on 1 week off and for my 2 weeks my car was parked at my moms house and my 1 week off I was back in saskatoon. So maybe spent a handful of nights at "home".

My brother is 24 and still lives with my dad but I don't think thats by choice for either one of them, and my sister would still live with my mom if it was feasible despite being married. I have no desire to move home and would need to be on the brink of homelessness to be back there.

[RX_EVOLV]

in and out since university. Went to UA for school (out), then back to UC for grad school (In), then back to Edmonton for work (Out), then back to Calgary for work (In). Finally moved out at age 27 once I bought my own place. They didn't want me to move out until I'm married, and I didn't want to move out at all until I can afford to buy a good inner city detached home rather than spending money rent, or buying an attached home, or living in the burbs. So it all worked out perfectly.

[vengie]

Left at 20, never looked back. Although adulting sucks at times :rofl:

[Rocket1k78]

You guys should mentally guess the looks of the guy before you open the link lol I got it spot on.

I moved out at 23 and would move back in a second if my wife was ok with it. Nothing beats moms home cooking.

[shakalaka]

If I was in Calgary I would for sure live at home...and without any qualms or issues about it to be honest. But that may be a cultural thing.

However, as circumstances happened, moved out at 18 to Scotland. Came back and lived at home during holidays though. Moved back in for a couple of years after finishing school and moved out again when I got work in Edmonton. And now I will be here from the looks of it.

[LilDrunkenSmurf]

Moved out at 20. Dad moved to Landgon, I moved with. Got sick of commuting to Calgary from there, and then he asked me for rent money. I figured if I was going to pay rent, I was at least going to choose where I lived.

[tirebob]

16 years old and I went to a small farming town in Quebec in a student exchange. I was there for a week, got laid and could get into the bar so I quit school, got a job in a tire shop and stayed for 4 years... lol! Never moved back home after that.

[Sugarphreak]

...

[thinmyster]

Graduated from the U of C at the age of 26. Moved out as soon as I got a job ~3 months.

Looks like I've stayed at home the longest so far! LOL

[Twin_Cam_Turbo]

Parents forced me to buy a place at 21, which didn’t get built but did buy a place at 22 to move into for a year and a half before moving back with my parents to take care of their house and pets when they travel.

[ExtraSlow]

My mom was always clear that rent would be charged as soon as school was over. Took me maybe 6 months to find an engineering job after graduation, and then stayed at home for probably another 8 months after that saving up a little cash. Rented for 12 months, girlfriend moved in with me and we bought a place.

[tonytiger55]

Moved out at 18 for Uni. Moved back in after graduating. I could not afford to move out after..:(
After a few years I moved out to another country...:rofl:

[Tik-Tok]

Willingly/work. There were no real jobs to be had in my hometown. So I moved to where work was.

[jltabot]

Graduated from the U of C at the age of 26. Moved out as soon as I got a job ~3 months.

Looks like I've stayed at home the longest so far! LOL

Finished school at UofS last year, moved back and now working on saving for a place on my own (and still looking for a real engineering job). (27 haha fuckkk)

[blairtruck]

out at 18. never went back. talk to parents once every few months. they in ft.mac, me in Edmonton. Bday gift and mothers day gift still sitting here till they next visit.

[shakalaka]

If I had the choice, i.e. didn't have to move out for school and then work, I'd definitely stay at home absolutely free of all expenses. My parents would never ask for rent or anything like that. I sometimes think my brother played the cards right and he is super smart financially speaking. And not just cause he doesn't waste money on cars, watches and other things stupidly like I do but the guy lived at home until he was like 33-34 (for 8 years even after getting married) and saved up all his dough. Last year, buys his own massive house almost as big as our parents' a block down from theirs for $1.6mil. I mean that's not bad for a first house at all as most people couldn't swing that even for their final home. But then that's what living at home rent free and being frugal/smart with your money can do. Mind you the guy has a pretty sweet management job making well into the 6 figures and his wife's a doctor so I am sure the savings racked up relatively easily.

[spikerS]

dropped out of highschool pretty much as soon as I turned 16, and went to work, and was living on my own shortly afterwards. worked for a few years, then moved back in at 19 while I went back to school and got my GED, and was out again right after and my Ex moved in with me at 21. Have not been back since.

[tonytiger55]

Question...

How many of you wanted to move out vs not being able to due to lack of job prospects/ financial economics..?

As posted above. I moved out for university and moved back with parents after. I tried to move out (21) I just could not afford to. The cost of renting a room in London and my pittance of a salary meant it was impossible and the future looked dire. I noticed the same issue for a lot of people with a similarish background. A few of my friends still live at home with their parents back in the UK.

Did anyone face a similar situation?

[spikerS]

Question...

How many of you wanted to move out vs not being able to due to lack of job prospects/ financial economics..?

As posted above. I moved out for university and moved back with parents after. I tried to move out (21) I just could not afford to. The cost of renting a room in London and my pittance of a salary meant it was impossible and the future looked dire. I noticed the same issue for a lot of people with a similarish background. A few of my friends still live at home with their parents back in the UK.

Did anyone face a similar situation?

yup. I didn't exacly command a high salary working as a Framer / framer's helper at 16, so I lived in a couple fucking shit holes to start. Man, one place didn't even have heat in the winter and I had to heat it up with the oven, and wear thermal underwear and 2 hoodies to bed to keep warm, but that what you get when you make minimum wage at $4.00 an hour.

[RX_EVOLV]

The idea of moving out for the sake of moving out never crossed my mind, but my dad was barely home (business in Hong Kong) so it felt right to stay home to be with my mom while I was still able to (e.g not married).Financially it made no sense if I could stay home rent free. If it wasn't for that I wouldn't have been able to save up the 20% down payment at that age for not graduating from grad school until 24. But when I was 27 the right property came along and it just felt right to move out.. actually thinking back I kind of felt sad moving out. It felt like I was abandoning my mom a little bit... but it is what it is...

[Twin_Cam_Turbo]

Question...

How many of you wanted to move out vs not being able to due to lack of job prospects/ financial economics..?

As posted above. I moved out for university and moved back with parents after. I tried to move out (21) I just could not afford to. The cost of renting a room in London and my pittance of a salary meant it was impossible and the future looked dire. I noticed the same issue for a lot of people with a similarish background. A few of my friends still live at home with their parents back in the UK.

Did anyone face a similar situation?

I have the opposite issue now that I would like to move out again but my parents like having me around and want me to stay.

[bjstare]

Interesting thread. I moved out for school around 18, and bought a house just before my last semester. Lived there for a few years, and then ended up going through a nasty divorce, at which point I sold the house and moved back with the parents for a month. After that, lived out of the house for a couple more years, then decided I wanted to sell the place I was in to get something different. Sold in the fall and house sat for my parents for a few months, then lived in their basement for another couple months when they got home before we (my current wife and I) found the next house to buy. It wasn't a bad situation though, my parents are awesome and we all get along, plus they have a 2nd kitchen in the basement so we didn't have to see them at all if we didn't want. Like twin cam, my parents wanted us to stay there indefinitely haha (partially so my dad didn't have to find someone to take care of their place during the winter).

[jltabot]

Question...

How many of you wanted to move out vs not being able to due to lack of job prospects/ financial economics..?

