Home entertainment system build recommendations

[shakalaka]

So I am trying to decide between one of these two options but not knowing anything about the audio/video world, I have no idea which setup is better to go with. They are costing more or less the same. Please don't suggest mix and match or some other third party items as these are sort of a bundle packages I am looking at and being offered by a couple of different companies.

Option 1:

Da-lite contour HD 4K 160" perforated hi-def screen
Optoma uhd50
Denon 2600H 7.2 amplifier
Omage L-C-R
Omage rears
Polk subwoofer
Harmony remote

Option 2:

Ultrahigh fidelity 160" acoustically transparent screen
Optoma uhd50
Onkoyo Tx-SR393 surround sound receiver
KEF ICF6560W in-wall L-C-R
KEF ICF6560W in-ceiling deft surround and right surround
Klipsch SPL100NAB sub
Logitech Apple or Android remote control app with companion hardware remote

[Buster]

you have the right setup for an acoustically transparent screen?

[shakalaka]

I don't know what any of this shit means. I just wrote out how the items are worded in the quotes.

[nissanK]

The first question for the projector/screen combination is what is the ambient light in the room? Will it be installed in a room with a lot of windows/sunlight? Is the screen going on a wall with pot lights above it?

In the quotes you were provided, did they give you the EXACT projector screen model #'s? This will show the screen materials detailing the GAIN, VIEWING ANGLE, Ambient light rejection (if any), etc....

The projector spec's show it's 2400 lumens which is ok, but again it depends on the room conditions of it's being installed.


EDIT: Quick readup on screen GAIN: https://www.projectorsourcecanada.ca/resource/41/INFORMATION%20ABOUT%20SCREEN%20GAIN.html

[shakalaka]

The first question for the projector/screen combination is what is the ambient light in the room? Will it be installed in a room with a lot of windows/sunlight? Is the screen going on a wall with pot lights above it?

In the quotes you were provided, did they give you the EXACT projector screen model #'s? This will show the screen materials detailing the GAIN, VIEWING ANGLE, Ambient light rejection (if any), etc....

The projector spec's show it's 2400 lumens which is ok, but again it depends on the room conditions of it's being installed.


EDIT: Quick readup on screen GAIN: https://www.projectorsourcecanada.ca/resource/41/INFORMATION%20ABOUT%20SCREEN%20GAIN.html

Thanks I will read up on it. To answer your questions, there will be no windows in the room. It'll be just a regularly lit basement open area - there can be pot lights a few feet before the screen itself on the ceiling but doesn't have to. They didn't give any more info that what I wrote out. The second quote doesn't even itemize the pricing individually - I can see in the first one that the screen on its own is listed at $5K.

[nissanK]

I assume this is new construction? Are you putting the package in-wall speakers right behind the screen?

If not, the acoustically transparent screen is not needed.

https://thehometheaterdiy.com/acoustically-transparent-screen/


EDIT: Option 2 will be a cleaner installation as the speakers will all be installed within the wall and ceilings. BUUUUT you will need to ensure when building the wall space you are leaving enough space for the speakers to have airspace to properly operate.

[shakalaka]

I assume this is new construction? Are you putting the package in-wall speakers right behind the screen?

If not, the acoustically transparent screen is not needed.

https://thehometheaterdiy.com/acoustically-transparent-screen/


EDIT: Option 2 will be a cleaner installation as the speakers will all be installed within the wall and ceilings. BUUUUT you will need to ensure when building the wall space you are leaving enough space for the speakers to have airspace to properly operate.

Yes new construction. So in both of these scenarios the speakers are going to be in the wall behind the screen and in the ceiling. I guess the first option just doesn't mention that but that is the idea behind both of these options.

Any thoughts on the receivers that each option uses? Just Googling them shows that one is worth around $500 and the other $1200 and one is 7.2 and the other is 5.2 channel. Not sure if that matters.

[killramos]

7.2 and 5.2 channel is pretty weak these days.

[revelations]

The most immediate question is - what is it going to be used for? Gaming? Movies? TV?

Also, there is a fuck ton of optimizing the setup even after its installed - does the contractor do this? (eg. 2 weeks later)

Also, with our setup I installed a Class II (whole house) surge protector on the panel. Nothing like spending nuts $$ on A/V and then frying it next week with a transient electrical charge.

Are you super picky about audio? 3 dimensional audio is going to become as wanted as 7.1 - was a few years ago - and that means a lot more speakers.

[shakalaka]

Hmm well I just wanted something for movies/tv/youtube for the most part. Perhaps occasional gaming wouldn't hurt and I plan to connect my PS4 to the system. But I am not much of a gamer and only ever play when some title I really want to play comes out. For audio - just a nice surround sound system is what I am after. I don't need to vibrate the walls or blow up people's ear drums or anything like that. Big thing is I want everything to be clean and no shit tons of wires and cables running around so that's why option for in-built behind the screen set up.

I will ask the guys about the surge protectors and their thoughts or I can talk to my electrician about that.

One of the guys' quote says calibration is included - although I am not sure if that is something that is done 2 weeks later or what. But either way both of these people have done work for me in the past and will likely continue to do so on other projects so I am sure if I called them in a few weeks for whatever reason, they'd happily swing by. I guess what my main concern right now is how the speakers/subwoofer/receiver being offered in each package compares to the other in terms of the brand, quality etc. Also the screen itself. Since the projector itself is the same that's not a big concern.

[revelations]

OK I get the type you are then - you have a very nice place (setup the way you want) and you are willing to trade off some performance for aesthetics - where as some clients (like me) build a room to specifically optimize/maximize the Audio/Visual experience.

For you this means minimal lines, cables and components. The KEF in-wall speakers for eg. are very nice. You could do with just a hidden sound bar and some wireless speakers combined with ceiling speakers. Minimal visual intrusion. Option 2 is my suggestion.

5.1 vs 7.2 (need 2 subs for 7.2) isnt probably a big concern to you in terms of sound.

Also ask your guy if he could find you a LOW PROFILE sub (instead of a giant box). I know its mix and matching but it would help with aesthetics: for eg. https://www.htd.com/Sub-80LP


The nice thing about the Class II protector (there also are surge protectors installed before the meter too, but they are much more pricey) is that it also protects your fridges and washer/dryer (the control side of a dryer is 120) and microwaves too.

[shakalaka]

I messaged the guy asking about the specific model numbers for speakers and all that. Let's see if that helps. I know Polk is good but never heard of Omage speakers. But I had also never heard of Kef and Klipsch until now so there's that.

My big concerns is the difference in two receivers. Since both quotes are more or less on par, I am not sure how one uses a $1200 7.2 channel receiver and the other a under $500 5.2 channel. So presumably the 7.2 options is saving costs elsewhere? I just don't know what it is - is it bad quality speakers, sub etc. I was also leaning towards option 2 but mostly because I spoke with that individual first, but then I noticed the price difference in the two receivers that are being included.

I am also building a golf simulator room and have no knowledge on how to set that up and still looking for companies that can tell me about it. If anyone has any knowledge on that please drop me a message and I'd like to pick your brain.

Electrical panel is already in so a pre-electrical panel surge protector won't be an option but I will chat with my electrician re: options available now.

[Buster]

I wouldn't bother with a surge suppressor, UPS, or power conditioner.

Speakers behind an acoustically transparent screen are actually quite nice in terms of localizing the sound to the content.

[cyra1ax]

7.2 and 5.2 channel is pretty weak these days.

This. 5.1.2 or 7.1.2 is where it's at for normals, 5.2.2 or 7.2.2 for the ballers.

[revelations]

I wouldn't bother with a surge suppressor, UPS, or power conditioner.



I definitely would here in Calgary. I've replaced enough devices and UPS' after a nearby strike to know.

[Buster]

I definitely would here in Calgary. I've replaced enough devices and UPS' after a nearby strike to know.

a "nearby" strike is blowing your shit up regardless of what you put in your house.

[killramos]

Make sure your receiver is able to decode Atmos and DTS:X spatial audio signals. Even if you don't put the extra channels in the spacial audio sounds unreal, even with the same speakers my Marantz receiver made a huge difference on content with atmos.

I have a whole home surge protector after my last tv was friend. No issues since. Hard to say if it works or not but it was cheap ( my brother is an electrician so install was free and parts wholesale ) insurance.

[revelations]

a "nearby" strike is blowing your shit up regardless of what you put in your house.

Thats not what I meant - if you get your home struck directly, all bets are off. Even with the best possible surge protection the EMP will hit all components anyway.

If you get a strike in your neighbourhood, the UPS and surge suppressors can definitely help. I have seen this with my clients over and over again.

The effects are also cumulative. Enough low-level strikes nearby can also degrade equipment. Thats where a UPS/surge device comes in.

[Asian_defender]

Those quotes dont make sense to me.
Personally I'd take the first option. I have an in wall setup in my basement and a tower set in my bonus room and I much prefer the tower set. Both are 5.2.2
Dont know much about those particular towers but I doubt the in walls are going to be better acoustically

[Mitsu3000gt]

Curious as to the exact model numbers - really difficult to give any recommendations with such little info.

That projector is very average, and it would be one of my last choices to light up a 160" screen, especially if you aren't in a velvet-lined bat cave. You lose even more light using an acoustically transparent screen to boot. Calibrated, the UHD50 puts out less than half it's advertised lumens in most picture modes, and that is with no zoom. Input lag is also high which is a concern as you said you want to game on it, and HDR performance is sub-par with its low dynamic range. For 4KHDR you're only going to see about 80% of the P3 color gamut. Look at something like the Epson 4010 in that price range or a refurbished Epson 5040UB ($1497) which is an absolutely phenomenal deal and will blow the Optoma out of the water.

Did your installer check if you are sensitive to the rainbow effect before they spec'd you a DLP projector? Did they tell you that projector uses the old 0.47" DLP chip which means you will have a permanent black boarder around your entire viewing area that you will need to hide with a very thick screen boarder? (more than 5").

What is the exact distance the projector will be from the screen? That is really important.

The sub (especially if just one) will probably be too weak for your room if this is a large-ish HT room as I am not aware of any subs made by Polk that are very good. How big is your room? Most people don't have nearly enough sub in their HT setups.

Make sure you aren't paying any more then Monoprice / Primecables / Amazon pricing for your cables & wires, or get them yourself - that is one area your installer will try to bone you with 1000% markup. Run opti-HDMI to your projector if you can.

