Additional Security for Push Button Start Vehicle?

[prae]

Long story short, my partner left the keyfob in one of our modern "keyless go" / pushbutton start vehicles and it (along with the keyfob) was stolen. The ever present door-checking thieves came upon it unlocked and must have been overjoyed when they found it with a full tank of gas, visa card and keys in it. Needless to say my insurer was deeply skeptical but fortunately the car was quickly recovered.

Here I am in present day, trying to think of ways to avoid this unpleasantness from happening again (beyond the obvious locking the goddamn car).

With modern keyfobs I guess I can see how it's easier to forget the keys in the vehicle. This got me thinking, when I was a kid I remember the popularity of "kill switches" hidden underneath the dash or otherwise to make it harder for thieves to steal. Obviously if I cannot rely on the operator of the vehicle to remember the keys, a "SPST" style cutoff switch to fuel/ignition/etc is not going to add value, but the idea of a momentary switch that needs to be depressed for the "start/stop" button to work seems like it could add an additional layer of physical security.

Are any beyonders knowledgeable or familiar with the wiring of pushbutton on/off switches in modern cars? are they truly a simple button or do they have some more complex CANbus or otherwise signalling? Thought I'd poll the masses before I go tearing apart the dash of my late model car.

[lasimmon]

I mean if you can't trust someone to lock the doors and take the keys out of the car they shouldn't be driving.

[colinxx235]

^
Lol truth.

I was thinking I find it harder. Because sometimes in the summer with gym shorts on the keys can slide out, when I go to tap the handle to lock if I don't hear a beep/locking doors then I know instantly it fell out of my pocket.

I guess one solution is by an old ass vehicle with key unlock/lock only :dunno:

[prae]

We all make mistakes. Rather than solving the human problem I figured I'd focus on what I can control, the electrical...

I found most of my answer in this pdf wiring diagram (http://www.revbase.com/BBBMotor/Wd/DownloadPdf?id=1008738). Four pins, 5A fused constant power, one for illum (I assume BCM would pull this to ground when a door switch or otherwise is triggered), and curiously two start stop switches. Looks like both are pulled high by the switch simultaneously (SW1 appears also tied into a remote start).

Thinking more about this, I'd want to make sure whatever "defeat" device gets wired in, only impacts one's ability to start the car, and a simple press of the "start/stop" button alone would still stop the ignition (for safety's sake). Originally my thought was to simply add a momentary switch that interrupted the 5A F78 fuse.

Anybody know why there's two "start/stop" inputs to the BCM?

[Disoblige]

83582

Guess you have to in order of hierarchy:

1) Eliminate partner
2) Replace partner with someone else
3) Remove partner from driving
4) Make partner change
5) PPE (ex: Bubble wrap car from damage in case it gets stolen again)

[Mitsu3000gt]

All locking a car does is deter crimes of opportunity - if someone wants to steal your car badly enough, they are going to regardless of any extra key-based security measures. More than likely your car wouldn't have been stolen if the keys weren't in it - most criminals are lazy and not at all intelligent. Also chances are your locked car is going to sustain significant damage while the thieves figure out it's too much effort to steal, so you aren't much further ahead in that scenario.

Alarms do nothing either - try to think of the last time you heard a horn hoking alarm go off in a parking lot or something - nobody even looks. 99% of the time it's the owner setting it off because they have no idea how their car works.

I don't know exactly how your key system works but I have proximity keys too and with mine it makes a loud beep and the doors lock as soon as I walk a certain distance away from it - if I don't hear that, the keys are obviously still in the car.

[prae]

Found an even better diagram (https://f01.justanswer.com/EricFromCT/61b0c5b9-1b55-4d28-a814-8f88871b8d6c_cdc35.pdf).

Looks like when depressed, start switch passes the fused 12V out to the "active high" input of the BCM for Start/Stop 1, and simultaneously pulls Start/Stop 2 (an "active low") input on the BCM to ground. I'm guessing the presence of "start/stop 2" is as a secondary / redundant system that would allow an "ignition stop" command to be received by the BCM, even in the event of a blown fuse or power failure.

Any remote start gurus able to validate my assumptions? Think I can test this tonight by pulling F78 with the vehicle running and attempting to stop it.

