Ghost kitchens - do you care?

[ExtraSlow]

Sparked by articles in the globe and mail and cbc, I've been thinking about "ghost kitchens" where the food you order from a deliver app like uber eats or skip the dishes might come from a kitchen that prepares multiple cuisines and has no dining room.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/business/article-ghost-kitchens-begin-to-pop-up-in-canada-as-food-delivery-grows-in/
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/ghost-kitchen-calgary-1.4989791

It kind of rubs me the wrong way. I like to feel a sense of connection to the places that serve my food, and I like to eat there at least once before I try getting delivery or pickup.

Maybe I'm just old-school. What do you folks say?

[LilDrunkenSmurf]

If it makes the food cheaper, due to lower costs, I'm all for it. My only concern is that sometimes I don't want to get it delivered, because a $4 delivery charge and then tip on top is BS for a 1.3km drive, so I just grab it myself. So as long as I can still pick it up myself, I'm fine.

[Mitsu3000gt]

I definitely care what kitchen is making my food - the more anonymity they get the sketchier it will be come and the harder it will be to accurately interpret reviews. Seems like a ploy to hide from bad reviews and get away with lowering quality by adding a layer of separation to the accountability side of things.

[Swank]

Doesn't seem any different than what most pizza places have been doing forever, just more variety of food :dunno:

[ExtraSlow]

I definitely care what kitchen is making my food - the more anonymity they get the sketchier it will be come and the harder it will be to accurately interpret reviews. Seems like a ploy to hide from bad reviews and get away with lowering quality by adding a layer of separation to the accountability side of things. I hadn't considered the review thing. If one of the dozen restaurants gets bad reviews, just "close" that menu and start a new one.

[Buster]

sounds like a great idea

[JordanEG6]

Doesn't seem any different than what most pizza places have been doing forever, just more variety of food :dunno:

I thought about this as well. Pizza Hut and Little Caesar's have been doing this for years. I don't see how this is a bad idea as long as they prepare the food with the same standards and practices as a functional dine-in restaurant.

[Mitsu3000gt]

I hadn't considered the review thing. If one of the dozen restaurants gets bad reviews, just "close" that menu and start a new one.

Yeah exactly. And the bad kitchens might negatively affect the reviews of the good kitchens. Just seems like terrible idea in my opinion. Pump out garbage food until you get shut down, then just start up again.

[Disoblige]

It's a little bit misrepresentation to be honest. Let's face it, would you eat at a place that service Chinese, Indian, Mexican, and Western food? Probably not, just with the simple idea that most "chefs" don't cook multiple cuisines well.

[Swank]

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/seinfeld/images/9/94/DreamCafe.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20120312180840

[Xtrema]

It kind of rubs me the wrong way. I like to feel a sense of connection to the places that serve my food, and I like to eat there at least once before I try getting delivery or pickup.

Am I reading this wrong or do these restaurant only exists on these apps only?

If you want UberEats to fetch food from Maxboost to support him, you still can. They are basically take out restaurants that exist online only.

Now I think about it more, it's basically this:
https://www.zomato.com/calgary/tropical-delight-noodles-house-1-northwest/menu

Laska - take out only, so I kinda been eating from a ghost kitchen....

[Mista Bob]

This is the perfect business model for every owner out there who aspires to lower their standards even further. Now they don't have to worry about pesky things like reputation getting in the way. Just slap a new name on the app and you are good to go all over again.

[lilmira]

I don't like it not because they don't do dine in. It just sounds like food factory where the food is either super bland or subpar. Take out only food place like mom and pop setup is fine otherwise.

[Buster]

I think you will find that these owners have an incentive to build up a history of positive reputation in the marketplace.

[speedog]

I don't like it not because they don't do dine in. It just sounds like food factory where the food is either super bland or subpar. Take out only food place like mom and pop setup is fine otherwise.

The pizza place we regularly order from has no sit down area - it is strictly take out. Does that mean you and extraslow would never try them out, Bow Tie Pizza by the way?

[ExtraSlow]

The pizza place we regularly order from has no sit down area - it is strictly take out. Does that mean you and extraslow would never try them out, Bow Tie Pizza by the way?

I've ordered from bow tie. If they also served cabbage rolls, won tons, pho and hipster salads I would be worried.