As always, room treatments and calibration are going to make a bigger difference than almost anything else as long as you have decent equipment.

Stick with the Denon 2600H - it's a better unit than that Onkyo and room correction is better, which is probably one of the easiest things to appreciate even if you aren't an enthusiast.

How much are the quotes? Pretty shady that you are being quoted stuff and they aren't even telling you what you're getting (model numbers, screen gain, screen material, etc.) - that is a big red flag for me right off the bat. Also if they're telling you calibration is included, find out if they are just going to run the Audyssey on that receiver for you (which you can do yourself in 5 minutes) or if they are bringing in a proper ISF certified calibrator to calibrate your projector as well - the latter is worth something, the former is not.

[killramos]

To be fair I feel like the people hiring these contractors to setup a home theatre for them don’t care about things like model numbers. What you are paying for is Price Points and Pro Con lists, not to vette the details and specs.

[Mitsu3000gt]

To be fair I feel like the people hiring these contractors to setup a home theatre for them don’t care about things like model numbers. What you are paying for is Price Points and Pro Con lists, not to vette the details and specs.

Those unimportant model numbers might mean he is getting sold something that he literally cannot even use....so I disagree.

[revelations]

I messaged the guy asking about the specific model numbers for speakers and all that. Let's see if that helps. I know Polk is good but never heard of Omage speakers. But I had also never heard of Kef and Klipsch until now so there's that.

My big concerns is the difference in two receivers. Since both quotes are more or less on par, I am not sure how one uses a $1200 7.2 channel receiver and the other a under $500 5.2 channel. So presumably the 7.2 options is saving costs elsewhere? I just don't know what it is - is it bad quality speakers, sub etc. I was also leaning towards option 2 but mostly because I spoke with that individual first, but then I noticed the price difference in the two receivers that are being included.




Receivers vary widely in price and performance. You can get a very good 5.1 and a average 7.2 unit.

But as far as speakers, the Omage have a good performance to price as they are relatively unknown in AV circles whereas the KEF units are very well received. You are saving $$$ by going with Omage allowing for $$$ to be spent elsewhere.

[shakalaka]

Thanks for the input guys. Definitely a lot to get from it. While I am not a huge enthusiast, I certainly care where my $ is going which is why I made the post to begin with. I have contacted the first quote guy to give me specific model numbers of the speakers and all that.

I will check with them about the projector not being good enough and ask about other options that Mitsu mentioned which sound to be in the similar price point anyway. Once I hear back I will post. The price point for both these options is around the same of $10K (installed and all that).

[Mitsu3000gt]

I assume this is too late, but just in case you are still waiting on model numbers from your installer, I was at my preferred custom HT install shop on the weekend getting quotes for my next project. While I was there, I asked them why they don't sell Optoma, and they went into great detail about all the issues they have had with them over the years, and the subsequent lack of support from Optoma when something does go wrong. He told me about how the Optoma rep. keeps trying to get them onboard again, and he won't because they lose customers when Optoma refuses to replace defective units. They have one customer who has had his Optoma projector sent away 14 times for repair (waiting weeks + shipping money each time) and Optoma won't even replace it. With Epson (the only PJ brand they still sell due to the level of dealer support), you get a replacement (or upgrade) no questions asked - sometimes even outside warranty. If you have so much as a spec of dust on the LCD panels, they replace the entire unit at no cost to you. So on top of being the better projector from a performance perspective, you don't have to worry about anything else on the service/reliability side. Just something to think about.

[shakalaka]

I assume this is too late, but just in case you are still waiting on model numbers from your installer, I was at my preferred custom HT install shop on the weekend getting quotes for my next project. While I was there, I asked them why they don't sell Optoma, and they went into great detail about all the issues they have had with them over the years, and the subsequent lack of support from Optoma when something does go wrong. He told me about how the Optoma rep. keeps trying to get them onboard again, and he won't because they lose customers when Optoma refuses to replace defective units. They have one customer who has had his Optoma projector sent away 14 times for repair (waiting weeks + shipping money each time) and Optoma won't even replace it. With Epson (the only PJ brand they still sell due to the level of dealer support), you get a replacement (or upgrade) no questions asked - sometimes even outside warranty. If you have so much as a spec of dust on the LCD panels, they replace the entire unit at no cost to you. So on top of being the better projector from a performance perspective, you don't have to worry about anything else on the service/reliability side. Just something to think about.

Definitely worth keeping in mind, thanks for pointing it out. I am actually meeting with the guy tomorrow on site as the basement has just finished framing. I will bring up the Optoma projector issues and ask what alternatives he may be able to offer. For the speakers it is the JBL in wall speakers behind the screen which he says are on par in terms of quality with KEF and other high-end speakers but just a slightly older model and Omage in-cieling speakers I believe. I will clarify all that with him tomorrow as well. Between Omage rears (in wall) and JBL's which ones would be the better option in terms of quality etc? I am thinking of telling him to just do all Omage since the ceiling ones are going to be them anyway. If there is a better brand out there (KEF?) I can check with him on that as well. Thanks.

[Asian_defender]

KEF in ceilings if you can, Paradigm also does really good in ceilings but are pricey IMO.
Best bang for the buck is still the monoprice calibers. Awesome value for the money, installed these for my parents and was very impressed
https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=7605

[Mitsu3000gt]

Definitely worth keeping in mind, thanks for pointing it out. I am actually meeting with the guy tomorrow on site as the basement has just finished framing. I will bring up the Optoma projector issues and ask what alternatives he may be able to offer. For the speakers it is the JBL in wall speakers behind the screen which he says are on par in terms of quality with KEF and other high-end speakers but just a slightly older model and Omage in-cieling speakers I believe. I will clarify all that with him tomorrow as well. Between Omage rears (in wall) and JBL's which ones would be the better option in terms of quality etc? I am thinking of telling him to just do all Omage since the ceiling ones are going to be them anyway. If there is a better brand out there (KEF?) I can check with him on that as well. Thanks.

I'd need exact model numbers to offer more meaningful input on the speakers.

If it's not too late to potentially change contractors, give BASE Electronics a call. They are the best in town IMHO and I buy all my HT gear from them. They have some very high profile customers as well. They also do free in-home consults if you just want another data point. Customer service is their priority, and they only carry products that they can get swapped out for you instantly if you ever have an issue down the road - at the end of the day that's what you want IMO.

What are they charging you for that screen? There is HUGE margin on screens and it's pretty easy to get them 40-50% off. I suspect you can save a good chunk of money there. Again, at 160" I would not be using a Optoma UHD50 as you need something that is very bright to fill that much screen real estate (especially if you ever watch HDR or 3D content), and especially if the projector isn't being mounted as close as possible to the screen. On top of all that, you pay a light penalty with acoustically transparent (perforated) screens. Also at that size, and with the older DLP chip in that specific projector, remember that it is going to over shoot by 5-6"+ (4.5% of image width) with a black (but lit) boarder, and it's going to be noticeable depending on the size of the screen frame. If you have a white wall behind that screen and the velvet screen frames aren't massive, that is going to look bad. If they aren't even telling you about these things, that is a big red flag in my opinion. Optoma also has one of the shortest warranties in the industry at 1 year.

I'd also look into getting some or all your cables from Monoproce or Primecables or similar to avoid paying the 1000% markup.

Also I'd like to add, I am not trying to be rude or anything - I just don't want to see you get screwed in a business where it's so easy to be taken advantage of.

[shakalaka]

Not sure how I missed this post above but to give an update. Now that the house is nearing completing we are that point where all this stuff will be going in a couple of weeks time.

The screen that the contractor had quoted me was just $5000 on its own. I did some research and asked around and found out screens can be custom ordered from this site in China and I ended up ordering what I needed for $1000US. So I have that sitting.

That got me thinking what if the prices of the receiver and projector he's charging me are crazy too - so I looked up and the receiver can be had for $100 cheaper online (Denon 2600H) and the projector for about $300-$400 (Optoma UHD50). Since I saved a bit on the screen I want to make sure I get decent quality other stuff like the receiver and the projector.
Mitsu3000gt you mentioned above that the receiver is fine so I can stick to that, unless you think there's something better that's not ridiculously more expensive. In terms of the projector then what would you recommend I look at?

For speakers I was thinking of sticking with whatever he is offering as he's done the rough ins into the walls etc already (not sure if that is speaker specific or anything) but they are Omage L-C-R IW8 and JBL Soundpoint SPC11 with Polk sub PSW110. If these are good enough then I won't bother looking into these as well.

[revelations]

As far as speakers, no its just analog cable. Nothing specific. You want ones that integrate best with the environment (rather than the purest/cleanest sound possible).

Also the sub, you did not want to go low profile? Thats just your run of the mill box.

[shakalaka]

As far as speakers, no its just analog cable. Nothing specific. You want ones that integrate best with the environment (rather than the purest/cleanest sound possible).

Also the sub, you did not want to go low profile? Thats just your run of the mill box.

What's a low profile sub?

[revelations]

What's a low profile sub?

Something you can hide.

Im NOT saying get this one - but just to show you an example:

https://www.amazon.ca/Monoprice-135847-Ssw-12-Powered-Subwoofer/dp/B07R6Y66QZ/ref=sr_1_7?crid=1WHPMULFNGS2M&keywords=low+profile+subwoofer&qid=1573970840&sprefix=low+proifile+su%2Caps%2C222&sr=8-7

[shakalaka]

^Thanks.

So I need help deciding on the projector. Based on above comments doesn't look like the Optoma they suggested is a good choice for me to light up that large of a screen. So I am looking at Epson 4010. Is that a good choice then? Will it do the job nicely? How about the Optoma UHD60? Originally I am quoted for UHD50 which people thought won't be good enough but the 4010 and UHD60 are both about a $1000 more. I am willing to make the leap if it's going to make an actual noticeable difference.

Or should I be looking at other options all together?

[revelations]

Deciding on a projector is a big deal. It requires time and research to get the best setup. Whats your throw distance going to be for eg?

I used this site year ago - not sure if its being updated. There are vast differences between projectors.

https://www.projectorcentral.com/projectors.cfm

[killramos]

When I was looking at projectors as an option a little while ago I thought Sony was the only ones who could even claim a semblance of 4K HDR compliance and at truly insane cost.