As posted above. I moved out for university and moved back with parents after. I tried to move out (21) I just could not afford to. The cost of renting a room in London and my pittance of a salary meant it was impossible and the future looked dire. I noticed the same issue for a lot of people with a similarish background. A few of my friends still live at home with their parents back in the UK.

Did anyone face a similar situation?

Doing exactly this. As much as I'd love to move out, it just doesn't make sense with my current salary and ridiculous amount of student loans. So, I'm being patient and looking for work elsewhere with better prospects.

Culturally, I don't think it's that big a deal to still live at home rent-free with home cooked meals :thumbsup:... but then queue most of the white people who moved out at 16-18, and if not, were required to pay rent haha

[killramos]

Oh my mother loves that my brother lives at home lol. Especially since my dad has been on assignment in South American for the better part of the last 2 years.

Overall though, I know some friends who still live with their parents. It’s really stunted them in the life skills department, amazing what moving out and having to do things for yourself every time does for character. This is especially true of money management skills, I had a friend who recently moved out at 25 and reality hit him like a Mack truck.

Now of course there is the debate that it is the stunted life skills that has prevented them from moving out, chicken and egg haha.

[HiTempguy1]

Parents forced me to buy a place at 21, which didn’t get built but did buy a place at 22 to move into for a year and a half before moving back with my parents to take care of their house and pets when they travel.

This comment fascinates me in particular. While I respect my parents a great deal, and when I moved out at 18 we certainly weren't on the best of terms, regardless of any of that, I've never allowed them to force me to do anything in my adult life.

Maybe you are being factitious? I just find it interesting how different people interact with their parents.

As mentioned, out at 18. I wasn't kicked out, but after withdrawing at the end of my first year of Engg and then getting yelled at for not having a job for 3 whole weeks (I was applying everywhere, it is tough to get a job with only a high school diploma to your name and no tickets/certificates, not many people in Red Deer were looking for scrawny car freaks to hire :rofl: ), I called it and moved into a townhouse with 4 bros I knew from high school. Awful.

In hindsight, I'd tell anyone to stay with their parents if at all possible. That $6k-$10k per year in rental savings in your pocket is a huge difference in the first couple of years if you aren't going directly (or ever) into post secondary. I don't regret the path, and I did live with my mom and dad for the summer between NAIT and for 3 odd months after graduating from NAIT.

There was just a lot going on at that time in the family, so it was worth moving out, nowadays the parents and I get along very well. I was a pretty independent kid, I'd been doing my own racing and funding everything from the age of 16, traveling all over Western Canada and to the USA by that point. Moving out didn't change much overall.

Edit-
Reading some of the comments still fascinates me further. Clearly different parenting approaches in families. My parents are my parents, not my friends. I'm welcome to visit (which I do almost every other week, sometimes even stay in town for the night with them if I have other things going on in town), and my dad and I do a lot of stuff together, but there is no way in hell they'd ever want myself or my sister there for an extended period :rofl:

[bjstare]

Overall though, I know some friends who still live with their parents. It’s really stunted them in the life skills department, amazing what moving out and having to do things for yourself every time does for character. This is especially true of money management skills, I had a friend who recently moved out at 25 and reality hit him like a Mack truck.


I would argue that the lack of life skills is a result of his parents not doing a good job teaching those skills, as opposed to it being a function of him still being at home. Everyone I know that's a notably good/bad money manager (as an example), had already formed those habits by the time they were 16. It wouldn't matter if they lived at home til they were 40, they'd still know how to (or not know how, in the case of the people who are bad with their money) do it. Same goes for laundry and cooking. My mom made me start doing that occasionally in my early teens, just to make sure I didn't grow up to be a useless tit haha.

[Manhattan]

Now of course there is the debate that it is the stunted life skills that has prevented them from moving out, chicken and egg haha.

Moving out forced me to develop life skills so it was a big catalyst for change. When I first moved out in my early 20's I was getting paid peanuts and I noticed that I was just barely breaking even after paying rent each month (my rent was dirty cheap too) and quite literally living paycheque to paycheque. I guess that sparked me to look for a better paying job and I found it within 6 months. Looking back I was definitely very lucky with the timing but I also believe luck is engineered to a certain degree by being in the right places at the right times. If I continued living at home I would've been far less motivated to look for better work or pay. The financial strain of paying all my own bills almost necessitated the progression in my career.

The biggest downside of living at home was psychological. I just didn't feel in control of my life living under your parents' roof and answering to them every night after a long day of answering to bosses at work. Looking back I don't think the adult phase of my life started til I moved out. I went to university while living at home so everything from that to graduating and working just felt like a continuation of high school.

[nickyh]

I moved out at 23 and moved back in with my inlaws some years back while we were building our current house. Hardest 8 months of my life after being on our own before that.

[J-hop]

Interesting thread. I moved out for school around 18, and bought a house just before my last semester. Lived there for a few years, and then ended up going through a nasty divorce, at which point I sold the house and moved back with the parents for a month. After that, lived out of the house for a couple more years, then decided I wanted to sell the place I was in to get something different. Sold in the fall and house sat for my parents for a few months, then lived in their basement for another couple months when they got home before we (my current wife and I) found the next house to buy. It wasn't a bad situation though, my parents are awesome and we all get along, plus they have a 2nd kitchen in the basement so we didn't have to see them at all if we didn't want. Like twin cam, my parents wanted us to stay there indefinitely haha (partially so my dad didn't have to find someone to take care of their place during the winter).

Damn, what did I do wrong. How the hell did you buy a house before your last semester? I worked all throughout uni with summer internships and an offer before I graduated but no way in hell I could have saved a down payment

[schurchill39]

If I had the choice, i.e. didn't have to move out for school and then work, I'd definitely stay at home absolutely free of all expenses. My parents would never ask for rent or anything like that. I sometimes think my brother played the cards right and he is super smart financially speaking. And not just cause he doesn't waste money on cars, watches and other things stupidly like I do but the guy lived at home until he was like 33-34 (for 8 years even after getting married) and saved up all his dough. Last year, buys his own massive house almost as big as our parents' a block down from theirs for $1.6mil. I mean that's not bad for a first house at all as most people couldn't swing that even for their final home. But then that's what living at home rent free and being frugal/smart with your money can do. Mind you the guy has a pretty sweet management job making well into the 6 figures and his wife's a doctor so I am sure the savings racked up relatively easily.

You had said in a previous post that you thought this was probably a cultural thing. May I ask what ethnic background your family is? Living at home until well into your 30's seems absolutely crazy to me, even more so being married and living at home. That being said I do recognize my pasty white ass and my cultural views are only a fraction of the world views and not reflective of the bigger picture. I'm curious is all.

[bjstare]

Damn, what did I do wrong. How the hell did you buy a house before your last semester? I worked all throughout uni with summer internships and an offer before I graduated but no way in hell I could have saved a down payment

Mandatory co-op program in engineering, so my summer jobs paid pretty well + parents paid for school/expenses during degree. Not all lollipops and rainbows though, as that divorce cost me a pile of money. Was definitely a step back finance-wise.

[botox]

Out at 26 but technically 19 cause that's when we bought our first house and parents lived with us. At 26 none of us were getting along and with kid #2 on the way we sold the house and everyone went their separate ways. Never went back since and only regret is not doing it sooner.


