Changes to Alberta electricity market

[ExtraSlow]

Can someone explain the coming changes to the Alberta electricity market? What's the situation now, what is proposed, and how will that incentivize different forms of electricity generation and transmission?
I know we have several utilities guys on the forum.

[HiTempguy1]

Can someone explain the coming changes to the Alberta electricity market? What's the situation now, what is proposed, and how will that incentivize different forms of electricity generation and transmission?
I know we have several utilities guys on the forum.

Liberals are clearly in big coal's pockets:

https://nationalpost.com/news/coal-could-be-the-real-winner-under-federal-carbon-tax-new-report-suggests

Burn baby burn!

P.S Can we get that nuclear reactor finally? Pretty please?? :(

[jwslam]

85746

[Disoblige]

Can someone explain the coming changes to the Alberta electricity market? What's the situation now, what is proposed, and how will that incentivize different forms of electricity generation and transmission?
I know we have several utilities guys on the forum.
Current system is an "energy only" market, which means utility companies only get paid for the energy that is produced/sold.

We're moving to a "capacity market" in 2021 which means generators get paid for available capacity they can provide as well as getting paid for actual production and delivery of energy.

This provides more incentive for investment into our utility system, or in other words, more attractive to put in new capacity especially with Alberta's plan to completely phase out coal for 2030 (unrealistic? probably). This means we need ~5000 MW of reliable energy to replace coal. Compared to other places, we have some of the lowest power price but this is bad for long term growth.

All things considered, this change should be bringing better long term prediction of energy costs due to less price volatility (price spikes in certain hours due to capacity shortage) and hopefully more environmentally friendly options for power. Alberta also has quite a bit of private co-generation so if they can sell excess power back to the grid, they can help the province's demand to an extent.

Questions that would be raised are:

- What happens to our bills in 2021? Technically shouldn't be higher than what we see now. If anything, it'll be more consistent
- Who will be the first people to invest?
- Can these renewable sources provide consistent power long term?

[DboyNismo]

Kenney does have 90 days to review the proposed changes and may scrap the capacity market, keeping the current energy-only structure. Capacity market was intended to ensure that participants still received a return on capital in an era where renewables were entering the market.

Since Kenney is most likely rolling back the renewable procurement program, the question stands whether the capacity market is needed right now.

[Xtrema]

An analysis by EDC Associates found the transition to a capacity market will procure additional electricity before it’s needed, requiring consumers to pay up to 40 per cent more — an extra $1.4 billion — for power in 2021-22 than under the existing market structure.

https://calgaryherald.com/opinion/columnists/varcoe-kenney-holds-the-power-as-electricity-sector-faces-profound-change

It will be interesting what will be decided in 90 days.

Also, while our energy cost is cheap, it's really no cheaper than BC when you include all the fees*.

* If you keep it under 1350kwh/month.

[ExtraSlow]

Regarding renewables, I know I've been hearing that they were roughly on-par with costs to build new natural gas fired plants. I thought that meant without government subsidy, but I'm not sure. Anyone know what new utility scale solar costs are?

- - - Updated - - -

Also, so the capacity market should encourage new generation infrastructure, which may reduce price volatility, although possibly at a higher "floor" price? Is that right?

And lastly, has anyone been talking about making consumer / residential power prices time-dependant like industrial power is? Aren't our largest spikes in demand driven by summer residential AC loads? Makes a lot of sense to me, but would require changes to metering equipment.

[Xtrema]

Also, so the capacity market should encourage new generation infrastructure, which may reduce price volatility, although possibly at a higher "floor" price? Is that right?

That plan is pushing all the investment that's happening right now.

https://www.aeso.ca/download/listedfiles/2019-02-LTA-Final.pdf

Expect those wind and solar projects to disappear if UCP ends it without using other incentives. Also we are also running a deficit right now. As I post this, there is ~400MW flowing from BC/Montana and it's not even hot yet.

[HiTempguy1]

Also, so the capacity market should encourage new generation infrastructure, which may reduce price volatility, although possibly at a higher "floor" price? Is that right?


Ah yes, charge us more overall so we can have a steady bill. WTF kind of logic is that??! Especially at a 40% price premium.

One can only pray UCP does the right thing. We have enough natural gas to make cheap, clean electricity for a long time, which will help us with cost savings/revenue generation so we can actually afford proper renewable resources (like nuclear) that are fully developed and ready to be implemented at no price premium.

[Xtrema]

Especially at a 40% price premium.

Up to*. And like I said, energy cost is only 1/2 of your bill right now, majority of bill will still be delivery cost which I don't see how it will go anywhere but up.