[revelations]

When I was looking at projectors as an option a little while ago I thought Sony was the only ones who could even claim a semblance of 4K HDR compliance and at truly insane cost.

Yea I compared a 80" 4k TV to a 80" 4k projector and it made more sense for the client (and their setup) to go with the TV.

Something like 8-12,000$ for the Sonys at the time and 5,000$ for a TV.

Speaking of Tv's - 4k 85" for 3000$? wow

https://www.amazon.ca/Sony-XBR-X850G-85-Inch-Ultra-Model/dp/B07P11NJH2/ref=sr_1_3?keywords=80+inch+tv+4k&qid=1574454797&sr=8-3

[shakalaka]

Oh man. I don't know the throw distance...or what that means. How can I find out? My contractor quote me a Optoma hd50 which someone above said isn't going to be bright enough to light up the 160" screen. So I figured I'd ask for a recommendation on a better projector that's 4K and will put on a good picture on the 160" screen.

[revelations]

Oh man. I don't know the throw distance...or what that means. How can I find out? My contractor quote me a Optoma hd50 which someone above said isn't going to be bright enough to light up the 160" screen. So I figured I'd ask for a recommendation on a better projector that's 4K and will put on a good picture on the 160" screen.

If youre serious about spending money on this - the guy who did your quotes at the beginning of this thread, should have done all this for you. It is a major tech-geek undertaking to get the optimal projector. There is also display calibration required, post setup.

Throw distance calculator: https://www.projectorcentral.com/BenQ-TK850-projection-calculator-pro.htm (for a specific model)

You dont just go and buy any projector OTS, its highly variable depending on many factors.

Also, true 4k (not just upscale/upconverted) will net a significant cost increase as mentioned above.

[Mitsu3000gt]

Not sure how I missed this post above but to give an update. Now that the house is nearing completing we are that point where all this stuff will be going in a couple of weeks time.

The screen that the contractor had quoted me was just $5000 on its own. I did some research and asked around and found out screens can be custom ordered from this site in China and I ended up ordering what I needed for $1000US. So I have that sitting.

That got me thinking what if the prices of the receiver and projector he's charging me are crazy too - so I looked up and the receiver can be had for $100 cheaper online (Denon 2600H) and the projector for about $300-$400 (Optoma UHD50). Since I saved a bit on the screen I want to make sure I get decent quality other stuff like the receiver and the projector.
Mitsu3000gt you mentioned above that the receiver is fine so I can stick to that, unless you think there's something better that's not ridiculously more expensive. In terms of the projector then what would you recommend I look at?

For speakers I was thinking of sticking with whatever he is offering as he's done the rough ins into the walls etc already (not sure if that is speaker specific or anything) but they are Omage L-C-R IW8 and JBL Soundpoint SPC11 with Polk sub PSW110. If these are good enough then I won't bother looking into these as well.

If you go back and re-read my replies, most of your questions have been answered in detail already. I suggested to you months ago to get rid of that installer as they are doing some shady stuff and this is an industry where it is EXTREMELY easy to rip people off. Some time has passed though so I will reiterate and copy/paste relevant bits from before for clarity:

- First and foremost, if it were me I would get rid of that installer. They are picking aging equipment, trying to sell you grossly overpriced items ($5K for a screen? lol), and aren't even addressing critical issues. For example, they haven't even checked if you're sensitive to the rainbow effect before selling you a DLP projector that you literally might not even be able to watch. Second, they are selling you a projector that is not a good choice for a 160" perforated screen. Call up BASE Electronics and they will take care of you with no BS. I have no affiliation with them, they have just taken such good care of me over the years and post-purchase service is second to none.

I'll try go through each item and offer an explanation:

Projector

That projector is very average, over a year old now, and it would be one of my last choices to light up a 160" screen, especially if you aren't in a velvet-lined bat cave. You lose even more light using an acoustically transparent screen to boot (approx. 10%). Calibrated, the UHD50 puts out less than half it's advertised lumens in most picture modes, and that is with no zoom. Input lag is also high which is a concern as you said you want to game on it, and HDR performance is sub-par with its low dynamic range and low brightness. For 4KHDR you're also only going to see about 80% of the P3 color gamut (4K HDR BluRays can be viewed in P3). Look at something like the Epson 4010/4050 in that price range or a refurbished Epson 5040UB ($1497 if still available) which is an absolutely phenomenal deal and will blow the Optoma out of the water.

The other reason you don't want an Optoma, is because like any TV or display, your projector is going to be by far the least reliable piece of equipment in your HT. Optima has a terrible warranty and even worse support. If anything goes wrong, expect to be out of pocket and waiting weeks for a repair. With Epson, if you get so much as a speck of dust on the LCD panels, they send you a brand new projector in a day or two, no questions asked. They are even known to replace projectors off warranty. People underestimate how valuable this side of the equation is, especially with projectors. Optoma is not a company you want deal with post-purchase, and the UHD50 is not a good choice for reasons above.

Did your installer check if you are sensitive to the rainbow effect before they spec'd you a DLP projector? Did they tell you that projector uses the old 0.47" DLP chip which means you will have a permanent dark grey boarder being lit up by the projector around your entire viewing area that you will need to hide with a very thick screen boarder? (more than 5"). Do not buy a screen until you know what projector you're getting.

What is the exact distance the projector will be from the screen? That is really important. This is the distance between the lens and the screen. The reason this is important for a number of reasons - first, projectors, especially DLPs, have fairly limited placement flexibility relative to the screen. There is a minimum and maximum image size it can project at any given placement distance (closer = brighter, further = dimmer). I hope your installer has at least checked this because it doesn't seem like they have looked into anything else. Just as important, it will determine how bright the image is and how uniform the image is. This is a HUGE part of selecting the correct projector for the environment as well as the screen.

My advice to you, call up BASE Electronics (I have bought all my HT gear from them for the last 10+ years) and get yourself an Epson 4050. They will give you cost +10%, and if anything goes wrong, they have an phenomenal relationship with Epson, and you get a brand new projector with zero BS. On top of that, it's also a way better projector than the Optoma - you can spend $10K+ and you still might not find all the features the Epson gives you. Bang for the buck is off the charts, and you don't have to take my word for it, you can read all the professional reviews you like. It's far brighter than the Optoma (for your 160" perforated screen and HDR performance), can display 100% of the P3 color gamut, has very low lag (for your gaming), it has an all-glass lens made by Fujinon in Japan (many $10K projectors aren't even using all glass lenses), it has motorized focus and lens shift (again, virtually unheard of even at twice the price), and although it's a pixel shiftier ("Faux-K), it will look better than any entry level native $4K projector that will run you around $10K (more on that later). The 4050 is identical to a 4010, but it's sold to the custom install market. It's also binned (Epson chooses the highest perfoming individual units and uses them for the 4050/6050 models), comes with a second lamp ($500 value or so), comes with a high-end mount, cable cover, black color, and triple the warranty (super important, especially with Epson's liberal replacement policy). I'm guessing you can get a 4050 around $2500, maybe even less - get a quote from BASE. They won't even sell you an Optoma because they are such a nightmare to deal with, just FYI.

One quick note - you can completely ignore people who comment with things like "I once saw a 4K Projector and my TV looks better" or "HDR looks better on my TV", etc. HDR performance has improved dramatically in the projector world in the last 1-2 years. Projectors are also not plug & play - they have dozens of different HDR settings, some of which you will want to change depending on the individual movie you're watching for best performance. They also usually benefit from professional calibration. Without knowing the exact settings, how many hours on the bulb, the screen type, the room type, etc. etc. you can just ignore anyone's comments regarding "X looks better than Y" or "I wasn't impressed with X". Epson uses huge brightness, a dynamic iris, many different HDR settings, and best in class tone mapping to deal with HDR content and it's really excellent, only slightly behind the best TV's and you will forget all about that because your screen is 3X the size of most people's TV's.

Lastly, don't get too caught up in the 4K stuff. More important than resolution is contrast ratio, brightness, and lens quality. A good 1080P projector will look better to almost everyone than a crappy 4K projector because the image will be so much punchier and probably even sharper despite the resolution difference. Contrast contributes to perceived sharpness. Entry level native 4K projectors are not good - you pay $10K just for the native 4K chip, and all other corners are cut which ends up looking worse than projectors 1/3 the price. The Epson's are "Faux-K" and they take the native 4K input signal and put double the resolution of 1080P on the screen. It is visually indistinguishable from native 4K, and you would be up into roughly the $20-50K range to see minor improvements. It looks better than every entry level native 4K (or true 4K pixel shifter) anywhere near your price range. What you're also getting is that excellent lens which makes a big difference, and great HDR performance - if you want those things on a native 4K projector along with a powered lens, you will need to spend as much as a car. The point of diminishing return in the projector world is incredibly low, thankfully.

Screen

First of all, do not buy a screen until you are 100% sure what projector you're getting and what you room is going to be like. This cannot be overstated. Once you know that, and can properly select a screen (your installer should be doing all of this for you but they aren't), call up BASE Electronics and get a quote on the appropriate Grandview screen. They are excellent, made in Canada, and since markup on screens is huge, you will also save 40-50% off retail. If you don't want to do that, go on Amazon and get yourself a Silver Ticket screen (not sure if they do perforated though, I would have to check).

There are many different types of screen materials - white, grey, perforated, etc. On top of that they have a gain value, this is basically how much light they reflect. Higher gain = higher brightness at the cost of slightly worse blacks. Too much gain and you can get hotspots if it's not a well made screen. Too little gain and your image will be too dark. 1.0 gain on a plain white screen is standard, and you adjust screen material and gain from there depending on what projector you're getting and the room it's going in. Many people don't even buy a screen until AFTER their HT is complete. You want to do this last. Do not buy a screen without knowing every last detail of your HT. It shouldn't cost you more than about $1000 CAD give or take - maybe a bit more because 160" is on the bigger side.

Another reason why you do not want a screen until you know what projector you're getting is because of what I mentioned earlier about that Optoma and it's old 0.47" DLP chip - at 160", it is going to project a significant dark grey boarder beyond your image that will be distracting if you do not have a ~5" thick black velvet boarder on the screen. You can remedy this by not buying that Optoma (or any projector using that same chip), or buying a different screen. Newer DLP chips do not have that issue either.

