RCMP take over investigation of UCP 'irregular financial contributions' allegations

[pheoxs]

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/alberta-rcmp-investigation-ucp-financial-contributions-1.5057255

Lengthy article, best to actually have a read through it


It's alleged Callaway was a "kamikaze" candidate who entered the race to attack former Wildrose leader Brian Jean on Jason Kenney's behalf, a story that broke when audio was released of a conversation outlining the plan.


The complaint identified 18 donors to the Callaway campaign who were alleged to have made donations using money that was provided to them, which is an offence under the provincial Election Finances and Contributions Disclosure Act.

This bit was also interesting:


Two days before the leadership vote deadline in October 2017, both Jean and fellow leadership candidate Doug Schweitzer asked the UCP executive to suspend the vote over concerns about voter fraud.

In February, Gill sent a letter to the RCMP alleging that Kenney's campaign improperly manipulated the electronic voting process during the vote.

The campaign set up kiosks where votes for Kenney were cast using PINs sent to fake email addresses, Gill said.

[kertejud2]

Just tactical politics, nothing to see here.

[lasimmon]

Heh, all the UCP had to do was nothing and probably win the biggest landslide of all time.

But they going to fuck it up.

[Xtrema]

Heh, all the UCP had to do was nothing and probably win the biggest landslide of all time.

But they going to fuck it up.

They didn't fuck it up. Brian has probably been planning this for a while to get back at Kenney.

[lasimmon]

They didn't fuck it up. Brian has probably been planning this for a while to get back at Kenney.

I don't know. I think a couple shady things will come out that Kenny did to ensure he won. Maybe not illegal per se, but shady.

Might make the election closer than it should be.

[Xtrema]

I don't know. I think a couple shady things will come out that Kenny did to ensure he won. Maybe not illegal per se, but shady.

Might make the election closer than it should be.

Unless RCMP shows up and put Kenney in cuffs, and Kenney too smart for that, it's still gonna be a UCP win.

I don't see UCP supporters staying away from the poll unless Kenney comes out as gay or proven touched little kids.

[M.alex]

I think this is most UCP supporters reaction - who cares, it's politics, suck it up buttercup.

[HiTempguy1]

That is anyone's reaction. Unless there was something criminal done, nobody gives a crap about internal party politics (rightfully or not).

I don't think it changes the equation for anyone.

[Xtrema]

That is anyone's reaction. Unless there was something criminal done, nobody gives a crap about internal party politics (rightfully or not).

I don't think it changes the equation for anyone.

I won't say nobody, there is a sizable Jean supporters within merged UCP. Especially how Kenney has been removing old grassroot WR candidates from running for UCP.

Saving grace is this comes in too late for those grassroots start another party to go against UCP.

[dirtsniffer]

I am pissed about all this for sure. I wanted Jean to win.

Buuut nothing short of some Church level perversion will make me vote for anyone else

[schurchill39]

I am pissed about all this for sure. I wanted Jean to win.

Buuut nothing short of some Church level perversion will make me vote for anyone else

:werd:

[sabad66]

Looks like the Kenney campaigned used a pretty dirty move to win the UCP leadership. No wonder Jean is coming out and criticizing Kenney these days. I’d be pretty bitter too if I found out two campaigns colluded against me.



The campaign of former United Conservative Party leadership candidate Jeff Callaway may have violated Alberta election law by not disclosing professional services it received from Jason Kenney's campaign, a political scientist says.

On Saturday, CBC News reported on a leaked cache of documents showing Kenney's campaign provided Callaway's with resources during the 2017 UCP leadership race, including strategic political direction, media and debate talking points, speeches, videos and attack advertisements.

All were aimed at undermining Kenney's main political rival for the leadership, former Wildrose leader Brian Jean.


Kenney, Callaway campaigns collaborated to attack Brian Jean during UCP leadership race, leaked documents show
"The Act is pretty clear that campaigns are allowed to share resources with one another, but they have to disclose it when they do," University of Alberta political scientist Jared Wesley said.

Wesley specifically pointed to a section of Alberta's Election Finances and Contributions Disclosure Act. It states that parties, constituency associations, candidates, and contestants can transfer goods and services to each other; the goods and services won't be considered contributions but the recipient must record the "source and amount."

He noted Callaway's final campaign return, which is publicly available online, does not disclose any services the campaign received from Kenney's campaign.

"If there were professional services that were transferred from one campaign to another, they need to be disclosed," Wesley said. "And if they weren't [disclosed], they are in contravention of the law."


University of Alberta political scientist Jared Wesley says under Alberta election law, a campaign that receives a professional service from another must disclose it. (Scott Neufeld/CBC)
Wesley said while the speeches and talking points Kenney's campaign provided might not constitute a "professional service" under the law, the videos, political ads and graphics definitely would. It's not clear however if the Callaway campaign used that content.

Callaway has not responded to interview requests over the past several days.

