PHEV thread (potentially mega)

[ExtraSlow]

Tesla fambois complained when I mentioned a PHEV in that thread, so here's a separate place for all PHEV talk.
Ford Escape and Toyota Rav4 PHEV options coming out in 2020, which will hit the sweet spot for families.
Mitsubishi Outlander is apparently the current top selling PHEV in Canada right now.

I think the whole PHEV concept is really nice for av average driver. All-electric range covers most daily trips, and no range anxiety for longer weekend trips. Costs are in-line with current family vehicles too, so not the massive cost premium of a true EV.

What's the most interesting PHEV to you?

[killramos]

How many Prius threads does beyond really need

[ExtraSlow]

Lots more man.

[blueToy]

Will look more seriously towards the end of 2022 to replace wife's car with the Rav. Will let the bugs get worked out and crazy hype die down before leaping.

[bjstare]

That Rav4 actually looks awesome. 5.8s 0-60 is better than the new beyond fave cute ute (RDX).

[JustinL]

I'm interested in the 2019 Cayenne e-hybrid. I've been looking for something PHEV to replace the Toureg as a family hauler and race car tow vehicle. The new hybrid Cayenne's finally come with tow hitches. It won't be a couple years until we're shopping, but that one is at the top of the list.

[The_Rural_Juror]

Doing my part to make this thread mega. Take the post count.

[ExtraSlow]

I'm interested in the 2019 Cayenne e-hybrid. I've been looking for something PHEV to replace the Toureg as a family hauler and race car tow vehicle. The new hybrid Cayenne's finally come with tow hitches. It won't be a couple years until we're shopping, but that one is at the top of the list.

Hitches for bike racks, or actually rated to tow something?

[JustinL]

Hitches for bike racks, or actually rated to tow something?
7700 lbs towing capacity and 1635 lbs payload. That's plenty to tow my aluminium car hauler with a 944 race car.

[ExtraSlow]

7700 lbs towing capacity and 1635 lbs payload. That's plenty to tow my aluminium car hauler with a 944 race car.

Yep, that's a very good rating.

[speedog]

So first I had to look up what a PHEV is and once I figured that that acronym had not kept registered with the old grey matter because it doesn't figure into my lifestyle now or anytime soon.

Also, it's still a vehicle power platform that economically still doesn't make sense for a lot of people because PHEV's and most non-ICE vehicles have to rely upon government subsidy programs and a lot of "make me feel like I'm making a difference" purchaser's. I say that because the environmental cost of producing these batteries plus building out infrastructure for the electricity needed usually is conveniently not discussed. Also, the additional costs versus payback over time are for the most part glossed over, most PHEV's are generally more then 10 years in payback.

Now I do recognize that a move to an alternative with respect to powering vehicles will have to happen in the future but who's problem will that older non-ICE vehicle become once it's charge keeping core has lost most of its capabilities and will need to be replaced. Most likely not the original owners bcause most of them will never keep that vehicle that long and as such, I see that aging power pack becoming quite a bit of a growing liability in terms of depreciation.

So will the government step up with more rebates or subsidies to address the end-of-life issues that these vehicles will present? And yeah, it's a whole new set of EOL issues that our world is currently not set up to deal with. Any current ICE vehicle is quite easy and relatively cheap to recycle or even keep going if it's power source needs replacing. Big battery banks made of complex and increasingly exotic materials and combinations of materials means that your regular PnP is not going to be recycling these vehicles.

So then what, are the auto manufacturers expected to create some sort of new non-ICE vehicle recycling network because I just do not see the PnP's of the world stepping up to the plate and doing this. Maybe a better question to ask is where does someone go right now to get rid of an EOL non-ICE vehicle as there are quite a number of places one can currently go to to get rid of a EOL ICE vehicle and for those that wish to poo-poo all of this, well it is a very real issue that is slowly coming into play.

[Darkane]

I don’t mind the PHEV movement. It makes sense to me as opposed to full EV.

At least the feds gave us a $5000 rebate - which can be applied to a 48mth lease.

That can be quite the help. And in other news I think Quebec gets $13,000 off.

[speedog]

And therein lies the problem, rebates from our governments. Are there not better places for our tax dollars to be used right now, improving education and healthcare? If you want a non-ICE vehicle then why should you get a subsidy to purchase it? Is this really any different than Calgary's new event Center in that public tax monies are going to effectively subsidize some very rich people? Does Elon or GM or Honda or Toyota or whomever really need public subsidy programs to exist to sell vehicles? Shouldn't non-ICE vehicles be able to stand on their own on a competitive basis without public subsidy programs and if not, then those that can actually afford them will purchase them?

