Role models and masculinity

[tonytiger55]

Growing up my dad was always working, I hardly saw him and when I did see he was drunk outa his head.

I've spent a long time making a fuckton of mistakes and figuring out what is masculinity and what traits are needed to be a man and navigate the world. I had no guidance and those that tried helping just ended up abusing me or taking advantage of me.
(Mods please move if need be, ive placed this in health as some of this might cover mental health).

Don't laugh..for me these have been figuring out really simple things like shaving, grooming, speaking, understanding social hierarchy, understanding social and emotional intelligence, men's health, mental health, finances, critical thinking, women's real nature and having a purpose.
Undoing old habits and learning new ways of thinking and processing information.

I remember buying books and reading magazines and it was a struggle. I figured out a lot (sometimes too late). Now with the internet forums and youtube, it has been a much better and the knowledge has even validated my lessons at times.
Ive ended up helping a lot of my male friends(some female too). But I am still learning.

When I got stuck in an area, i.e gym/working out.. I tried to get around this and failed. But then I stopped and read up on people who have made it in that field. For example.. like Arnold Schwarzenegger, Inventors/mechanics, biographies of sports people etc Only then I really started to make proper progress. The same applied to other areas.

My question is when you were growing up who were your male role models? Was there anything fundamental that your father or male figure taught you..?
What masculine traits did you find important that really helped you? Were there any hobbies that helped develop these..?
Were there a particular role model that helped/inspired a particular area in your life or a moment of your life?

[revelations]

Similar upbringing; other than food on the table, there was little respect for our parents. They were the last role models anyone would have wanted. Angry, talked about others instead of ideas, religious nuts, etc.

As a teenager (depressed) I found myself gravitating towards TV personalities that were male, strong, quiet yet assertive and somewhat militaristic (duty and honour) and applied logic to most challenges, instead of emotion.

One of the happiest days of my life was leaving home and then finding myself behaving in that type of rational manner (instead of emotional, that was our home).

[firebane]

There just isn't enough in me to even bother trying to go into this.

I will just say that becoming separated 100% from my family was the best move of my life.

[ercchry]

my parents were a good mix (hard ass father, caring mother)... but both worked full time and there was a 4yr block there that my father was basically MIA between working mon-fri in San fran, and then doing his MBA(or the other way around?)... important years for me being an 8-12 year old.

i had some good couches for various sports... my uncle was around a lot in the summer. very smart and successful human, i was his godson so was his world till he had his own family. learned a lot about respect and work ethic.

but hands down, #1 was my grandfather. not only was he just a great man but he was also from that era where a man acted a certain way, and was able to do things for himself. taught me how to do so many things, the right way to speak to people, everything. in my youth i probably had 10x more quality time throughout the year with him than with my own father.

its one thing to learn the right ways to do thing, but i think its also a powerful lesson to experience people that teach you what NOT to do, knowing the distinction between the two is the hard part

little mix of everything from all these people. very unique outcome because of it. good, bad? still dont know :rofl:

[bigbadboss101]

Similar upbringing; other than food on the table, there was little respect for our parents. They were the last role models anyone would have wanted. Angry, talked about others instead of ideas, religious nuts, etc.

As a teenager (depressed) I found myself gravitating towards TV personalities that were male, strong, quiet yet assertive and somewhat militaristic (duty and honour) and applied logic to most challenges, instead of emotion.

One of the happiest days of my life was leaving home and then finding myself behaving in that type of rational manner (instead of emotional, that was our home).

Are you able to have decent communication with your folks now?

[JustinL]

I don't necessarily think of it as a masculine trait, but confidence in one's self is something I learned from my dad. I hear a lot of people say "I could never do that" to all kinds of things that appear to be hard, I'd like to think I've got more of the "how hard could it be" attitude. My dad was always fixing things and tinkering with mechanical things as well as wrestling with mathematical concepts as a hobby. For me seeing that struggling with a problem is not something to be afraid of was the best thing for me.

As a hobby, racing cars is an exercise in doing something that's hard because it's fun and it isn't supposed to be easy.

Here's a JFK quote for you too: "We choose to go to the Moon! We choose to go to the Moon in this decade and do the other things, not because they are easy, but because they are hard"

[revelations]

Are you able to have decent communication with your folks now?

No, its like talking to a recorded message with them. Same questions, same answers everytime.