UCP executive director Janice Harrington responded with an emailed statement Sunday.

"Sharing communications, political strategies, or information between leadership campaigns is not an in-kind contribution and is not against the rules," the statement said.

But it did not address the fact, as shown by documents leaked to CBC News, that Kenney's campaign also provided the Callaway campaign with professional videos, attack advertisements and graphics, which Wesley said would constitute a professional service that would have to be disclosed by Callaway.

Political ads provided to Callaway campaign

The leaked documents show Matt Wolf, a senior Kenney campaign staffer and his current deputy chief of staff, communicated regularly with Callaway's communications manager Cameron Davies, and also on occasion with Callaway's campaign manager, Randy Kerr.

One of the documents, a "timeline of events" prepared by Davies for Alberta's election commissioner, alleges the Kenney campaign made a concerted effort to recruit a "stalking horse" candidate for the specific purpose of attacking Jean.

"The Callaway campaign received assistance with videos, graphics, speeches, emails, and other communications advice including communications to the Leadership Election Committee," Davies' timeline states, a fact confirmed by other other documents leaked to CBC News.

Kerr has not responded to interview requests.

In a Saturday interview with CBC News, Davies confirmed the authenticity of the leaked documents and he said the extensive support and direction provided to the Callaway campaign by the Kenney campaign was specifically to undermine Brian Jean.

Davies also confirmed Callaway was recruited for the express purpose of attacking Jean and that it was known from the outset by both campaigns that Callaway would withdraw from the race and endorse Kenney, which is what eventually happened.

In a statement issued late Saturday, UCP executive director Janice Harrington said the communication between the two campaigns was "perfectly normal in a preferential ballot election and was within the rules of the 2017 UCP Leadership Election."


An attack ad graphic provided by Matt Wolf to the Jeff Callaway campaign on Aug. 24, 2017. It is not known if the graphic was used. (Supplied)
The UCP continues to insist the Kenney campaign did not collaborate with the Callaway campaign in a so-called kamikaze campaign. Callaway has also denied those allegations.

But neither of Harrington's statements issued on Saturday and Sunday addressed the contents of an internal email, dated Aug. 13, 2017. In it Davies provides a timeline to Wolf that includes a rough date for when Callaway would drop out of the leadership race.

"The themes I'm pushing for are: Seeds of Doubt (Aug. 14-26); Consistency (Aug. 23 - Sept. 6); Trust (Sept. 1 - Sept. 13)," Davies continued.

"Jeff drops (although depending when debates are, you may have other ideas?)," Davies's email to Wolf continues.

In his interview with CBC News, Davies said Callaway's withdrawal from the leadership race "was something that wasn't necessarily negotiable.

"It was something that had been decided in a meeting in mid-July between Callaway and the Jason Kenney leadership team."

RCMP investigating donations

Alberta's election commissioner began investigating Callaway's campaign late last year after a complainant alleged that 18 donors contributed to Callaway's campaign using money that was provided to them, which is illegal. In February, the commissioner fined Karen Brown $3,500 for donating to the Callaway campaign "with funds given or furnished by another person."

The election commissioner also fined Davies $15,000 for obstructing his investigation into the Callaway donations. Through his lawyer, Davies has said he will appeal the fines. He told CBC News he is cooperating with the commissioner's investigation.

On Friday, CBC News revealed the election commissioner has handed the investigation over to the RCMP's serious crimes branch.

RCMP take over investigation of United Conservative Party 'irregular financial contribution' allegations
At an unrelated news conference that same day, Kenney said the RCMP investigation is "about someone else's leadership campaign from 18 months ago," adding later that "all I can tell you is that the campaign that I ran was in full compliance with all of the financial and legal requirements."

Wesley, the political scientist, said Callaway's campaign clearly had an obligation to disclose the professional services Kenney's campaign provided.

"If you share professional services with another campaign, the campaign that receives it has to disclose it," Wesley said. "And there is no record, at least publicly, that that disclosure has been made by the Callaway campaign."


https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/alberta-ucp-election-law-callaway-jason-kenney-1.5060377

- - - Updated - - -

Also seeing this shared around which makes it more clear what they did.


To Albertans:

March 17, 2019

I follow with great deal of interest how the “Kamikaze Campaign” unravels over the last 48 hours in the media, and how Jason Kenney and Matt Wolf respond to it, denying any knowledge or participation in organizing it.

It’s time to set the record straight.

Even though Jason Kenney and Matt Wolf deny any knowledge or participation in organizing the “Kamikaze Campaign”, the facts are different.

On July 19, 2017 a strategy meeting was held at Jeff Callaway’s house, which consisted of an evening of discussion and a dinner. I catered the food for that dinner.

Jason Kenny, John Wiesnberg, Jeff Callaway, Brad Tenant, Shuvaloy Majumdar, Cam Davies and I were in attendance.