Edit: I've now realized that this post and my previous post in this thread should not be a part of the discussion in this thread and apologize for that. Another discussion for another time, carry on.

[Darkane]

And therein lies the problem, rebates from our governments. Are there not better places for our tax dollars to be used right now, improving education and healthcare? If you want a non-ICE vehicle then why should you get a subsidy to purchase it? Is this really any different than Calgary's new event Center in that public tax monies are going to effectively subsidize some very rich people? Does Elon or GM or Honda or Toyota or whomever really need public subsidy programs to exist to sell vehicles? Shouldn't non-ICE vehicles be able to stand on their own on a competitive basis without public subsidy programs and if not, then those that can actually afford them will purchase them?

But, but, climate emergency!

Yes I agree with your points, but it isn’t feasible to mass produce EVs and get the profits demanded by shareholders.

Therefore taxpayers take the brunt, because Greta said we have ~12 years to live.

[AndyL]

What will be interesting is the liability for disposal of the battery.

Legal disposal at swan hills is more than the cars worth new.

Insurance companies are already refusing to pay for 30day Tesla mandated soaks after a fire. There's a couple lawsuits flying around this now. Insurance companies are walking away from the wrecks and saying sue us.

[rage2]

Climate aside, PHEVs are a godsend for performance vehicles. The drivability of hybrids bridges the gap of EVs without the drawbacks. No range anxiety for long trips, no poor cold weather performance, it makes a lot of sense for our colder climate and long distance travel needs. With a proper PHEV setup, you’re also getting a lot more power along with the drivability. My E53 is a stop gap solution for AMG and it’s transformed the car even with its puny 20hp motor compared to the non hybrid 450.

Still too early for performance vehicle talks, as all the PHEV performance cars are way too expensive for the average joe. NSX, SF90, Polestar 1, McLaren’s new model next year, all too rich for most of us. If rumors are correct, the C63 should be the first relatively affordable performance PHEV.

[Gman.45]

If that turns out to be how it is Rage2, we'll be taking a hard look at the C63, as our lease on our LC500 will be up around then, and even though it's going to be a 4cyl/PHEV, the reported numbers are going to be close or even higher than the current C63.

We've been running a Chrysler Pacifica Hybrid/PHEV for running my old man around to his doc appointments/treatments and as a general grocery getter, instead of using our ZR2 truck for that task. Even in the winter (put studded winters on it). It'a a PHEV, and IMO it's fantastic. Never thought I'd like an effing mini van. This thing was what got me interested in Tesla as per the Tesla thread/posts a while back initially. We haven't bothered installing a specific charger, we just use the regular 120. Generally we get 50 to 60 KM from it. In the winter with heated seats on, driving at night with more lights/etc, that drops to the high 40s, but more than enough for a day of zipping around doing errands around town. It's so quiet, drives so nicely on electric, everyone I've let drive/borrow it raves about this, and complains once the juice has run out and the gas motor kicks in, or if it kicks in for other reasons (flooring it mostly).

I do wish companies would install a feature where you could "save" the electric power stored up, and decide when and where you wanted to employ it. In the Pacifica it immediately uses the electric power, then goes to gas power. For example, we have to drive 65km to another city near my father for monthly specialist appointments, and by the time you get 40 or 50km on the highway, the electric power is drained, and then once you get to the next city, it's just another gas powered van. It'd be nice to be able to override this, use gas on the highway, and the zip around your destination city on electric in town there.

That said, for daily zipping around town, without any highway use, it's fantastic. Plug it in when it's down to 10, 20%, whatever after a day of using it, and within 8 hours, easily by the next AM morning, it's 100% again.

[ExtraSlow]

I do wish companies would install a feature where you could "save" the electric power stored up, and decide when and where you wanted to employ it. In the Pacifica it immediately uses the electric power, then goes to gas power. For example, we have to drive 65km to another city near my father for monthly specialist appointments, and by the time you get 40 or 50km on the highway, the electric power is drained, and then once you get to the next city, it's just another gas powered van. It'd be nice to be able to override this, use gas on the highway, and the zip around your destination city on electric in town there this exists on some models.