Now nobody knows. We are definitely on deficit and projects are coming in to tackle that deficit but investment won't be here without market condition to support it.

I don't think NDP cancelling coal early was wise because it introduce a bad environment for investments. UCP doing a 180 will have the same effect because it kills the budding diversification that is green energy and regardless of cost, we need it to tackle deficit and solar is great for attacking day time deficit. And gas would be great to generate night time surplus for BC Hydro.

No expert, but I hope we find a middle ground somewhere.

[HiTempguy1]

We are definitely on deficit

Nope. As of 2016.

https://globalnews.ca/news/3084840/alberta-changing-how-it-produces-and-pays-for-electricity/

Alberta power prices are languishing near multi-year lows as a result of excess supply and slowing economic growth in the oil-producing province.

We are nowhere near a deficit in power generation, unless we are now due to the NDP closing coal plants. Which may be able to be restarted, or converted to gas.

The fucking boondoggles the NDP caused keep adding up. Well over $10bil in damages to the finances of Alberta above and beyond their crazy spending already. Holy crap.

As for "up to", have you ever seen government come under budget? It will most certainly be closer to 40% than closer to 0%.

[HiTempguy1]

https://globalnews.ca/news/4382750/alberta-reaches-new-summer-high-for-electricity-use/

2018

Alberta set a new summer record for electricity consumption on Thursday, using 11,163 MW of power, according to the Alberta Electric System Operator.

2017 https://www.neb-one.gc.ca/nrg/ntgrtd/mrkt/nrgsstmprfls/ab-eng.html

Alberta is the 3rd largest producer of electricity in Canada and has a generating capacity of 16 458 megawatts (MW)

[Xtrema]

Nope. As of 2016.

https://globalnews.ca/news/3084840/alberta-changing-how-it-produces-and-pays-for-electricity/


We are nowhere near a deficit in power generation, unless we are now due to the NDP closing coal plants. Which may be able to be restarted, or converted to gas.

The fucking boondoggles the NDP caused keep adding up. Well over $10bil in damages to the finances of Alberta above and beyond their crazy spending already. Holy crap.

As for "up to", have you ever seen government come under budget? It will most certainly be closer to 40% than closer to 0%.

So you are quoting a 2016 article over Feb 2019 forecast report released by AESO and current grid stats?

http://ets.aeso.ca/ets_web/ip/Market/Reports/CSDReportServlet

[HiTempguy1]

So you are quoting a 2016 article over Feb 2019 forecast report released by AESO and current grid stats?

http://ets.aeso.ca/ets_web/ip/Market/Reports/CSDReportServlet

You are telling me Alberta, LAST YEAR, set a peak usage of 11, 600MW and we have 16,500MW of capacity available, and somehow we are in an electricity deficit?

What are you smoking? Do you not understand peak usage and generating capacity? Are you suggesting we've LOST 5000MW of generating capacity?

They are forecasting almost 100% margin when factoring in everything that has been announced. 70% with approved. And 20% with no intertie and current in construction projects.

85748

We are perfectly fine, and the situation would look much better with coal plants. Likely, they could be brought back online if the economics are there and the UCP reverses the NDP electricity boondoggle.

[M.alex]

current - generators get paid when they produce real electricity

proposed - go to a system where some revenue comes from producing electricity and some comes from promising to be available when needed (even if you're never needed)

reason - jamming in a lot of renewable growth impacts system volatility (price swings) so the new market design mutes price swings because it rams in a lot of supply and impacts how generators can offer it into the market

impact - consumers will pay $1-2 billion more per year for electricity

solution - no more policy mandated renewable growth means the current design can stay intact, which the UCP is looking at doing

[Xtrema]

You are telling me Alberta, LAST YEAR, set a peak usage of 11, 600MW and we have 16,500MW of capacity available, and somehow we are in an electricity deficit?

What are you smoking? Do you not understand peak usage and generating capacity? Are you suggesting we've LOST 5000MW of generating capacity?

They are forecasting almost 100% margin when factoring in everything that has been announced. 70% with approved. And 20% with no intertie and current in construction projects.

85748

We are perfectly fine, and the situation would look much better with coal plants. Likely, they could be brought back online if the economics are there and the UCP reverses the NDP electricity boondoggle.

Please review the list of projects that will help us hit 70% and count how many would be under the crosshair of Kenney if his follow thru with his rhetoric and how many of those projects would be dropped off if the capacity market doesn't exist.

https://www.aeso.ca/download/listedfiles/2019-02-LTA-Final.pdf

For now, you can't beat NG generators in term of cap cost. And if EV price parity hits by 2025 as estimated, expect to blow this forecast out and even if we hit 70%, we could only hit 60% due to extra load.

