Out door trim lights.

[ganesh]

I am looking to put some outdoor trim lights on my house. That way I can get away with not spending money every year on putting the Christmas lights up and taking them down.
I got quote from the following two,
1) Trim Lights (https://www.trimlight.com/) BavarianBeast used to own this company.
The guy came to do the quote on my house wasn't prepared at all. He wasn't able to explain the product and the App they use is a 3rd party app. He wasn't able to demonstrate the app. Their product comes with 10 Yr warranty.

2) Gem Stones Lights (http://gemstonelights.com/)
One of my neighbors has this installed on their house. It is very low profile. It looks pretty good.
The guy who came to do the quote was very professional and able to explain everything about their product. He also pointed out the difference between them and Trim Lights.
They use their own app. Lights comes with 3 Yr Warranty.

The Price difference between the two products is about 30%.

My question is has anyone here installed these lights on your home? If so can your share your experience?

Thanks

[KPHMPH]

We just recently finished up with Gemstone. Love how fast they went up, how professional the guy was and how reasonable he was when it came to finalizing the price. We lived close to him so he brought us to his house for a demonstration which was pretty cool.

Realistically we got them for the pot light feature around the house and not having to put up Xmas lights anymore.

[thinmyster]

Saw these on Facebook. I’d like to hear more of your experience. What was the rough cost per sf. Any regrets?

[ganesh]

We just recently finished up with Gemstone. Love how fast they went up, how professional the guy was and how reasonable he was when it came to finalizing the price. We lived close to him so he brought us to his house for a demonstration which was pretty cool.

Realistically we got them for the pot light feature around the house and not having to put up Xmas lights anymore.

Interesting. What did you meant by finalizing the price? Did he move on the price?

[KPHMPH]

Yes, seeing as I was the first on my street we discussed price afterwards.

It is roughly $21/ft.

[ganesh]

Thanks KPHMPH, that is what he quoted me as well.

[88CRX]

Some of them are pretty conceiled when not on, while others stand out like xmas lights in the summer.... depending on your soffit colour.

[ganesh]

Some of them are pretty conceived when not on, while others stand out like xmas lights in the summer.... depending on your soffit colour.

True. Both of these companies will color match tracks to your Soffit. Gemstones tracks is low profile so it blends well with the soffit.

[KPHMPH]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v76/bonder45/63242C40-6C19-443C-850C-74C75EDDC327_zpsaxxkrmkq.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v76/bonder45/ECE7B9F4-6D3A-4968-88AC-C40E72A65151_zpstddqbrtr.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v76/bonder45/065894DD-7667-499D-AE76-834186680512_zpsousct5do.jpg

[thinmyster]

Looks good! have any pictures with them setup to be 'pot lights'? I noticed you already had potlights at the rear

[KPHMPH]

Since they’ve been installed I have not been home to play with them.

I should be home in September so I’ll try to remember to post! Haha

Those pot lights, well I have no f’n clue where the light switch is for them... :/

[ganesh]

Looks good. I am leaning towards going with Gemstone as well.

[BavarianBeast]

I used to own Trimlight Calgary and I had the product installed at my house. I think they are the highest quality out there, and I also think that they look the best. A few friends and family also have the product installed and they are very happy with it as well. Was it a gentleman named Curtis who came to do the quote? Sorry to hear they weren’t prepared, I had a pretty awesome demo kit that was supposed to be used to show potential customers. I’ve got a ton of different themes for every holiday, nice to be able to make them strobe on Halloween. Bummed to hear they weren’t prepared, tons of potential!

[ganesh]

I used to own Trimlight Calgary and I had the product installed at my house. I think they are the highest quality out there, and I also think that they look the best. A few friends and family also have the product installed and they are very happy with it as well. Was it a gentleman named Curtis who came to do the quote? Sorry to hear they weren’t prepared, I had a pretty awesome demo kit that was supposed to be used to show potential customers. I’ve got a ton of different themes for every holiday, nice to be able to make them strobe on Halloween. Bummed to hear they weren’t prepared, tons of potential!
It was Chris. He showed up with a 2 feet trim light. He said that he was in a hurry to get out of the house so he didn't get a chance to grab the demo box.
We asked him whether he can show us the app and he said that he can't launch the app. I felt that he was dodging that question. I asked some specific questions on app whether the app is compatible with IFTT or any other scheduling apps and he again wasn't able to directly answer that question except to say there is a timer on the app.
He kept on referring to a install which was couple of blocks from my house and asked us to go and see that house.