Receiver

This is less important, as virtually all Sub-$1000 receivers are roughly the same aside from room correction. Denon and Marantz are the same company, Onkyo/Integra are the same company, etc. Denon also makes receivers for several other manufactures. We talked about the Denon 2600H, but you can buy a 3600H for $799 this week for Black Friday, so unless the 2600H is considerably cheaper than that, you are paying too much. Room correction is the single most important thing given that most other receiver features in that price range will be roughly the same. The 3600H gets the best Audyssey's best MultEQ XT32, where the 2600H gets a lesser version. This is a reason to get the 3600H, also it's going to be dirt cheap. Not going to be the end of the world either way but there is room for optimization here. If you want to put more money here, I would suggest a Pioneer Elite LX 504 or LX 704. They use D-class amps, some of the best room correction, and a feature list as future proof as it gets. You'd be looking at $1000-1500 or so here after appropriate discounts.

Cables

Quick note here - if you paying any more than Amazon/Monoprice/Primecables pricing on speaker wire, subwoofer cables, HDMI cables, etc. you are getting ripped off, and probably to the tune of several hundred or even a thousand percent markup. I'd also suggest getting an Opti-HDMI cable so you don't have to run a garden-hose-thick HDMI cable up the ceiling to your projector. This should not run you more than $150 or so and they are very reliable. Do note Opti-HDMI cables are directional, since your installer will probably have no idea. Some of them also require auxiliary power to "boost" the signal, and the Epson projectors have the correct input for that as well.

For quick reference, 16ga speaker wire should cost you around $15 per 100ft. If you are bi-wiring or want a thicker gauge, it's a bit more but still super cheap. Just make sure if it's going in the wall or whatever that it's properly rated as such.

A good Opti-HDMI cable will cost around $75-150 depending on length.

Regular HDMI cables for your components should cost $10 or less each, or you are overpaying. Keep in mind that HDMI is a digital signal, it either gets there or it doesn't, cable quality does not matter as long as it has the bandwidth to pass the signal.

Everything in the entire chain from source to projector needs to be HDMI 2.0 (or similar bandwidth) and HDCP2.2 compatible for you to watch 4K HDR content. Receiver, cables, projector, etc. You should be OK here from what I see so far, but I wouldn't be surprised if those installers mess that up.

This is another area your installer is probably taking you to the cleaners price-wise - check it very carefully.


Speakers/Sub

I am not familiar with Omage in-walls, so I will reserve comment on those. I will say that speakers have huge margin on them, so if you are paying any more than cost + 10%, you are paying too much. Room correction and room treatments make a bigger difference than buying better speakers, so as long as the speakers are decent and you aren't an audiophile, I suspect you will like them after a proper calibration of your HT.

The in-ceiling speakers should be fine, you can get away with almost anything there because during a movie they will be doing like 1% of the work. On that same note, your center channel and subwoofer do 80-90% of the work in a typical movie, and it's extremely important you do not skimp out there. I would put in at least 4 speakers in the ceiling for Atmos, in addition to your rears. Up to you though. If you ever think you will play Auro3D content, I would also put in a "voice of god" speaker if you have the benefit of doing it before the HT room is complete when it will cost you next to nothing to add - even if you never use it, you won't be out more than a few hundred dollars.

I don't know how big your room is going to be or what the acoustics are like, but a Polk PSW110 is a very weak subwoofer not to mention ten years old. It's costs about $250. Honestly those installers are stressing me out and I'm not even paying for it haha. It's a 10" sub with only 100W RMS and can't even play below 30Hz. For movies especially, you want your sub to play as low as possible while also being powerful enough to give you a proper visceral experience. This is not a good HT sub, and if your room is big enough for a 160" screen, I am going to guess it isn't small. Most people don't buy nearly enough sub for a proper movie experience, and this is a very weak sub for what I imagine to be your setup. Generally speaking, better subs play louder and lower without sounding bad. If you have extra money, put it here. Get yourself something in the 12-15" range with some decent power behind it. I would suggest a Paradigm Defiance X12 or X15 (12" and 15" respectively). Not only will they have tons of power (900W RMS/1800W Peak) but they will play down to a pretty incredible 14Hz (X15) and come with the best room calibration in the industry (most subs come with no room correction at all) - the importance of which cannot be overstated, especially for the subwoofer. Also, contrary to popular belief, adding a second sub does not double the power, it only adds about 3dB, but it will even out frequency response in the room. A single 15" sub calibrated properly will usually be better than two 12" subs, for example. At cost + 10% I suspect these will run you around $1200-1400 depending on the size - if you are saving $4K on the screen, put a bit of that extra money here and you will be glad you did.


Summary

I know that's a lot and I apologize for the giant wall of text, there is just so much to consider and your installer sounds useless. I wouldn't let those people near my HT with what I've read so far - where to start - a $5K screen, an aging projector they seem to know nothing about and don't even know if it will work for you (and the members of your family) personally, a ~$200 SUB, etc. etc. They are selling you entry-level everything and then a crazy overpriced screen, probably because there is $4.5K of markup in that $5K screen. In summary, put your extra money saved from the screen into an Epson 4010/4050 (or 6050UB if you're feeling rich - $5500) and get a way better sub. That is where you are going to see by far the most significant differences compared to the current things you have spec'd and you will not be disappointed. On top of that if you have any issues with your projector, they will be resolved ASAP with a brand new unit for 3+ years and an unlimited number of times within those 3 years.

[shakalaka]

^Well, wow. I can't thank you enough for taking the time and effort to provide me with all that information. I know SO much more about the topic than I did before I read everything and it finally all makes sense in many ways. Which it didn't really about this topic.

Projector and Screen - So up until your latest post, I was thinking of going for the Epson 4010 based on your recommendation earlier. I see that you mention 4050 to be a slightly better option. I tried some online research and none of the big Canadian retailers have the 4050 for sale. They have the 4010 around the $2600-$2700 mark. But I will call Base Electronics tomorrow and ask them about the cost of the 4050 and if it is actually around the $2500 range as you mentioned, I will just pick it up from them. Will have to do a trip to Calgary to grab it, which is fine as I am there often enough.

But if the 4050 is significantly more expensive than the 4010 then I will just go for the 4010.

Now the difficulty though lies with the fact that I've already bought the screen! I know it goes completely against what you were saying but since that part wasn't mentioned before, I did some research and sourced my own screen. As mentioned I was quoted $4.5K on the screen alone, I ended up getting mine imported from China for $1KUSD. So a significant price difference. A friend of mine going through the similar process had come across this site (xyscreens) and you basically tell them what you're looking for and they custom send you an disassembled screen. I told them I wanted a 160" perforated screen (for speakers in the back) 4K/HD with a black curtain for the backing (even though I having that wall painted Black anyway) with a small border (I believe it maybe 3-4" inches) in black velvet finish. I paid and the screen from China via Fedex less than a week later.

So now that the screen part is done, I figured I can try and choose the best possible projector under the circumstances since the Optoma is completely not recommended. From Optoma price the 4010 is about a grand more expensive but money saved from screen side can go there I suppose.

Installer - It does seem like I don't quite have the best kind out there but the difficulty is that because they've done some work already including rough-ins for the media, it would be hard to try and get rid of them at this stage. That being said, because I wasn't completely satisfied with them is why I made this thread and I am glad I did.

Speakers and sub - It's a 7.2 system so there are three behind the screen and 4 in ceiling speakers with 2 subwoofers. Speakers he is including are some JBL's now actually as he indicated to me he had them left over from last year and that since he won't be using them elsewhere he can give a better deal for them. Apparently they are last years best version from JBL (I forget the model) and that I will have no issues with them.

For subs I will do some more research. The Paradigm suggested do seem quite nice but they are pretty pricey at $1600'ish for the X12 versions. There are V8 and V5 versions that are much cheaper but the X series is up there. While I am sure that I wouldn't want some cheap-ass 10 year old version of a subwoofer, I am not quite sure if spending $3K plus for two quite makes sense either. So I will try and do some more research on this part now.

Cables - I wasn't quoted anything individually for any of the cables. Their is an install charge of $900 or $1000 - and I imagine everything including the cables is a part of that as there is independent itemization of these things.

Receiver - I tried looking up the 3600H version and the cheapest I can see is around the $1500 mark online. I'd appreciate a link to the Black Friday deal of $799 cause I can just buy that right now. The 2600 I was quoted on is $100 cheaper right now on sale then my original quote. Doesn't make a big difference so if going this route I can just let them supply it.

[Mitsu3000gt]

^Well, wow. I can't thank you enough for taking the time and effort to provide me with all that information. I know SO much more about the topic than I did before I read everything and it finally all makes sense in many ways. Which it didn't really about this topic.

You're welcome - there is a lot to consider and your decisions now will pay off long down the road. Projectors are way more complicated than buying a TV, but worth it when you can get a 160" screen looking as good as it will.


Projector and Screen - So up until your latest post, I was thinking of going for the Epson 4010 based on your recommendation earlier. I see that you mention 4050 to be a slightly better option. I tried some online research and none of the big Canadian retailers have the 4050 for sale. They have the 4010 around the $2600-$2700 mark. But I will call Base Electronics tomorrow and ask them about the cost of the 4050 and if it is actually around the $2500 range as you mentioned, I will just pick it up from them. Will have to do a trip to Calgary to grab it, which is fine as I am there often enough.

But if the 4050 is significantly more expensive than the 4010 then I will just go for the 4010.

I was guessing on the cost+10% 4050 price based on the 4010 price. The 4050 from BASE shouldn't be much more than a 4010, but I don't know exactly what it will be. Keep in mind you're getting 2 extra years warranty, a "binned" projector, an extra $500 bulb, a $250 Chief Ceiling Mount and a cable hider - it's worth it even at full price for those extras IMO. Also, with that warranty, if you feel that your projector even looks at you the wrong way one day, Epson will send you a brand new one in 1-2 days (BASE would do this for you).


Now the difficulty though lies with the fact that I've already bought the screen! I know it goes completely against what you were saying but since that part wasn't mentioned before, I did some research and sourced my own screen. As mentioned I was quoted $4.5K on the screen alone, I ended up getting mine imported from China for $1KUSD. So a significant price difference. A friend of mine going through the similar process had come across this site (xyscreens) and you basically tell them what you're looking for and they custom send you an disassembled screen. I told them I wanted a 160" perforated screen (for speakers in the back) 4K/HD with a black curtain for the backing (even though I having that wall painted Black anyway) with a small border (I believe it maybe 3-4" inches) in black velvet finish. I paid and the screen from China via Fedex less than a week later.