[lilmira]

Whaaa?:confused::nut:

[ExtraSlow]

What? I walked in, looked around, chatted with the worker (owner maybe?) when I was choosing what pizza I wanted, and then went back when it was ready and chatted with the guy again. The next time, I did phone my order in to them.

That's a lot different than some anonymous unbranded place you can only order from with an app. Or it is to me anyway. Maybe that makes me :nut::nut:

[lilmira]

sorry, that was meant for speedog's response to mine


I don't like it not because they don't do dine in. It just sounds like food factory where the food is either super bland or subpar. Take out only food place like mom and pop setup is fine otherwise.


The pizza place we regularly order from has no sit down area - it is strictly take out. Does that mean you and extraslow would never try them out, Bow Tie Pizza by the way?

[speedog]

sorry, that was meant for speedog's response to mine

Yupp, apparently my comprehension skills were absent. And I wasn't even messed up on anything, just old I guess.

[KrisYYC]

I have a feeling this will become more and more common as delivery app usage increases. And I don't care if one kitchen is cooking several types of cuisine. It's take-out. It's not like you're getting authentic chefs right now anyway. Your take-out pizzas aren't being hand made by Giuseppe from Naples lol.

The online/app reviews will make or break them.

[you&me]

I read the thread before I checked the links (and hadn't heard of a ghost kitchen until now)... At first I wasn't sure. I thought maybe there was a possibility of some sort of two-tier dining operation, where you'd order from, say, Maxboost and two scenarios were possible - if you picked up, you'd get the authentic thing, but if you ordered through an app, there was a possibility that a 'knock off' would be produced at some other (ghost) location to minimize delivery times.

That doesn't seem to be the case, yet. As it is, I'd say it's a great idea and have no problem with it.

[A790]

I think you will find that these owners have an incentive to build up a history of positive reputation in the marketplace.

This is my thought exactly.

I'm always amazed at how people immediately assume the worst possible scenario for things like this.

Having in-depth personal experience in restaurant ownership, I DREAM about the type of business you could build with no dining room, low overhead, and a hot-to-trot consumer environment.

This would be a killer opportunity for an entrepreneur with experience in the industry or an owner/operator chef that wants to make good food and not have to deal with entitled customers, kids trashing their place, cleaning up a dining room, thieving servers, etc.

I LOVE this idea.

[you&me]

This is my thought exactly.

I'm always amazed at how people immediately assume the worst possible scenario for things like this.

Having in-depth personal experience in restaurant ownership, I DREAM about the type of business you could build with no dining room, low overhead, and a hot-to-trot consumer environment.

This would be a killer opportunity for an entrepreneur with experience in the industry or an owner/operator chef that wants to make good food and not have to deal with entitled customers, kids trashing their place, cleaning up a dining room, thieving servers, etc.

I LOVE this idea.

So when do you 'open'?

[Xtrema]

I read the thread before I checked the links (and hadn't heard of a ghost kitchen until now)... At first I wasn't sure. I thought maybe there was a possibility of some sort of two-tier dining operation, where you'd order from, say, Maxboost and two scenarios were possible - if you picked up, you'd get the authentic thing, but if you ordered through an app, there was a possibility that a 'knock off' would be produced at some other (ghost) location to minimize delivery times.

That doesn't seem to be the case, yet. As it is, I'd say it's a great idea and have no problem with it.

That's my 1st take on it then I realize nobody is knocking off anyone. It's just a kitchen that is potentially under multiple names under the app serving multiple types of food.

One of the problems is that like everyone said, they could close and restart under different name relatively easy so for the customer, just because trying a different restaurant because you hate the other one may get you the same crap food from the same crap chef.

But I would assume the review system under the app should be able sort them out. Like avoid restaurants that is under 500 reviews and 4 stars and under.

The other problem I can see is that it would put pressure on other traditional sit in restaurants' take out biz because they are undercut by this lower cost set up. As they already got a deep cut by these delivery apps charging them 25% of bill to have it delivered.

[ExtraSlow]

Awesome to hear people who are more knowledgeable than me chime in. I'm pretty old school, and don't even use these appz.

I do agree with Cam that the best run places will have good quality, and those will be the ones that thrive. Could be some growing pains, but I suppose that's no different than other restaurant business models.