And how likely will it hit 110% now if Kenney only approves gas generators going forward? Will we get hit with lawsuits again and pay tons of money for nothing like the early coal cancellation? This is why I hate NDP for that ideological move removing coal too early and got us down a more expensive road. Original PC's plan would have been more gentle transition.

[ZenOps]

I'm doing my part to green the earth, just bought my first solar panel - A 5 watt.

[M.alex]

Please review the list of projects that will help us hit 70% and count how many would be under the crosshair of Kenney if his follow thru with his rhetoric and how many of those projects would be dropped off if the capacity market doesn't exist.

https://www.aeso.ca/download/listedfiles/2019-02-LTA-Final.pdf

For now, you can't beat NG generators in term of cap cost. And if EV price parity hits by 2025 as estimated, expect to blow this forecast out and even if we hit 70%, we could only hit 60% due to extra load.

And how likely will it hit 110% now if Kenney only approves gas generators going forward? Will we get hit with lawsuits again and pay tons of money for nothing like the early coal cancellation? This is why I hate NDP for that ideological move removing coal too early and got us down a more expensive road. Original PC's plan would have been more gentle transition.


The reserve margin doesn't really mean anything because it's just an arbitrary weighting of supply divided by peak demand (and what's worse is Alberta's peak demand is winter but majority of system stress events are spring/summer, so it isn't really even correlated to system stress in Alberta)

The AESO's reserve margin includes all projects past a certain, but they obviously all won't be built. Right now on a gross (non-discounted) basis our reserve margin today is almost 70%. As you apply different weightings it goes down as low as 20%. (i forget the exact weightings the AESO uses in their reserve margin)

Alberta has been in a supply glut since the late 2000s and that isn't going to change anytime soon.

Coal retirements are required by federal legislation by the end of 2029; there's perfect transparency of the retirement of these legacy assets so developers will come and build in Alberta because that's their job (identify jurisdiction with potential to build a lot of MW and then build a lot of MW)

[dirtsniffer]

Put everything into Nat gas. Renewables are only driving costs up

[ShermanEF9]

P.S Can we get that nuclear reactor finally? Pretty please?? :(

It'll be the only way to satisfy the needs and wants of most Albertans.

[ThePenIsMightier]

Why is no one pushing the gasification of coal? We have an eternal supply of coal and if you gasify that and turn it into SynGas, you can burn SynGas in giant internal combustion engines connected to generators. Plus, you can run those engines at WAY under peak needs for the majority of the day and then crank them up as peak demand comes online.
It's clean. It keeps coal mining going and it meets all demand. Am I making too much sense?

[pheoxs]

Why is no one pushing the gasification of coal? We have an eternal supply of coal and if you gasify that and turn it into SynGas, you can burn SynGas in giant internal combustion engines connected to generators. Plus, you can run those engines at WAY under peak needs for the majority of the day and then crank them up as peak demand comes online.
It's clean. It keeps coal mining going and it meets all demand. Am I making too much sense?

Coal gasification produces more CO2 than a traditional coal plant

[ZenOps]

Alberta is just fine with generation. 3 cents per kwh offers for residential is pretty much the lowest in the world.

What we really need is more way to maximize utilization of heat production. Without doubt, putting a 1,500 watt AI node in every house would go a long way into making Canada a global leader in innovation AND you get the side benefit of residual "waste" heat.

Putting more money toward electrical grid expansion would probably be in order first before any new generation comes online anyhow. My first priority would be to push AI and expand and put more redundancies/backups into the grid (especially hardening against EMP pulses)

[HiTempguy1]

Please review the list of projects that will help us hit 70%

I wouldn't have expected you to come up with an argument that was meaningful in anyway.

Yes, our BASE MARGIN is expected to never be worse than 20% AND they are looking into allowing cogen operations to sell back onto the grid (don't know if that is a thing yet). So we are plenty good. Which I brought up in my statement.

What you just said was that Albertans were going to get reamed for a 70% overcapacity, and the NDP would have had us pay for all the idle plants. Fan-fucking-tastic.

You are delusional. There is no other way to put it when reality so clearly slaps you in the face and you don't even feel a breeze :nuts: Thank christ people with such an ideological myopia no longer are in charge, real adults with financial sense are now in control.

[ZenOps]

Its worth noting that you can't get a MC4 connector at a hardware store in Calgary. MC4 being the standard solar panel connector.