At that strategy meeting, we agreed that Jeff Callaway will join the UCP leadership race as a candidate and will run a campaign aimed at discrediting Brian Jean. We felt that it was important for Jason Kenney to win decisively and that this could only be guaranteed if another candidate took away from Jean’s popularity. To show unity, we needed a big win.

At that meeting, we agreed that Jeff’s campaign will be staffed with competent people who will run a credible campaign, but in collaboration with Jason’s campaign. We also agreed that at an appropriate time Jeff Will pull out of the race and endorse Kenney.

I recall that I asked how we’re going to finance the second campaign. I was told not to worry, that won’t be my responsibility and that the money will be taken care of.

At that meeting, Kenny asked that I be included in future strategy meetings. I attended several strategy meetings since that time.

It troubles me to see volunteers blamed for the Kamikaze Campaign, as it was our strategy group that planned it. It’s time that each one of us admits to our role in staging Callaway’s campaign and not blame it on volunteers.

I hope that this brings some clarity to this matter. UCP MLAs, candidates and all Albertans deserve to know what really happened.

With respect
HAPPY MANN

[Xtrema]

I am pissed about all this for sure. I wanted Jean to win.

Buuut nothing short of some Church level perversion will make me vote for anyone else

Kenney will find his own Gerald Butts and dive on this fire and then life moves on.

[rage2]

Isn't this similar to what Druh Farrell does to get split votes so she can win?

[killramos]

From what I understand there is no evidence any of this actually occurred aside from BJ complaining and Snotley piling on?

Callaway hated BJ, and probably did run as a torpedo candidate but there isn’t any evidence this was actually a conspiracy cooked up by JK and the UCP, my understand is BJ just reaped what he sowed on this one.

[dirtsniffer]

Isn't this similar to what Druh Farrell does to get split votes so she can win?

druh called out kenney on twitter because of his new female candidates not getting 'tactile running' and i tried hard to find an article about this but came up empty handed

[pheoxs]

From what I understand there is no evidence any of this actually occurred aside from BJ complaining and Snotley piling on?

Callaway hated BJ, and probably did run as a torpedo candidate but there isn’t any evidence this was actually a conspiracy cooked up by JK and the UCP, my understand is BJ just reaped what he sowed on this one.

Well now its multiple people within the party making similar claims. Hardyal Mann also came out and claims to have been in the meeting when all this was discussed and even listed who was present.

https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=2243406692393153&id=100001715338508


"Jason Kenny, John Wiesnberg, Jeff Callaway, Brad Tenant, Shuvaloy Majumdar, Cam Davies and I were in attendance."

[kertejud2]

From what I understand there is no evidence any of this actually occurred aside from BJ complaining and Snotley piling on?

Callaway hated BJ, and probably did run as a torpedo candidate but there isn’t any evidence this was actually a conspiracy cooked up by JK and the UCP, my understand is BJ just reaped what he sowed on this one.

Well they’ve basically admitted it occurred, their stance has moved from “We didn’t do it” to “what we did isn’t illegal, it’s just politics.”

[Tik-Tok]

Well they’ve basically admitted it occurred, their stance has moved from “We didn’t do it” to “what we did isn’t illegal, it’s just politics.”

Looks like it was illegal, but only on Callaway's end for not reporting it.

[HiTempguy1]

I won't say nobody, there is a sizable Jean supporters within merged UCP. Especially how Kenney has been removing old grassroot WR candidates from running for UCP.

Saving grace is this comes in too late for those grassroots start another party to go against UCP.

We're certainly on the same page for once, and your saving grace comment is 100% correct. I suppose a better statement would be "under the circumstances, nobody cares enough to do anything about it".

[Xtrema]

From what I understand there is no evidence any of this actually occurred aside from BJ complaining and Snotley piling on?

Plenty of evidence in the leaked document and some people involved are coming forward.

https://www.elections.ab.ca/resources/legislation/election-finances-and-contributions-disclosure-act/


Investigating complaints of breaches of the Act and consenting to prosecution, if warranted

Which is why it's in RCMP's hands, to be proven in court of course if charges are warranted.

The difference between Trudeau's scandal vs this one is that Trudeau's is ideological where Kenney's is legal. But I think this is Callaway's legal problem anyway, not Kenney's

I think it's sloppy. They should have sent Calloway to get instruction/consultancy by Manning Institute and they would have got away with it.

[HiTempguy1]

Callaway hated BJ, and probably did run as a torpedo candidate but there isn’t any evidence this was actually a conspiracy cooked up by JK and the UCP, my understand is BJ just reaped what he sowed on this one.

Does it matter? Is any of that illegal?

It's kind of like the whole Trump/Russian collusion thing. Yea, there have been criminal charges, all related to tax/bank fraud, nothing to do with actual chargeable offences on Russian collusion. Same here, what they did was ethically dubious, but the charges are to campaign violations by one guy whose not involved anymore, not Kenney and the current crew.