[you&me]

Maybe I missed it, or misunderstand, but I didn't see anything that says there's some mini food factory pumping out multiple types of cuisine? At least, not yet...

My impression was that it's still one "restaurant" making food for one menu, but they don't have a traditional dine-in area, or even a takeout counter which allows them to operate in unconventional locations and saves them a ton of overhead... It's incredibly smart and I'd be perfectly fine with it (or maybe I have and don't even realize it!?).

I'm curious - several posters mentioned something about local pizza places operating this way... Which ones? When? Where?

[ExtraSlow]

Right from the cbc article

But between 6 p.m. and 3 a.m., the restaurateur behind the business says it will be abuzz with delivery drivers ducking in and out, bringing orders from 13 different restaurant concepts to people across the city with late-night cravings.

The restaurant (or restaurants) opened Wednesday as Alberta's first "ghost kitchen" — multiple restaurants operating out of a single kitchen space, leaving the customer service and delivery up to third-party delivery companies.

[Tik-Tok]

I could see this system being abused, and quickly. Like someone using the ghost kitchen in name only, but doing all the cooking from their garage kitchen in their house and being able to avoid any health inspections.

[Buster]

I could see this system being abused, and quickly. Like someone using the ghost kitchen in name only, but doing all the cooking from their garage kitchen in their house and being able to avoid any health inspections.

If they want to break the law I guess

[msommers]

I like going to a restaurant, especially an ethnic one, where I'm really trying to find something traditional such that, it would be 'like Mom made it.' Except with a ghost kitchen, Mom might actually be making it! Perfecto.

My biggest hesitation is food safety. I mean I'm sure there are a couple restaurants I go to that wouldn't even pass a health inspection if they did it this instance, but at least someone is checking in on it.

Maybe it's my mindset about it, hard to say.

[mr2mike]

It'll be good until someone dies from allergic reaction.

[ExtraSlow]

I don't think the food safety issue is a problem. Or at least not a bigger problem than most restaurants. These places will be inspected like any other restaurant by Alberta health.

- - - Updated - - -


It'll be good until someone dies from allergic reaction.
Are people with life threatening allergies ordering takeout at 3AM? Fuck, that seems risky no matter where you order from.

[you&me]

Right from the cbc article

Ooops... I tend to avoid cbc articles like you do ghost kitchens...

[ExtraSlow]

Ooops... I tend to avoid cbc articles like you do ghost kitchens...

Fair enough, they aren't exactly know for great reporting.

- - - Updated - - -

And I don't exactly "avoid" ghost kitchens, but I've never run across one, probably because I don't use food delivery apps.

[you&me]

Understood... Sorry for missing that.

In my case, I have no problem with a single kitchen / single cuisine, but I need to consider it further before I can say for sure how I feel about the multi-disciplinary the ghost kitchens.

I guess in the end, it would come down to quality. If there's a ghost kitchen that can whip up excellent Thai, pizza and fried chicken, I don't see why I should be bothered by that (particularly if they pass on some of their cost savings in the form of lower prices. I know - yeah right). If they end up being a Jack of all trades, master of none, then... well, they're not any different than any other takeout place I order from - you read the reviews, take a shot and if it sucks, choose somewhere else next time.

[speedog]

Understood... Sorry for missing that.

In my case, I have no problem with a single kitchen / single cuisine, but I need to consider it further before I can say for sure how I feel about the multi-disciplinary the ghost kitchens.

I guess in the end, it would come down to quality. If there's a ghost kitchen that can whip up excellent Thai, pizza and fried chicken, I don't see why I should be bothered by that (particularly if they pass on some of their cost savings in the form of lower prices. I know - yeah right). If they end up being a Jack of all trades, master of none, then... well, they're not any different than any other takeout place I order from - you read the reviews, take a shot and if it sucks, choose somewhere else next time.

There are plenty of generic sit down restaurants that multi-cuisines right now that are always busy and that people aren't dying because of. Earls would be just one that I could think of. 4th Spot is another.

[A790]

It'll be good until someone dies from allergic reaction.

I'm unsure of what the point of this post is. This danger already exists regardless of the model of the restaurant- it is ever present in any type of food service industry, whether a sit-down restaurant or a food truck.


So when do you 'open'?