I moved out at 23 and moved back in with my inlaws some years back while we were building our current house. Hardest 8 months of my life after being on our own before that.
When we built our house we decided to buy a temp house instead of living with the crazy inlaws or even my parents for this same reason. I would go nuts living with either of them with two small kids. Best decision we made cause we profited a nice chunk after living there for about 9 months.

[rx7boi]

After I graduated, I stayed home for about 2 years. Was lucky enough to pay a small amount of rent so I was able to build up funds and also buy my first new car (terrrrrible decision, looking back).

Originally the money was for grad school but I decided I wanted a house instead.

I moved out and bought my first place with my now-fiancee when I was 27. With a mortgage it's tougher to go back to school but that may never happen since I'm making a modest salary that I'm happy with.

[03ozwhip]

Moved out at 19 with a buddy, then moved to another place with 4 more buddies, while I was making 7.50 an hour lol which ultimately fucked our relationships. I dont talk to any of those guys now and they were some of my best friends.

Moved back in with my parents for about 6 months after all that.

Fast forward a bunch of years, I moved in with my I laws while building our house in 2010, then again back in 2016 when we built another house.

Overall it was the best decision to first off, leave my parents and secondly, move in with the in laws, it definitely helped in the finance department.

[Disoblige]

Moved out at 19 with a buddy, then moved to another place with 4 more buddies, while I was making 7.50 an hour lol which ultimately fucked our relationships. I dont talk to any of those guys now and they were some of my best friends.

Moved back in with my parents for about 6 months after all that.

Fast forward a bunch of years, I moved in with my I laws while building our house in 2010, then again back in 2016 when we built another house.

Overall it was the best decision to first off, leave my parents and secondly, move in with the in laws, it definitely helped in the finance department.
lol, was it really the best decision even though I believe you implied that you were one of those guys who were too broke to pay rent and other daily use items around the house. I almost always see 4 young single guys renting a place as a total disaster. I hung out a couple times at places like these and it was the most fucking disgusting house I ever saw and that only lasted under a year before everyone couldn't take it no more.

Back on topic, moved out for University for much needed space, never went back. Only stay over weekends and when I'm in town for business sometimes because I don't see my parents very often these days.

[tonytiger55]

You had said in a previous post that you thought this was probably a cultural thing. May I ask what ethnic background your family is? Living at home until well into your 30's seems absolutely crazy to me, even more so being married and living at home. That being said I do recognize my pasty white ass and my cultural views are only a fraction of the world views and not reflective of the bigger picture. I'm curious is all.

Just to add to that comment. My parents background is east Indian. Its normal for kids to stay at home with their parents. I found this goes two ways. You are either successful and end up in a good job. This has a massive impact on the ability to progress in life i.e being able to afford a house, bmw and attracting a partner with similar high income (or they get a import from India that is much a house maid. Or have a western born woman one that is brainwashed into being one).

The second outcome is where there is no real guidance, the lack of progressive job, marketable skills and decent income has a massive impact to progress in life as well as attract a potential partner. There is a massive psychological effect, Its even worse if your parents talk to you like your ten and wrap you up in cotton wool and play the push pull game with your emotions. This can also arise to mental health issues, drinking, anger, divorce etc. Not everything goes this way, but there are many other sub variables in this direction.



In hindsight, I'd tell anyone to stay with their parents if at all possible. That $6k-$10k per year in rental savings in your pocket is a huge difference in the first couple of years if you aren't going directly (or ever) into post secondary. I don't regret the path, and I did live with my mom and dad for the summer between NAIT and for 3 odd months after graduating from NAIT.

I think this depends on the relationship you have with your parents and family, and perhaps even ones culture/ethnicity to an extent. From a savings point of view yes, you are right.
I was told the same thing and staying at home was one of the worst things ever to happen to me. You just get stuck. I think moving out expands one point of reference, life skills and ones ability to adapt to life events. Life is sure as hell not going to adapt to you.

[max_boost]

Depends on the arrangement. If you have clear financial goals, living at home can be great.

[killramos]

Depends on the arrangement. If you have clear financial goals, living at home can be great.

These are millennials we are talking about.

[88CRX]

Graduated high school, then jumped to SAIT while living rent free at home. As soon as I graduated from SAIT my parents started charging me rent (not much but something to knock some sense into me). Lived there for almost 4 years while I saved up house down payment, jumped ship and haven't been back since.

[jltabot]

You had said in a previous post that you thought this was probably a cultural thing. May I ask what ethnic background your family is? Living at home until well into your 30's seems absolutely crazy to me, even more so being married and living at home. That being said I do recognize my pasty white ass and my cultural views are only a fraction of the world views and not reflective of the bigger picture. I'm curious is all.

I'm pretty sure he's a brown guy. But to that point, it's not uncommon for Indian families to participate in inter-generational living. Hell, a lot of the new communities being built (Savanna in particular), these new houses are DESIGNED for such a thing. After walking through the show homes there just for fun, they have 3 full en-suite baths upstairs, make use of the attic space and basements (fully-developed), 5-6 bedrooms, and 2 full kitchens. It's nuts, brown people must be used to living in with 15+ people in one household. I think their goal is having 3-4 income streams to pay down the mortgage quickly, then rinse and repeat with other houses. There's still the stigma that the NE is ghetto (and granted, some parts of it still are), but these are houses that are approaching 7-800k for new builds....

[03ozwhip]

lol, was it really the best decision even though I believe you implied that you were one of those guys who were too broke to pay rent and other daily use items around the house. I almost always see 4 young single guys renting a place as a total disaster. I hung out a couple times at places like these and it was the most fucking disgusting house I ever saw and that only lasted under a year before everyone couldn't take it no more.

Back on topic, moved out for University for much needed space, never went back. Only stay over weekends and when I'm in town for business sometimes because I don't see my parents very often these days.

Oh you're totally right, I had to go to the food bank for food almost every couple weeks. However, my parents house was very toxic and it was better than being there.

I was happy even though I was always broke lol

[Disoblige]

Oh you're totally right, I had to go to the food bank for food almost every couple weeks. However, my parents house was very toxic and it was better than being there.

I was happy even though I was always broke lol
Gotcha. At least you got through it :thumbsup:

[max_boost]

These are millennials we are talking about.

Makes more sense to live at home for millennials so they can yololol

I can move back home tmr if I wanted to but the bitches love the view of my condo so no can do with that haha

[rx7boi]

I'm pretty sure he's a brown guy. But to that point, it's not uncommon for Indian families to participate in inter-generational living. Hell, a lot of the new communities being built (Savanna in particular), these new houses are DESIGNED for such a thing. After walking through the show homes there just for fun, they have 3 full en-suite baths upstairs, make use of the attic space and basements (fully-developed), 5-6 bedrooms, and 2 full kitchens. It's nuts, brown people must be used to living in with 15+ people in one household. I think their goal is having 3-4 income streams to pay down the mortgage quickly, then rinse and repeat with other houses. There's still the stigma that the NE is ghetto (and granted, some parts of it still are), but these are houses that are approaching 7-800k for new builds....

Some asian families do this too. Pooling resources exponentially increases your ability to buy property while saving on interest and you keep doing the same thing until each kid has a house either completely paid off or partially paid off.

