CPS - new SWAT vehicle

[4WARNED]

My apologies i can't link the photo in my post, but holy...

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/canada/calgary-police-replace-armoured-vehicle-used-by-tactical-unit/ar-BBVM0GG

[ExtraSlow]

85536
'ere ya go.

[Mitsu3000gt]

Looks heavy - storing it in Forest Lawn / Dover should save a bundle on gas.

[CMW403]

Holy smokes. What are they actually expecting to encounter with this thing? I mean unless you have an RPG, you really stand zero chance against something like this... seems like another waste of tax dollars to me.

What size engine would be in that beast?

[spikerS]

Holy smokes. What are they actually expecting to encounter with this thing? I mean unless you have an RPG, you really stand zero chance against something like this... seems like another waste of tax dollars to me.

What size engine would be in that beast?

Who knows what they will encounter. But Calgary is a city now of 1.? million people. And people are getting weirder. The old one got used quite a few times if the stories I heard were true.

I would rather have it and not need it, and need it and not have it.

[Mitsu3000gt]

What size engine would be in that beast?

Just a truck engine pretty much, nothing special - usually 6.7L Turbodiesel or similar from whatever it's based on. The BearCat for example uses a 6.7L Ford Powerstroke Diesel. They aren't fast haha, they just need to move pretty much. Most ARVs weigh around 20,000-30,000+ lbs (that one looks on the bigger side) which is similar to a big pickup truck with a huge payload.

Cost $500K apparently which actually isn't as bad as I expected. It's made by Cambli, a company in Quebec.

[rx7boi]

Holy smokes. What are they actually expecting to encounter with this thing? I mean unless you have an RPG, you really stand zero chance against something like this... seems like another waste of tax dollars to me.

What size engine would be in that beast?


Who knows what they will encounter. But Calgary is a city now of 1.? million people. And people are getting weirder. The old one got used quite a few times if the stories I heard were true.

I would rather have it and not need it, and need it and not have it.

From the article:


Last year, the ARV was used in some 500 calls, including an incident in the community of Abbeydale during which an officer was shot.

Shietttttt haha.

[Kg810]

Holy smokes. What are they actually expecting to encounter with this thing? I mean unless you have an RPG, you really stand zero chance against something like this... seems like another waste of tax dollars to me.

What size engine would be in that beast?

https://i.imgur.com/HXmPsX6.png

[Gman.45]

Holy smokes. What are they actually expecting to encounter with this thing? I mean unless you have an RPG, you really stand zero chance against something like this... seems like another waste of tax dollars to me.

Without knowing the specific stats of the new vehicle, that similar MRAP and other armored vehicles used in the mid east by our forces will protect the occupants from even RPGs to a large extant. There are tons of pics/vids out there of these types of vehicles hit by explosive weapons, vbied or rockets, whatever, and they keep the people inside safe. Sometimes they are degraded, even mobility killed, but the vast majority of the time the occupants survive.

It's not a waste of tax money, you can't expect the L/E or tactical unit guys to solve every potentially violent problem without a mobile system that can repel the vast majority of fire it could expect. There are lots of guys in AB with .50 cal, even 20mm rifles/weapons, not to mention anyone with a bit of knowledge and time can build a pretty powerful bomb or shaped charge even. It's for when nuts get a hold of these types of weapons that LE needs a modern armored vehicle. Is it more armor than even the Tac unit typically needs? Probably, but better to have and not need, than to need and not have, when you're considering all the possible threats they could have to face down.

[schocker]

Looks heavy - storing it in Forest Lawn / Dover should save a bundle on gas.
I think it would sink pretty deep when parked on a lawn.

[killramos]

Couldn’t CPS just borrow one from the forces for a case of beer when they need it?

Don’t we have a few armoured vehicles stationed in Calgary?

Coolness factor aside. It sure does seem like an awful lot of money for something that inevitably will get very little use.

[spikerS]

Coolness factor aside. It sure does seem like an awful lot of money for something that inevitably will get very little use.

As RX7boy pointed out from the article...


Last year, the ARV was used in some 500 calls, including an incident in the community of Abbeydale during which an officer was shot.

so, the ARV gets used every single day, sometimes twice a day. How much more would it need to be used to be considered being used enough in your books? Granted, it may not be used each of those 500 calls, but there were 500+ calls where it was initially deemed necessary for it to respond.

[Gman.45]

Couldn’t CPS just borrow one from the forces for a case of beer when they need it?

Don’t we have a few armoured vehicles stationed in Calgary?

Coolness factor aside. It sure does seem like an awful lot of money for something that inevitably will get very little use.

Not really, no, the Calgary Highlanders certainly don't have any MRAP or armored vehicles designed to operate in an LE environment. 41 Combat Engs don't have anything suitable either. Plus the time factor is a big problem with that idea, much better from an operationally standpoint to have your asset in your own possession. Trying to borrow things like this for everything, training, real world callouts, etc, wouldn't work IMO.

Most similar MRAPS I've seen weighed around 40k lbs or more. Nowhere near as heavy as an MBT or AFV, but not that light either.

[asp integra]

Looks heavy - storing it in Forest Lawn / Dover should save a bundle on gas.

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

[killramos]

As RX7boy pointed out from the article...



so, the ARV gets used every single day, sometimes twice a day. How much more would it need to be used to be considered being used enough in your books? Granted, it may not be used each of those 500 calls, but there were 500+ calls where it was initially deemed necessary for it to respond.