If I had any interest in opening a brick and mortar food service business, this model would be on my list.


One of the problems is that like everyone said, they could close and restart under different name relatively easy so for the customer, just because trying a different restaurant because you hate the other one may get you the same crap food from the same crap chef.

But I would assume the review system under the app should be able sort them out. Like avoid restaurants that is under 500 reviews and 4 stars and under.

The other problem I can see is that it would put pressure on other traditional sit in restaurants' take out biz because they are undercut by this lower cost set up. As they already got a deep cut by these delivery apps charging them 25% of bill to have it delivered.

Something that I think we should discuss is whether or not a ghost kitchen is required to have a commercial premsis. This one is interesting, because if so, closing up shop and starting over isn't as easy as assumed.

Hell, even if not, reputation is everything - especially in out app-centred, review-obsessed digital society - and simply starting over isn't an easy option.

Finally, what's the problem with ghost kitchens putting pressure on sit-in restaurants? Moreover, if they're getting deep cut by delivery apps charging 25%, they should either look into other options or create their own. Adapt or die.

A sit-in restaurant is as much about the experience as it is the food. If a restaurant doesn't do a good job cultivating that, then they need to either up their game or learn how to kick ass in the era of delivery.


I could see this system being abused, and quickly. Like someone using the ghost kitchen in name only, but doing all the cooking from their garage kitchen in their house and being able to avoid any health inspections.


I like going to a restaurant, especially an ethnic one, where I'm really trying to find something traditional such that, it would be 'like Mom made it.' Except with a ghost kitchen, Mom might actually be making it! Perfecto.

My biggest hesitation is food safety. I mean I'm sure there are a couple restaurants I go to that wouldn't even pass a health inspection if they did it this instance, but at least someone is checking in on it.

Maybe it's my mindset about it, hard to say.

Why would they be permitted to avoid the regulations forced on every other food service business?

I'm not sure what people think would happen- that someone would start a business from their kitchen and an app like SkipTheDishes would let that happen? Or the city, for that matter?


Understood... Sorry for missing that.

In my case, I have no problem with a single kitchen / single cuisine, but I need to consider it further before I can say for sure how I feel about the multi-disciplinary the ghost kitchens.

I guess in the end, it would come down to quality. If there's a ghost kitchen that can whip up excellent Thai, pizza and fried chicken, I don't see why I should be bothered by that (particularly if they pass on some of their cost savings in the form of lower prices. I know - yeah right). If they end up being a Jack of all trades, master of none, then... well, they're not any different than any other takeout place I order from - you read the reviews, take a shot and if it sucks, choose somewhere else next time.


There are plenty of generic sit down restaurants that multi-cuisines right now that are always busy and that people aren't dying because of. Earls would be just one that I could think of. 4th Spot is another.

Exactly this. I can think of a number of ways that a business could operate a multi-cuisine delivery business and be successful. The two most obvious (off the top of my head) would be...

1) Have more than one chef, each with a different specialty.

2) Rent out a station in your kitchen to chefs that want to operate in the space but lack the capital to acquire their own premesis/kitchen/etc.

--

Anyway, assuming the city doesn't forget to treat these businesses as food service businesses and thus regulate them accordingly, this type of model will very likely mature into offering more convenience and cuisines for delivery. That sounds totally awesome and also totally inevitable- it's so obvious that I can't believe it took this long to become a thing.

[mr2mike]

I'm unsure of what the point of this post is. This danger already exists regardless of the model of the restaurant- it is ever present in any type of food service industry, whether a sit-down restaurant or a food truck..
Because if you have allergies where you can die, you're going to read the entire menu and if they serve shellfish anywhere on it, you'll pick another place or not eat.

If you read the menu at the said ghost kitchen and see only pizza so you order it, ot knowing that the kitchen is also making sushi out of the same kitchen, it really puts the ownership that if there is a reaction completely on the ghost kitchen because nothing disclosed what they made in their kitchen.
It's an easy win lawsuit waiting to happen.

[A790]

Because if you have allergies where you can die, you're going to read the entire menu and if they serve shellfish anywhere on it, you'll pick another place or not eat.