[benyl]

its one thing to learn the right ways to do thing, but i think its also a powerful lesson to experience people that teach you what NOT to do, knowing the distinction between the two is the hard part


It's hard for people to do this now. Parents are so sensitive. If I told my nephew to chew with his mouth closed because it is fucking rude and gross to watch him masticate, I am sure his mother would have a hissy fit. I am a big beiever in teaching my own kids how to behave and how NOT to behave. People see that as negative, I see it as the way it should be. Too many kids/people have no respect for authority and cannot even recognize authority.

My dad was around, but didn't really teach me much. My mom did that. But she comes from a really patriarchal culture. Boy / men are awesome. haha, girls not so much. I learned to shave myself, etc.

This whole societal construct of masculine vs feminine isn't something I care about. "Be a man" is bullshit in my eyes. Maybe it is because I have a daughter. I wish people would just be a "stand up human beings" as "being a man" is sometimes the shitty version.

[EK 2.0]

This whole societal construct of masculine vs feminine isn't something I care about. "Be a man" is bullshit in my eyes. Maybe it is because I have a daughter. I wish people would just be a "stand up human beings" as "being a man" is sometimes the shitty version.



This...100 percent this...

[ercchry]

yeah, the blue collar "man's man" BS is what i was eluding to with the whole what not to do thing... but you need to sometimes just experience someone who is like that and the consequences of their actions, and what path in life they're on now because of it to really have the "good" role model's lessons to sink in

[firebane]

The saying "be a man" can have so many ways of meaning that it heavily depends on who is saying it and how.

We live in such a fluffy culture where people are so butt hurt and take things to far that you can't say anything anymore without people getting emotional.

I also believe that masculine role models are a dying breed. How many people know how to do "manly" things like BBQ, work on cars, cut down a tree, chop wood... Etc.

Hell I consider a good firm handshake a manly thing but so many give such wet limp noodle shakes I'd rather you not shake my hand.

[J-hop]

The saying "be a man" can have so many ways of meaning that it heavily depends on who is saying it and how.

We live in such a fluffy culture where people are so butt hurt and take things to far that you can't say anything anymore without people getting emotional.

I also believe that masculine role models are a dying breed. How many people know how to do "manly" things like BBQ, work on cars, cut down a tree, chop wood... Etc.

Hell I consider a good firm handshake a manly thing but so many give such wet limp noodle shakes I'd rather you not shake my hand.

One of the problems with that in reality is most of the men I’ve met that think to be a man you need to haul heavy stuff, chop wood and do classical manly things are really little insecure losers in wolves clothing. Don’t get me wrong I’m not triggered by what you’re saying, I bbq, I turn wrenches, I have a truck, a muscle car and an old husqy chainsaw I know how to use.

But none of that defines a man does it?

[tonytiger55]

One of the problems with that in reality is most of the men I’ve met that think to be a man you need to haul heavy stuff, chop wood and do classical manly things are really little insecure losers in wolves clothing. Don’t get me wrong I’m not triggered by what you’re saying, I bbq, I turn wrenches, I have a truck, a muscle car and an old husqy chainsaw I know how to use.

But none of that defines a man does it?

So what do you think defines a man today..?

[firebane]

One of the problems with that in reality is most of the men I’ve met that think to be a man you need to haul heavy stuff, chop wood and do classical manly things are really little insecure losers in wolves clothing. Don’t get me wrong I’m not triggered by what you’re saying, I bbq, I turn wrenches, I have a truck, a muscle car and an old husqy chainsaw I know how to use.

But none of that defines a man does it?

Again it's all in who you ask. To me.. yes that is a great part of being a man amongst many other things.

[J-hop]

So what do you think defines a man today..?

I think someone mentioned it above, it’s all about confidence and security with yourself. It’s more a state of being than “doing things”

For example if you’d feel emasculated or insecure if say a woman had a faster car, could turn wrenches better than you, owned a bigger truck than you then to me you’re just an insecure person trying to put on a manly front by doing things you think are manly.

If you think turning wrenches is stupid then don’t do it. If you have no reason to own a chainsaw or an axe don’t go out of your way to make a reason. Just do whatever it is you do with confidence and integrity and leave the boys throw their dicks around.

I was actually working this weekend with a group of guys I didn’t know prior and the dick swinging was hilarious - “I carried those over there when I was 12”, “ I changed out this valve in a rain storm”. It was freaking hilarious to watch as a 3rd party. I just kept my mouth shut and shoveled while they tried to sort out who was the alpha.

[ercchry]

So what do you think defines a man today..?

I’m probably somewhere in the middle of firebane and jhop...