I mean I’m sure they drag it out every chance they get. So would I lol.

I just mean use in that it is actually being used for utility, rather than 99.9% where it is essentially a show of force. I am very interested in these countless incidents that they claim it has been used where it legitimately saved lives (quote from global).

I really was just joking about borrowing an armoured vehicle from the Forces for a case of beer if that wasn’t clear.

[D'z Nutz]

Damn. When CPS SWAT disrespects your whole family, they're going to stay disrespected.

[ShermanEF9]

Holy smokes. What are they actually expecting to encounter with this thing? I mean unless you have an RPG, you really stand zero chance against something like this... seems like another waste of tax dollars to me.

I'll take the one time 500k hit for endless use over the potential hospital bill for the officers that could have used it.

[Rat Fink]

.

[killramos]

I would say the “show of force” idea you have would be the minority of usage. The main utility would be a hardened point of cover for officers to be at a closer distance from any barricaded subject where the subject has access to weapons. The closer distance would facilitate the means to be able to negotiate better with the person, would provide a means to get officers closer to a structure for entry, and would even be a means to breach a door or structure.

I know you own several guns. What if you went batshit crazy one day and beat your significant other and told her you’d shoot her in the head as well as any officer or K9 who comes close? Would you expect officers to roll up in explorers and calmly walk up to your front door? Or would you think the safer alternative would be to make use of an ARV?

A bit dramatic much :rofl:

I just think the thing is expensive, I don’t have a great sense of what they actually use it for. Lots of hypotheticals where it could be used for. I am more curious about what actual use the last one provided aside from showing up.

I felt like the last one (Knight XV?) was a lot cheaper than that? Checking conquests website they seem to have really gone up in price but that’s for a posh model. They had a ton of financial issues so probably had to bump
Prices up.

[spikerS]

A bit dramatic much :rofl:

I just think the thing is expensive, I don’t have a great sense of what they actually use it for. Lots of hypotheticals where it could be used for. I am more curious about what actual use the last one provided aside from showing up.

I felt like the last one (Knight XV?) was a lot cheaper than that? Checking conquests website they seem to have really gone up in price but that’s for a posh model. They had a ton of financial issues so probably had to bump
Prices up.

I think you too proud to admit you made a dumb statement and trying to back it up with weak arguments.

A bit dramatic? That literal scenario probably plays out every day somewhere in Canada, and with Calgary having a 1+ million population, we will have an above average number of these instances. I mean, I can remember last year of at least 3 active shooter situations in Calgary where the CPS had blocked off large areas of communities where the old ARV was used heavily.

But, you are now focusing on price. Well, how about you pick up a badge and a gun, and then pick the vehicle you want to stand behind while some jacked up random takes shots at you with unknown calibre weapons. Because if you won't pick the cheaper option, you sure as hell can't ask them to.

[revelations]

When you consider that a fully patrol ready PC (guns, radios, computers, etc.) hits the taxpayers at around 100k......500k for this type of utility doesent sound all that bad to be honest.

Also, of the 500 calls last year - many of them were simply to serve high risk warrants.

When the "heavy metal" shows up at your door - its a really bad idea to start beaking off about weapons.

[Rat Fink]

.

[killramos]

A bit dramatic? I was in that exact scenario. ��

You went postal and threatened to shoot your wife? Fuck that really sucks man.

You guys make it sound like we should be procuring these for all officers, cause you never know / if it only saves one life / think of the children.

As for the question of picking up a badge and standing behind a vehicle, thousands of officers do just that every day. And power to them, I have no problems with police officers or some inane desire to put them in undue harms way but it is the nature of the job.

I have issues with another 6 figure discretionary line item in a city budget that is hemorrhaging cash. Except it’s for the police service, so it’s above reproach question or debate. Carry on.

[msommers]

Looks heavy - storing it in Forest Lawn / Dover should save a bundle on gas.


I think it would sink pretty deep when parked on a lawn.

:rofl::rofl:

[Rat Fink]

.

[killramos]

Your posts really sum it up. You have no idea what actually happens out there.

Thanks for showing up to the party bud :thumbsup:

[Rat Fink]

.

[killramos]

Really though, if your job involved more risk than stubbing your loafers on the edge of your desk or getting a paper cut you’d want a tool that would be available to mitigate unnecessary risk to human life, whether it’s your life or someone else’s. You won’t get it though. Don’t break your nails changing your toner cartridge ��

Loafers? Always been more of an Oxford guy. I get it though, honest mistake from someone whose shoes do up with Velcro.

Feel better now? Get a fucking grip bud and realize you are nowhere near as special as you think you are. Your neck must be real sore from all that looking down on other people that you do.

[Disoblige]

500k is cheap when you consider a new fire pump truck costs $300k -without- any tools.

[killramos]

500k is cheap when you consider a new fire pump truck costs $300k -without- any tools.

I dunno. A lot of truck to a fire truck and I’m sure the pumps and mechanical don’t come cheap. A pumper truck being 300 almost makes me feel like 500 is too much even more. 300ish is more around where I figured a police armoured vehicle like this would land.