If you read the menu at the said ghost kitchen and see only pizza so you order it, ot knowing that the kitchen is also making sushi out of the same kitchen, it really puts the ownership that if there is a reaction completely on the ghost kitchen because nothing disclosed what they made in their kitchen.
It's an easy win lawsuit waiting to happen.

Your logic is making way too many assumptions. Why wouldn't the kitchen disclose what they're making? Why are they at risk of some legal jeopardy that every other restaurant isn't also at risk for (based on your reasoning)?

Moreover, if the other foods the kitchen is making is also on their menu, how would the onus at all be on the kitchen vs. the consumer?

Nevermind the fact that the restaurant - like any other restaurant does - would likely have an allergy disclaimer on their menu, website, or both.

Finally, I still fail to see how this problem is unique to the ghost kitchen model or somehow not already a risk for consumers now. Multi-discipline restaurants already exist.

[Xtrema]

Something that I think we should discuss is whether or not a ghost kitchen is required to have a commercial premsis. This one is interesting, because if so, closing up shop and starting over isn't as easy as assumed.

Hell, even if not, reputation is everything - especially in out app-centred, review-obsessed digital society - and simply starting over isn't an easy option.

Finally, what's the problem with ghost kitchens putting pressure on sit-in restaurants? Moreover, if they're getting deep cut by delivery apps charging 25%, they should either look into other options or create their own. Adapt or die.

A sit-in restaurant is as much about the experience as it is the food. If a restaurant doesn't do a good job cultivating that, then they need to either up their game or learn how to kick ass in the era of delivery.



I think they have adapted in the sense that some have different prices on delivery apps vs eat in.

I don't use delivery services so I don't know how they are displayed. Would people know Pepe and Churo Burger are the same restaurant? If not, that means he can build up as many restaurants in app as he wants and close ones that got bad review and stay in business. Kind of like Ebay and Amazon sellers.

But yeah, building up one with history of good review would still be hard. Much like driving for Uber trying to keep as close to 5 star as possible.

[mr2mike]

Your logic is making way too many assumptions. Why wouldn't the kitchen disclose what they're making? Why are they at risk of some legal jeopardy that every other restaurant isn't also at risk for (based on your reasoning)?

Moreover, if the other foods the kitchen is making is also on their menu, how would the onus at all be on the kitchen vs. the consumer?

Nevermind the fact that the restaurant - like any other restaurant does - would likely have an allergy disclaimer on their menu, website, or both.

Finally, I still fail to see how this problem is unique to the ghost kitchen model or somehow not already a risk for consumers now. Multi-discipline restaurants already exist.
You clearly don't and nor does anyone close to you have this problem. That's great and you can eat anywhere and not worry.
If you've seen someone accidentally eat an allergen despite ordering food that doesn't contain it. Was assured by the staff after inquiring that you're fine and your night out turns into a life or death situation within seconds. You'll see that despite every attempt to rule out ingredients, it can happen and so most people I know with this issue choose to cook their own meals and don't eat out.
So you can retort with your high brow relic all day, these places are modeled to cut costs, cut corners amd cross contamination isn't a priority.

[suntan]

You clearly don't and nor does anyone close to you have this problem. That's great and you can eat anywhere and not worry.
If you've seen someone accidentally eat an allergen despite ordering food that doesn't contain it. Was assured by the staff after inquiring that you're fine and your night out turns into a life or death situation within seconds. You'll see that despite every attempt to rule out ingredients, it can happen and so most people I know with this issue choose to cook their own meals and don't eat out.
So you can retort with your high brow relic all day, these places are modeled to cut costs, cut corners amd cross contamination isn't a priority.

I'm quite allergic to shrimp, I once ordered a chicken pizza at Murrieta's, they put on shrimp instead.

They should've stuck to being a chicken restaurant.

[ercchry]

This model has potential for sure, I like the shared space idea for startups. Build revenue and a brand and move to a dine in model once a following is established. Working on the PR/marketing so people aren’t searching for your brick and mortar would probably be necessary for a smooth transition though. Own it as a cool hip co-op type thing. No difference vs the food truck route to building your food empire, except more Calgary climate friendly. Hell, those guys use shared kitchens anyways as any prep done off the truck needs to be in a commercial kitchen.