Now, from a moral/ethical standpoint, I am upset about this. I would rather Brian Jean have won if he would have been a much more morally/ethically clean individual. But it's folly to play by the rules if the rules are being broken by the opposing team, so I'm not going to condemn Kenney (especially when he specifically didn't do anything).

[Xtrema]

Does it matter? Is any of that illegal?

It is illegal but it doesn't matter because what I have said earlier.


"The Act is pretty clear that campaigns are allowed to share resources with one another, but they have to disclose it when they do," University of Alberta political scientist Jared Wesley said.

Wesley specifically pointed to a section of Alberta's Election Finances and Contributions Disclosure Act. It states that parties, constituency associations, candidates, and contestants can transfer goods and services to each other; the goods and services won't be considered contributions but the recipient must record the "source and amount."

He noted Callaway's final campaign return, which is publicly available online, does not disclose any services the campaign received from Kenney's campaign.

So this is how I expect this will go down. Callaway get slap with violation get penalize. And we will never hear about this again.

This is why Callaway is keeping his mouth shut. He got the most to lose on this whole scandal.


Now, from a moral/ethical standpoint, I am upset about this. I would rather Brian Jean have won if he would have been a much more morally/ethically clean individual. But it's folly to play by the rules if the rules are being broken by the opposing team, so I'm not going to condemn Kenney (especially when he specifically didn't do anything).

It's your prerogative if you think someone as controlling and calculating as Kenney "didn't do anything" in this whole scandal. But it's the only way out for him.

Like I said, there are enough posts on this thread to warrant my claim that Kenney literally have to kill someone and get caught to stop him from being our next premier. Because fake news.

[pheoxs]

https://twitter.com/aryan_sadat/status/1107820856112082944?s=21

Look like some UCP members are resigning from the party over this

[lasimmon]

Whole lotta under estimating going on in this thread.

Literally the one thing people were afraid of Kenny about has now happened. I wouldn’t be shocked if the election is extremely close.

[Xtrema]

https://twitter.com/aryan_sadat/status/1107820856112082944?s=21

Look like some UCP members are resigning from the party over this

Won't be surprised if these people are sidelined by Kenney. Does Kenney care about NE? Lol.

And do you think they will stay home and watch NDP win to prove their point.

Edit: Of course UniteAlberta try to discredit Sadat immediately.
https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.4343101?__twitter_impression=true

Also UCP say this is fake news
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/ucp-resignations-deny-1.5062076

This shit show is fun to watch now. :D

[kertejud2]

Might as well make this a general UCP problems thread:

UCP Candidate Complained ‘White Supremacist Terrorists’ Are Treated Unfairly, Leaked Messages Show

After PressProgress supplied her with copies of the messages, Ford did not deny authoring them but instead asked “who shared these statements with you?” Ford did not respond to subsequent e-mails asking if she intended to provide a statement or offer any additional context to her statements.

https://pressprogress.ca/ucp-candidate-complained-white-supremacist-terrorists-are-treated-unfairly-leaked-messages-show/

[Buster]

Her point about the double standard regarding Islamic terrorism vs white nationalist terrorism actually is valid. It is inconsistent to suggest bad ideas can cause bad actions in one case, but not the other.

Her comments about "replacement of white peoples" is, of course, deplorable. It's also an argument that is used in Canada with respect to aboriginal people every day, with noble but misguided intent.

Here I'll show you:

"I am somehow saddened by the demographic replacement of First Nations people in their homelands...because the loss of demographic diversity in the human race is sad. I think it is unlikely that aboriginal culture will survice without aboriginal people. Why would another race want to cast away their own culture to adopt someone else's on such a massive scale."

Very few good, noble, politically correct Canadian SJWs would complain about that statement. It's also a deplorable focus on race.

[kertejud2]

There hasn't been a focused mandate by the majority to eradicate white culture through force like there was with aboriginal culture, so to try and paint both with the same brush is, for lack of a better term, deplorable.

[Buster]

There hasn't been a focused mandate by the majority to eradicate white culture through force like there was with aboriginal culture, so to try and paint both with the same brush is, for lack of a better term, deplorable.

White Nationalism is deplorable in areas where whites face persecution (for lack of a better term), also. Utilizing race to assign qualities to a person is the deplorable bit, regardless of which race or any other circumstance.

[kertejud2]

White Nationalism is deplorable in areas where whites face persecution (for lack of a better term), also. Utilizing race to assign qualities to a person is the deplorable bit, regardless of which race or any other circumstance.
You're the only one who has been utilizing race to assign qualities to a person. You made up a statement you figure an 'SJW' would support, and that's it.

White's aren't facing persecution in Western countries, as much as you and your white nationalist buddies think they are. Meanwhile there was a government sponsored initiative to eradicate aboriginal culture that target and persecuted people based on race. You're just parroting white nationalist talking points and rhetoric.