[Chester]

Bump

Looking at get these lights, how are they holding up?

[The_Penguin]

Bump

Looking at get these lights, how are they holding up?

A family member got the Gemstone lights about 2 years go, so far so good. We're getting them this year as well. Getting too old to be putting up lights.

[Chester]

A family member got the Gemstone lights about 2 years go, so far so good. We're getting them this year as well. Getting too old to be putting up lights.

Did you get a quote already?

[Paul]

We’ve got Gemstone coming to install our lights next Tuesday. Quote system is super easy online, fill in the form and a couple days later you’ll get an email with pics of your house and where the lights will go, Power box will be placed and pricing.
For our 2 story home it’s about $3k all in, but I had to pay a little more to have the power box located somewhere other than where their quote had it going.

[ganesh]

I went with Gemstones. For front and back it is just over 4K. Super happy with it. Easy to use and low profile and you don't even notice them.

[BavarianBeast]

Not to be biased but Trimlight does put the best light out. There is a reason I bought into that technology.

Know that I have zero stake in the company anymore.

[The_Penguin]

Did you get a quote already?
Yes, not cheap. About $3000 just for the front. But that's the main level with a big peak over the garage, then the upper level with 2 peaks.

[Chester]

Thanks for the replies, going to get a quote.

[The_Penguin]

Looks like ours are going up now.
88317

[Chester]

Looks like ours are going up now.
88317

Let's see some pics!

[thinmyster]

We did gemstone also on 3 sides of our house

[chongkee_]

What's the average per feet cost nowadays with Gemstone?
Considering getting it done this year.
PM me if you don't want to post here.

[ganesh]

What's the average per feet cost nowadays with Gemstone?
Considering getting it done this year.
PM me if you don't want to post here.

It is $21/feet.
Add $ 150 for control box.

[Thaco]

i am in the wrong business this stuff is dead easy now and can be DIY'd for like $0.50/ft

[thinmyster]

It is $21/feet.
Add $ 150 for control box.


i am in the wrong business this stuff is dead easy now and can be DIY'd for like $0.50/ft

Haha yup!

[bjstare]

Links to DIY materials/kits?

[The_Penguin]

i am in the wrong business this stuff is dead easy now and can be DIY'd for like $0.50/ft

The Gemstones are a couple levels higher-end than the DIY LED strips. each light is 3 4-colour LEDs in a plastic housing, facing down. Great look from the street, plus facing down illuminates the house/ground as well, making them great for other applications than Christmas. Nicely spaced in an aluminum track that matches the soffits, and hides all wiring.
They are wired with multiple power feeds, so the end sections are just as bright as the sections near the power source.

Not defending the price, no affiliation to the company, they're still way more expensive than they should be, just saying they're considerably more than the cheap Chinese strips.88340

[The_Penguin]

Let's see some pics!

Soon. Once the install is finished. A section of the roof was not safely accessible with the recent snow. Probably Monday.

[sabad66]

I was getting ads for these on Facebook, was always curious how much they costed. Holy shit, didn’t think it was $21 a foot! I just wrapped my house with c6 LEDs and used 7 boxes * 33 feet... if I went with this it would have cost me over 5 grand.

That said if I was wealthy I definitely would do it, but seems way out of reach for middle class people.

[Chester]

I got a quote, actually not bad, probably going to go ahead and do it.

[Paul]

I got a quote, actually not bad, probably going to go ahead and do it.

Did they give an estimate as to your install date?
Mine was supposed to be today but I’m guessing the snow will delay that

[spike98]

I had trimlights installed last year. Love the product. They are much better than the LED strips i had previously. The install was quick but i do have to say the setup and demo was something to be desired. Overall pretty satisfied.

That said, i am pissed that i am moving this year so basically i tossed money away as it provides almost ZERO resale value.

[chongkee_]

Who did you go with? Gemstone as well?

[The_Penguin]

Let's see some pics!