Took a look at what CPS’s budget is since I didn’t really understand the scope of where this thing lands. 450 Million ++. That’s real money, no wonder a half million dollar toy seems like nothing to them. But what if’s and safety, so carry on.

[Rat Fink]

.

[killramos]

It’s this smug attitude of yours consistently looking down on police officers in multiple threads on here that irks me. By your reasoning, police shouldn’t have tools or equipment to make their role safer (and safer for citizens) or more efficient because it’s the job they signed up for. Did you know a bomb suit costs roughly $45k? Should police be tackling calls dealing with explosives wearing regular uniforms because in your mind that’s what they signed up for?

I think everything is a point of debate, especially on a discussion forum. And your immediate jump to insulting me, or even having the gall to say I have the potential to be some kind of psychotic wife beating mall shooter because of hobbies I enjoy ( pretty sure I don't have to point out the irony of this considering what I presume is your profession), just proves your inability to have a civil conversation.

Smug attitude? That’s all you have exhibited in this entire thread. Grow the fuck up and welcome to the real world you claim to know so much about where people get to question you. Maybe rethink your ludicrous statement that I have some kind of consistent anti police officer bias across this forum. I think I have far more than an average respect for people in the profession, that doesn’t mean I won’t call people out for their attitudes towards others or my questions and debates on laws and policies and the place of law enforcement in society.

I however have no interest in being bullied into silence by you and your assumptions of who gets to have an opinion on a topic or question motives and justifications of where tax dollars are spent. Because I couldn’t give 2 fucks less about what you think of me.

[Sugarphreak]

...

[SKR]

or even having the gall to say I have the potential to be some kind of psychotic wife beating mall shooter because of hobbies I enjoy

You can live your life however you like so either take this advice or don't, but you should take another run at reading that post because I don't think you quite got it on the first lap.

[killramos]

You can live your life however you like so either take this advice or don't, but you should take another run at reading that post because I don't think you quite got it on the first lap.

Yea it wasn't me who decided to make up the hypothetical scenario where I beat my wife and threaten to shoot her in the head. That was the other clown when i questioned the cost of CPS's toy.

[SKR]

Yea it wasn't me who decided to make up the hypothetical scenario where I beat my wife and threaten to shoot her in the head. That was the other clown when i questioned the cost of CPS's toy.

Right on. Have a good one then.

[Gman.45]

A bit dramatic much :rofl:

I just think the thing is expensive, I don’t have a great sense of what they actually use it for. Lots of hypotheticals where it could be used for. I am more curious about what actual use the last one provided aside from showing up.

I felt like the last one (Knight XV?) was a lot cheaper than that? Checking conquests website they seem to have really gone up in price but that’s for a posh model. They had a ton of financial issues so probably had to bump
Prices up.

$500k is actually a pretty good deal. Some similar MRAP/ARV type vehicles that US departments use are upwards of $700K USD, and you can easily look that up.

The old vehicle they are decommissioning was getting old, and getting replacement parts for even regular maintenance was apparently very difficult. Logistics is very important with vehicles such as this, and if you can't get even simple parts, then unexpected mechanical issues will be even harder to deal with. Cambli is a Canadian company that builds a lot of armored vehicles, and makes models right across the spectrum. Buying a Canadian made vehicle= smart decision IMO, and again, that price is pretty competitive.

A couple companies I worked for in the mid to later 2000s operated a lot of various armored vehicles. This was right around the time that the USA got serious about up armoring their softer skin vehicles, and right around the time when MRAP type vehicles started showing up in small numbers. We had BMW armored cars which were level 7 armor, tricked out motors, steel armor around the cabin and armored glass rated to stop up to 30 cal armor piercing, and had stopped DshK rounds once. These vehicles were pretty expensive, I know Triple Canopy was given some that had been "seized" by US forces from the locals, and the similar vehicles the company bought were well over 200 grand US at that time. Armored trucks like Suburbans were even more.

Even civilian models of a Suburban armored truck are over $150k USD, and they aren't even close to the capability and protection the new CPS ARV gives.

https://www.lascointl.com/vehicles/804.htm

Considering what I know my companies paid for armored vehicles over a decade ago, $500k CAD is a very reasonable price to pay for the capability the new truck gives. Also considering the logistics issues the old unit had, the yearly cost of keeping the new vehicle in service will drop as well, especially in terms of the unit's uptime/availability.

[Rat Fink]

.

[Homerrca]

I am wondering if the cost could be potentially shared with the surrounding communities if they don't have access to one like Airdrie as an example. They might not need it as much or at all but if there was a bit of cost sharing involved, it would reduce the price to the city.. which would most likely mean another ring or some crap.

[ZenOps]

Yup, Anti-tank molten copper RPG round would make quick work of it. Not that its a regular type of thing.

[ExtraSlow]

I am wondering if the cost could be potentially shared with the surrounding communities if they don't have access to one like Airdrie as an example. They might not need it as much or at all but if there was a bit of cost sharing involved, it would reduce the price to the city.. which would most likely mean another ring or some crap.

Wait, this thing was used 500 times last year, so your solution is to get it used more?

[heavyfuel]

Yup, Anti-tank molten copper RPG round would make quick work of it. Not that its a regular type of thing.

Don't even have to go that far.... as Gman mentioned earlier lots of .50's and 20mm floating around here... the right ammo either one of those is gonna make that thing look like a tuna can. Hell, even a .338 would probably do the job.