[Buster]

You're the only one who has been utilizing race to assign qualities to a person. You made up a statement you figure an 'SJW' would support, and that's it.

White's aren't facing persecution in Western countries, as much as you and your white nationalist buddies think they are.

I'm doing the opposite. You're being a typical SJW racist - you just think you can create a beneficial racist scenario, which then makes the racism acceptable. It's illogical and disgusting of you. Expected, but disgusting.

[kertejud2]

I'm doing the opposite.

No you're not.

You tried to make it seem like a made up statement you made is somehow equatable to an actual statement made by a political candidate to try and downplay the latter. But you're also too dumb to realize how even if your made up statement was actually made by somebody, isn't actually equatable to the positions of white nationalists anyway because one side was actually persecuted and attempted to be replaced based on race, while white people in this country haven't been. You're trying to pretend like racism isn't a thing (or that if it is, we're all experiencing it equally, which is dumb). You don't think you're doing it because you're convinced you're smarter than that, but you are following the white nationalist rhetoric step by step.

[Buster]

I think you need to go back and read more carefully (no seriously, go do it). Also your attempted and, frankly, inelegant use of a straw man I find insulting - as if you think it wouldn't be obvious. Either you're being lazy, or you're just not as smart as you think you are. Over time I realize the latter is likely the case.

Anyhow, my point above couldn't be more clear: stupid logic is stupid logic regardless of where it is applied. I was not trying to bolster her opinion - I called it deplorable. I just think the same use of similar bankrupt logic in different contexts is equally stupid.

My opinions stem from a firm conviction that under the skin humans don't differ in any way that is relevant or important. Hardly the talking point of a white nationalist. So by sheer force of logic, any policy which might distinguish people based on race is nonsensical. It was nonsensical to use it to justify the pogroms against North American aboriginals during the darkest times of our history. It was nonsensical during the residential schools disaster. It has always been nonsensical. It will always be nonsensical. It was nonsensical when Ford said so above. It is also nonsensical when used to justify modern-day Canadian policy towards aboriginal people. Defying that the concept that we are all just the same under skin will not cure the sins of the past. It just perpetuates the deplorable notion that we can and should be distinguished because of race.

My deepest belief is that people have no important distinctions beyond the superficial. White nationalist? Take that nonsense elsewhere.

[dirtsniffer]

https://calgaryherald.com/news/local-news/corbella-from-human-rights-to-film-to-politics-caylan-ford-is-a-force-of-nature

Looks like corbella was wrong. Here is a puff piece written for the candidate. Some interesting quotes though.

No normal people will ever run for politics. Got that right.

[kertejud2]

My opinions stem from a firm conviction that under the skin humans don't differ in any way that is relevant or important. Hardly the talking point of a white nationalist. So by sheer force of logic, any policy which might distinguish people based on race is nonsensical. It was nonsensical to use it to justify the pogroms against North American aboriginals during the darkest times of our history. It was nonsensical during the residential schools disaster. It has always been nonsensical. It will always be nonsensical. It was nonsensical when Ford said so above. It is also nonsensical when used to justify modern-day Canadian policy towards aboriginal people. Defying that the concept that we are all just the same under skin will not cure the sins of the past. It just perpetuates the deplorable notion that we can and should be distinguished because of race.

My deepest belief is that people have no important distinctions beyond the superficial. White nationalist? Take that nonsense elsewhere.

The reason a concentrated effort needs to be made to preserve aboriginal culture is because there was an active attempt to destroy it. Turning back and saying “yeah, sorry, we’d help re-build these bridges we burned down, but that would be racist” just doesn’t fly.

Similarly, trying to paint things that actually happened (residential school systems, relocation of people, general colonization and the violence that came with it) with stuff that isn’t (Ford’s comments) to justify not doing anything about the former just doesn’t fly either. By trying to pretend race doesn’t matter is to pretend racism doesn’t exist, which is “nonsensical.” Nobody would like people to stop focusing on race more than white nationalists because then you can ignore issues like systemic racism and maintain the status quo. Shift the issue from race (bad) to preserving culture (good) and it shifts the focus from ‘supremacy’ to ‘nationalism’ and also opens the door to attack people for their religion. Like I said, you’re following the playbook, even though you think you’re not. It stated when confronted with a political candidate using white nationalist rhetoric, you immediately deflected to something unrelated like how the government is being racist by catering to traditionally oppressed groups.



Anyways, Ford resigned.

1107905312336633856

[Misterman]

The reason a concentrated effort needs to be made to preserve aboriginal culture is because there was an active attempt to destroy it. Turning back and saying “yeah, sorry, we’d help re-build these bridges we burned down, but that would be racist” just doesn’t fly.