It's OK, it sounds like a very standard screen which is fine. And if you don't buy the Optoma you don't have to worry about projecting grey bars over the boarders. What color is the screen (white, cinegrey, etc) and what is the gain? They hopefully have told you that somewhere along the way. Not a big deal either way.


So now that the screen part is done, I figured I can try and choose the best possible projector under the circumstances since the Optoma is completely not recommended. From Optoma price the 4010 is about a grand more expensive but money saved from screen side can go there I suppose.

Grab the 4050 if you can, it costs a bit more but pretty well all of it is a sunk cost that you would be paying regardless of what you bought (extra lamp + high end ceiling mount), you're just getting it s a discount along with an above average projector sample off the assembly line. It's also black, if that fits better with your decor than white.


Installer - It does seem like I don't quite have the best kind out there but the difficulty is that because they've done some work already including rough-ins for the media, it would be hard to try and get rid of them at this stage. That being said, because I wasn't completely satisfied with them is why I made this thread and I am glad I did.

Just keep an eye on them and ask lots of questions. If their actual work is OK, as long as you can manage the price/equipment side of things you'll be fine.


Speakers and sub - It's a 7.2 system so there are three behind the screen and 4 in ceiling speakers with 2 subwoofers. Speakers he is including are some JBL's now actually as he indicated to me he had them left over from last year and that since he won't be using them elsewhere he can give a better deal for them. Apparently they are last years best version from JBL (I forget the model) and that I will have no issues with them.

The in-roof speakers will be fine - they do almost nothing and almost never play noises that require a high end speaker for. If you are using 2 of the 4 in-ceiling speakers for the side/rear surrounds and not Atmos channels, I would add in that second set of Atmos speakers for a total of 6 on the ceiling or a pair on the sides (or 7.2.2) now while I assume it's still easy/cheap to do so. Up to you though, movies will still play fine on a 7.1 setup, you just wont be taking full advantage of the latest codecs. Also note you will need an 11-13 channel amp if you add many more speakers, which complicates things a bit.


For subs I will do some more research. The Paradigm suggested do seem quite nice but they are pretty pricey at $1600'ish for the X12 versions. There are V8 and V5 versions that are much cheaper but the X series is up there. While I am sure that I wouldn't want some cheap-ass 10 year old version of a subwoofer, I am not quite sure if spending $3K plus for two quite makes sense either. So I will try and do some more research on this part now.

I would get one 15" sub and forget that second sub - as I mentioned, adding a second sub does not have nearly the effect people think it will. It will be about +3dB louder (which is not a lot) and in-room response will be slightly improved. A single 15" is going to be better than a pair of 12" in most rooms for HT, it will play deeper, and is much cheaper. These subs also have such good calibration you can put them wherever you want and they sound flawless, largely eliminating the need for dual subs in the first place. The X15 is $1849 but that is a heck of a lot cheaper than two 12". At cost + 10% you are probably looking at $1400-1500 tops and you're all set for the sub. It's a lot more than the $250 you got quoted but you should never have been shown that sub in the first place for your application.


Cables - I wasn't quoted anything individually for any of the cables. Their is an install charge of $900 or $1000 - and I imagine everything including the cables is a part of that as there is independent itemization of these things.

They should be able to break down their labor and item costs. Parts/cables have a fixed cost too, so it should be easy for them. If they can't tell you what is parts and what is labor, you are probably getting bent over like you wouldn't believe on the speakers and cables. You're paying them thousands of dollars and putting a lot of trust in them, I would absolutely be asking for an itemized list of the item/cable type and price or price per foot of everything. I'm guessing you need $60-80 of speaker wire (200ft or so) and $100-150 of HDMi cables, which includes the Opti-HDMI for the Projector. That is some pretty expensive labor, but I don't know the scope of the job.


Receiver - I tried looking up the 3600H version and the cheapest I can see is around the $1500 mark online. I'd appreciate a link to the Black Friday deal of $799 cause I can just buy that right now. The 2600 I was quoted on is $100 cheaper right now on sale then my original quote. Doesn't make a big difference so if going this route I can just let them supply it.

This link here, November 29 - Dec 5 it will be $799 according to their flyer:

https://www.bestbuy.ca/en-ca/product/denon-avrx3600h-7-2-channel-4k-ultra-hd-network-av-receiver/13655507?irclickid=WCi3Kvx0mxyOUMa0EHQlB1XYUkn3TVUwEwxdUk0&ref=affiliate&utm_content=341376&utm_source=IR&acmp=RedFlagDeals&utm_term=644465&irgwc=1

If you're worried, I think you can buy it now and just get a price adjustment on the 29, but you would want to verify that with them.

[rage2]

One quick note - you can completely ignore people who comment with things like "I once saw a 4K Projector and my TV looks better" or "HDR looks better on my TV", etc. HDR performance has improved dramatically in the projector world in the last 1-2 years. Projectors are also not plug & play - they have dozens of different HDR settings, some of which you will want to change depending on the individual movie you're watching for best performance. They also usually benefit from professional calibration. Without knowing the exact settings, how many hours on the bulb, the screen type, the room type, etc. etc. you can just ignore anyone's comments regarding "X looks better than Y" or "I wasn't impressed with X". Epson uses huge brightness, a dynamic iris, many different HDR settings, and best in class tone mapping to deal with HDR content and it's really excellent, only slightly behind the best TV's and you will forget all about that because your screen is 3X the size of most people's TV's.
HDR10 only and no Dolby Vision support in projectors already says a lot, you’re sacrificing brightness mapping against a whole movie vs per scene, so you’re losing a lot in how much dark vs bright details you can display throughout a film. That aside even Dolby Cinemas can’t project Dolby Vision properly. Films are mastered at 4000nits peak brightness today and theaters struggle at 500. Not many people care enough about it, or they haven’t seen what a well mastered DV title can look like, so if it’s not a priority or you don’t know any better, not having good HDR won’t be the end of the world. Fact is if even Dolby Cinema theaters can’t produce enough spot brightness to fully showcase HDR even in a fully dark environment, period, is why no projector is chasing Dolby vision. Simply a waste of licensing money. Projectors and HDR can only take advantage of the wider color gamut and is equivalent with the free to use HDR10 and HLG. Consumer TVs are going to hit the 10k nits upper limit of Dolby Vision specifications well before movie theaters can match what an average TV can display in brightness. Current Dolby Cinema specs max out at 100 nits.

When someone like me says yup, my TV looks better than any projector, I’m referring to the ability to display that peak brightness which gives you a real world like immersion. That experience simply can’t be physically replicated with a projector no matter the price point. You’re right tho, if screen size is your #1 priority, there’s no TV that will match that size. It’s all about priorities and what you are wanting to sacrifice.

[Mitsu3000gt]

HDR10 only and no Dolby Vision support in projectors already says a lot, you’re sacrificing brightness mapping against a whole movie vs per scene, so you’re losing a lot in how much dark vs bright details you can display throughout a film. That aside even Dolby Cinemas can’t project Dolby Vision properly. Films are mastered at 4000nits peak brightness today and theaters struggle at 500. Not many people care enough about it, or they haven’t seen what a well mastered DV title can look like, so if it’s not a priority or you don’t know any better, not having good HDR won’t be the end of the world. Fact is if even Dolby Cinema theaters can’t produce enough spot brightness to fully showcase HDR even in a fully dark environment, period, is why no projector is chasing Dolby vision. Simply a waste of licensing money. Projectors and HDR can only take advantage of the wider color gamut and is equivalent with the free to use HDR10 and HLG. Consumer TVs are going to hit the 10k nits upper limit of Dolby Vision specifications well before movie theaters can match what an average TV can display in brightness. Current Dolby Cinema specs max out at 100 nits.

When someone like me says yup, my TV looks better than any projector, I’m referring to the ability to display that peak brightness which gives you a real world like immersion. That experience simply can’t be physically replicated with a projector no matter the price point. You’re right tho, if screen size is your #1 priority, there’s no TV that will match that size. It’s all about priorities and what you are wanting to sacrifice.

Have you demo'd a calibrated Epson 6050UB in a proper environment? If not then I think you might change your mind about peak HDR brightness being the only thing that matters for satisfying HDR viewing. I think you would be genuinely surprised how good projector HDR is now (as I said earlier, even in the last 1 year there have been big strides in that department) with tone mapping and a dynamic iris. It also has the brightness necessary to do it justice, and you can amplify brightness dramatically with a screen choice if that is your priority. 3LCD projectors like the Epsons also have the unique benefit of having all colors along with white available in full brightness all the time, which really helps for 3D/HDR compared to other types of projectors. It will never be as good as something like an OLED which can control each individual pixel vs having a global light source, but what they can achieve is nothing short of amazing given what they are working with.

HDR is more complicated than just looking at peak brightness specs, especially due to the way the human eye responds to brightness, and especially on such a huge screen. If you are coming from a dark scene in a light controlled theater, your eye is going to perceive an extremely bright burst that happens immediately after as just as bright whether it's 3000 lumens or 10,000 lumens because it gets momentarily overexposed - the event will be over before your eye has time to fully adjust to the extreme brightness change and the viewer is none the wiser. On a small TV, peak brightness matters more if all you care about is HDR peak brightness because you don't get that effect to the same degree when the display is taking up such a small portion of your view. What you end up with in a proper projector setup is something that is almost as good, but at 2-3X the size of any normal TV, which I think is a compromise most people are happy with if they are going the dedicated theater route. I know at least to my eye, watching a tiny display that can blind me if it wanted to is not as satisfying as a wall-sized image that is nearly as good for HDR and as good or better in most other areas. Especially when you have no side-by-side comparison, I think most people would rather be watching a movie on the larger screen. A lot of guys put TV's on the wall behind their projector screens too for when they want to have the lights on or don't want to entertain company in a bat-cave, that is a good way to have your cake and eat it too.