[rage2]

this exists on some models.
Like the Ferrari SF90 haha. It can go electric only, hybrid, or gas only mode. But ya, I figure that will be standard fare for all performance PHEVs.

[Xtrema]

And therein lies the problem, rebates from our governments. Are there not better places for our tax dollars to be used right now, improving education and healthcare? If you want a non-ICE vehicle then why should you get a subsidy to purchase it? Is this really any different than Calgary's new event Center in that public tax monies are going to effectively subsidize some very rich people? Does Elon or GM or Honda or Toyota or whomever really need public subsidy programs to exist to sell vehicles? Shouldn't non-ICE vehicles be able to stand on their own on a competitive basis without public subsidy programs and if not, then those that can actually afford them will purchase them?

Edit: I've now realized that this post and my previous post in this thread should not be a part of the discussion in this thread and apologize for that. Another discussion for another time, carry on.

If government wants to do something, I rather they do manufacturer EV mandate over rebates. Just look at how many EVs got dump into Cali with cheap leases just so manufacturers can stay in business. Cost us nothing and if you want an EV, everyone can get it for cheap.

Hybrid/PHEV are both something to tie us over until battery tech is stable/dense/cheap enough to be widely deployed.

[jacky4566]

I do wish companies would install a feature where you could "save" the electric power stored up, and decide when and where you wanted to employ it. In the Pacifica it immediately uses the electric power, then goes to gas power. For example, we have to drive 65km to another city near my father for monthly specialist appointments, and by the time you get 40 or 50km on the highway, the electric power is drained, and then once you get to the next city, it's just another gas powered van. It'd be nice to be able to override this, use gas on the highway, and the zip around your destination city on electric in town there.


Fairly certain most PHEV models do this. The Audi A3 Etron can do 4 drive modes (EV only, Hybrid, Hold battery, Charge battery).
Chrysler just hires programmers from the 80s.

[JustinL]

Hybrid/PHEV are both something to tie us over until battery tech is stable/dense/cheap enough to be widely deployed.

I know it's probably a pipe dream, but PHEV batteries are really accessible in some models, so I hope that there may be an upgrade path for new battery tech into older PHEVs.

[Darkane]

If government wants to do something, I rather they do manufacturer EV mandate over rebates. Just look at how many EVs got dump into Cali with cheap leases just so manufacturers can stay in business. Cost us nothing and if you want an EV, everyone can get it for cheap.

Hybrid/PHEV are both something to tie us over until battery tech is stable/dense/cheap enough to be widely deployed.

Wait, costs us nothing?

Edit: not sure I’m reading this right. What does manufacturer mandate mean?

[Xtrema]

Wait, costs us nothing?

Edit: not sure I’m reading this right. What does manufacturer mandate mean?

Sell a fixed % of EV in Canada or they can't sell anything at all. This is how there were $99/mth lease on a lot of PHEV/EVs in California. FCA need enough credits from 500e (and now I guess Pacifica PHEV) to keep selling RAMs and Jeeps in California. Unfortunately, I don't think the feds in Canada has the power to do this and each province doesn't have enough purchasing power to mandate it. And Ontario will probably against it due to employment in the auto sector.

Europe is doing the same thing in 2020 but they do it with fines based on emission. VW could be fined up to $9B in 2020 if they don't meet emission standard. That's why they are rushing to get ID3 out next year.

[Darkane]

Sell a fixed % of EV in Canada or they can't sell anything at all. This is how there were $99/mth lease on a lot of PHEV/EVs in California. FCA need enough credits from 500e (and now I guess Pacifica PHEV) to keep selling RAMs and Jeeps in California. Unfortunately, I don't think the feds in Canada has the power to do this and each province doesn't have enough purchasing power to mandate it. And Ontario will probably against it due to employment in the auto sector.

Europe is doing the same thing in 2020 but they do it with fines based on emission. VW could be fined up to $9B in 2020 if they don't meet emission standard. That's why they are rushing to get ID3 out next year.

I understand now.

Back to my original statement, how does that cost us nothing?

[Xtrema]

I understand now.

Back to my original statement, how does that cost us nothing?

Directly compared to handing out $2500-$5000 of rebate vs just a rule change?

And how likely a company will leave an economy with 35M consumers? Especially for products that everyone is making already, they just need to be divert them here.

[Darkane]

Directly compared to handing out $2500-$5000 of rebate vs just a rule change?