Installer came back yesterday with a bucket unit to finish the high spots.
A couple quick pics last night. I think the long exposure makes the ambient light look a bit brighter than it really is.

883658836688367

[roopi]

On occasion when I see some houses with these lights this is what I see

https://img1.wsimg.com/isteam/ip/55f92099-31dc-4557-84a4-66dbaf44c005/raptor%202.jpg/:/

[Chester]

Installer came back yesterday with a bucket unit to finish the high spots.
A couple quick pics last night. I think the long exposure makes the ambient light look a bit brighter than it really is.

88365

Looks great.

- - - Updated - - -


Did they give an estimate as to your install date?
Mine was supposed to be today but I’m guessing the snow will delay that

I'm just in the middle of moving, haven't put the deposit down yet.

[BavarianBeast]

i am in the wrong business this stuff is dead easy now and can be DIY'd for like $0.50/ft

The returns are over 200% in most cases. Some homes are a bit difficult than others due to varying soffit/fascia design, corbels or other design factors. They are usually priced into the job as some sort of risk though.

The key is being the one who owns and understands the technology.

With Gemstone/Heilight/Trimlight all operating in Calgary you would have to do something pretty radical to gain consumers attention.

[ExtraSlow]

Thaco-light opens 2020

[The_Penguin]

On occasion when I see some houses with these lights this is what I see





:rofl:

Yeah that crossed my mind too.

[mr2mike]

Any place to fix my sunken windows? Looking for that hellaflush look on my house, no drip edge, no sills.

[ExtraSlow]

Any place to fix my sunken windows? Looking for that hellaflush look on my house, no drip edge, no sills.

Need some poke.

[thinmyster]

Any of you guys had any issues with your Gemstone lights so far?

[The_Penguin]

Interesting difference between Trimlight and Gemstone. Gemstone looks cleaner to me, lower profile track, lights seem less conspicuous.

Trimlight

88379


Gemstone

88380

[ThePenIsMightier]

The returns are over 200% in most cases. Some homes are a bit difficult than others due to varying soffit/fascia design, corbels or other design factors. They are usually priced into the job as some sort of risk though.

The key is being the one who owns and understands the technology.

With Gemstone/Heilight/Trimlight all operating in Calgary you would have to do something pretty radical to gain consumers attention.

I suspect it's labour and insurance for the dangerous work performed at multiple, variable sites. It's a lot of work in order to perform it safely.

[Thaco]

oh yeah for sure i bet labour/insurance/equipment rentals is the biggest expense, the cost of the hardware is pretty low if you're not in a hurry and have time to DIY.

[JfuckinC]

anyone have the link to the DIY stuff?

[mr2mike]

I'm going to take a closer look at a neighbouring house. I swear they did strip lighting but it's perfectly straight and looks great.
It's also a bungalow with a low pitch A line roof. So easier for a DIY.

[Chandler_Racing]

7 people on my street have these lights now.

I had them quoted last year by Gemstone. First time they came and quoted the wrong house and then it took two+ weeks to answer 3-4 questions so was some what turned off.

Hard to justify $4-5,000 just do the front of my house and a few feet into the side yard.

[Thaco]

For the DIY Lights, this is a great starter video with examples of the different styles and methods of installation.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tXvtxwK3jRk&t=281s

[mr2mike]

This place is easy enough for a DIY
88388

There's going to be so many knock offs soon and it's going to look terrible.

Edit: watched that video. Insanely easy. I'm in for the install company.

[Thaco]

This place is easy enough for a DIY
88388

There's going to be so many knock offs soon and it's going to look terrible.

Edit: watched that video. Insanely easy. I'm in for the install company.

looks like trimlight actually uses the same WS2811's

[Paul]

No issues so far, only had them a couple of days.
Happy with the install, I’m anal about seeing wires and this was done very clean.
Theme options are cool, there’s dozens you can download to the app (from Disney, Flames, Christmas, etc)
I’ll have to spend some more time with them but for the price to never have to get on a ladder or my roof I’m a satisfied customer

[pheoxs]

looks like trimlight actually uses the same WS2811's

Pretty crazy some of the markups. WS2812's are like 20$ for a 5 meter weather sealed strip. Although then you have to splice them together and get a controller/power supply as well.