[ThePenIsMightier]

Coal gasification produces more CO2 than a traditional coal plant

I don't see how that's possible. Are we miscommunicating or is one of us talking out our ass? The coal is converted to SynGas as opposed to CO2 & water vapor.

Aside from that, the big driver to get away from coal has been more about actual pollution than CO2, hasn't it?

[pheoxs]

I don't see how that's possible. Are we miscommunicating or is one of us talking out our ass? The coal is converted to SynGas as opposed to CO2 & water vapor.

Aside from that, the big driver to get away from coal has been more about actual pollution than CO2, hasn't it?

Nope, the overall process produces more CO2. You gasify coal into syngas and then later burn syngas to generate electricity. The advantages are that you can separate the co2 between the stages and store it back underground. So its better for the air but it does net more CO2 overall in the end. Its only advantageous if you can store the CO2 underground to recapture it.

[Misterman]

Aside from that, the big driver to get away from coal has been more about actual pollution than CO2, hasn't it?

I'm not sure the left even knows what they're against. We used to be cooling, now we are apparently heating up, atmospheric carbon is majority made up from natural processes. This whole push to be "green" doesn't seem to be rooted in anything concrete.

[ThePenIsMightier]

Nope, the overall process produces more CO2. You gasify coal into syngas and then later burn syngas to generate electricity. The advantages are that you can separate the co2 between the stages and store it back underground. So its better for the air but it does net more CO2 overall in the end. Its only advantageous if you can store the CO2 underground to recapture it.

Oh ok. At first you only said "gasification" but now I see you mean that plus its combustion.
It's still virtually zero particulate emissions, SOx & NOx compared to just burning coal.

[M.alex]

Why is no one pushing the gasification of coal? We have an eternal supply of coal and if you gasify that and turn it into SynGas, you can burn SynGas in giant internal combustion engines connected to generators. Plus, you can run those engines at WAY under peak needs for the majority of the day and then crank them up as peak demand comes online.
It's clean. It keeps coal mining going and it meets all demand. Am I making too much sense?

because it's costly as fvck and not remotely economical to do

[ExtraSlow]

And we have unlimited methane already and near zero cost, so it's already cheaper than any possible gasified coal.

[ZenOps]

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-germany-energy/germany-to-increase-wind-and-solar-power-production-idUSKCN1NZ252

Germany, once the poster child for industrial revolution carbon burning has moved on to 35% renewable and on track for closer to two thirds by 2030. They have literally given up on black snow. If some sort of worldwide co-operation can be achieved in solar and wind installations, things could go much smoother. Sell and install wind and solar to countries that want it first, and then move onto the next. Like building fences, don't try and get everyone done at the same time, concentrate on one area - then move to the next.

Canada without doubt will be near the bottom, Hawaii @ 36 US cents per kwh near the top. The day that you can go into a Canadian Home Depot, ask for a MC4 - and the employee asks how many, instead of saying that they don't sell rap music - is probably the day.

[HiTempguy1]

And germany's electrical system is completely fucked and on the verge of blackouts, with the only thing saving them being FRaNCES NUCLEAR powerplants.

[Xtrema]

And germany's electrical system is completely fucked and on the verge of blackouts, with the only thing saving them being FRaNCES NUCLEAR powerplants.

Source?

I think Germany getting out of Nuclear energy is stupid and they do have problem with grid at places where there is SPOF.

But it's not different than the overhead powerlines for a lot of NA cities.

Also they are embracing home energy storage to deal with the duck curve of solar.
https://e360.yale.edu/features/in-germany-consumers-embrace-a-shift-to-home-batteries

If I were Germany, I won't take Nuclear offline until more batteries are in place.

[HiTempguy1]

Source?


https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-02-22/merkel-s-government-looks-abroad-to-keep-germany-s-lights-on

Can't accuse me of bias, or it not being recent enough, its god damn Bloomberg. Hilariously enough, it was a fight to find this article as no one is reporting on the actual facts of the situation :rofl:

Edit-
And with the EU so interconnected, one partner having a problem causes issues for others. And German electricity is the MOST EXPENSIVE IN EUROPE! :rofl:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-11-08/solving-belgian-blackout-woes-sparks-german-angst-over-the-bill

[ZenOps]

Germany isn't doing it because its easy. They are doing it because its hard.