Similarly, trying to paint things that actually happened (residential school systems, relocation of people, general colonization and the violence that came with it) with stuff that isn’t (Ford’s comments) to justify not doing anything about the former just doesn’t fly either. By trying to pretend race doesn’t matter is to pretend racism doesn’t exist, which is “nonsensical.” Nobody would like people to stop focusing on race more than white nationalists because then you can ignore issues like systemic racism and maintain the status quo. Shift the issue from race (bad) to preserving culture (good) and it shifts the focus from ‘supremacy’ to ‘nationalism’ and also opens the door to attack people for their religion. Like I said, you’re following the playbook, even though you think you’re not. It stated when confronted with a political candidate using white nationalist rhetoric, you immediately deflected to something unrelated like how the government is being racist by catering to traditionally oppressed groups.



Anyways, Ford resigned.

1107905312336633856

You sure like to pretend a lot of your opinions are facts. Whether or not you think there was an attempt to destroy aboriginal culture, does not mean that it needs to be preserved now. You can argue in support of it through affirmative action all you want, but it's still just your opinion. And your comment about re-building bridges, insinuates the only way to do that is through reverse racism as you have been advocating. Another short sighted opinion.

It's really ironic that people who claim to care about things like racism and ensuring people are treated fairly, always advocate for policies or ideas that ensure non-white races will be kept down in the long run.

[95EagleAWD]

You sure like to pretend a lot of your opinions are facts. Whether or not you think there was an attempt to destroy aboriginal culture, does not mean that it needs to be preserved now. You can argue in support of it through affirmative action all you want, but it's still just your opinion. And your comment about re-building bridges, insinuates the only way to do that is through reverse racism as you have been advocating. Another short sighted opinion.

It's really ironic that people who claim to care about things like racism and ensuring people are treated fairly, always advocate for policies or ideas that ensure non-white races will be kept down in the long run.

I'd like to hear how it's "reverse racism" to help a culture that yes, we actively helped destroy, preserve itself? What BAD comes from helping native tribes preserve their traditions and cultures?

[kertejud2]

You sure like to pretend a lot of your opinions are facts. Whether or not you think there was an attempt to destroy aboriginal culture, does not mean that it needs to be preserved now.

Who gets to decide that?


You can argue in support of it through affirmative action all you want, but it's still just your opinion. And your comment about re-building bridges, insinuates the only way to do that is through reverse racism as you have been advocating. Another short sighted opinion.

Yeah, nobody was advocating this.

The point is that lamenting the loss of white people’s homes and Western culture is not the same as aboriginal culture for the simple reason that there isn’t actually a targeted government effort to end white (er, Western) culture. There was for aboriginal culture. Therefore the two statements are not interchangeable because they have completely different contexts behind them.


It's really ironic that people who claim to care about things like racism and ensuring people are treated fairly, always advocate for policies or ideas that ensure non-white races will be kept down in the long run.

It’s also ironic that people who claim not to be racist care more about the unrelated treatment of First Nations to deflect from the actual racist comments of a conservative candidate.

[Buster]

The reason a concentrated effort needs to be made to preserve aboriginal culture is because there was an active attempt to destroy it. Turning back and saying “yeah, sorry, we’d help re-build these bridges we burned down, but that would be racist” just doesn’t fly.

Similarly, trying to paint things that actually happened (residential school systems, relocation of people, general colonization and the violence that came with it) with stuff that isn’t (Ford’s comments) to justify not doing anything about the former just doesn’t fly either. By trying to pretend race doesn’t matter is to pretend racism doesn’t exist, which is “nonsensical.” Nobody would like people to stop focusing on race more than white nationalists because then you can ignore issues like systemic racism and maintain the status quo. Shift the issue from race (bad) to preserving culture (good) and it shifts the focus from ‘supremacy’ to ‘nationalism’ and also opens the door to attack people for their religion. Like I said, you’re following the playbook, even though you think you’re not. It stated when confronted with a political candidate using white nationalist rhetoric, you immediately deflected to something unrelated like how the government is being racist by catering to traditionally oppressed groups.





Your nonsense is the same flawed logic all SJWs use to create identify and race-based policies. Your main flaw is that you assume that an argument against your racism must also include racism. This is because white nationalists are using fire to fight fire in an argument where both sides are nonsensical. It's nonsense because no amount of history (good or bad) can change the fact that past basic superficiality we are all the same. It is impossible to justify white nationalist policies for the same reasons that it is impossible to justify ones you would consider "beneficial" to races you consider deserving of special treatment. You're just so used to thinking in terms of racial identity that you forget that people arguing against the concept of racial identity are simply not playing your game. White nationalist and racial-identity driven SJWs are making different versions of the same argument. I am not.

Also, don't confuse "race" and "culture". That's more racist nonsense. Culture is not embedded in genes. Honestly, SJW nonsense knows no bounds.