[ExtraSlow]

When you are thinking about the cost to run a business that installs this stuff, I'm sure materials aren't their biggest expense.

[mr2mike]

Did I mention my install company is un-bonded and cash only? It's more environmentally friendly. Less paper. :)

[Thaco]

When you are thinking about the cost to run a business that installs this stuff, I'm sure materials aren't their biggest expense.

yeah i mentioend that previously i was referring to a DIY thing more than a business, seems like it'd have a lot of crossover and shared costs if you had a landscaping company or some other type of company that has insurance and uses lifts. Everything is low voltage too so it doesn't need permits

[ExtraSlow]

Be an awesome addition to a landscaping company, I agree.

[2002civic]

Bump

Based on some research and this thread I'm leaning towards gemstone. Was everyone $21/foot or has anyone negotiated on the price? We're looking around $7,000 + for front and back on our place and wondering if they have cheaper/slower times etc.

[mr2mike]

Disappointed.
Came here thinking someone has tonnes of time and used Thaco's diy posts.

[ExtraSlow]

Disappointed.
Came here thinking someone has tonnes of time and used Thaco's diy posts.

Someone should do that. Not mike, but someone.

[The_Penguin]

Bump

Based on some research and this thread I'm leaning towards gemstone. Was everyone $21/foot or has anyone negotiated on the price? We're looking around $7,000 + for front and back on our place and wondering if they have cheaper/slower times etc.

We got a bit below 20 based on a family member working for a company that promotes them, and another family member who purchased.

[thinmyster]

We got about 10%. Same with friends of ours.

[2002civic]

We got about 10%. Same with friends of ours.

Thanks, was that Gemstone or Trimlight?

Everyone still happy with their lights?

[mr2mike]

Someone should do that. Not mike, but someone.
I did a lot of research on this and programming them during Christmas break. My house will more than likely be torn down in 5 years or less, not putting a cent into this current place.

[The_Penguin]

Still quite happy with Gemstone. Having seen the install at my son's place, compared to the photos on Trimlight's website (I think I posted the 2 earlier in the thread) the difference was enough to sway our decision. Have not compared the 2 on, at night from a distance, maybe there's less of a difference then.

[B.Spilner]

Getting a quote this week from sherwood park location. Will report back with costs.

Any updates or feedback?

[s2k_boi]

Bump...

So just got a quote on Gemstone. Are you guys still happy with it? Any issues?

Haven't gotten a quote from competitors such as Trimlight or Watts yet. That being said anyone have any feedback on the competitions?

[2002civic]

Looking at watts, about 15-20% cheaper than gemstone, seem to be really similar, but also would love any feedback

[drtoohotty1]

I was bored over the pandemic and decided to try the DIY route, total cost was about 600 and after a year they are still working perfectly.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XN988NPzxG8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_PI38-Xt2_I

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9X03jC__LiI

And this is what they look like in the day time

100612

[ThePenIsMightier]

^That's cool!
How are they installed? (What holds them up there)?

[drtoohotty1]

Thanks, they are these https://www.amazon.ca/BTF-LIGHTING-300LEDs-Addressable-Flexible-Non-waterproof/dp/B01CNL6K52/ref=sr_1_13?dchild=1&keywords=btf+led&qid=1626186716&sr=8-13

held in by these https://www.amazon.ca/aluminium-Installation-Professional-Complete-Mounting/dp/B01MZ0N4A2/ref=sr_1_2_sspa?dchild=1&keywords=v+channel&qid=1626186913&sr=8-2-spons&psc=1&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUEzVE1SSE5CMjNUOUtBJmVuY3J5cHRlZElkPUEwNTAzMzM4MkwzU0hFUlk1UThJRyZlbmNyeXB0ZWRBZElkPUEwNTY2MDYxMlVOWlZJWTdOWEhDNSZ3aWRnZXROYW1lPXNwX2F0ZiZhY3Rpb249Y2xpY2tSZWRpcmVjdCZkb05vdExvZ0NsaWNrPXRydWU=

and powered by this https://quinled.info/2020/02/11/quinled-dig-uno-pre-assembled-available/

when I do the back I'm going to go even simpler and just buy this kit www.Permatrack.US

[ExtraSlow]