I think there is for sure an importance to the skills of yesteryear, but you can’t be an ignorant fool either. So many people get a complex cause they do something “manly” for a living and look down on those that ride a desk. But for me I think it’s also important to not only to have the hard skills to provide, but also the intellectual ability to do more for your family than overhaul the minivan on the weekend.

A man today needs to be well rounded in multiple facets, not just one. But to also be able to treat everyone form all walks of life with respect

[tonytiger55]

I think someone mentioned it above, it’s all about confidence and security with yourself. It’s more a state of being than “doing things”

For example if you’d feel emasculated or insecure if say a woman had a faster car, could turn wrenches better than you, owned a bigger truck than you then to me you’re just an insecure person trying to put on a manly front by doing things you think are manly.

If you think turning wrenches is stupid then don’t do it. If you have no reason to own a chainsaw or an axe don’t go out of your way to make a reason. Just do whatever it is you do with confidence and integrity and leave the boys throw their dicks around.

I was actually working this weekend with a group of guys I didn’t know prior and the dick swinging was hilarious - “I carried those over there when I was 12”, “ I changed out this valve in a rain storm”. It was freaking hilarious to watch as a 3rd party. I just kept my mouth shut and shoveled while they tried to sort out who was the alpha.

Interesting...
How did you learn or come to this viewpoint and is there any public figure that others can look upon to learn or develop this further..?

I mean it might sound obvious, but I had a similar discussion with a friend about other cultures, he thought it was easy just to think and come to the conclusions he did. I tried to explain that some people don't have the same type of upbringing or educaton on critial thinking and processing information.

[03ozwhip]

I grew up in a very messed up way, that I wont go into with strangers, but it fucked me up enough to know (later, after making alot of serious mistakes) that I didn't want to end up like my family.

I didn't have a Male role model. My dad was(is?) A POS and all of my moms BFs after the divorce and into the following marriage, were all POS.

I had to learn what a real man was later in life and on my own, in every single way. I always thought being a "badass" and a bully, made me a man when I was younger. So naive and what an idiot I was.

I finally have a father figure and role model in my FIL. It's never too late for a role model, i just wish he was there for me sooner. Now I'm just trying to be the real man/role model for my kid.

As for what a real man is though, Its subjective. I feel like for me, it's doing everything in my power to be a good person with everyone around me and doing everything I can to make my kid into a good person. Nothing to do with masculinity.

Chicks with muscles are masculine too.

[HiTempguy1]

A man and a father figure are leaders is the short and long of it. They make the hard decisions, and do what is necessary to get the task done.

Masculinity certainly differs from femininity, and there are a variety of reasons for it.

I've met a lot of guys who preach about masculinity being bad, and they're always the variety who ride a desk and are the stereotypical henpecked husband :rofl:

[J-hop]

A man and a father figure are leaders is the short and long of it. They make the hard decisions, and do what is necessary to get the task done.

Masculinity certainly differs from femininity, and there are a variety of reasons for it.

I've met a lot of guys who preach about masculinity being bad, and they're always the variety who ride a desk and are the stereotypical henpecked husband :rofl:

Since you singled out “desk jockeys” what in your view does the colour of ones collar have to do with being a man?

Isn’t providing for your family the single goal of a job?

[Darkane]

I sort of follow a classic movie and it actually fits in all of life:

Be nice. Be nice until it’s time to not be nice.

Also, be humble, generous, don’t gloat, help people if they need it. Make sure they deserve it though.

Be courteous and say thank you and you’re welcome.

But be strong, don’t allow emotions to control situations, read (yes read), don’t swear much, kiss your wife or girlfriend in public.

I can basically sum all of this up by saying this: Men have self control and discipline. Real Men anyway.

[HiTempguy1]

Since you singled out “desk jockeys” what in your view does the colour of ones collar have to do with being a man?

Isn’t providing for your family the single goal of a job?

I actually was using the term as someone just prior to my post used it.

I'm mostly a desk jockey now, have been for a while as I've grown in my role at the company. I never disparaged them, but I said a certain type of person (those who decry masculinity) are 100% of the time desk jockeys.

Not that 100% of desk jockeys were like that.

Of course, it leads into a wider conversation of why being a desk jockey could be taken as an insult, and that is simply because many jobs are useless and redundant. Nothing more emasculating than being at a job that doesn't need you, asks nothing of you, has no room for growth, and the person has few options to fix it (almost sounds like the way society treats men in the 21st century). A post-masculine world probably sounds pretty appealing to these guys so they don't have to suffer being judged about "manning up" and doing something besides getting stoned and watching netflix.