Dolby Vision doesn't need 4000 nits to work properly, all it does is take the display's capability and tone map based on that, which is why it doesn't work on projectors because there are external variables in a projector setup that DV cannot accurately account for in it's HDR tone mapping algorithm. DV works well on a TV because working within the display's maximum capabilities ensures you get a good picture most of the time rather than overloading anything, and it can know all the variables to make that happen. A DV cinema is an order of magnitude less bright than a good home projector, and it doesn't look as bad as the nit discrepancy would suggest. The cinemas are made specifically for that, so they can account for the variables that are too difficult to accommodate in a random person's home. When laser projectors become more mainstream, that is when I think you will see the next big stride in projector HDR, but it really is surprisingly good already depending on the specific unit and setup.

[rage2]

Haven't seen the Epson, if you have it setup, I'd be happy to check it out and give you my honest opinion. I watched on a Sony Laser Projector last year, which was touted as the brightest projector available to do HDR. Great rich colours, but nothing that made me feel like the action was actually in front of me. It's peak brightness that gives that immersion effect, even in a dark room. Just look at how everyone describes what 10k nits looks like:

https://www.cnet.com/news/tvs-are-only-getting-brighter-but-how-much-light-is-enough/
https://www.forbes.com/sites/johnarcher/2018/01/11/why-sonys-8k-10000-nit-85-inch-tv-is-the-best-ive-ever-seen/#5b6e36222705
https://hdguru.com/calibration-expert-is-10000-nits-of-brightness-enough/

In a dark room, or a dark scene where your eyes are adjusted to that level of light, a 400nit flashlight will not look like a 10,000 nit flashlight, period. Then there's bright scenes, daylight scenes with flashes of sun, sparks, explosions, you can't replicate that properly with only a couple hundred nits to work with that the best projectors can provide. Even the Vizio at 3000 nits struggle to "pop" those effects. That immersion is what I'm chasing, which is why I prioritize brightness first and foremost.

I'm at the point now when I watch a movie in theatres, I'm looking forward to rewatching the DV release in a couple months time just to see how specific scenes would look. And I'm always blown away that movies look better to me at home now than at any theatre.

[killramos]

I’m also personally pretty turned off by the Faux-K thing most projectors try to get away with.

Might as well stick to the Lego block pixels you get with 1080p on a 120”+ screen.

I’d much rather cut viewing distance and use a good 75” TV.

[shakalaka]

Mitsu3000gt

Spent an hour on the phone with John and he was super helpful. Discussed everything you mentioned and some more. I am likely going to be ordering most of the equipment from him and get my guys to just install the stuff. The items we discussed are Pioneer Elite 504 receiver, Epson 4050 projector, 2 Paradigm Defiance V10 subs, Paradigm H55 L-C-R speakers and 4 Paradigm H65R in ceiling speakers. Bit on the upper $ end than what I wanted but I figured might as well do it right.

[Mitsu3000gt]

I’m also personally pretty turned off by the Faux-K thing most projectors try to get away with.

Might as well stick to the Lego block pixels you get with 1080p on a 120”+ screen.

I’d much rather cut viewing distance and use a good 75” TV.

How many Faux-K projectors have you demo'd? When you demo'd them side by side with the closest-price native 4K projector, could you reliably tell a difference at normal viewing distance in a blind test? I'm guessing you've done neither based on your comments. You should be less turned off by it and more excited about the quality of picture and feature set you can get for so little money compared to native 4K projectors that until you get into the crazy price ranges, look worse and have less features. Projectors aren't for everyone though and they need an ideal environment to shine.

Ideal viewing distance from a 75" 4K TV is around 6.25 feet, which is probably not that comfortable for the average viewer. Maybe in a dedicated theater.

Which 1080P projectors have you demo'd on a 120" screen? What screen was being used and what was the room like? I set up my brother's HT which happens to be 1080P on 120" and it looks incredible with zero visible pixels. You can see pixels on any display if you hold your face close enough to it.

[Mitsu3000gt]

Mitsu3000gt

Spent an hour on the phone with John and he was super helpful. Discussed everything you mentioned and some more. I am likely going to be ordering most of the equipment from him and get my guys to just install the stuff. The items we discussed are Pioneer Elite 504 receiver, Epson 4050 projector, 2 Paradigm Defiance V10 subs, Paradigm H55 L-C-R speakers and 4 Paradigm H65R in ceiling speakers. Bit on the upper $ end than what I wanted but I figured might as well do it right.

Good to hear - John is great and has lots of patience.

For HT, I would strongly suggest you get a single 12" or 15" over 2 X 10". Especially if your room is fairly large, you need to move a lot of air to feel big explosions and whatnot in movies/games. It will be louder and play deeper which is what you want for HT. You can grab a Defiance V12 if you don't want to pay for the X series. Two subs are not needed in most rooms after you calibrate it with Paradigm's PBK (perfect bass kit). The primary reason you would get two subs is to even out room response, but that issue is largely if not entirely negated once you run the PBK. On top of PBK your receiver's room correction is going to help out even more (run PBK first). You can either save money, or get an X12 for about the same money as 2X V10.

Paradigm's in-wall stuff is phenomenal, you are going to be pleased with those. Pioneer Elite 504 is also a great choice. You are in a different price category than that Denon 3600H now though. I've always bought Pioneer Elite for their D-class amps - they run super cool and have ridiculous power.

Perhaps most importantly, BASE is not going to screw you on pricing and their post-purchase service is great which is not at all common in the industry - a big reason for that is they don't work with any brands that don't let them do easy exchanges for customers, hence why they dropped Optoma.

EDIT: I forgot to mention that the Pioneer Elite LX504 does not use Class D amps, and that is not obvious given Pioneer's marketing terminology, so BASE may not have known that - I know they are big fans of the Class D amps too. Just a heads up you need to move up to the LX704 for Class D amplification, but it doesn't mean the 504 is bad. The 704 also brings Pioneer's best room correction (MCACC PRO) - there is a lesser version (MACACC Advanced) on the 504, and you give up independent dual sub calibration, full band phase control, and precision distance measuring (down to 1mm).

The 504 does still have preouts if you ever do decide to get more speaker channels in the future, you can add them by adding another amplifier without having to buy a whole new receiver.

[revelations]

Its all about size - right now it appears that 85" is the biggest size where TVs will win over any projector in terms of cost and quality of image.

Once you start going >85" , TVs get retarded expensive and projectors start to look competitive.

[rage2]

I would say 75 is the sweet spot limit for TV size. Anything above that size, the price goes up dramatically for image quality.

[Mitsu3000gt]

Haven't seen the Epson, if you have it setup, I'd be happy to check it out and give you my honest opinion. I watched on a Sony Laser Projector last year, which was touted as the brightest projector available to do HDR. Great rich colours, but nothing that made me feel like the action was actually in front of me. It's peak brightness that gives that immersion effect, even in a dark room. Just look at how everyone describes what 10k nits looks like:

https://www.cnet.com/news/tvs-are-only-getting-brighter-but-how-much-light-is-enough/
https://www.forbes.com/sites/johnarcher/2018/01/11/why-sonys-8k-10000-nit-85-inch-tv-is-the-best-ive-ever-seen/#5b6e36222705
https://hdguru.com/calibration-expert-is-10000-nits-of-brightness-enough/

In a dark room, or a dark scene where your eyes are adjusted to that level of light, a 400nit flashlight will not look like a 10,000 nit flashlight, period. Then there's bright scenes, daylight scenes with flashes of sun, sparks, explosions, you can't replicate that properly with only a couple hundred nits to work with that the best projectors can provide. Even the Vizio at 3000 nits struggle to "pop" those effects. That immersion is what I'm chasing, which is why I prioritize brightness first and foremost.

I'm at the point now when I watch a movie in theatres, I'm looking forward to rewatching the DV release in a couple months time just to see how specific scenes would look. And I'm always blown away that movies look better to me at home now than at any theatre.

Well with any luck we'll be in our new house sometime in the new year and the first thing I am doing is installing a HT based around the 6050UB. The GF won't let me line the walls with black velvet though so I still won't be getting the most out of it haha.

Projector HDR is also complicated, because it has to work with a global light source, they do most of it with tone mapping and the dynamic iris. So you could have the brightest projector in the world but if it had crappy tone mapping or couldn't change it's brightness quickly and smoothly, it wouldn't look great for HDR. I haven't demo'd Sony's laser projector so I can't offer a worthwhile opinion there.

If immersion is what you want, I really don't understand why you haven't got into projectors - that is the whole point of such a big screen. Throw a TV behind the screen so after family movie night you can enjoy all those nits haha. There is no better immersion than a wall-sized screen that is throwing an image with decent HDR and and as good or better than some of the best TVs in other areas in my opinion. I get that you really like the pinnacle of HDR though which is obviously a personal thing. For me, I get a lot more immersion out of a big screen, and that was especially true for 3D, but that isn't really a thing anymore (3D was ruined for me if my peripheral vision wasn't covered by screen). The other thing that makes a bigger difference for immersion than maximum brightness, IMHO, is a proper surround setup with Atmos channels. True surround sound and a giant image is still king for movie immersion IMO.

[revelations]

I would say 75 is the sweet spot limit for TV size. Anything above that size, the price goes up dramatically for image quality.

Its a rising curve - but the 85" 4k TVs are still far far cheaper than an equivalent screen and projector.

https://www.amazon.ca/Sony-XBR-X850G-85-Inch-Ultra-Model/dp/B07P11NJH2/ref=pd_rhf_ee_p_img_1?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=0MKYN5TYZGZVRYTJB7BV

[Mitsu3000gt]

Its all about size - right now it appears that 85" is the biggest size where TVs will win over any projector in terms of cost and quality of image.

Once you start going >85" , TVs get retarded expensive and projectors start to look competitive.

In what ways? All out HDR performance will be better on the TV yeah but that's probably about it. Something like an Epson 4010/5050 is a lot cheaper than the really good 85" 4K TVs. Sony's 85" master series LCD TV is $18K and the 98" is $92K. Samsung's 82" top end QLED's have a MSRP of $13K. An Epson 5050UB is around $4500 and a 4010 is around $2200 + $500-700 for a screen. It's hard to make a direct comparison, but if you want a really good TV in the 80"+ range they are cost prohibitive for most people compared to a projector, and there are a lot of people who will sacrifice some performance in certain areas for gains elsewhere plus 2-3X the picture size. The catch, as always, as you need a dedicated room for it. If you just want a big TV and don't care if it's the best, then the cost becomes much more similar to a good projector, albeit with an image a fraction of the size.