IMO there's pros and cons. On one hand you're financially ahead of your peers who go the route of paying down a traditional mortgage themselves, but on the other hand you could potentially learn things at different timepoints in life, which in the long term I don't even really think can be a con. If you have to learn to budget for a full mortgage when you're 30 instead of when you're 25, you're still going to have to learn the same adult skill set.

I don't think one way is necessarily better and some of the comments I've heard where people diss others for staying at home longer reek of arrogance like no one helped them get to where they are today.

Ultimately, I'm a firm believer of not knocking other people's hustles and especially not assuming that I know their finances. One of my best buddies is financially ahead for his age, but you'd never think that because he's pretty down to earth and modest with his spending on the hobbies.

Looking back, living at home with minimal rent was probably the easiest time of my adult life and there are times I wish I invested my money early on instead of blowing it on a shitty Genesis Coupe and mods :rofl:

[jltabot]

Makes more sense to live at home for millennials so they can yololol

I can move back home tmr if I wanted to but the bitches love the view of my condo so no can do with that haha

THIS LOL. One of the downfalls of living at home really hurts the game :poosie:

[jltabot]

Some asian families do this too. Pooling resources exponentially increases your ability to buy property while saving on interest and you keep doing the same thing until each kid has a house either completely paid off or partially paid off.

IMO there's pros and cons. On one hand you're financially ahead of your peers who go the route of paying down a traditional mortgage themselves, but on the other hand you could potentially learn things at different timepoints in life, which in the long term I don't even really think can be a con. If you have to learn to budget for a full mortgage when you're 30 instead of when you're 25, you're still going to have to learn the same adult skill set.

I don't think one way is necessarily better and some of the comments I've heard where people diss others for staying at home longer reek of arrogance like no one helped them get to where they are today.

Ultimately, I'm a firm believer of not knocking other people's hustles and especially not assuming that I know their finances. One of my best buddies is financially ahead for his age, but you'd never think that because he's pretty down to earth and modest with his spending on the hobbies.

Looking back, living at home with minimal rent was probably the easiest time of my adult life and there are times I wish I invested my money early on instead of blowing it on a shitty Genesis Coupe and mods :rofl:

I totally agree, and yes it's also asians too. We are also probably conditioned for a higher tolerance of never-ending nagging from old-school type Asian parenting. Everyone also learns certain skills at their own pace so I do my best not to judge too quickly, especially when it comes to money. A lot of the white girls I meet end up asking why I live at home, sure by "choice" but bitch, this shit's free :rofl:

Another added benefit of multi-generational families in one home is having free babysitting/daycare. Not that I have kids, nor will I any time soon, but that shits expensive!

[HiTempguy1]

You just get stuck.

Absolutely it depends on how you were raised. My family was solidly upper middle class by the time I was in my teens. But my parents still didn't buy me anything, I got my one Christmas present and my one bday present a year and that's it. Anything else I wanted, from snacks at the corner store to parts for my nitro methane RC buggies, to my first car and insurance, all out of my pocket. I can honestly say I don't believe my parents EVER bought me a single video game in my entire life, I bought a used Xbox at 14 haha. Using their cars? Fuck no, this was early 2000's Alberta where you had to add your kid to your policy and it double or tripled your yearly rates.

But my parents also didn't restrict me on going and exploring the world because I was doing it on my own. I was all over the place as soon as I was 16, not to mention I had a lot of job experience through a variety of means (rebuilt and sold cars with my dad, ran my own RC buy/sell emporium, helped with renovations and building garages/houses).

So yes, staying with your parents is completely situational. When I moved out, I wasn't like a lot of people here "oh no, I had no idea life was this hard!" I was already well aware. Different strokes.

[ercchry]

Don’t get me wrong... I love my family... but, i’d rather live in a tent in the woods than move back home.

My mom would love me being back home, dad.... probably not. We have a family cottage and that family time under one roof pushes everyone’s buttons by the end. Mainly cause I will always be a child in their eyes? It’s just natural behaviour I guess... but I moved out for good after a couple back and forths during post secondary when I told my parents I wanted to take over a lease on a C300 and the old man said if I did that I could go live in it :rofl:

Ended up buying a Jeep instead... but still left shortly after

[J-hop]

Mandatory co-op program in engineering, so my summer jobs paid pretty well + parents paid for school/expenses during degree. Not all lollipops and rainbows though, as that divorce cost me a pile of money. Was definitely a step back finance-wise.

Yea kinda figured (no offence), I got help through school with school expenses as well + got several scholarships but no help with other expenses. No way were the gf and I able to save a down payment.

I work with a lot of silver spooners that got a free ride, it’s very apparent they haven’t developed good money mangagement skills. Some of them owned brand new vehicles before they turned 30, had their weddings mostly paid for and still mooched like leeches off their parents after moving out. Clearly don’t have a clue about working for their dollar

Money doesn’t grow on (family) trees is the single best lesson you can teach your kids. Sometimes you get lucky, parents pay for school, wedding, car and some of ‘your’ early investments. But that doesn’t mean you know a damn thing about managing money it just means you won the birth lottery and were born into an affluent family. I see a lot of these people looking down on the poorer class and it sickens me, they’ve had their life handed to them on a platter and don’t even realize it.

My gf grew up extremely poor and it keeps me grounded. Sickens me to see what i took for granted and how I’ve never actually seen true struggle.

It’s a great reminder reading some of the stories here about guys moving out at 16 living in places with no heat ( spikerS ), reminds me what a pampered POS I was growing up...

[spikerS]

It’s a great reminder reading some of the stories here about guys moving out at 16 living in places with no heat ( spikerS ), reminds me what a pampered POS I was growing up...

I remember growing up that I had a lot of resentment for the other kids who had parents that just paid for everything for them. My childhood was anything but that, I still vividly remember sitting on the windowsill at the Cochrane IGA while my dad stuffed the ballot box at christmas to win a 7 foot tall red mesh stocking. He was lucky and managed to win it, and my mother and he ripped it open, then re-wrapped everything so that we had presents under the tree on christmas morning, because without it, there wasn't going to be any presents.

One of the main reasons I left when I did was that after my parents seperated, money was even tighter, so if I left, my mother had some extra money that could be spent on the bills and food for her and my sister, and was able to get some better social support.

So yeah, at that time of my life, watching my friends go off to uni or college, or getting new vehicles paid for by their parents, i was a fucking bitter kid. i worked my ass off and didn't get anywhere for awhile, but eventually I managed to get in with a few good companies and build my reputation, and I find myself in the position of being able to pay for things for my kids, and being able to buy them their first vehicles. I can't help but remember my youth, and my position has softened quite a bit.

Sorry for the ramble. lol

[killramos]

some of them owned brand new vehicles before they turned 30

oh the humanity

[ercchry]

oh the humanity

We had 2 brand new ~$30k cars... and two detached houses at 24... neither of us had/have a degree... nor ever had a job back then that paid more than $50k... amazing what can be accomplished when you decide the work week doesn’t end at 40hrs, and roommates... thank god for roommates :rofl:

Our parents could have done a lot for us, but we did all of that. Not even a co-signer for any of it.

Also we were always the “less fortunate” side of the family... I learned everything from watching my uncle and how he structured his life. Good credit is important!

[300havoc]

I moved out at 24 after doing a bit of school and working. Now I'm 29 and back at home because school is expensive and living at home is not :( 100% would rather not be at home, but the finances don't support it right now. Maybe next year.