Thanks, they are these https://www.amazon.ca/BTF-LIGHTING-300LEDs-Addressable-Flexible-Non-waterproof/dp/B01CNL6K52/ref=sr_1_13?dchild=1&keywords=btf+led&qid=1626186716&sr=8-13

held in by these https://www.amazon.ca/aluminium-Installation-Professional-Complete-Mounting/dp/B01MZ0N4A2/ref=sr_1_2_sspa?dchild=1&keywords=v+channel&qid=1626186913&sr=8-2-spons&psc=1&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUEzVE1SSE5CMjNUOUtBJmVuY3J5cHRlZElkPUEwNTAzMzM4MkwzU0hFUlk1UThJRyZlbmNyeXB0ZWRBZElkPUEwNTY2MDYxMlVOWlZJWTdOWEhDNSZ3aWRnZXROYW1lPXNwX2F0ZiZhY3Rpb249Y2xpY2tSZWRpcmVjdCZkb05vdExvZ0NsaWNrPXRydWU=

and powered by this https://quinled.info/2020/02/11/quinled-dig-uno-pre-assembled-available/

when I do the back I'm going to go even simpler and just buy this kit www.Permatrack.US

Sick. I should do this as I'm far too cheap to pay for gemlights, but I want something I can install once and forget about.

[drtoohotty1]

I was in the same boat and with WLED pre done effects there is over 100 different combinations for any event you can think of.

[Thaco]

Sick. I should do this as I'm far too cheap to pay for gemlights, but I want something I can install once and forget about.

just make sure you put the power supply it on a switched outlet or somewhere it can be easily reached, they do need to be power cycled occasionally.

[schurchill39]

Has anyone got 2021 quotes or install from Gemstone or Trimlight? Just wondering if $21 is still the going rate or if prices have come down a bit? Looking at drtoohotty1 's PermaTrack kit I'd be about $1100 CND plus bullshit border fees. Trying to weigh my options.

[2002civic]

Gemstone is still around $21 and they seem to be booked solid so don't see a drop anytime soon. Watt's is a new competitor that seems really similar to gemstone and they were offering $15-16/foot, not sure if that promo is still on.

[spike98]

Has anyone got 2021 quotes or install from Gemstone or Trimlight? Just wondering if $21 is still the going rate or if prices have come down a bit? Looking at drtoohotty1 's PermaTrack kit I'd be about $1100 CND plus bullshit border fees. Trying to weigh my options.

I think me and some buddies around the block are going the DIY route. We will save on shipping and pitch in to rent a genie lift for a weekend to get it all done. Should come in at half the cost of trim lights.

[drtoohotty1]

I think me and some buddies around the block are going the DIY route. We will save on shipping and pitch in to rent a genie lift for a weekend to get it all done. Should come in at half the cost of trim lights.

Let me know if you do I will jump in on that group buy.

[ExtraSlow]

Did I mention my install company is un-bonded and cash only? It's more environmentally friendly. Less paper. :)

Did some Amazon ordering, just enough material to do one side of garage in back yard. If that looks good for Christmas I'll see about the rest in spring. If I have problems, I'm sure mr2mike can assist for a very reasonable hourly rate.

[mr2mike]

I'll assist you draining your vodka reserves.


Also saw these guys on YouTube making kits. Seems legit.
https://www.permatrack.us/shop/permatrack/

[ExtraSlow]

So, I had a little project hiatus over December and january, but did make some progress. Initially had issues with the Wifi controller, just couldn't get ti connected to the app on my phone, and that's the only way to do anything. Lights would run through a very pretty demo pattern, but zero control. Sent wifi controller back to amazon for refund, and got a Bluetooth one. Same company, but the app is incredibly different. Works reasonably well, has 200 preset programs, and speed and brightness control, which isn't bad. Strangely, if I choose a solid colour, the light end up a different color than the app says, which is freaky. App says blue, lights turn green, that sort of thing.

May check out alternative apps. The youtubes make it look like that's a thing, and that might be nice. Still not sure if this hardware and software combo is something I'd want on my entire house. If I did, I'd for sure want to do a lot of planning for the install. Right now, the disco lights in my yard are good enough.

if anyone has experience with other SP105E apps, let me know.

[mr2mike]

All I know:
https://kno.wled.ge/basics/compatible-software/

[ExtraSlow]

Don't think I can use WLED with my SP105e Bluetooth controller.