S4O5voOCqAQ

[Xtrema]

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-02-22/merkel-s-government-looks-abroad-to-keep-germany-s-lights-on

Can't accuse me of bias, or it not being recent enough, its god damn Bloomberg. Hilariously enough, it was a fight to find this article as no one is reporting on the actual facts of the situation :rofl:

Edit-
And with the EU so interconnected, one partner having a problem causes issues for others. And German electricity is the MOST EXPENSIVE IN EUROPE! :rofl:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-11-08/solving-belgian-blackout-woes-sparks-german-angst-over-the-bill

Well like I said, ending Nuclear is stupid. Doing it while winding down coal is suicide.

[HiTempguy1]

Well like I said, ending Nuclear is stupid. Doing it while winding down coal is suicide.

Maybe we can be on the same page for once. I absolutely support renewables. I do not support renewable subsidies (I do support renewable research to get pricing to be comparative to non-renewable).

[04Terminator]

And germany's electrical system is completely fucked and on the verge of blackouts, with the only thing saving them being FRaNCES NUCLEAR powerplants.

The Blomberg article doesn't say that though. They are claiming massive surpluses, and they are preparing for and anticipating possible increases in their extremely rare blackouts.

Their alternative energy program is an extremely successful endeavor. So far.

[ThePenIsMightier]

Well like I said, ending Nuclear is stupid. Doing it while winding down coal is suicide.

And doing those things while pumping up Electric Vehicles as "the only future" is a bucket of steaming insanity.

[ZenOps]

There is no question that green power generation makes sense in many places. All islands around the world that do not have a carbon deposit to start with and have money to spare (Most definitely not Guam) The USA without doubt is going bankrupt almost entirely from decades of maintaining diesel warships that station on islands that have no means of energy production.

Then again, it is to Albertas benefit that they are maintaining a diesel fleet that consumes more than two Canada's combined. Pushing a 100,000 ton vehicle through the water consumes a ridiculous amount of fuel every second. The US went nuclear(electrical) on some larger ships because its literally too expensive to use carbon based fuel.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_aircraft_carriers_in_service

That being said, you can only go to around $300 million for a yacht because the ports that they dock at (and the Panama canal) are only "so" large. I mean, you can buy a million dollar car, but it still has to fit in a parking spot and take one lane on the highway.

For as long as the USA continues to ask for carbon, we actually have an obligation to keep pumping it to them. The USA is literally living on carbon, but Germany is diversifying away from it.

[ZenOps]

https://www.latimes.com/world/asia/la-fg-china-solar-theft-20180109-story.html

China did try a solar roadway a while ago. $42.50 per square foot, and it failed - still a decent attempt compared to trying to land a rover on the moon IMO.

[ZenOps]

Also of note: Storing electrical energy inside lithium batteries actually has a physical energy storage density of 10x less than TNT (dynamite). Its also worthy of note that human fat is approximately 10x more energy dense than TNT.

If you could make a battery out of human belly fat, it would literally have 100x more energy density per kilogram, than lithium-ion. I'm not exactly sure why scientists tend to gloss over this fact - maybe it makes people uneasy.

Fatties all!

[Misterman]

Also of note: Storing electrical energy inside lithium batteries actually has a physical energy storage density of 10x less than TNT (dynamite). Its also worthy of note that human fat is approximately 10x more energy dense than TNT.

If you could make a battery out of human belly fat, it would literally have 100x more energy density per kilogram, than lithium-ion. I'm not exactly sure why scientists tend to gloss over this fact - maybe it makes people uneasy.

Fatties all!

I'm guessing it's the physical laws of magnetism and electricity that prevent them from going down the human fat battery road. More so than their glossy thought process anyway.

[JustinL]

Also of note: Storing electrical energy inside lithium batteries actually has a physical energy storage density of 10x less than TNT (dynamite). Its also worthy of note that human fat is approximately 10x more energy dense than TNT.

If you could make a battery out of human belly fat, it would literally have 100x more energy density per kilogram, than lithium-ion. I'm not exactly sure why scientists tend to gloss over this fact - maybe it makes people uneasy.

Fatties all!

Your numbers are hilariously wrong. There are 14,644 joules in one pound of fat. In one gram of TNT there are 4184 joules. One pound of lithium ion battery is about 160,000 joules.

[suntan]

The Blomberg article doesn't say that though. They are claiming massive surpluses, and they are preparing for and anticipating possible increases in their extremely rare blackouts.

Their alternative energy program is an extremely successful endeavor. So far.

Lolwut? Germany had to build a coal plant because their renewable program doesn't work.

[msommers]

Germany's emissions are ridiculous because of their anthracite and lignite. I think it's something like 1/3 of all of Germany's electricity generation comes from burning that shit.