Also, the best way to combat white nationalism is to stop bolstering their argument that we should be aligning ourselves along racial lines. Either you think race should be used for making policy, or you do not. You and your acknowledgement that racial identity is a valid qualifier share far more with white nationalists than someone who understands that we're all the same under the skin.

[kertejud2]

It's nonsense because no amount of history (good or bad) can change the fact that past basic superficiality we are all the same.


someone who understands that we're all the same under the skin.

Well it's a good thing everybody has been treated the same and is therefore on a level playing field. People definitely aren't treated differently because of skin colour or racial background, how could it, under that we're just the same.

[Buster]

Well it's a good thing everybody has been treated the same and is therefore on a level playing field. People definitely aren't treated differently because of skin colour or racial background, how could it, under that we're just the same.

When people do it, it's illogical and immoral.

But I think you're starting to make progress.

[Xtrema]

Might as well make this a general UCP problems thread:

UCP Candidate Complained ‘White Supremacist Terrorists’ Are Treated Unfairly, Leaked Messages Show

After PressProgress supplied her with copies of the messages, Ford did not deny authoring them but instead asked “who shared these statements with you?” Ford did not respond to subsequent e-mails asking if she intended to provide a statement or offer any additional context to her statements.

https://pressprogress.ca/ucp-candidate-complained-white-supremacist-terrorists-are-treated-unfairly-leaked-messages-show/

1) People are dumb that expects everything they do on social media/apps will ever stay private.

2)


"Later in the conversation, Ford declared “I think it is unlikely that Western culture will survive without Western peoples” if “another race” becomes dominant.

“Why would another race want to cast away their own culture to adopt someone’s elses,” Ford wrote."

If she really did write that, that's a pretty dangerous view IMO. At a minimum, it can be taken out of context for white supremacist groups.

[ExtraSlow]

Now my riding has no UCP candidate, fucking hell.

[Xtrema]

Now my riding has no UCP candidate, fucking hell.

UCP is not replacing Ford?

[ExtraSlow]

UCP is not replacing Ford?

Oh there will be a candidate, I just mean there isn't one yet.

[kertejud2]

When people do it, it's illogical and immoral.

It isn't illogical, it's usually for personal gain at the expense of others, which is part of what makes it immoral. But since nothing should be done about it, how immoral can it be?

Now you've gone from pretending racism doens't exist, but that despite being immoral nothing should be done about it...because that would be racist.

[Buster]

It isn't illogical, it's usually for personal gain at the expense of others, which is part of what makes it immoral. But since nothing should be done about it, how immoral can it be?

Now you've gone from pretending racism doens't exist, but that despite being immoral nothing should be done about it...because that would be racist.

No, I just dont think the solution to racism is...more racism.

[killramos]

Kertejud’s solution - Racism with a Smile!

[01RedDX]

.

[Buster]

I think it's better to say "people are racist" rather than "everybody's equal" and then go from there. Evolving and overcoming our past takes a lot of work, it means confronting our horrible nature, healing, reconciling.
No, white western culture wasn't the only perpetrator of mass-scale racist oppression in the world. There's just been a very obvious and disproportionate effect on certain marginalized groups.
It's one thing to just look away and hope this is the last of the "lost generation" but the lazy axiom of "everybody's equal" is becoming this insidious moralistic fallacy that is no better than race-baiting.

i said there is no relevant ways to distinguish between races.

[kertejud2]

i said there is no relevant ways to distinguish between races.

Then it must not have happened, problems solved.

[Buster]

Then it must not have happened, problems solved.

There's a lot of IRRELEVANT ways to distinguish between race. A point on which the SJWs such as yourself and the White Nationalists agree.

[kertejud2]

There's a lot of IRRELEVANT ways to distinguish between race.

You keep using this word, but I don't think it means what you think it does.

If you're going to try and assimilate a group of people based on their race, then what you are distinguishing between races on by definition becomes relevant:

For example:

"We're going to separate these people into groups based on skin colour."

"Hey, we have two people here with different skin colour, but what do we do if they both have the same hair colour?"

"That's irrelevant. Put that one into Group B, the other into Group A, skin colour is the only relevant trait we will use to distinguish people."


So what exactly are you trying to say?

[Buster]

You keep using this word, but I don't think it means what you think it does.

If you're going to try and assimilate a group of people based on their race, then what you are distinguishing between races on by definition becomes relevant:

For example:

"We're going to separate these people into groups based on skin colour."

"Hey, we have two people here with different skin colour, but what do we do if they both have the same hair colour?"

"That's irrelevant. Put that one into Group B, the other into Group A, skin colour is the only relevant trait we will use to distinguish people."


So what exactly are you trying to say?


If you want to play the race game either as an SJW or a White Nationalist, you probably have to engage in such distasteful exercises. I do not.

[kertejud2]

If you want to play the race game either as an SJW or a White Nationalist, you probably have to engage in such distasteful exercises. I do not.