- - - Updated - - -




Guess you have to in order of hierarchy:

1) Eliminate partner
2) Replace partner with someone else
3) Remove partner from driving
4) Make partner change
5) PPE (ex: Bubble wrap car from damage in case it gets stolen again)

83583

- - - Updated - - -


All locking a car does is deter crimes of opportunity - if someone wants to steal your car badly enough, they are going go regardless of any extra key-based security measures. More than likely your car wouldn't have been stolen if the keys weren't in it - most criminals are lazy and not at all intelligent. Also chances are your locked car is going to sustain significant damage while the thieves figure out it's too much effort to steal, so you aren't much further ahead in that scenario.

Alarms do nothing either - try to think of the last time you heard a horn hoking alarm go off in a parking lot or something - nobody even looks. 99% of the time it's the owner setting it off because they have no idea how their car works.

I don't know exactly how your key system works but I have proximity keys too and with mine it makes a loud beep and the doors lock as soon as I walk a certain distance away from it - if I don't hear that, the keys are obviously still in the car.

This is exactly my point, I'm trying to prevent another crime of opportunity in the event that the keys get inadvertently left in the car again. Your advice is akin to suggesting the best solution to teenage pregnancy is abstinence. :rofl:

I know the best way to prevent the car from disappearing is not to leave the keys in it. I'm trying to give myself another layer of protection in the event that the keys are left in it again. aka condoms.

[Mitsu3000gt]

I wasn't giving any advice, I was just saying that locking the car isn't going to stop anyone who really wants to steal it - all it's going to do is create more damage when they break in. My GF's car used to get broken into about once a week, since CPS didn't care, we just left it unlocked with nothing in it. The thieves still went into it and we'd find the door open every once in a while but this way there was no damage done to it.

What happens when you leave the keys in the car and walk away? Is there any kind of audible warning (or lack of an otherwise normal audible warning)? That should be easy enough to teach someone if they don't realize they are being given that notification.

Or you could get a bluetooth tracker and put it on the keys - if you get one with a "digital leash" feature it will send you an alert if your keys leave a specified range. You and your wife will get a notification if either of you come into the house without the keys.

[prae]

I gotcha. Ford's intelligent access isn't that sophisticated, you can leave the keys in the car without any kind of a warning, and the vehicle doesn't auto lock if you leave with your keys in hand.

Agree with you on break-ins, have had our vehicles rummaged through on other occasions, as have neighbors. I'm fine with any of the contents of the vehicle disappearing, there's not usually anything of value.

What I'm trying to mitigate is the car disappearing again in the event keys are left in it, which, with keyless fobs, is much easier to do. I'm sure insurance companies are seeing higher rates of 'keys in car' theft situations like this.

Nine times out of ten this car lives in our garage so it's not an issue, but I had some woodworking projects on the go.

[Mitsu3000gt]

The bluetooth tracker I suggested sounds like a reasonable solution then - you will know where your keys are and be notified when they are out of range or have their last location marked on the map. It can also help find a stolen car if the keys are in it, or if you simply can't find your keys it can help with that too:

Something like this maybe:

https://www.amazon.ca/dp/B01L3VEC08?amp%3BlinkCode=xm2&amp%3BSubscriptionId=AKIAJLYKPRLXUSF4GDIQ&amp%3Bascsubtag=site%3Atgus%7Ctid%3A89641539209322349&amp%3Bcamp=2025&amp%3Bcreative=165953&linkCode=g12&creativeASIN=B01L3VEC08&tag=bom-tomsguideca-onelink-20

With the amount of people that leave their garages open, and their garage doors unlocked with their keys on a nice little key rack RIGHT inside, I would not be surprised if thieves make off with people's cars in this fashion all the time.

When you woodworking is done and you get the garage back, maybe you can put it on your wife instead :rofl:

[prae]

Thanks! I'm 90% certain that the shame of having her car stolen in this manner will prevent my wife from EVER making such a mindless mistake again, but anything I can do to avoid it won't hurt.

I can't believe that a theft with no mechanical and no body damage resulted in a claim in excess of $5,000. What an economic drain.

[JustinL]

When I got the Audi, I couldn't adapt to the push button start. My muscle memory is just too trained with the key, so I just started using the fob like I would a regular key. I always put the fob into the slot and use it to start and stop the car. The car is always locked by remote with the fob, so if I'm walking away from the car I have a habit of clicking the remote before I put it in my pocket. I need a ritual, or I would be just like your wife and forget the keys in the car pretty frequently. I guess my advice is to see if you can figure out a simple ritual that ensures the fob has to pass through the driver's hand as they are getting out of the car.