Around 2007(?) the USA using coal for electricity generation dropped off when switching a bunch of plants to natural gas, and their emissions have dropped off steadily as a result. Interestingly this was an issue with the Paris Agreement, in that they didn't need the P/A to reach their targets because switching to Nat Gas was making that happen anyways (and they don't need to import Nat Gas as they have loads).

Using coal is just stupid in this day and age, especially when we have a shitload of NatGas available worldwide.

[04Terminator]

Lolwut? Germany had to build a coal plant because their renewable program doesn't work.

It's too early for meth, idiot.

- - - Updated - - -


Also of note: Storing electrical energy inside lithium batteries actually has a physical energy storage density of 10x less than TNT (dynamite). Its also worthy of note that human fat is approximately 10x more energy dense than TNT.

If you could make a battery out of human belly fat, it would literally have 100x more energy density per kilogram, than lithium-ion. I'm not exactly sure why scientists tend to gloss over this fact - maybe it makes people uneasy.

Fatties all!

What's pretty cool is England's largest storage battery is a lake.

[04Terminator]

Germany's emissions are ridiculous because of their anthracite and lignite. I think it's something like 1/3 of all of Germany's electricity generation comes from burning that shit.

.
So if German emissions, using c02 as a baseline, of 8.93 tonnes per person is ridiculous, then what do you consider Canada's at 16 tonnes per person?

[dirtsniffer]

Germany's emission intensity is 2,230 t of CO2 / square km
Canada's is 62 t of CO2 / square km

When you consider that CO2 concentration is the cause of the warming, and not the number of people in a contry it is clear to see that germany is having a significantly higher impact on global warming.

[HiTempguy1]

So if German emissions, using c02 as a baseline, of 8.93 tonnes per person is ridiculous, then what do you consider Canada's at 16 tonnes per person?

I consider it that its below -5*c for 6 months of the year. Germany average winter temp hits a LOW of 0*c in December, whereas at one point Alberta had an average temp of -20*c this year, and energy use is exponential with temperature drop.

Even a liberal arts degree holder like yourself can see the simple math dictating we will use more energy.

[04Terminator]

I consider it that its below -5*c for 6 months of the year. Germany average winter temp hits a LOW of 0*c in December, whereas at one point Alberta had an average temp of -20*c this year, and energy use is exponential with temperature drop.

Even a liberal arts degree holder like yourself can see the simple math dictating we will use more energy.

I'm an engineer with an MBA, but hey, good on you for knowing higher education exists.

[dirtsniffer]

..Even a liberal arts degree holder like yourself ....


I'm an engineer with an MBA...


Not sure what's worse.

[suntan]

It's too early for meth, idiot.
Shove a knife up your ass, fuck face.

Clearly stabbing yourself in the head won't do anything, because there's nothing functioning up there.

Here's one they built in 2013, you brainless dipshit. There's even newer ones that have come online.

https://www.powermag.com/trianel-coal-power-plant-lnen-north-rhine-westphalia-germany/

You go find them, "engineer with an MBA".

All that motherfucking education, and you can't see past the green propaganda.

[ZenOps]

I'm going to go on a small bit of crazy but:

Technically, Canada could build a border wall (fence) at the 49th parallel and have it lined with silicon solar cells lined up completely vertically (little maintenance or snow removal.) In my mind, it is definitely doable assuming the price of silicon ingots/other manufacture (sand, of which there is trillions of tons on the earth) comes down in price.

Don't say it isn't doable, because the railroads (steel, across the entire nation) is arguably 10x more difficult than building a solar fence across the nation.

https://www.popsci.com/border-wall-solar-panels

I completely disagree with Popular Science. Trumps "Solar wall" is not entirely a bad idea... I endorse it.

[Misterman]

Not sure what's worse.

At least with a liberal arts degree everyone would already expect him to be wrong about everything. Now he has no excuse.

[bjstare]

I'm an engineer with an MBA

I highly doubt that.

[04Terminator]

Shove a knife up your ass, fuck face.

Clearly stabbing yourself in the head won't do anything, because there's nothing functioning up there.

Here's one they built in 2013, you brainless dipshit. There's even newer ones that have come online.

https://www.powermag.com/trianel-coal-power-plant-lnen-north-rhine-westphalia-germany/

You go find them, "engineer with an MBA".

All that motherfucking education, and you can't see past the green propaganda.

They've actively been shutting then down as alternative capacity has exploded. They missed their 40% reduction target, but managed 32%. They are doing extremely well. They have a target of shutting down all coal by 2038. These discussions are best left to people capable of rational thought.