And how likely a company will leave an economy with 35M consumers? Especially for products that everyone is making already, they just need to be divert them here.

I’ll be upfront, I’m trying to bait you into telling me how the federal rebates don’t cost us anything, when in reality they do.

All the tax payers.

Without the incentive rebates, EVs will have a hell of a time selling. How will the manufacturers make the stakeholders happy without the proper ROI? I don’t mind the fact we have a rebate, some people are upset about it, but it certainly doesn’t cost us nothing.

[Xtrema]

I’ll be upfront, I’m trying to bait you into telling me how the federal rebates don’t cost us anything, when in reality they do.

All the tax payers.

Without the incentive rebates, EVs will have a hell of a time selling. How will the manufacturers make the stakeholders happy without the proper ROI? I don’t mind the fact we have a rebate, some people are upset about it, but it certainly doesn’t cost us nothing.

I think we are on the same side. Rebate cost us all and only applies to the lucky few that can afford new cars.

I rather a federal mandate to force manufacturer to sell a % of EVs so the cost will be absorbed in their profit margins. So instead of making $11K on a F150, they only make $10K for e.g.

The only way I can see that the mfgers will fight back is be removing all the auto plants in Canada.... something that they were doing anyway and runs south to US/Mexico.

[Darkane]

I think we are on the same side. Rebate cost us all and only applies to the lucky few that can afford new cars.

I rather a federal mandate to force manufacturer to sell a % of EVs so the cost will be absorbed in their profit margins. So instead of making $11K on a F150, they only make $10K for e.g.

The only way I can see that the mfgers will fight back is be removing all the auto plants in Canada.... something that they were doing anyway and runs south to US/Mexico.

Gotcha. Thanks for the reply.

[Darkane]

Do we have a dedicated Rav 4 prime thread? Anyway..


https://www.autoblog.com/2020/05/29/2021-toyota-rav4-prime-pricing/

New numbers:

5.7 0-60
42 miles EV range
ICE engine retuned for more low end torque
39,2xx USD

If Toyota throws us a bone and allows 44,9xx pricing - we qualify for government subsidy. Is it $5000 on a PHEV like on a BEV under $45?

This prime for 40k CDN would be a bargain.

[ExtraSlow]

Price isn't going to be the problem, getting your hands on one is. Sounds extremely limited availability. Betting no dealer has units sitting around to buy until 2021.

Pretty compelling package though. Have been looking at a phev family car for the wife, and this ticks most of the boxes.

[Darkane]

Price isn't going to be the problem, getting your hands on one is. Sounds extremely limited availability. Betting no dealer has units sitting around to buy until 2021.

Pretty compelling package though. Have been looking at a phev family car for the wife, and this ticks most of the boxes.

Yes sir, us too.

And it’ll blow the doors off most vehicles lol.

[ExtraSlow]

The odyssey we have now is plenty fast for my wife. Thing is nearly 300hp ya know..... The phev thing isn't perfect for everyone, but for the majority of her trips that are 20km or less, and she's got 15A charging at work, it would be a great option.

[got_mike33]

I was just going to post this in the thread I had going for finding a dealer for a RAV4 Prime. Fully loaded version of this thing is going to be pricey as all get out probably in the $55k ball park. It'll be hard to justify buying a RAV4 for $55K even if it qualifies for the $5k rebate.

Here's a link to the official press release: https://pressroom.toyota.com/get-the-first-ever-2021-rav4-prime-starting-at-under-40k-msrp/

[ExtraSlow]

I mean, you can spend $41k on a gasoline Rav4, and those things fly off the shelves.

[got_mike33]

True story.

[rage2]

They need to shove that drivetrain into a Toyota 86. I'd pay $55k for it.

[ExtraSlow]

Even a corolla woukd be amazeballs

[rage2]

Even a corolla woukd be amazeballs
True story.

[ExtraSlow]

Matrix Phev?

[The_Rural_Juror]

Tesla PHEV would be amazetesticles.

[ThePenIsMightier]

Weird that I don't recall seeing this on the original date...
No mention of the Lexus RX450H, yet? I think folks have been quite happy with those for the last several years. BMW i8 or i4? What about that smaller Lexus C thing?

Have I embarrassed myself and these vehicles are not in this category?

[benyl]

Matrix Phev?