[J-hop]

I remember growing up that I had a lot of resentment for the other kids who had parents that just paid for everything for them. My childhood was anything but that, I still vividly remember sitting on the windowsill at the Cochrane IGA while my dad stuffed the ballot box at christmas to win a 7 foot tall red mesh stocking. He was lucky and managed to win it, and my mother and he ripped it open, then re-wrapped everything so that we had presents under the tree on christmas morning, because without it, there wasn't going to be any presents.

One of the main reasons I left when I did was that after my parents seperated, money was even tighter, so if I left, my mother had some extra money that could be spent on the bills and food for her and my sister, and was able to get some better social support.

So yeah, at that time of my life, watching my friends go off to uni or college, or getting new vehicles paid for by their parents, i was a fucking bitter kid. i worked my ass off and didn't get anywhere for awhile, but eventually I managed to get in with a few good companies and build my reputation, and I find myself in the position of being able to pay for things for my kids, and being able to buy them their first vehicles. I can't help but remember my youth, and my position has softened quite a bit.

Sorry for the ramble. lol

You’re going to pass great life skills on to your kids. Every day I am thankful I didn’t have to struggle. But at the same time I’ve never had to struggle so if luck decides to bite me in the ass I sure as hell won’t be prepared.

I’ve been lucky enough to have worked in O/G for almost 10 years. But that luck could change tomorrow...

People are entitled brats, it’s simple luck not intelligence that gets them through life.

[Buster]

I dont know about luck. Most successful people I know aren't lucky. Opportunistic, perhaps, but that is a skill of its own.

They are almost always smart (exceptions are rare here), but perhaps more importantly they understand how to make good decisions. They understand when to make fast decision, and when to slow things down. They understand when and how to make decisions with imperfect information. I bet these two qualities correlate strongly to personal financial results.

Hard work would behind these somewhere. But hard work is vastly over-rated, especially in the middle class on down. Knowing when and what situations to go HAM and being able to do it is much more important.

It's interesting the comments on silver spoon kids, or kids that didn't have to claw their way out of poverty, etc. But we do know that affluence is inter-generational. There is some mobility with our social classes, but it there are strong inter-generational correlations. So if the affluent parents aren't teaching their kids how to clip coupons, what are they teaching them that enables them to generate revenue better. It's not really expense management, but rather how to drive the top line. And to me that comes back to teaching them good decision making skills, and how to make the smart play. Then buying a brand new car is not a macro bad decision but a micro bad decision in the greater context.

[suntan]

I moved out at 18. My dad lost his job here and I was at the U of C so I stayed here and my family moved. I was poor as dirt during school. Tried to minimize my debt so worked a ton at the same time. My parents never had a lot of money anyhow.

[Twin_Cam_Turbo]

This comment fascinates me in particular. While I respect my parents a great deal, and when I moved out at 18 we certainly weren't on the best of terms, regardless of any of that, I've never allowed them to force me to do anything in my adult life.

Maybe you are being factitious? I just find it interesting how different people interact with their parents.

As mentioned, out at 18. I wasn't kicked out, but after withdrawing at the end of my first year of Engg and then getting yelled at for not having a job for 3 whole weeks (I was applying everywhere, it is tough to get a job with only a high school diploma to your name and no tickets/certificates, not many people in Red Deer were looking for scrawny car freaks to hire :rofl: ), I called it and moved into a townhouse with 4 bros I knew from high school. Awful.

In hindsight, I'd tell anyone to stay with their parents if at all possible. That $6k-$10k per year in rental savings in your pocket is a huge difference in the first couple of years if you aren't going directly (or ever) into post secondary. I don't regret the path, and I did live with my mom and dad for the summer between NAIT and for 3 odd months after graduating from NAIT.

There was just a lot going on at that time in the family, so it was worth moving out, nowadays the parents and I get along very well. I was a pretty independent kid, I'd been doing my own racing and funding everything from the age of 16, traveling all over Western Canada and to the USA by that point. Moving out didn't change much overall.

Edit-
Reading some of the comments still fascinates me further. Clearly different parenting approaches in families. My parents are my parents, not my friends. I'm welcome to visit (which I do almost every other week, sometimes even stay in town for the night with them if I have other things going on in town), and my dad and I do a lot of stuff together, but there is no way in hell they'd ever want myself or my sister there for an extended period :rofl:

Was told to buy a place or find my stuff on the curb soon. Probably knew I was gonna go down the path of wasting tens of thousands on cars and wanted me to at least have some sort of asset first hahaha

[ercchry]

I dont know about luck. Most successful people I know aren't lucky. Opportunistic, perhaps, but that is a skill of its own.

They are almost always smart (exceptions are rare here), but perhaps more importantly they understand how to make good decisions. They understand when to make fast decision, and when to slow things down. They understand when and how to make decisions with imperfect information. I bet these two qualities correlate strongly to personal financial results.

Hard work would behind these somewhere. But hard work is vastly over-rated, especially in the middle class on down. Knowing when and what situations to go HAM and being able to do it is much more important.

It's interesting the comments on silver spoon kids, or kids that didn't have to claw their way out of poverty, etc. But we do know that affluence is inter-generational. There is some mobility with our social classes, but it there are strong inter-generational correlations. So if the affluent parents aren't teaching their kids how to clip coupons, what are they teaching them that enables them to generate revenue better. It's not really expense management, but rather how to drive the top line. And to me that comes back to teaching them good decision making skills, and how to make the smart play. Then buying a brand new car is not a macro bad decision but a micro bad decision in the greater context.

I like the way you turn my thoughts into coherent posts! Haha

The “silver spoon” “lucky” argument always comes off as a “woe is me” victim of circumstances cry fest. I know countless people that moved out at 16, never finished grade school and made it to the 7 figure a year club. Someone with half a picture of what they think they know to discount it as luck is disrespectful

[J-hop]

.

[HiTempguy1]

I like the way you turn my thoughts into coherent posts! Haha

The “silver spoon” “lucky” argument always comes off as a “woe is me” victim of circumstances cry fest. I know countless people that moved out at 16, never finished grade school and made it to the 7 figure a year club. Someone with half a picture of what they think they know to discount it as luck is disrespectful

Yes and no.

Right place, right time is luck, regardless of how you spin it. The fact that you know "countless" people means you are in such an extreme minority its practically beyond comprehension. The majority of wealthy individuals come from wealth.

I completely agree that saying its all luck, or a majority is luck is beyond idiotic. But I'd say 10-25% is "luck", in that a certain random event/circumstance enabled a person to be successful.

For some, thats the fluke of being born into a relatively well off family and having easier access to money. For others, its having been placed in a unique situation that led to their eventual success.

There are certainly things you can do that enhance this "luck". Or better the odds. But I've met plenty of "failures" who you'd think were doing it all right.

There are many factors outside of ones control. But as Buster alluded to, being prepared to be able to accept the opportunities that come your way due to this "luck" is important. If you don't have your shit together, it doesn't matter how "lucky" one is.

Edit-
For instance, my business completely came out of a series of intertwined events that really had their genesis easily a decade ago. If I hadn't done everything I have over the past 8-10 years, it wouldn't have happened. So I define that as luck, the opportunity never would have been there without so many small pieces lining up correctly over time.