I would agree with rage that 75" is probably the absolute maximum for decent bang for the buck on a TV, and even more so at 65" (Vizio PQ65's have been as low as $1200 or so). Above 75 it just gets ridiculous if you want quality along with that size.

[revelations]

In what ways? All out HDR performance will be better on the TV yeah but that's probably about it. Something like an Epson 4010/5050 is a lot cheaper than the really good 85" 4K TVs. Sony's 85" master series LCD TV is $18K and the 98" is $92K. Samsung's 82" top end QLED's have a MSRP of $13K. An Epson 5050UB is around $4500 and a 4010 is around $2200 + $500-700 for a screen. It's hard to make a direct comparison, but if you want a really good TV in the 80"+ range they are cost prohibitive for most people compared to a projector, and there are a lot of people who will sacrifice some performance in certain areas for gains elsewhere plus 2-3X the picture size. The catch, as always, as you need a dedicated room for it. If you just want a big TV and don't care if it's the best, then the cost becomes much more similar to a good projector, albeit with an image a fraction of the size.

I would agree with rage that 75" is probably the absolute maximum for decent bang for the buck on a TV, and even more so at 65" (Vizio PQ65's have been as low as $1200 or so). Above 75 it just gets ridiculous if you want quality along with that size.

I just posted a link for a 85" 4K HDR TV for 3000$.

[Mitsu3000gt]

I just posted a link for a 85" 4K HDR TV for 3000$.

You can get slightly older, heavily discounted projectors too. It's all relative. Epson is blowing out 5040UB refurbs for $1497 which is a lot cheaper than that TV with any screen size you want:

https://epson.ca/Clearance-Centre/Home-Entertainment/PowerLite-Home-Cinema-5040UB-3LCD-Projector-with-4K-Enhancement-and-HDR---Refurbished/p/V11H713020-N

[revelations]

^ that is not a native 4K unit. That is a 1080p with fakery.

[Mitsu3000gt]

^ that is not a native 4K unit.

Have you demo'd a 5040UB? It looks better/sharper than any Native 4K unit below about $10-15K, and has the feature set you usually need to pay closer to $20K to get on a good native 4K unit, so why does it matter? Read the professional reviews on Epson's pixel shifting if you're not familiar with it, it's pretty amazing. You can pay $10K for a native 4K unit with no advantage other than to tell your friends it's native 4K, and the image is half as bright and not as sharp.

Early reviews on $30K USD 8K pixel shifters are revealing zero visible difference to the viewer compared to 4K even on huge screens. Since there is virtually no discernible resolution difference to the viewer, the greater advantages of 4K/8K specification are other things like P3 color, instant HDMI switching, HDR, Atmos tracks, etc.

Just look at 4K TV's - how may people do you think are sitting 4-6 feet away from their TV's? Probably almost zero. If you aren't sitting that close, the main benefits you are getting are no longer resolution-based.

[revelations]

I would have to demo an identical moving 4k image on both devices to make a determination. I dont buy the marketing BS for 2.4 seconds.

Right now though, assuming cost and even if the quality is equal - TVs win when it comes to the non-fuckery of running data and power to a unit that has to be mounted above or behind you - and that the room needs to be a certain level of darkness to get the max out of a projector, degrading bulbs, etc. etc.

Makes no sense at this size.

For OP's requirement, definitely though.

[Mitsu3000gt]

I would have to demo an identical moving 4k image on both devices to make a determination.

Right now though, even if the quality is equal - TVs will win especially when it comes to the non-fuckery of running data and power to a unit that has to be mounted above or behind you - and that the room needs to be a certain level of darkness to get the max out of a projector, degrading bulbs, etc. etc.

Makes no sense at this size. For OP's requirement, definitely though.

Well yeah, that has been mentioned many times in this thread already - setting up a projector based HT requires a dedicated room for best performance. That has always been the case and is also the case for regular TV's if you want to the most out of it. If you bought one of those $18K TV's and set it up in your living room above the fire place or something, there is no way you would be getting the most out of it in that environment. You can also get wireless HDMI, so it is possible to eliminate running cables if you have a plug-in nearby. Obviously the best solution is to know you want a HT while you're building your house, then there are zero wires regardless of your setup.

As for bulbs degrading, laser and LED light sources solve that problem, but are currently pretty expensive, but still dramatically cheaper than any TV in the 90-100" range.

[rage2]

Well with any luck we'll be in our new house sometime in the new year and the first thing I am doing is installing a HT based around the 6050UB. The GF won't let me line the walls with black velvet though so I still won't be getting the most out of it haha.

Projector HDR is also complicated, because it has to work with a global light source, they do most of it with tone mapping and the dynamic iris. So you could have the brightest projector in the world but if it had crappy tone mapping or couldn't change it's brightness quickly and smoothly, it wouldn't look great for HDR. I haven't demo'd Sony's laser projector so I can't offer a worthwhile opinion there.

If immersion is what you want, I really don't understand why you haven't got into projectors - that is the whole point of such a big screen. Throw a TV behind the screen so after family movie night you can enjoy all those nits haha. There is no better immersion than a wall-sized screen that is throwing an image with decent HDR and and as good or better than some of the best TVs in other areas in my opinion. I get that you really like the pinnacle of HDR though which is obviously a personal thing. For me, I get a lot more immersion out of a big screen, and that was especially true for 3D, but that isn't really a thing anymore (3D was ruined for me if my peripheral vision wasn't covered by screen). The other thing that makes a bigger difference for immersion than maximum brightness, IMHO, is a proper surround setup with Atmos channels. True surround sound and a giant image is still king for movie immersion IMO.
Look forward to the invite haha.

I grew up with projectors and 150" screens. So I get the appeal of the size. I'm chasing a display that looks like I'm looking into a big window for that life like realism. Blame kenny he first showed me HDR at his place, I didn't really get it as his TV didn't have silly peak brightness. Started doing research, saw the Vizio 3000nit beast in person, and that was it. I get made fun of for watching movies for the visuals and not the story now by friends and family.


Its a rising curve - but the 85" 4k TVs are still far far cheaper than an equivalent screen and projector.

https://www.amazon.ca/Sony-XBR-X850G-85-Inch-Ultra-Model/dp/B07P11NJH2/ref=pd_rhf_ee_p_img_1?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=0MKYN5TYZGZVRYTJB7BV

I just posted a link for a 85" 4K HDR TV for 3000$.
I said good TV lol.

That's purely a size queen. I have an 82 Samsung right now that outperforms it, and I still consider it mediocre. You want a good TV at that size? 950G is what you'd want at twice the price. Probably the only 80" class TV out there that focuses on image quality till Vizio decides to release their 85" PX. I want to put some of the high end Samsung 82's up there, but with no Dolby Vision, fuck that.

[revelations]

Look forward to the invite haha.

I grew up with projectors and 150" screens. So I get the appeal of the size. I'm chasing a display that looks like I'm looking into a big window for that life like realism. Blame kenny he first showed me HDR at his place, I didn't really get it as his TV didn't have silly peak brightness. Started doing research, saw the Vizio 3000nit beast in person, and that was it. I get made fun of for watching movies for the visuals and not the story now by friends and family.



I said good TV lol.

That's purely a size queen. I have an 82 Samsung right now that outperforms it, and I still consider it mediocre. You want a good TV at that size? 950G is what you'd want at twice the price. Probably the only 80" class TV out there that focuses on image quality till Vizio decides to release their 85" PX.

I take your meaning about HDR and H10 (which the TV I linked does support).

Lets say the 950G - https://www.amazon.ca/dp/B07MVZMD4C/ref=emc_b_5_t?th=1 - at 2x the cost of the 850G, is it really 2x the performance? ( I have no idea).

[rage2]

I take your meaning about HDR and H10 (which the TV I linked does support).

Lets say the 950G - https://www.amazon.ca/dp/B07MVZMD4C/ref=emc_b_5_t?th=1 - at 2x the cost of the 850G, is it really 2x the performance? ( I have no idea).
My use case chasing peak brightness? Absolutely. Quick peek at ratings, it's roughly 3x brighter in all situations. I've looked at a fuck ton of HDR TVs, and you don't get that sense of realism until you blow past around 1000nits of peak brightness in a scene. I'm just sitting around awaiting our 10,000 nits overlords in the next decade.

[Mitsu3000gt]

I take your meaning about HDR and H10 (which the TV I linked does support).

Lets say the 950G - https://www.amazon.ca/dp/B07MVZMD4C/ref=emc_b_5_t?th=1 - at 2x the cost of the 850G, is it really 2x the performance? ( I have no idea).

Price/performance is not linear in pretty much any facet of the HT / audio visual industry. You keep moving the goal posts haha. If you want maximum performance per dollar, you can spend less than anything we're talking about here. After that, the point of greatly diminishing return is still really low. It's a very subjective thing, so it's nice to have as many options as we do.

If we look at projectors again, you need to spend $15-20K for a marginal improvement over a $3-5K projector that *most* people probably still wouldn't notice, or at least wouldn't be able to reliably tell the difference between in blind testing. For some people that's still worth it, but not for the majority.

- - - Updated - - -


Look forward to the invite haha.

I grew up with projectors and 150" screens. So I get the appeal of the size. I'm chasing a display that looks like I'm looking into a big window for that life like realism. Blame kenny he first showed me HDR at his place, I didn't really get it as his TV didn't have silly peak brightness. Started doing research, saw the Vizio 3000nit beast in person, and that was it. I get made fun of for watching movies for the visuals and not the story now by friends and family.


Fair enough. I grew up with a PJ as well and I have always preferred the size over all else so long as everything else is still decent. Now that you can get both good (not best) HDR performance and everything else in relatively cheap projectors, I am a happy camper. You need to dedicate a room to it though which is understandably the deal breaker for so many people. The better Epsons will put over 1000 nits on screen which is pretty impressive, and you can get more with screen gain at the expense of the deepest blacks.

[Buster]

I finally got around to upgrading my XMC-1 to the XMC-2.

https://emotiva.com/collections/processors/products/xmc-2

I now have Atmos available to me, so I'm trying to figure out how to round out my setup. My amp is an old emotiva MPS-1, which is essentially 7 monoblocks in a chassis (https://www.audioholics.com/amplifier-reviews/emotiva-mps-1). I see no reason to replace it. However, if I plan to add channels beyond 7, I have to add some amps.