The thing that bothers me the most about this is half a mil of our tax money going to Quebec. Again.

[Homerrca]

Wait, this thing was used 500 times last year, so your solution is to get it used more?

My solution is to use it more. Calgary might have 1 million + but it's not like all the folks who force us to buy these devices due to their habits/issues don't just live in our city. If Airdrie needs it or another area around Calgary require it to help save a life, I am all for them using it and if we can get them to assist in paying for it, then it's a win win.

I am not saying we rent it out for kids birthdays or anything like that but if could reduce the cost of the vehicle and it's maintenance, it makes sense to me but I would prefer we didn't need it (never going to happen).

[ExtraSlow]

What's a good target? 5 times a day?

[killramos]

$500k is actually a pretty good deal. Some similar MRAP/ARV type vehicles that US departments use are upwards of $700K USD, and you can easily look that up.

The old vehicle they are decommissioning was getting old, and getting replacement parts for even regular maintenance was apparently very difficult. Logistics is very important with vehicles such as this, and if you can't get even simple parts, then unexpected mechanical issues will be even harder to deal with. Cambli is a Canadian company that builds a lot of armored vehicles, and makes models right across the spectrum. Buying a Canadian made vehicle= smart decision IMO, and again, that price is pretty competitive.

A couple companies I worked for in the mid to later 2000s operated a lot of various armored vehicles. This was right around the time that the USA got serious about up armoring their softer skin vehicles, and right around the time when MRAP type vehicles started showing up in small numbers. We had BMW armored cars which were level 7 armor, tricked out motors, steel armor around the cabin and armored glass rated to stop up to 30 cal armor piercing, and had stopped DshK rounds once. These vehicles were pretty expensive, I know Triple Canopy was given some that had been "seized" by US forces from the locals, and the similar vehicles the company bought were well over 200 grand US at that time. Armored trucks like Suburbans were even more.

Even civilian models of a Suburban armored truck are over $150k USD, and they aren't even close to the capability and protection the new CPS ARV gives.

https://www.lascointl.com/vehicles/804.htm

Considering what I know my companies paid for armored vehicles over a decade ago, $500k CAD is a very reasonable price to pay for the capability the new truck gives. Also considering the logistics issues the old unit had, the yearly cost of keeping the new vehicle in service will drop as well, especially in terms of the unit's uptime/availability.

I wonder if a smaller fleet (say 3) of those ~150k Suburbans would be more useful in an urban/suburban policing role. Far easier to get to an incident, less obvious if any kind of secrecy is needed and I am sure you can get them into more places (no sinking into lawns haha). You have redundancies in the event two are needed in one place, especially if these things are needed as often as people claim. While they aren’t going to protect from someone firing a 50 cal through his front door, I am sure standard armoured vehicles meet the capability of the lions share of the lions share of the needs for things like this. With even far fewer logistics issues.

This new vehicle looks substantially larger and I am sure more capable than the previous one, question is is that additional level of capability needed in the issues it is responding to?

I am sure at the companies you worked for previously every one of these procurements had substantial cost-benefit analysis applied to them based on varying levels of what is necessary and what is likely for their contracts. That is all I am really suggesting in this discussion on the cost of this particular unit, was this particular unit needed and was the cost justified for what it’s duties are and the service it provides as a taxpayer. Without catch all statements like “it’s safer”.

[ExtraSlow]

You may not believe this, but some form of cost benefit analysis is definitely done for capital expenditures of this size.

[killramos]

You may not believe this, but some form of cost benefit analysis is definitely done for capital expenditures of this size.

Pardon my skepticism of a city of Calgary cost benefit analysis process.

[Homerrca]

I am not thinking there would be a target number or anything like that. I am saying is there was an incident in Airdrie (bank robbery gone wrong) or if there was an incident at an acreage that requires this vehicle to be used, it would make sense to use the vehicle vs sending out a cop car with no added protection to deal with the situation. Maybe there already is a deal in place that I am not aware of (like if there is a major fire outside the city, sometimes the CFD will send a truck to assist). If the vehicle sits for a month then that is a good thing and means we didn't have a situation where it was needed.

[ExtraSlow]

Fuck I told myself I wouldn't get drawn into this thread. I've failed myself.

[killramos]

Fuck I told myself I wouldn't get drawn into this thread. I've failed myself.

I always appreciate your shining disposition in every thread.

[Homerrca]

85542

[rx7boi]

It's hard to imagine that something like this exists in Calgary when it looks straight out of a Michael Bay movie but working with the law enforcement/veteran population has taught me it's pretty nasty out there. Average joe like myself would never be in some of the sticky situations they've been in.

The other way I think about it is if it costs $500,000 and we used it 500 times last year. Well, that's only an additional $1000 per high risk usage. These guys and gals are putting their life on the line every day and if some crackhead starts taking potshots at 5-0, sheet metal from a car door isn't going to stop it like Hollywood.

If I'm reading the article correctly, it was also originally purchased in 2007 so we got a good 12 years of usage out of it, right?

[Lex350]

Yea it wasn't me who decided to make up the hypothetical scenario where I beat my wife and threaten to shoot her in the head. That was the other clown when i questioned the cost of CPS's toy.


this still demonstrates you don't know what you are talking about in terms of how it is used and you are doubling down because, well you don't like to admit that maybe you are wrong.