To get reaaaalllly long winded, I am reminded of a documentary about a guy in the USA that got rich selling pillows. Before that, he had a family and ran some business, went bankrupt, divorced, developed a meth habit.

As the story goes, one day after not having slept for 4 days straight, he just wanted a comfortable pillow. And then he went to work.

He was broke, with little money, selling pillows at farmers markets. They started taking off, but he really didn't have much money.

The lucky part (besides the concept)? Didn't have the money to pay the fabric supplier. Got them to front $100k (or $1mil?) In fabric. Is that luck? I'd say so, regardless of how well the business looked, for a startup that had nothing to offer the supplier, the supplier basically took a huge chance on a meth head.

You can call it many things, say the guy is a smooth talker, whatever. I'd call it partially luck, it could have been a bad day for the owner of the fabric supplier and he could have told the guy to pound sand. But he didn't. And that one thing allowed his business to take off.

Or hell, look at Facebook. Complete luck. Lots of hard work and smarts behind it, but still just luck. Zuckerberg got to be the millionth monkey managing to pound out Shakespeare.

[ExtraSlow]

People born in privilege often don't see the countless times their situation has helped them in ways another person's wouldn't have. To me, it's totally normal that my family paid nearly all of my university costs, and the little money I made from working was basically just for beer and fuel for the car. I'm no 1%-er, but even that is an incredible advantage. Folks from upper-middle class families have hundreds of things like this that feel so normal that they become invisible to them.

[killramos]

People love the luck or silver spoon argument.

I mean, who wouldn’t, it completely absolves you and your decisions of responsibility for your problems and circumstances. Sure takes a load off when you take introspection out of the equation completely.

[lasimmon]

People love the luck or silver spoon argument.

I mean, who wouldn’t, it completely absolves you and your decisions of responsibility for your problems and circumstances. Sure takes a load off when you take introspection out of the equation completely.

While your point may be true, its extremely disingenuous to ignore what your familial circumstances have on your ability to do well in the world. Personal responsibility is a part of it, but a large part of it is your circumstances.

[rx7boi]

I would have to agree with Buster's comment about opportunism and inter-generational affluence and skills. Every class has things that are likely invisible to them on a day to day basis, things that you'd only know if you were in that socioeconomic class at some point. If you come from middle class, you don't live like upper class and there's no reason to live in lower class conditions so all you ever know is your own environment.

Anecdotally, high achieving peers in my social circle often come from families where the parents are also high achievers. Success breeds success. Like Buster said, kids take in what you impart.

Opportunism is a skill of its own. I admire people who have the drive for hustle and I've seen it in individuals from all walks of life.

Slightly off topic but it's interesting that even when you accrue the same amount of net worth, you're still perceived differently (new vs old money) which means that socioeconomic status is more than just a tangible resource, it's a lifestyle but perhaps that's just an idiosyncrasy of the elite.

[J-hop]

People love the luck or silver spoon argument.

I mean, who wouldn’t, it completely absolves you and your decisions of responsibility for your problems and circumstances. Sure takes a load off when you take introspection out of the equation completely.

Not really, what I’m getting at is people who came from wealth, always had a safety net and could take risks those less fortunate simply couldn’t take like for example essentially having zero income for 4 years to get a degree. That’s something that someone who came from a poor low class family couldn’t dream of doing in many cases because by the time they’re 18 they are helping to support their family or out on their own without the ability to halt their source of income to go to school let alone having been able to save their money for school fees/books. Getting a degree puts you leaps and bounds above the average, and for the most part a degree isn’t hard to achieve, any average person can get a degree but they have to be able to afford to get there in the first place.

I have zero problems with the way I live I am so extremely fortunate. I just look around me and see a lot of people that look down on the lower class when they’ve never had to struggle and blame poor people for their circumstance.

Yes everyone has to take personal responsibility but if you were someone brought up in an affluent family understand that was pure luck and unless you’re an extraordinary individual you most likely wouldn’t be jumping social classes out of poverty had you been born to a poor family. Those are the exceptions, you’re most likely not an exception so it is heavily pure luck where you are in life

It’s weird, I find the people that had it the easiest in life are always the first ones to spout the line “I worked my ass off for everything I have” and are the first to point fingers at those below them and claim they don’t work hard enough.

[jwslam]

https://digitalsynopsis.com/inspiration/privileged-kids-on-a-plate-pencilsword-toby-morris/

[Ekliptix]

Moved out at the ripe age of 25. Bought a house with my brother in Bridlewood. Lived there for 5 years then moved to Houston for 4 years.
Got long very well with my parents when I moved out and still do. Was not pressured to stay or leave. I didn't pay rent at home, but I did lot of chores, mowed their rural lawn, didn't have an attitude, etc.

[suntan]

https://digitalsynopsis.com/inspiration/privileged-kids-on-a-plate-pencilsword-toby-morris/

I've never met a successful person that attributed their success to just themselves.

In fact one of the first things a lot of them say is "I'm fortunate and lucky."

[BrknFngrs]

I've never met a successful person that attributed their success to just themselves.

In fact one of the first things a lot of them say is "I'm fortunate and lucky."

This exactly.

Malcolm Gladwell has a good book on this topic, "Outliers: The Story of Success". Very interesting read.

[Sugarphreak]

...

[Buster]

Not really, what I’m getting at is people who came from wealth, always had a safety net and could take risks those less fortunate simply couldn’t take like for example essentially having zero income for 4 years to get a degree. That’s something that someone who came from a poor low class family couldn’t dream of doing in many cases because by the time they’re 18 they are helping to support their family or out on their own without the ability to halt their source of income to go to school let alone having been able to save their money for school fees/books. Getting a degree puts you leaps and bounds above the average, and for the most part a degree isn’t hard to achieve, any average person can get a degree but they have to be able to afford to get there in the first place.

I have zero problems with the way I live I am so extremely fortunate. I just look around me and see a lot of people that look down on the lower class when they’ve never had to struggle and blame poor people for their circumstance.

Yes everyone has to take personal responsibility but if you were someone brought up in an affluent family understand that was pure luck and unless you’re an extraordinary individual you most likely wouldn’t be jumping social classes out of poverty had you been born to a poor family. Those are the exceptions, you’re most likely not an exception so it is heavily pure luck where you are in life

It’s weird, I find the people that had it the easiest in life are always the first ones to spout the line “I worked my ass off for everything I have” and are the first to point fingers at those below them and claim they don’t work hard enough.

I don't think risk tolerance is a big part of what you describe. A lot of upper-middle class people pursue careers in highly LOW risk careers: accounting, medicine, law, engineering and work their way up. Risk tolerance really comes into play when discussing entrepreneurship and early stage investing. I think the upper-middle class, and middle class demographics have a risk tolerance that is lower because they perceive they have something to lose. You might be confusing access to capital, with some sort of risk profile. And middle-class and above kids certainly have access to more capital. But even then, I don't think that is what differentiates kids so that affluence is passed from one generation to the next. I think there is a transfer from one generation to the next - but it isn't monetary. It is informational.

Successful parents teach their kids how to be successful, but also show kids that you CAN be successful, that they can expect to be successful should they apply themselves. They often show them how to be successful, both through guidance and through example.