Edit-
I think Darkane's post sums it up rather succienctly. I would say that in general, I do follow that post in my own life. I personally believe that expressing emotion is not a problem, as long as you are aware that maybe you are being irrational. Being irrational is allowed, its a part of what makes us human.

Certainly, from a very masculinity focused viewpoint, calm and cool is the way to play it.

[J-hop]

Yea I can see what you mean about people working jobs that are redundant or not needed. I mostly see “desk jockey” used as an insult is all.

I’ve done both, I worked manual labor to help pay for uni. In those jobs I found I wasn’t overly intellectually challenged on a day to day basis but was definitely physically challenged. I now work a (technical) desk job. While I’m not physically drained when I get home as I was when I worked manual labor I’m mentally exhausted.

Both take a different kind of strength. Throw a Desk jockey into a highly demanding construction job they probably won’t fair too well under the physical demands, throw a construction worker into a highly demanding technical desk job and they’ll probably crack under the stress just as easily.

What I’m getting at is neither fairs well on the other side of the fence (with exceptions of course), but that failing can’t possibly detract from their level of “manliness”. So obviously what makes you a man isn’t WHAT you do, it’s in my eyes HOW you do it.

At the end of the day it doesn’t matter at all what you apply to your own life it matters if you can see outside your box and realize that shouldn’t what defines a man outside of your personal life.

To take my social views for example I am a firm believer that: following traditional family values doesn’t make you regressive, following new age family values doesn’t make you progressive. Believing your way is the right way is regressive, believing your way is A way is progressive.

Same thing applies to manliness

[vengie]

I sort of follow a classic movie and it actually fits in all of life:

Be nice. Be nice until it’s time to not be nice.

Also, be humble, generous, don’t gloat, help people if they need it. Make sure they deserve it though.

Be courteous and say thank you and you’re welcome.

But be strong, don’t allow emotions to control situations, read (yes read), don’t swear much, kiss your wife or girlfriend in public.

I can basically sum all of this up by saying this: Men have self control and discipline. Real Men anyway.

:thumbsup:

[max_boost]

Vulnerability and find your why.

[ExtraSlow]

Judge others by thier actions, and don't let your emotions control your actions.

That's my take.

Third rule is anyone who tries very hard to prove thier masculinity is to be avoided.

[Sugarphreak]

...

[LUDELVR]

This talk of masculinity in today's day and age is so volatile especially with such a strong push toward gender equality or neutrality. Back in the day, it was such a clear cut ideal of what masculinity is but now you would have the argument of, "why can't that be a trait found in women?" My wife and I seem to have A LOT of lesbian friends and they would argue to the death for the gender equality thing but truth be told, how can they teach that masculine/father know how that is passed down from father to son? How will they know what other guys are thinking and how they would react?

In the end, much of what it takes to become a good human being can be taught by either gendered parental figure but to the original topic, being taught how to shave, how to handle your wang etc. is still an important lesson that needs a masculine tutor and for me, I didn't have the internet and my father was pretty much next to useless. I had to acquire my lessons through friends, word of mouth, and sometimes magazines. It's not like today where you can YouTube how to do something. Like back in the day, I couldn't look up how to get my Super Nintendo to work but I figured it out from a friend that you had to blow in the cartridge and then push the cartridge up and down a certain number of times to get it to work! Only thing now is that the quality of information is so questionable, it's no longer matter of teaching kids how to do something but rather how to filter through the bullshit and find the good information.

Having a boy now who's 3, I'm looking back at my life and trying to figure out what was missed by my father in my upbringing and ensuring that I can pass that knowledge onto him but my wife made a great point and saying that of I did pass on everything would I want him to be like the guy I was before I got married or after? I have to be honest because even though I have SO MUCH to pass on, I have to be selective because I don't want him to be a douchebag! This is the maturity coming out from me that sadly wasn't taught by anyone but rather experienced. I just wish I had a stronger father figure that took a more active role in my life which brings us back once again to the original topic.

[scboss]

So what do you think defines a man today..?

If you are talking one to look up to?
Treats his inferiors the same as everyone else
Wants to create memories vs buy objects
Says something instead of saying something behind people back
Puts family first
Prioritizes physical and mental health
Listens to listen vs listening to talk


I was to be raised by my mom and I could never be more grateful, she worked her ass off and bought a house all on her own while working a blue collar job. Balancing bills and raising me must have been super tough but it taught me to appreciate everything and it also showed me that you dont need money to have a happy life. I remember we had alot of tough times but she never showed it.

On a side note first Dorian Yates workout I saw I was in the gym the next day lol