[Gman.45]

I wonder if a smaller fleet (say 3) of those ~150k Suburbans would be more useful in an urban/suburban policing role. Far easier to get to an incident, less obvious if any kind of secrecy is needed and I am sure you can get them into more places (no sinking into lawns haha). You have redundancies in the event two are needed in one place, especially if these things are needed as often as people claim. While they aren’t going to protect from someone firing a 50 cal through his front door, I am sure standard armoured vehicles meet the capability of the lions share of the lions share of the needs for things like this. With even far fewer logistics issues.

This new vehicle looks substantially larger and I am sure more capable than the previous one, question is is that additional level of capability needed in the issues it is responding to?

I am sure at the companies you worked for previously every one of these procurements had substantial cost-benefit analysis applied to them based on varying levels of what is necessary and what is likely for their contracts. That is all I am really suggesting in this discussion on the cost of this particular unit, was this particular unit needed and was the cost justified for what it’s duties are and the service it provides as a taxpayer. Without catch all statements like “it’s safer”.

That's a reasonable enough question.

CPS guys would likely have much better answers than me, but from my perspective this is the likely answer to your question.

The new ARV (and the old one) have the ability to mount much heavier armor than a lvl 7/etc Suburban. We got hit once by a pair of teams using 762x54R Russian machine guns, the typical Russian ammunition isn't AP, but it's usually all steel/steel core bullets, which penetrate more than the standard US/NATO type rounds typically. The glass stopped the rounds (only a few companies made that glass in the world at that time, and quality control was high). The armor in the doors (steel) failed and several rounds blew though, hitting 2 guys in the back seat. Just an example of a regular caliber which lots of cheap Russian surplus rifles fire (Nagant), defeating the armor on a civilian model car.

Armoring civilian vehicles isn't a bad idea for some purposes, it's just that their suspensions and bodies can only handle so much weight. The larger ARV trucks obviously are specifically built to handle a higher armor rating, which they have.

Another big advantage in the ARV is just the space and configuration inside. Having to fight with a rifle from inside a civilian type armored vehicle like a large sedan or Suburban type truck is a giant PITA. When the vehicle is full of officers/operators, (yes I said the magic stupid word, F off), it's very difficult to fight out of them due to space. Also they don't have a specific spot usually due to the nature of armored vehicles to shoot out of. Our BMW/Suburbans let you roll down the side windows just a couple or few inches, due to their thickness that's as far down as you can get them to go. Just enough to get your barrel out, and have a very difficult time trying to get a proper grip on your weapon in order to get a sight picture. The Suburbans you pretty much had to open the door to fight, which negates the point of having armor as you're then exposed to fire. They had a rear PFO cage where we could shoot out of, but again, it's not an easy spot to get your sights on target from, not to mention it's sector of fire is extremely narrow.

Look at the new ARV. It has a turret on the roof for this specific reason, giving the ability to stand up and move the turret to any axis you need to, while still giving maximum protection to the officer inside - which is the whole point of an armored vehicle. Civilian models just don't let you do this, not as well anyway for certain. Again, a CPS member who is familiar with these vehicles and the tactics they employ could explain this far better than I'm trying to, I'm just explaining my experience with armor civilian type vehicles and the limitations they had compared to something like the ARV.

Pics of our Suburbans, compare this to the ARV pictures...

85543
85544

[Sugarphreak]

...

[themack89]

I was just thinking about this... so they deploy heavy armor twice a day in Calgary?

Lol I know right? I instantly called BS on this when I read it. Shouldn't these deployment reports be made available after some time?

I think on another note, people are ignoring the elephant in the room. It was mentioned that the vehicle was manufactured by a Quebec entity. So that's $500k of Albertan tax payer dollars that is now circulating in Maple Syrup county.

I understand these things are public tenders, and the Quebec company likely had the lowest bid, but still.... I would have rather it been $600k and made right here in Calgary.

[Gman.45]

I understand these things are public tenders, and the Quebec company likely had the lowest bid, but still.... I would have rather it been $600k and made right here in Calgary.

Fair point, I hate the idea of ANY $ going to Quebec, but the problem is there isn't anyone in Calgary that builds these things to that sort of spec (I think, there wasn't while I was there). A guy who used an office in our old training building in Calgary with the first PMC I worked for, was the 2nd largest seller of armor material for both body and vehicle systems in the world back in the 2000s, but I don't think any companies during that time or now build large armored vehicles in Calgary or AB. I'd rather CPS bought it from a Canadian company - even Quebec, blah - than a US one, just for logistics reasons as I already mentioned.

[Xtrema]

Pardon my skepticism of a city of Calgary cost benefit analysis process.

CBA doesn't exist outside of private businesses.


My solution is to use it more. Calgary might have 1 million + but it's not like all the folks who force us to buy these devices due to their habits/issues don't just live in our city. If Airdrie needs it or another area around Calgary require it to help save a life, I am all for them using it and if we can get them to assist in paying for it, then it's a win win.

I am not saying we rent it out for kids birthdays or anything like that but if could reduce the cost of the vehicle and it's maintenance, it makes sense to me but I would prefer we didn't need it (never going to happen).

That's not how it works. It's all about availability and readiness. What is something huge goes downs in Calgary while it's out in Airdrie?