So no, it's not "lucky" that you are successful when you have been taught how to be successful. It isn't luck that someone's parents made good decisions and were good parents that taught useful information. That's just good decision making by a parent. Quite different from luck and random chance.

[max_boost]

https://digitalsynopsis.com/inspiration/privileged-kids-on-a-plate-pencilsword-toby-morris/

Perfect

[J-hop]

Would you ( Buster )not agree it’s completely luck that someone was born into a family with values that lead to success?

That is completely random chance.

Sure I completely agree (again) that you have to take personal responsibility. But someone given resources, values and examples as you mentioned that promote success are far more likely to be successful than someone who has none of that and on top of that may have life stressors that actively inhibit their ability to develop those attributes.

[Buster]

No, I don't consider it to be luck at all. Your existence itself is a reflection of the decision making of the parents - not luck. (Well, in my third child's case, it was my wife drinking too much at Stempede, but that's another story).

Good decision making by someone that benefits you doesn't make you lucky. It makes you the beneficiary of someone else's good planning. That's the whole point of good parenting.

[suntan]

What I mean by luck is "favourable circumstances".

Obviously just "lucking" into a high paying job doesn't actually happen.

On the hand that is what some people thinks happens.

[J-hop]

No, I don't consider it to be luck at all. Your existence itself is a reflection of the decision making of the parents - not luck. (Well, in my third child's case, it was my wife drinking too much at Stempede, but that's another story).

Good decision making by someone that benefits you doesn't make you lucky. It makes you the beneficiary of someone else's good planning. That's the whole point of good parenting.

I think you’re missing my point, how in any way shape or form what type of family someone is born into anything but luck.

It is pure luck of the draw what family you are born into.

I get what you’re saying “no it wasn’t luck my parents had good values that promoted success, they worked hard, made good choice etc etc”. Yes but why were you born to those parents and not some degenerates? Luck of the draw...

[Buster]

That logic is meaningless. It's entirely luck that any person is here at all, in their form. If I recall that stats correctly, there are more combinations of human DNA possible than there are particles of matter in the universe. So the fact that you are here and existing with your combination is such a vanishingly small probability that it dwarfs any other forms of "luck" you may be considering. You were never going to be born into another family. The entire position is not rational.

You are here, the benefits conferred onto you by your parents and previous generation are not random, they are the product of good decisions, and better information. What one person sees as lucky, another person sees a situation that was planned and executed by the parents.

Look at the inverse: do you think a radiologist parent who has kids that end up being cardiologists, would attribute any of that to luck? No, that parent had a kid with a chosen mate (who was probably also smart if the statistics are to be believed), and then made a series of deliberate parenting decisions over years to ensure their child had a path to success. I think that parent would rightfully bristle at the notion that any of that was luck.

[killramos]

Belittling someone’s success because they were born to parents with above average wealth makes about as much sense as belittling someone who was born with above average intelligence. Personally I would take smarts over a couple of bucks any day of the week. You could have every advantage in the world but if you don’t make good decisions in life you will get nowhere.

Chalking it all up to luck is convenient and lazy reasoning. There is no sense basing your world view around circumstances that are out of your control. Luck doesn’t exist, it’s just a way people feel comfortable rationalizing what they can’t control.

I think this obsession with “luck” is rooted in the idea that people still think, in aggregate, life is fair. It’s not, it just is. You either accept that or wallow in platitudes.

Everyone likes to poke holes in the success of others, I think most would be better off spending their time looking inward instead.

[J-hop]

That logic is meaningless. It's entirely luck that any person is here at all, in their form. If I recall that stats correctly, there are more combinations of human DNA possible than there are particles of matter in the universe. So the fact that you are here and existing with your combination is such a vanishingly small probability that it dwarfs any other forms of "luck" you may be considering. You were never going to be born into another family. The entire position is not rational.

You are here, the benefits conferred onto you by your parents and previous generation are not random, they are the product of good decisions, and better information. What one person sees as lucky, another person sees a situation that was planned and executed by the parents.

Look at the inverse: do you think a radiologist parent who has kids that end up being cardiologists, would attribute any of that to luck? No, that parent had a kid with a chosen mate (who was probably also smart if the statistics are to be believed), and then made a series of deliberate parenting decisions over years to ensure their child had a path to success. I think that parent would rightfully bristle at the notion that any of that was luck.



Ok that’s fine, if we take that position there is absolutely no such thing as luck. You’ve exactly proved my point without realizing. People’s futures are predetermined in your view of the universe, I can accept that, it makes a lot of sense.

You’ve exactly shown what you tried to discount earlier in this thread. People are a product of everything that has led up to the present day. Nothing they will do will change their path in life as reducing down to the atomic level all processes were set in motion in a particular path some undetermined time ago. Thus looking down on people for their situation thinking something other than the predetermined path got you to where you are now. Something that you did that you could have otherwise not done made you who you are today as opposed to some poor degenerate.

[Buster]

I didn't say any of that.

[J-hop]

Belittling someone’s success because they were born to parents with above average wealth makes about as much sense as belittling someone who was born with above average intelligence. Personally I would take smarts over a couple of bucks any day of the week. You could have every advantage in the world but if you don’t make good decisions in life you will get nowhere.

Chalking it all up to luck is convenient and lazy reasoning. There is no sense basing your world view around circumstances that are out of your control. Luck doesn’t exist, it’s just a way people feel comfortable rationalizing what they can’t control.

I think this obsession with “luck” is rooted in the idea that people still think, in aggregate, life is fair. It’s not, it just is. You either accept that or wallow in platitudes.

Everyone likes to poke holes in the success of others, I think most would be better off spending their time looking inward instead.

Not belittling anyone’s success. People just have a pompous view that their success is independent of the cards they were dealt in life (whether you call that luck or predetermination).

[killramos]

You have very conveniently managed to leave out the entire concept of personal decision making yet again and found a new angle to absolve people of responsibility for their choices.

[J-hop]

I didn't say any of that.


You suggested predeterminaion - ie: you were never going to be born into a different family. That is fine, the path that led up to be born into family x couldn’t have been any other way.

So get rid of luck, because you seem to dislike that term fine. Do you not agree you had absolutely no choice in what family you were born into and therefore absolutely no choice in the values, resources and role models that were given to you via birth?

I hope you can agree with that statement. Further I hope you can see that you have no control over the resources, values and role models or lack there of that are provided to you in your early developing years and suggesting this has no impact on how you end up is IMO ridiculous

- - - Updated - - -


You have very conveniently managed to leave out the entire concept of personal decision making yet again and found a new angle to absolve people of responsibility for their choices.

I’m not absolving a single person from the responsibility of their choices. Too many people just don’t realize the impact what family, culture, country they were born into has on their success in life and attribute it all to themselves. Not realizing they were afforded opportunities they wouldnt otherwise be able to benefit from.

[suntan]

That logic is meaningless. It's entirely luck that any person is here at all, in their form. If I recall that stats correctly, there are more combinations of human DNA possible than there are particles of matter in the universe. So the fact that you are here and existing with your combination is such a vanishingly small probability that it dwarfs any other forms of "luck" you may be considering. You were never going to be born into another family. The entire position is not rational.

You are here, the benefits conferred onto you by your parents and previous generation are not random, they are the product of good decisions, and better information. What one person sees as lucky, another person sees a situation that was planned and executed by the parents.