[ShermanEF9]

Girlfriends keys stay in her purse, my truck key stays in my pocket. it is never removed. my truck i was able to enable the "police idle secure" for when i leave it running. key comes with me, it cannot be moved from park. Girlfriends car is manual, so that prevents a lot.

its a harsh lesson, but it should be learned by now. all in all a pretty big mistake, keyless start or not.

[pheoxs]

As above my keys never leave my pocket. So unless they maybe slipped out I don’t see why they’d be left in there to begin with.

That being said I have forgot to lock my car a couple times after carrying in a ton of groceries or something where my hands are full and I’m just happy to not drop stuff and get the door closed. I do wish it auto locked when the fob leaves the vicinity

[max_boost]

I absolutely loved this feature. So handy.

What cars are you guys driving that has this?

Start the engine, exit car with remote in pocket, lock it via the fob.

Right now I am locking my Golf with a key haha that extra step annoys me.

[rage2]

I absolutely loved this feature. So handy.

What cars are you guys driving that has this?

Start the engine, exit car with remote in pocket, lock it via the fob.

Right now I am locking my Golf with a key haha that extra step annoys me.
Lock via fob? You mean lock by touching the door handle? That key is never touched. Just stays in pocket. You can even set it to auto lock when it doesn’t detect the key nearby.

I thought every car has this as an option these days.

Edit - even the civic has this.

http://owners.honda.com/vehicles/information/2018/Civic-Sedan/features/Smart-Entry

[98brg2d]

As to the start/stop 1 and 2, at least some immobilizers have a hidden on/off switch for the immobilizer function itself, i.e. switch one allows you to start the car, switch two allows you to start the car without pressing switch one, indefinitely. It is handy if you are giving the car to somebody to drive, like a mechanic or friend, and they cannot remember the start sequence (or are given the car by a service adviser who didn't right down the start sequence). I've had that call from the dealership many times asking how to start my car and if it isn't going to spend the night sitting outside it is easier to turn off the immobilizer.

[colinxx235]

Lock via fob? You mean lock by touching the door handle? That key is never touched. Just stays in pocket. You can even set it to auto lock when it doesn’t detect the key nearby.

I thought every car has this as an option these days.

Edit - even the civic has this.

http://owners.honda.com/vehicles/information/2018/Civic-Sedan/features/Smart-Entry

Yah I was under the impression the Golf locks when the key leaves a certain radius (when not running). Cause I'm fairly certain it has done it when I was unloading a few things from the car and had the doors closed, came back and it was locked and had to go inside and grab my coat to get the fob in range.

100% the S4 did this.

[Mitsu3000gt]

Lock via fob? You mean lock by touching the door handle? That key is never touched. Just stays in pocket. You can even set it to auto lock when it doesn’t detect the key nearby.

I thought every car has this as an option these days.

Edit - even the civic has this.

http://owners.honda.com/vehicles/information/2018/Civic-Sedan/features/Smart-Entry

Honestly one of my favorite features. It's not on by default though for some reason - I had to enable it. I have only used the lock/unlocok buttons on the fob once or twice when I first got the car and my car keys just live in my coat pocket. Walk up, touch the door handle (not a button - you just grasp it and its unlocked by the time you pull), it unlocks. Walk away, car locks when I am about 10ft away.

But yeah - I think it's more rare for a car to NOT have it these days.

[max_boost]

Lock via fob? You mean lock by touching the door handle? That key is never touched. Just stays in pocket. You can even set it to auto lock when it doesn’t detect the key nearby.

I thought every car has this as an option these days.

Edit - even the civic has this.

http://owners.honda.com/vehicles/information/2018/Civic-Sedan/features/Smart-Entry

I'm talking about locking the car with it running and you are not inside the vehicle. It's much easier doing deliveries and leaving the car running for a few mins during drop off vs shutting the vehicle off.

[pheoxs]

I'm talking about locking the car with it running and you are not inside the vehicle. It's much easier doing deliveries and leaving the car running for a few mins during drop off vs shutting the vehicle off.

My fiesta lets me lock it while running but I need to hit lock on the fob, not just the button on the handle

[max_boost]

My fiesta lets me lock it while running but I need to hit lock on the fob, not just the button on the handle

Perfect. That’s what I mean.

Do you know if that’s available on the lower end models?

I drive entry level cars only now

[ShermanEF9]

it'll have to be high enough trim to get push button.