Unless Airdrie (or any other surrounding cities) allows CPS to become their police force (and pays for it), they should not have access to CPS gears.

[msommers]

Gman.45 I don't know your specific job but given your knowledge on this and related topics...your job sounds badass.

Years ago when I was living in North Haven there was the tactical truck parked in front of our house. My roommate and I were checking it out when we saw one of the tac guys walking down the street toward us -- turns out they were raiding a high-level drug dealer down the street. When I saw this guy, it was like out of a fucking movie or video and he was an absolute beast of a man. Some huge rifle, pistols on both legs, grenades and flash bangs across his chest, plus body armour essentially everywhere. Super nice guy! He made a joke to me that it's usually the smaller guys that are the worst to deal with, since they rely more heavy on big guns haha.

I couldn't imagine that guy busting down my door and feeling the need to fight back.

[killramos]

That's a reasonable enough question.

CPS guys would likely have much better answers than me, but from my perspective this is the likely answer to your question.

The new ARV (and the old one) have the ability to mount much heavier armor than a lvl 7/etc Suburban. We got hit once by a pair of teams using 762x54R Russian machine guns, the typical Russian ammunition isn't AP, but it's usually all steel/steel core bullets, which penetrate more than the standard US/NATO type rounds typically. The glass stopped the rounds (only a few companies made that glass in the world at that time, and quality control was high). The armor in the doors (steel) failed and several rounds blew though, hitting 2 guys in the back seat. Just an example of a regular caliber which lots of cheap Russian surplus rifles fire (Nagant), defeating the armor on a civilian model car.

Armoring civilian vehicles isn't a bad idea for some purposes, it's just that their suspensions and bodies can only handle so much weight. The larger ARV trucks obviously are specifically built to handle a higher armor rating, which they have.

Another big advantage in the ARV is just the space and configuration inside. Having to fight with a rifle from inside a civilian type armored vehicle like a large sedan or Suburban type truck is a giant PITA. When the vehicle is full of officers/operators, (yes I said the magic stupid word, F off), it's very difficult to fight out of them due to space. Also they don't have a specific spot usually due to the nature of armored vehicles to shoot out of. Our BMW/Suburbans let you roll down the side windows just a couple or few inches, due to their thickness that's as far down as you can get them to go. Just enough to get your barrel out, and have a very difficult time trying to get a proper grip on your weapon in order to get a sight picture. The Suburbans you pretty much had to open the door to fight, which negates the point of having armor as you're then exposed to fire. They had a rear PFO cage where we could shoot out of, but again, it's not an easy spot to get your sights on target from, not to mention it's sector of fire is extremely narrow.

Look at the new ARV. It has a turret on the roof for this specific reason, giving the ability to stand up and move the turret to any axis you need to, while still giving maximum protection to the officer inside - which is the whole point of an armored vehicle. Civilian models just don't let you do this, not as well anyway for certain. Again, a CPS member who is familiar with these vehicles and the tactics they employ could explain this far better than I'm trying to, I'm just explaining my experience with armor civilian type vehicles and the limitations they had compared to something like the ARV.

Pics of our Suburbans, compare this to the ARV pictures...

85543
85544

Fair point, lots of high caliber rifles out there.

Hard to tell from a picture but it doesn’t really look like that ARV has much ability to “fight” from inside it either though?

It’s also my understanding that many US police forces with MRAP’s by and large aren’t buying them, but are receiving them handed down (ie free) from armed forces surplus with much smaller costs to retrofit for policing use. Obviously that’s a country with a very different military scope and procurement system than we do but I wonder if something like that would have been feasible? https://www.miaminewtimes.com/news/miami-beach-police-obtain-military-armored-mrap-truck-from-department-of-defense-9357062

[killramos]

Gman.45 I don't know your specific job but given your knowledge on this and related topics...your job sounds badass.

This. GMan’s stories are always epic.

[themack89]

Fair point, I hate the idea of ANY $ going to Quebec, but the problem is there isn't anyone in Calgary that builds these things to that sort of spec (I think, there wasn't while I was there). A guy who used an office in our old training building in Calgary with the first PMC I worked for, was the 2nd largest seller of armor material for both body and vehicle systems in the world back in the 2000s, but I don't think any companies during that time or now build large armored vehicles in Calgary or AB. I'd rather CPS bought it from a Canadian company - even Quebec, blah - than a US one, just for logistics reasons as I already mentioned.

Acknowledged. It is an unfortunate reality that when you are buying something relatively niche, then you just have to be a price taker.

On a side note... PMC = Prime Military Contractor?

[Gman.45]

Fair point, lots of high caliber rifles out there.

Hard to tell from a picture but it doesn’t really look like that ARV has much ability to “fight” from inside it either though?