Look at the inverse: do you think a radiologist parent who has kids that end up being cardiologists, would attribute any of that to luck? No, that parent had a kid with a chosen mate (who was probably also smart if the statistics are to be believed), and then made a series of deliberate parenting decisions over years to ensure their child had a path to success. I think that parent would rightfully bristle at the notion that any of that was luck.

Too much a posteriori and circular logic.

[Buster]

You suggested predeterminaion - ie: you were never going to be born into a different family. That is fine, the path that led up to be born into family x couldn’t have been any other way.

So get rid of luck, because you seem to dislike that term fine. Do you not agree you had absolutely no choice in what family you were born into and therefore absolutely no choice in the values, resources and role models that were given to you via birth?

I hope you can agree with that statement. Further I hope you can see that you have no control over the resources, values and role models or lack there of that are provided to you in your early developing years and suggesting this has no impact on how you end up is IMO ridiculous

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I’m not absolving a single person from the responsibility of their choices. Too many people just don’t realize the impact what family, culture, country they were born into has on their success in life and attribute it all to themselves. Not realizing they were afforded opportunities they wouldnt otherwise be able to benefit from.

Pointing out probabilities associated with genetics is hardly trying to establish predetermination. Quite the opposite. It's a "so what you're saying..." situation.

[max_boost]

Feels like you guys are saying the same thing except J-hop calls it luck and Buster calls it good parenting lol

[J-hop]

Pointing out probabilities associated with genetics is hardly trying to establish predetermination. Quite the opposite. It's a "so what you're saying..." situation.

Ok I misrepresented what you said, i apologize for that, a lot of what you said hinted to me you might be coming at it from a predetermined perspective. As if you work your way back through the logic you use at least suggests a reduction of the degrees of freedom within ones life.

But ignore all that, ignore chance etc and consider the question I pose around the control one has over the opportunities afforded to them via birth and how that influences success in their life


Feels like you guys are saying the same thing except J-hop calls it luck and Buster calls it good parenting lol


I feel exactly the same although I would clarify that in my eyes from the child’s perspective it’s complete luck who they got as parents, I don’t think my argument fails if you throw away the word luck and I think Buster actually has fully supported my foundational arguement without realizing it

[ercchry]

Feels like you guys are saying the same thing except J-hop calls it luck and Buster calls it good parenting lol

Either kids will fall in line with their parents, or rebel against them... plenty of success stories of people that had deadbeat parents. J-hop’s stance completely undermines those people’s success. All you’re going to see as an outsider is someone more successful than yourself, not the path that lead to that success

Even my own story, i’ve done everything wrong in their eyes... while my brother followed the path they laid out for him. Same schools, same parents, only a two year difference. Completely different paths

[J-hop]

Either kids will fall in line with their parents, or rebel against them... plenty of success stories of people that had deadbeat parents. J-hop’s stance completely undermines those people’s success. All you’re going to see as an outsider is someone more successful than yourself, not the path that lead to that success

Even my own story, i’ve done everything wrong in their eyes... while my brother followed the path they laid out for him. Same schools, same parents, only a two year difference. Completely different paths

im actually not undermining the success of people that were able to pull themselves up by their bootstraps so to speak (actually 100% the opposite!). I’m pretty sure that is clear if you read back.

[ercchry]

im actually not undermining the success of people that were able to pull themselves up by their bootstraps so to speak (actually 100% the opposite!). I’m pretty sure that is clear if you read back.

No, you message has been success= luck and silver spoon

You make assumptions based on age and vehicle choice, without actual knowing people’s stories. Your message also comes across as “if you didn’t have a helping hand you can’t possibly succeed”

Don’t think I’m the only one with that takeaway.. perhaps work on your delivery

Also this obsession with structured education... I don’t get it. Most of the people that finish post secondary used it as nothing more than training to be an employee... that’s not how you’re going to jump classes. Also your view on risk is strange. I would argue that there is much more risk on someone with a silver spoon... why? Well... they have a long way to fall, shame of disappointment, etc... what’s the risk of putting yourself out there to try something different if you’re already at the bottom?

[J-hop]

No, you message has been success= luck and silver spoon

You make assumptions based on age and vehicle choice, without actual knowing people’s stories. Your message also comes across as “if you didn’t have a helping hand you can’t possibly succeed”

Don’t think I’m the only one with that takeaway.. perhaps work on your delivery

What? Where are you getting that.

My message this entire time has been people with a silver spoon are setup up leaps and bounds above others to succeed. Never once has it been success=silver spoon. Never once did I suggest that, read back man


Edit: missed your edit, I simply used education as one example. For a lot of jobs the previous generation could get into without a degree now the baseline entry qualifications are having a degree. That was simply one example. Someone that can’t afford a degree can’t even hope to get into those jobs anymore.

Maybe risk was the wrong term but to clarify, someone with a silver spoon can take 4 years off of really working as they don’t have to worry about debt. Someone that has no safety net is taking a huge risk by taking off 4 years from serious work and building up debt because it isn’t 100% gaurunteed they can get a job after and be net positive on their degree investment in a reasonable amount of time to allow them to buy a house, car etc.

[ercchry]

What? Where are you getting that.

My message this entire time has been people with a silver spoon are setup up leaps and bounds above others to succeed. Never once has it been success=silver spoon. Never once did I suggest that, read back man


Yeah no, even with the deleted post... still the takeaway. You are still making assumptions about people’s personal situations based off a snapshot of what you perceive

[J-hop]

Yeah no, even with the deleted post... still the takeaway. You are still making assumptions about people’s personal situations based off a snapshot of what you perceive

I made no such claim, read again.

I also responded to your ninja edit.

I will again say, in no way shape or form am I suggesting success equals silver spoon. What I’m saying is silver spoon more often then not equals success as you are given opportunities most people aren’t.

Please post what you are referring to, I’ve gone back and read and never did I even suggest that. I’ve suggested people that grew up with a silver spoon and overly credit themselves with their success while looking down on people with less success who had crappy cards dealt need to check themselves...

[ercchry]

I made no such claim, read again.

I also responded to your ninja edit.

I will again say, in no way shape or form am I suggesting success equals silver spoon. What I’m saying is silver spoon more often then not equals success as you are given opportunities most people aren’t.

Please post what you are referring to, I’ve gone back and read and never did I even suggest that. I’ve suggested people that grew up with a silver spoon and overly credit themselves with their success while looking down on people with less success who had crappy cards dealt need to check themselves...

Your perception is that of the silverspoon... and luck of course

The monetary position of a parent is not an automatic pampered life for the offspring, even sibling to sibling this can vary. Your entry into this debate was you discounting cjblair’s early accomplishments cause he didn’t come from the gutter. I have met and learned the stories of so many from so many backgrounds that I can honestly say i’ve seen every outcome from every level.

The silverspoon argument is lazy, and discounts successes on either side of the equation, due to not actually knowing the background of whoever it is you are making the assumptions about.

It’s something that hits me personally, cause I stepped outside of the lines that were laid out for me and still succeeded even after essentially being “cut off” ...if you could even call it that? Cause I was a disappointment EARLY in life and didn’t see much benefits at all outside of the basics of food/shelter/clothes. But people meet my parents and instantly my successes are discounted as being “silverspoon” fed... which is hilarious considering even my parents didn’t see their current level of success till I was in my late teens even