Just look at the trajectory taiko taco... started by doing pop ups out of fiasco’s truck, bought their own. Now are building out a brick and mortar in the barley belt

[Buster]

You clearly don't and nor does anyone close to you have this problem. That's great and you can eat anywhere and not worry.
If you've seen someone accidentally eat an allergen despite ordering food that doesn't contain it. Was assured by the staff after inquiring that you're fine and your night out turns into a life or death situation within seconds. You'll see that despite every attempt to rule out ingredients, it can happen and so most people I know with this issue choose to cook their own meals and don't eat out.
So you can retort with your high brow relic all day, these places are modeled to cut costs, cut corners amd cross contamination isn't a priority.

People think "having an allergy" can turn into life and death situations....when it's not really the case. It's one of the weird things that people don't talk about. People with allergies often think that the severity of their reaction is far greater than it is. In other words they confuse discomfort with true distress....or more probably think that their discomfort will escalate into distress. People dying of an allergy is super (super) rare. Like 100 people in the entire US in a year rare. That's crazy low rate.

[A790]

You clearly don't and nor does anyone close to you have this problem. That's great and you can eat anywhere and not worry.
If you've seen someone accidentally eat an allergen despite ordering food that doesn't contain it. Was assured by the staff after inquiring that you're fine and your night out turns into a life or death situation within seconds. You'll see that despite every attempt to rule out ingredients, it can happen and so most people I know with this issue choose to cook their own meals and don't eat out.
So you can retort with your high brow relic all day, these places are modeled to cut costs, cut corners amd cross contamination isn't a priority.

What high brow relic? Are you referring to me rebuffing what is a rather thin argument on your end?

You're trying to poke holes in the concept based on a non-objection that already exists for every restaurant/delivery establishment you have access to.

If you're wary of the concept because you're afraid of change, or just because you are for whatever reason, just be straight with it instead of trying to peddle a total non-issue as if its unique or even solely applicable to ghost kitchens.

[msommers]

Interesting read on the topic:

https://www.tigerchef.com/blog/ghost-restaurants-the-latest-trend/2295

This one is from Feb 2016...
https://www.crainsnewyork.com/article/20160221/HOSPITALITY_TOURISM/160219856/these-ghost-restaurants-could-spell-the-death-of-traditional-restaurant-delivery

[max_boost]

Give it time. The market will decide if it works or not.

Nice to see innovation tho, always a big supporter of that.

[msommers]

max_boost what percentages of your business would you estimate to be delivery, take-out and dine-in?

[spike98]

I think they have adapted in the sense that some have different prices on delivery apps vs eat in.

I don't use delivery services so I don't know how they are displayed. Would people know Pepe and Churo Burger are the same restaurant? If not, that means he can build up as many restaurants in app as he wants and close ones that got bad review and stay in business. Kind of like Ebay and Amazon sellers.

But yeah, building up one with history of good review would still be hard. Much like driving for Uber trying to keep as close to 5 star as possible.

Yes, because bad reviews are deserved of poor quality/service. Who cares if the "bad restraunts" close because the good ones are providing service/quality that warrants the good reviews. Thats how the review system works.

Just like a uber driver gets punted if he drops bellow a threshold. Sure he could get a fake IDand maybe open a new account under a new name. But who cares if the new driver profile is satisfying customers.

[HiTempguy1]

I don't buy the idea that online reviews somehow solves anything.

Why? Because of all the sketchy as hell used car dealerships that still operate even after having news articles made about them and posted all over the internet.

So yea. I disagree, and am of the opinion that this could lead to a drop in quality of lower end food joints.

Complaints online versus in person don't work the same. It allows an easy way to depersonalize the situation and go "meh, who gives a shit about order #5327" and you get a discount for next time and nothing changes.

End of the day, doesn't really matter though. If I eat somewhere I don't like, why would I give them my patronage again?

[gqmw]

I think it's an interesting concept that would allow people to open restaurants at lower cost and could be a good starting point for young chefs/businesses.

I probably order ubereats/other delivery apps about 4 times a week (to the office for dinner) from restaurants that I've never actually been to in person. Really doesn't matter to me who's making the food as long as it's good.

At the end of the day a restaurant needs repeat business and a restaurateur only benefits from a successful business so I really don't think not having a store front will lead to worse food quality. I certainly hope restaurant owners think longer term than suckering people to order from there once and have to open a new restaurant under another name every few months.