It’s also my understanding that many US police forces with MRAP’s by and large aren’t buying them, but are receiving them handed down (ie free) from armed forces surplus with much smaller costs to retrofit for policing use. Obviously that’s a country with a very different military scope and procurement system than we do but I wonder if something like that would have been feasible? https://www.miaminewtimes.com/news/miami-beach-police-obtain-military-armored-mrap-truck-from-department-of-defense-9357062

The military class MRAPs like the one Miami is using are all over $1mil CAD, at least. A lot of departments got them from the military in the USA for free when they decommissioned them for whatever reason, the end of US participation in Iraq in a large scale left a lot of MRAPs left over. Remember that 747 that crashed right after takeoff? It was a load of several MRAPs on that plane, and one broke loose and crashed through a bulkhead wrecking that plane's hydraulic controls. They were flying those out back to the USA every day back then, and a ton of departments had them donated to them by the DOD in the US. Buying one outright is probably 2 or 3x what the Quebec built vehicle cost. I don't think a Canadian department could get a "donated" US MRAP due to the ITAR treaty, as CPS is a civilian agency and not a military one, along with a lot of other legal/import/etc rules and reasons which I'm not familiar with. The Canadian army used the RG31 (IIRC) and the Textron AFV, but neither of those is optimal for civilian LE use, nor is the Canadian army donating stuff like this to LE agencies. But you're correct, it would be nice if LE agencies here could get free hand me downs from the military (both US and Canadian), but it isn't likely to happen. I'm sure CPS would like to take that $500k and put it elsewhere in their budget too, but I doubt it was possible (again a CPS member would be able to comment better on this).

Look at the new CPS ARV - notice the turret on the roof? That's what I'm talking about, this gives a TAC unit officer the ability to properly engage threats while still being inside a very protected environment. Again, this is something you can't really do with a civilian uparmored vehicle. Plus the extra armor protection of the entire vehicle, the rest of the space inside it, etc.

YT video shows some interior pics - even the firing ports in the doors are in places which make it far easier to get into a proper shooting position to engage any threats, which you couldn't do in a civilian sized vehicle. Plus the turret, although I'm not 100% certain it has firing ports, but I can't think of any reason why it wouldn't. Otherwise it's sort of useless for anything other than observation, and this truck has high speed whizzy electronic surveillance systems by the look of it already.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nM4Q5Zt7NS4

85546

[nzwasp]

Speaking of the old one it’s being used right now in the SE 85547 unsure what’s going on.

Actually didn’t notice this but swat are standing in this 2nd pic with their guns out outside this house in Ogden

85548

[killramos]

Too lazy to quote but that’s a good video!

My question is also whether or not the vehicle has the capability to fire from it. The picture doesn’t make it look like it has that capability. Even in the turret. Looks pretty sealed up. Which as you said is fine for observation I guess but not sure this really has substantial “assault” capability?

[Gman.45]

Too lazy to quote but that’s a good video!

My question is also whether or not the vehicle has the capability to fire from it. The picture doesn’t make it look like it has that capability. Even in the turret. Looks pretty sealed up. Which as you said is fine for observation I guess but not sure this really has substantial “assault” capability?

You can see in the rear doors the handle/mechanism you use to open up the firing ports in the rear door. The side of the vehicle has the same ports, making taking a kneeling firing position possible from their height (this is just an estimation without having been inside of it). I know I'm repeating myself, but this is something you can't do as well in a normal vehicle, and is critical for fighting with a rifle from an armored vehicle optimally. So far as the turret, again, we can't see the entire thing, it could have a firing gap built into it, or a moveable panel like the doors. At the start of the YT video, If you look closely at the very front 12 oclock position of the turret, there is what looks like a closed firing port right in the center panel between the two front windows.

There are tons of other capabilities this truck has which a SME or CPS/TAC guy could explain as well, but in terms of having to deal with threats using lethal force, this truck is far superior to civvy type vehicles IMO based on this one factor I've been blabbing about alone.

NZWasp - they probably just park in the SE so they're nearby when something goes down, ha ha. :guns: :)

[e31]

Its all due the rat<snake<mongoose scenario. CPS had to upgrade because some hoodlums bought some US army surplus from Ironplanet.

As was said earlier, I'd like to see the utilization reports if that thing is being used 500 timer per year. I saw it parked infront of a Safeway in the NE while the officer was picking up some Eggos. I guess that may qualify as "community outreach"

[HiTempguy1]

The police are not required to protect/save us. I'd like to think for $500k, in the off chance that they manage to get somewhere I was in danger at in sufficient time before someone made me dead, that they had the tools that made them feel comfortable to risk their lives to do so even when they aren't required to.

This doesn't strike me as a silly purchase. What I would LIKE to know is how often it can be shown that this vehicle either reduces officer injuries, or is key in saving someone's life.

Has a SWAT vehicle really ever made THE difference in saving a hostage? Or really made the officers THAT much safer, especially knowing that they are not obligated to risk their lives for mine?

[nzwasp]

85549

The standoff moved inside the house now.

Probably 10 swat officers and a dog inside.

The cops are saying something like:

Resident of this house please come to the door or phone 911 if you are experiencing a medical emergency and follow the directions of the police in your house.

[Gman.45]

The police are not required to protect/save us. I'd like to think for $500k, in the off chance that they manage to get somewhere I was in danger at in sufficient time before someone made me dead, that they had the tools that made them feel comfortable to risk their lives to do so even when they aren't required to.

This doesn't strike me as a silly purchase. What I would LIKE to know is how often it can be shown that this vehicle either reduces officer injuries, or is key in saving someone's life.

Has a SWAT vehicle really ever made THE difference in saving a hostage? Or really made the officers THAT much safer, especially knowing that they are not obligated to risk their lives for mine?

Fair question as well regarding the past vehicles use, however IMO it's not about what the past vehicle has done operationally, and more about growing threats and behaviors, and the unpredictable nature of those threats, that makes purchasing a more capable/new vehicle warranted. If you watch the YT video the inspector does a pretty good job explaining this.