[04Terminator]

I'm going to go on a small bit of crazy but:

Technically, Canada could build a border wall (fence) at the 49th parallel and have it lined with silicon solar cells lined up completely vertically (little maintenance or snow removal.) In my mind, it is definitely doable assuming the price of silicon ingots/other manufacture (sand, of which there is trillions of tons on the earth) comes down in price.

Don't say it isn't doable, because the railroads (steel, across the entire nation) is arguably 10x more difficult than building a solar fence across the nation.

https://www.popsci.com/border-wall-solar-panels

I completely disagree with Popular Science. Trumps "Solar wall" is not entirely a bad idea... I endorse it.

I'd agree, but the railroad was slave labour, I doubt we can get away with that again.

[msommers]

So if German emissions, using c02 as a baseline, of 8.93 tonnes per person is ridiculous, then what do you consider Canada's at 16 tonnes per person?

I still consider it shit. But when you look at emissions you have to look at more than CO2 wrt to total impact. This is why coal is much worse than natural gas.

[04Terminator]

Absolutely, I was just using Co2 as a rough correlation.

Toronto has the third highest respiratory illness rate in the world that is due to particulate emissions from vehicles.

That's why Germany's huge reduction while its population has exploded is so admirable.

[dirtsniffer]

I highly doubt that. source?

[JRSC00LUDE]

I'd agree, but the railroad was slave labour, I doubt we can get away with that again.

Wait, don't you drive a train in your day job? I can only assume that's what kind of Engineer you are based on your posts and how you treat people. Take a chill pill Casey Jones.

[ExtraSlow]

Please don't insult train drivers.

[HiTempguy1]

Not sure what's worse.

I wasn't going to go there :rofl:

[msommers]

Absolutely, I was just using Co2 as a rough correlation.

Toronto has the third highest respiratory illness rate in the world that is due to particulate emissions from vehicles.

That's why Germany's huge reduction while its population has exploded is so admirable.

Alberta as a whole has an abnormal rate of Crohn's and Ulcerative Colitis in contrast to the rest of the world, which might be from air pollution and maybe our beef (strong correlations at this point). From an interesting talk by GI specialists from Foothills at the CPL a few months ago. Something is messed up in Alberta specifically, as immigrants who were developing the symptoms would go back to their home country several months later and symptoms would dissipate.

But essentially, coal bad, Germany won't quite because their economy relies a lot on it, and global emissions won't drop much unless China gets their shit sorted out. Alberta should have no electrical generation from coal, especially given our immediate access to Nat Gas.

[ZenOps]

I'd agree, but the railroad was slave labour, I doubt we can get away with that again.

Well… Realistically people have to work at something. I mean, you could pay people $100 million dollars to put a 50 kilogram rover on the moon that works for two days, or you could build a 50 mile section of wall that has solar panels on top. Would it take slave labour? No, as long as you actually pay people a wage of some sort - you will get plenty of people willing to build it. I mean, you could technically call a 50 kilogram moon rover slave labour if you didn't pay them (millennial internship programme, unpaid work required to join the space force.)

Its really just a matter of dollar and current perception: Is lobster "prison food that is cruel and unusual punishment"? Is a trip to mars, the worst punishment humanly imagineable?

LfrlfYQw_d4 I like Elon (and you do have to bring in Elon if you talk electricity) but his views on Mars exploration are pretty out there. And if you do pay $100 million to smash a rover into the moon, is that ultimately defeating when other nations actually spend money on projects with real tangible benefits? Personally I think there are many made in USA projects giving "money for nothing" which is great for a white male - for a while.. But ultimately you lose out on the benefits of "real" achievements and tangible growth.

[ZenOps]

YYLzss58CLs

[04Terminator]

YYLzss58CLs

mmrwdTGZxGk

[ZenOps]

The concrete idea does have merit, but its already been expanded upon. Simply build a "flower" of iron pilings that are attached at the ground on a hinge pivot. During oversupply, slowly lift the pilings from horizontal to vertical. Once standing, attach to a center "holding pin" to keep upright. Lift next iron as needed. When power is required, simply unpin and slowly drop the iron (generators will be underneath, and possibly spring or adjustable loaded) or use the crane as a reverse generator on fall.

My suggestion would be to not use a flower, but a dual hinge tower drop design. Lift two iron pilings from opposite sides to minimize internal stresses, when at vertical pin or cable the two irons to each other. Heck, you might even be able to get away with a half ton Boron neodymium magnet.