[pheoxs]

Strangely, if I choose a solid colour, the light end up a different color than the app says, which is freaky. App says blue, lights turn green, that sort of thing.


if anyone has experience with other SP105E apps, let me know.

Some LED chips are RGB while others are GBR. In WLED there is options to select the color order, not sure if SP105e supports that though. You could/should be able to use any WLED controller on those strips though, they're almost all the same WS2812 (or equivalent) strips anyways.

[ExtraSlow]

Yes, I can buy a different controller and use WLED. But would be tickled to find an additional app option that works with this current controller, since I bought it. My strips are ws2811 type.

Maybe I should be gbr. Can verify easily.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/Rd1LCYRZEQQpLBZ18

[ExtraSlow]

Well, BRG works to make the colors as advertised. So that's something.

[403ep3]

Not sure if anyone is looking, but saw this guy post on the "Houses With Gemstone Lighting" Facebook group

"Jason Kohut

The Christmas rush is over, contact us for after season discounts to be ready for next year! We are an authorized Gemstone dealer in the area of Calgary & will beat any competitors price by 5%.
It’s not too late to make your home stand out all year! Send us an email with your name, phone number and address at [email protected]
We will come out, take measurements and email you within 48hrs with your free estimate. Mention this ad so we can apply your after season discount.
Alternatively you can private message me with your info."

[schurchill39]

How does the estimate process for Gemstone work? From what I can see on their website you just give them your address and someone comes by to measure it up then emails you a quote? Except you don't know when they will come so how do they know what you want done? Or do they just assume that most houses are just the front with X amount of wrap around on each side?

[nismodrifter]

Yep that's basically what they do.

[mr2mike]

So close to finishing up on diy parts collection.
Just needing the metal work cost.

106936

106937

[pheoxs]

How does the estimate process for Gemstone work? From what I can see on their website you just give them your address and someone comes by to measure it up then emails you a quote? Except you don't know when they will come so how do they know what you want done? Or do they just assume that most houses are just the front with X amount of wrap around on each side?

With google street view having pretty clear pictures and being able to measure reference distances I wouldn’t be surprised if they estimate it virtually. Pretty easy to see a 50 foot wide house, two storeys, looks like it’s 30 feet deep, etc

[ganesh]

How does the estimate process for Gemstone work? From what I can see on their website you just give them your address and someone comes by to measure it up then emails you a quote? Except you don't know when they will come so how do they know what you want done? Or do they just assume that most houses are just the front with X amount of wrap around on each side?

When they did our house 4 years ago they took pics and drew a red line on the pic to indicate where and where the lights are going to go. For the sides they marked the length because some people go with it and the others don't.
Picture also showed the location of the controller.
They gave us an Appointment and when they were at the property they called me to say that they are at the house.
As for what you want when the called to book the appointment they asked what we want.
Keep in mind this was 4 years ago things may have changed by now.

[bjstare]

So close to finishing up on diy parts collection.
Just needing the metal work cost.

106936

106937

You might be the first person I’ve come across outside my family that has heard of signalta haha.

[Rocket1k78]

How does the estimate process for Gemstone work? From what I can see on their website you just give them your address and someone comes by to measure it up then emails you a quote? Except you don't know when they will come so how do they know what you want done? Or do they just assume that most houses are just the front with X amount of wrap around on each side?

Pretty much your last part, you'd basically want all the eaves trough areas done for the front. They quoted ours about a month ago and the only real option i could do was run it down the whole length of the side of the garage or end it 5ft from the corner to save some costs.

[schurchill39]

Pretty much your last part, you'd basically want all the eaves trough areas done for the front. They quoted ours about a month ago and the only real option i could do was run it down the whole length of the side of the garage or end it 5ft from the corner to save some costs.

They actually came by this morning and I caught them creeping out the window so I talked to the estimator a bit. I got the quote about 3 hours later and it was actually a pretty reasonable price. It lined up with my own estimate of $21/ft + $225 for the controller.

[Doozer]

Similar, I submitted my request last night, and the guy came by this morning. Got the quote within an hour of that. Didn't say the total linear footage that they're estimating, but came in higher than I was expecting. Now decisions.