So far as LE/CPS risking their life for yours, I realize that they don't take an oath to trade their life for yours like the Secret Service PSD details and such, but I think every LE officer in Canada I've known has demonstrably shown that they are willing to lay their life on the line for their fellow officers and every member of the public out there. IMO it's not a question of that so much, as it's a question of capability vis a vis the ARV. Armor or not, LE have and will put themselves at risk to protect the public, but in a case where say Capt Nutjub decides to start spraying down his neighborhood with a mag fed semi auto rifle, having a vehicle like the ARV can end this sort of thing far more quickly, as it allows the officers to punch in far closer, right up to the threat in fact if necessary, and give the officers a clearer picture of what's happening, and an easier shot to smoke check the threat if that's necessary. Time-Distance-Cover, is the circular equation that rules all gunfights and armed conflict with firearms, and the ARV gives CPS officers a positive increase in all 3. Less time, closer distance, better cover.

[msommers]

...the ARV gives CPS officers a positive increase in all 3. Less time, close distance, better cover.

Nuff said. Dollars well spent.

[Mitsu3000gt]

Calgary doesn't have anything called a SWAT team FYI, lots of people seem to be referencing that but it's more of a USA thing. Calgary has the Tactical Unit (TAC) and the RCMP has the Emergency Response Team (ERT).

[Shlade]

The amount of people who have no idea what happens beyond the safe walls of their homes/every day lives is always hilarious.

If people knew half the shit Police were responding to, they'd never leave their house.

[Maxt]

I don't mind them having one, I can totally understand its role, but I just wonder how they wore out what looks like a military grade vehicle on paved roads in 12 years?
500 callouts at give them 50 km round trip and give them an additional 20k for screwing around with it, so what did it have 45,000 kms? And my current loaded down work truck is about to roll 500k.
If its got a ford 6.0 or 6.4 in it, then it makes sense...

[spikerS]

I don't mind them having one, I can totally understand its role, but I just wonder how they wore out what looks like a military grade vehicle on paved roads in 12 years?
500 callouts at give them 50 km round trip and give them an additional 20k for screwing around with it, so what did it have 45,000 kms? And my current loaded down work truck is about to roll 500k.
If its got a ford 6.0 or 6.4 in it, then it makes sense...

replacement parts for it are no longer available, and the parts that are out there are going up in price as they become used. Remember a lot of this stuff on these are not off the shelf Ford parts...

At least this is what I heard in one of the interviews.

[RT16V]

The amount of people who have no idea what happens beyond the safe walls of their homes/every day lives is always hilarious.

If people knew half the shit Police were responding to, they'd never leave their house.

This.

All the bad shit that happens doesn’t make the news. Saw that beast in our neighborhood a couple weeks back and a whole couple of streets were roped off for a day.....

[Maxt]

replacement parts for it are no longer available, and the parts that are out there are going up in price as they become used. Remember a lot of this stuff on these are not off the shelf Ford parts...

At least this is what I heard in one of the interviews.
Yeah I think that was a bit of spin added to justify a new one, ISIS took territory cobbling together almost 30 year old humvees with no support, and the city can't fix a 12 year old truck.

[Mitsu3000gt]

I friend of mine is on the TAC team and I went to his bachelor party, to which a bunch of his coworkers were also invited. That was, by far, the least fun I have ever had playing paintball :rofl:

But yeah I have friends in CPS, RCMP, ERT, and TAC - I get lots of stories and I would agree that people have no idea what they deal with. Also if your life was on the line, you'd want to be rolling into a sketchy situation with armor as well.

[CMW403]

Its all due the rat<snake<mongoose scenario. CPS had to upgrade because some hoodlums bought some US army surplus from Ironplanet.

As was said earlier, I'd like to see the utilization reports if that thing is being used 500 timer per year. I saw it parked infront of a Safeway in the NE while the officer was picking up some Eggos. I guess that may qualify as "community outreach"

Source?

[revelations]

The amount of people who have no idea what happens beyond the safe walls of their homes/every day lives is always hilarious.

If people knew half the shit Police were responding to, they'd never leave their house.

Back when scanners were open, I used to listen in to the calls on the West Coast (Nanaimo).

It was depressingly stupid and petulant most of the time. So and so arguing and fighting (again), passed out drunks and crackheads.

[Shlade]

Back when scanners were open, I used to listen in to the calls on the West Coast (Nanaimo).

It was depressingly stupid and petulant most of the time. So and so arguing and fighting (again), passed out drunks and crackheads.

What else did you expect from Nanaimo? haha:rofl:

[revelations]

What else did you expect from Nanaimo? haha:rofl:

Fuck, should have expected that .... LOL

[Maxt]

I talked to a friend of mine who was a heavy duty mechanic with the City and also ex military about this unit.
He said its built on a F-550 chassis so saying they couldn't get part anymore is not a reasonable explanation for replacing it. But he did say its got a 6.4 powerstroke in it and those motors haven't been the best performers
in equipment that gets pulled out cold, then has the balls driven off it, then parked hot. He thinks they paid 250k for it in 2008.

[freshvibes]

Seems a little overkill but having the best tools for the job never hurts. If you can save even one person’s life with it 500k isn’t that bad.