You defend a white nationalist, dismiss the effects of race-based atrocities, don't understand what words you're using, but are still trying to stay planted some sort of moral high ground. Adorable.

[Buster]

You defend a white nationalist, dismiss the effects of race-based atrocities, don't understand what words you're using, but are still trying to stay planted some sort of moral high ground. Adorable.

In order:

Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. Correct. My wife thinks so.

[Misterman]

I'd like to hear how it's "reverse racism" to help a culture that yes, we actively helped destroy, preserve itself? What BAD comes from helping native tribes preserve their traditions and cultures?

You're left, so you already don't have a basic understanding of the word racism to be able to coherently understand such things. Racism is different treatment based on race. So if you're going to offer benefits to one race and not another, that is racism. Period.

What bad comes from our governments effort to "preserve" aboriginal culture? Umm, you ever been to a reserve? There is a reason reserve aboriginals are doing so poorly by comparison to the average Canadian citizen. First of all, white people can not help preserve aboriginal culture, all we can do is give them a place to preserve it themselves. Which we have, they're called reserves, being that it is land reserved for them to live their life how they choose without interference from us. So the loss of their culture is actually their own fault.

Being that they are given just enough to not strive for better, is a psychological prison that prevents them from doing better. That's the other level to what bad can happen, because I'm sure the benefits they receive were initially given with good conscience in mind. Top that with the fact that anyone who does try to strive for better from a reserve is essentially outcasted from their community due to the general racism against white people, and aboriginals don't stand a chance.

If one truly wanted to help them preserve their culture, you would advocate for treating them equals and allowing them to adapt to the new world where they can flourish personally and financially, and then have a more stable life to practice their culture.



Who gets to decide that?


They get to decide if they want to preserve their own culture or not. Nobody is standing in the way of it.



Yeah, nobody was advocating this.

The point is that lamenting the loss of white people’s homes and Western culture is not the same as aboriginal culture for the simple reason that there isn’t actually a targeted government effort to end white (er, Western) culture. There was for aboriginal culture. Therefore the two statements are not interchangeable because they have completely different contexts behind them.

Well then feel free to fill me in on what your idea is of helping them preserve culture if it is not what you insinuated?

There is no targeted government effort to end western culture? Perhaps you aren't paying attention to the political landscape around you.




It’s also ironic that people who claim not to be racist care more about the unrelated treatment of First Nations to deflect from the actual racist comments of a conservative candidate.

I don't know who did that? But cool story bro.

[kertejud2]

They get to decide if they want to preserve their own culture or not. Nobody is standing in the way of it.

The government famously stood in the way of it. Not just stood in the way, but actively pressed to oppress it. Which is why they're offering restitution. Generally what happens when one party commits an immoral act against another.

[ExtraSlow]

Now my riding has no UCP candidate, fucking hell.
UCP is not replacing Ford?
Oh there will be a candidate, I just mean there isn't one yet.Well, the new candidate has been annouced, it's the guy who finished second in the original nomination.

UCP finds replacement for star candidate who resigned after white supremacist comments

New nominee Jeremy Wong is an ordained minister and 'committed conservative'
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/ucp-calgary-mountain-view-new-candidate-1.5065385

Local candidates don't make much difference in provincial politics, so this probably doesn't change much about the end result in this riding.

[phreezee]

Seriously, who cares who the MLA candidates are if Deborah Drever is the sitting MLA for Calgary Bow.

[Brent.ff]

Ha. like an ordained minister is going to find "any "redeeming values" in LGBT Pride parades"...

[Tik-Tok]

Seriously, who cares who the MLA candidates are if Deborah Drever is the sitting MLA for Calgary Bow.

Seriously? What was the worst she did, gave the finger to a tshirt or something? Definitely on par with sympathizing with white supremacists.

[phreezee]

Seriously? What was the worst she did, gave the finger to a tshirt or something? Definitely on par with sympathizing with white supremacists.

You got it mixed up, she gave the finger to the Canadian flag, and there was a picture with a weed shirt as well as one depicting rape culture.

Not claiming equivalence, but people blindly vote for their party anyway, so again who cares who the candidate is.

[kertejud2]

Well, the new candidate has been annouced, it's the guy who finished second in the original nomination.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/ucp-calgary-mountain-view-new-candidate-1.5065385

Local candidates don't make much difference in provincial politics, so this probably doesn't change much about the end result in this riding.

A white person being replaced in their own country, Ford's nightmare is coming to life!

[Buster]

A white person being replaced in their own country, Ford's nightmare is coming to life!

Well, who places where on the Hierarchy of Oppression and Grievance, a white woman or an asian man?

[HiTempguy1]

Well, who places where on the Hierarchy of Oppression and Grievance, a white woman or an asian man?

Intersectionalism is a god damn cancer.

[kertejud2]

Well, who places where on the Hierarchy of Oppression and Grievance, a white woman or an asian man?

Whichever one is the gay, non-cis one, obviously.