Drop two at a time in same manner, unpin and generate. Before the two have dropped completely, have an extra set of arms to start dropping the next two iron (four arms, and four generators minimum). Have all of this on a straight rail track, with a specialized vehicle that moves along a track with say, 100 hinged pilings on each side, if oversupply is larger, simply have more track and use more pilings (or bigger ones, whatever)

[Disoblige]

Update: Capacity market by 2021 cancelled. We are staying as an energy-only market.

https://www.alberta.ca/release.cfm?xID=642387D0ECA3E-ED8E-6B02-885D35312EBBB3EE

[Xtrema]

Update: Capacity market by 2021 cancelled. We are staying as an energy-only market.

https://www.alberta.ca/release.cfm?xID=642387D0ECA3E-ED8E-6B02-885D35312EBBB3EE

6.8c cap is also gone. Electricity will be charged based on what market will bear again.

[16hypen3sp]

6.8c cap is also gone. Electricity will be charged based on what market will bear again.

Was there ever a time in the last few years where the price hit the cap? Always seemed to be cheaper.

[Xtrema]

Was there ever a time in the last few years where the price hit the cap? Always seemed to be cheaper.

Answer is yes if you are not on contract. We are enjoying price cap this month.

http://www.auc.ab.ca/Pages/current-rates-electric.aspx

Now. you can also say that electricity price has gone up due to the market condition created by NDP. But I have not read anything from UCP to undo those investments so who knows when/if it will come back down.

[16hypen3sp]

^ Interesting. Thanks for posting that.

[pheoxs]

Atco 3 cent rate FTW right now

[jaeden]

Atco 3 cent rate FTW right now

:thumbsup:

I've been able to stop bitching when my wife keeps turning the AC temp lower....

[M.alex]

6.8c cap is also gone. Electricity will be charged based on what market will bear again.

6.8 RRO cap is still here, it's being investigated



Answer is yes if you are not on contract. We are enjoying price cap this month.

http://www.auc.ab.ca/Pages/current-rates-electric.aspx

Now. you can also say that electricity price has gone up due to the market condition created by NDP. But I have not read anything from UCP to undo those investments so who knows when/if it will come back down.

electricity prices went up because the NDP shouldered billions of dollars of losses from the Balancing Pool's operations that now have to be repaid over the next 10 years.

deregulated electricity prices arn't why your bill is so high, it's the regulated delivery charges ($20 for power, $150 for delivery :nut: )

[Tik-Tok]

Atco 3 cent rate FTW right now

Seriously. So glad I jumped on that deal. I don't care how much more Nat.Gas is, the electricity savings is doing nothing but going up.

[ExtraSlow]

This doesn't really fit here but I don't want to make a new thread. Suncor building big new natural gas fired cogen plants at thier mine near Fort Mac that will export electricity to the grid. Article says ~8% of provinces use.
Burning more methane sounds good to me!
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/suncor-power-plant-cogeneration-oilsands-fort-mcmurray-1.5277056

[ExtraSlow]

More changes to the Alberta electricity market. Something about the balancing pool. I again got confused. Eli5 pls okthxbye
https://beta.ctvnews.ca/local/edmonton/2022/4/21/1_5871108.amp.html

[Tik-Tok]

. Eli5 pls okthxbye


Our bills are about to get higher.

[ExtraSlow]

Higherer than they were already going to go to?

[LilDrunkenSmurf]

Higherer than they were already going to go to?

From what I've been told, yes. Something to the tune of 1.5bil or something?

[zechs]

This is a situation where everyone has mud on their faces. It was a bad, shitty deal and never should have been instituted, and never should have been kept around.

A lot of people think because of this, that reregulating and making the electricity market solely crown corporations would be better. Trying to explain to them these higher prices are the chickens coming home to roost falls on deaf ears.

People have a hard time grasping that privatization doesn't happen at the snap of the fingers, it takes decades to get all the regulatory crap out. Look at Air Canada FFS.

[pheoxs]

This bit seems interesting:


A PROPER AUDIT?Deloitte, the independent firm hired by the province to complete the audit, was instructed by the province to examine from May 2015 to April 2019, with that period specifically "requested."
"It is interesting or odd to me that the calculation of that," Schaffer said. "(It) was specifically done to end part way through 2019.
"The balancing pool existed and managed the PPAs until the end of 2020," the economist added. "And prices were higher in 2019, in 2020, than they were previously. So if they switched to profitability that point was excluded in the calculation?
"So in my view, if they were doing a proper audit on the balancing pool's losses they should've done the full term,"

[kertejud2]

This bit seems interesting:

Finding a way to ensure more profit for cronies while having the public blame the NDP for the increased costs they're incurring because of it is probably the most shrewd political move the UCP has done.