So should I be going to 9 channels for atmos? I know there are a ton of options. I can retrofit my ceiling to add ceiling channels.

[killramos]

I don’t have much to add aside from whatever that XMC thing is it makes my
Marantz AVR look like an MP3 player with an aux out.

I roughed in 4 height channels for my atmos setup. So 5.1.4 I think is the nomenclature?

[rage2]

The more channels you have, the more accurate the sound placement, but there’s a point of diminishing return. The sweet spot IMO is 7.1.4 if you’re looking at a cost benefit ratio. Going from that to 9.1.6 you’re spending a ton of money for little benefit.

However, if you’ve already spent that money on processing alone, go all out, 9.1.6. 15 speakers > 11. Why the fuck not? Haha

Btw the reason why there’s a point of diminishing returns is because our home atmos data isn’t discrete. It’s coded in a way to cram more spatial object data into lower bitrate, so it’s not a fully accurate representation of the audio in 3D space. Theater films have 128 discrete channels with 3D data, so each sound and position is way more accurate than what’s available in our homes.

[Mitsu3000gt]

5.1.4 is the minimum for really good Atmos. The 4 ceiling speakers are key for the sound "bubble" and so sound can be clearly perceived as moving from the front of the listening area to the back. Beyond that, the more the better.

[pheoxs]

Out of curiosity how much of your media actually supports Atmos? Does Netflix at all?

[killramos]

Out of curiosity how much of your media actually supports Atmos? Does Netflix at all?

Netflix actually has a ton of Atmos content. The majority of their 4k stuff.

[ExtraSlow]

You guys remember when I asked about tv's with decent built in speakers because I thought a soundbar was overkill? Good times.

[rage2]

Out of curiosity how much of your media actually supports Atmos? Does Netflix at all?
If I were to guess, I’d say I have 300 movies in Atmos that I own and growing. Old movies keeps getting updated for free.

[Buster]

So in the past, I had 7.1 - 3 front, 2 surrounds and 2 rear.

If you go to 7.1.4 you get the same setup and then 4 ceiling speakers?

My current theater setup is not ideal, as it has a fireplace where one of the surrounds would go, and then an empty space where the other surround would go.



95297

[rage2]

Don’t be a bitch. 9.1.6 or nothing.

https://www.dolby.com/about/support/guide/speaker-setup-guides/9.1.6-overhead-speaker-setup-guide/

[HiSpec]

For the homeowners that do not have the ability to add overhead speakers, is Atmos-enabled setup the only option? How convincing is the Atmos-enabled setup? Or is it better to stick with 5.1?

[killramos]

I mean spatial audio in general is pretty awesome even if you don’t have height channels.

Atmos enables speakers with the upward firing reflectors seems like a good option though.

Great thing about atmos is it makes do with what you have

[rage2]

For the homeowners that do not have the ability to add overhead speakers, is Atmos-enabled setup the only option? How convincing is the Atmos-enabled setup? Or is it better to stick with 5.1?
You can bounce any speaker off the ceiling. I tested both bouncing and temp mounted on ceiling, ceiling is clearly better, and bounced is probably 80% there if aimed right. I’ll get ceiling mounted speakers at some point when I want to rip the ceiling out.

I converted my 7.1 setup to atmos 5.1.2 and it’s night and day even with the bounced height speakers.

[Buster]

I'm thinking about doing something like this:

https://www.dolby.com/about/support/guide/speaker-setup-guides/7.1.6-overhead-speaker-setup-guide/

Do you know if it is possible to ceiling mount a side speaker? Perhaps a directionally mounted one? I guess I could put a side speaker on a stand, but that might get in the way.

[shakalaka]

Hm strange never updated this thread with pics of my beast of a screen at 160" lol. But for speaker I went with 7.1.2 (if I understand that terminology correctly). But basically I have 3 speakers behind the perforated screen, then two in-ceiling speakers in the centre of the room and then 2 in-ceiling speakers at the back of the room and 2 subs.

[revelations]

not having sampled Atmos with music, is there anything available like selective sound placement (eg. Hz range of 100-1000) in the ceiling?

Or is is just for movies and the 3d sound effect?

[rage2]

I'm thinking about doing something like this:

https://www.dolby.com/about/support/guide/speaker-setup-guides/7.1.6-overhead-speaker-setup-guide/

Do you know if it is possible to ceiling mount a side speaker? Perhaps a directionally mounted one? I guess I could put a side speaker on a stand, but that might get in the way.
It won’t be optimal but that’s what I have setup. My 7.1 setup was all ceiling mounted so it was just a matter of pointing some straight at the listening position and some at the ceiling to bounce back. I test mounted speakers at listening height vs ceiling height and could barely tell the difference between the two.

End of the day, sub optimal setup still works decent. It’s the height speakers that are more sensitive to placement than anything when I was experimenting.

[rage2]

not having sampled Atmos with music, is there anything available like selective sound placement (eg. Hz range of 100-1000) in the ceiling?

Or is is just for movies and the 3d sound effect?
Atmos is 3D positioning. So for music if there’s a location for a sound (ie snare drum) positioned above you, it’ll primarily play that in the ceiling and bits of that audio in other speakers depending on layout. What you’re talking about is selective eq on speakers, I’m guessing to optimize output based on the type of speaker? Every atmos receiver/decoder already does that during the calibration process.

[Mitsu3000gt]

Out of curiosity how much of your media actually supports Atmos? Does Netflix at all?

Even if it's not ATMOS, a good receiver/processor will take a DD or DTS soundtrack and process it for ATMOS / DTS-X. It's not as good as the real thing, but it does a surprisingly good job.

[killramos]

Atmos is certainly not a pie in the sky thing. It’s just natural evolution of audio signals away from discrete audio channels. It makes everything sound better.

[rage2]

Even if it's not ATMOS, a good receiver/processor will take a DD or DTS soundtrack and process it for ATMOS / DTS-X. It's not as good as the real thing, but it does a surprisingly good job.
Specifically it'll line up the channel specific audio in a 5.1 or 7.1 config in an ideal 3d position to match reference setup. I don't think many people (including myself) ever had a 5.1 or 7.1 system in a perfect reference position. Running it under Atmos certainly helps gets it closer regardless of physical position not matching.

[Mitsu3000gt]

Specifically it'll line up the channel specific audio in a 5.1 or 7.1 config in an ideal 3d position to match reference setup. I don't think many people (including myself) ever had a 5.1 or 7.1 system in a perfect reference position. Running it under Atmos certainly helps gets it closer regardless of physical position not matching.



Yup. Between that and good room correction it's amazing what you can end up with these days without technically ideal speaker positioning. A lot of receivers even ask you if your Atmos speakers are ceiling, wall, or floor mounted as they have different processing for each.

It could just be in my head but I think I prefer DTS-X processing - the overhead effects seem to be more pronounced. Hard to do A/B comparisons though since most movies aren't mastered in both.

[rage2]

Yup. Between that and good room correction it's amazing what you can end up with these days without technically ideal speaker positioning. A lot of receivers even ask you if your Atmos speakers are ceiling, wall, or floor mounted as they have different processing for each.
As long as it's setup right. My cousin's $15k atmos investment sounded terrible to him after he heard mine. Speakers wired wrong, ceiling speakers setup for wall height, and didn't even run through auto calibration haha. After an hour of rewiring, reconfigurations and calibrations, it's night and day.

Most people won't read the manual, which is a huge problem in setting up Atmos.

[Mitsu3000gt]

As long as it's setup right. My cousin's $15k atmos investment sounded terrible to him after he heard mine. Speakers wired wrong, ceiling speakers setup for wall height, and didn't even run through auto calibration haha. After an hour of rewiring, reconfigurations and calibrations, it's night and day.

Most people won't read the manual, which is a huge problem in setting up Atmos.

Haha wow, I bet it sounded a million times better after.

It's amazing how many people don't even run room correction, they just hook up the speakers/inputs and call it a day. I was helping someone a couple days ago complaining their sub sounded like garbage and it turned out they just had Audyssey disabled.

[Buster]

Any recommendations on wall mounted rear channels?

Budget isn't a big deal, but having something discrete would be nice.

[ganesh]

Any recommendations on wall mounted rear channels?

Budget isn't a big deal, but having something discrete would be nice.

I am not sure whether Wall mounted and discrete is possible.
This is what I went with in my HT Room. They are In Wall speakers. In your case it might not work because the HT room is already developed unless you want to get a contractor to cut holes in the wall.
I am extremely happy with the results.
Rears , https://www.focal.com/en/custom-integration/in-wall-in-ceiling-loudspeakers/300-series/in-wall-speakers/300iw6
Front and Center - https://www.focal.com/en/custom-integration/in-wall-in-ceiling-loudspeakers/300-series/in-wall-speakers/300iwlcr6
Atmos (In Ceiling) - https://www.focal.com/en/custom-integration/in-wall-in-ceiling-loudspeakers/300-series/in-ceiling-speakers/300iclcr5

[Buster]

Okay, now I have to figure out how to power these ceiling speakers. My XMC-2 should be here on Tuesday, so I want to get going on the setup.

I'm thinking about 3x monoprice 50w/channel amps: https://www.monoprice.com/product?c_id=304&cp_id=30402&cs_id=3040201&p_id=18513&seq=1&format=2

I just don't know if 50w/channel is sufficient for the ceiling speakers?

The next option is probably an emotiva XPA 7 channel, but that's WAY overkill I think.

So, is 50w enough?

[Mitsu3000gt]

Okay, now I have to figure out how to power these ceiling speakers. My XMC-2 should be here on Tuesday, so I want to get going on the setup.

I'm thinking about 3x monoprice 50w/channel amps: https://www.monoprice.com/product?c_id=304&cp_id=30402&cs_id=3040201&p_id=18513&seq=1&format=2

I just don't know if 50w/channel is sufficient for the ceiling speakers?

The next option is probably an emotiva XPA 7 channel, but that's WAY overkill I think.

So, is 50w enough?

50W RMS of quality power should be plenty for surrounds unless the speakers are incredibly inefficient. Especially since the ceiling speakers will be primarily just playing environmental noises for the most part, a lot less power is required compared to say a 3-way full-range tower speaker you plan to use for critical music listening.

[Buster]

This is what I did.

95815

[Buster]

Well, this is what 7.1.6 looks like!

96068

96069