Honda should license the tech and put it into the Fit. That would be Ultra Savage™

[ExtraSlow]

Honda should license the tech and put it into the Fit. That would be Ultra Savage™

I think you are joking, but a performance focused fit phev would be amazing.

[Xtrema]

Even a corolla woukd be amazeballs

Come on, A 268HP AWD Corolla hatch is already coming to take on Golf R.


Do we have a dedicated Rav 4 prime thread? Anyway..


https://www.autoblog.com/2020/05/29/2021-toyota-rav4-prime-pricing/

New numbers:

5.7 0-60
42 miles EV range
ICE engine retuned for more low end torque
39,2xx USD

If Toyota throws us a bone and allows 44,9xx pricing - we qualify for government subsidy. Is it $5000 on a PHEV like on a BEV under $45?

This prime for 40k CDN would be a bargain.


The problem I see like Extrslow said is allocation.

$39K USD = $54K CAD They lose $9K CAD on every unit not shipped to US if they sell that same model for $45K CAD in Canada.

Also, I believe they qualify for $7500 USD Fed rebate for the next 150k+ units. And some states may pile on some rebates too. So it should sell like hot cakes down there to.

Doesn't matter, heard BC and Quebec are the only province that get allocation in the beginning since they have extra incentives. If Canada get any allocation after US and EU, it'll go to those 2 provinces.

[Xtrema]

One of the unavoidable outcomes of significant production adjustments due to COVID-19 has been a reduction in supply of RAV4 Prime in 2020 calendar year. At the same time, current government rebates and regulations have necessitated an adjustment to the RAV4 family model mix across our area. Therefore, Toyota will launch the 2021MY RAV4 Prime beginning from July 2020 in the Quebec market only this calendar year. Launch for the rest of the country will begin in January 2021, with possibility of ordering beginning at the end of 2020 calendar year.

No RAV4 PHEV outside of Quebec at launch.

[ExtraSlow]

Ouch. So probably mid 2021 before significant stock in Alberta.

[ExtraSlow]

Volvo has lotsa PHEV's:
CleanTechnica: 14% of Volvo Sales = Plug-in Vehicles.
https://cleantechnica.com/2020/06/03/14-of-volvo-sales-plug-in-vehicles/
92068

[ExtraSlow]

Ford Escape PHEV sounds like a nice option to the Rav4 if you are okay with fwd and slightly smaller size. Will be cheaper and likely easier to get your hands on.

[Xtrema]

Ford Escape PHEV sounds like a nice option to the Rav4 if you are okay with fwd and slightly smaller size. Will be cheaper and likely easier to get your hands on.

Won't be surprised if it's another compliance model and only ship to California. Their mandate is 9% EV/PHEV this year.

[ExtraSlow]

Hmmm, maybe. The Ford.ca website does say "phev available spring 2020, contact dealer for preorders" so that doesn't really clarify things.

[Brent.ff]

A bit of identity crisis near Red Deer this weekend

92092

[killramos]

Please please please tell me you hooked it up to a gas generator to top it up :rofl:

[Brent.ff]

ha not mine, but there is zero chance he didnt have a big genny with that rig

[Skrilla]

Been waiting to hear from my local dealer to get allocation. Wife's CRV will be around 4 years by release time and this looks like the perfect replacement. Stupid question but how do the rebates on these work, are they taken off at purchase or do you apply later? Also TRD CH-R should have this engine

EDIT: called just now and they are saying what was stated above, allocation outside Quebec wont happen until 2021. :banghead:

[Xtrema]

Been waiting to hear from my local dealer to get allocation. Wife's CRV will be around 4 years by release time and this looks like the perfect replacement. Stupid question but how do the rebates on these work, are they taken off at purchase or do you apply later? Also TRD CH-R should have this engine

Not sure what TRD CH-R will have but if they are following the hot hatch Yaris and Corolla route, it should have a 3cyl - 1.6T. Not this PHEV drivetrain.

Quebec at launch because there is EV mandate in that province.

BC availability is next in Feb 2021 if their provincial rebate still exists.

Most expect all Fed EV rebates to run out of funding by the fall/winter and will not be topped up.

Toyota need to deliver 60k units to EU in 2020 to avoid $380M in fines.

And if they price SE model at $45K CAD for Federal EV rebate, they potentially loses $8K CAD for every unit that get sent to Canada instead of US.

So Canadians getting their hands on one will be next to impossible until the factory in Japan can ramp up.

[rage2]

For the above reasons, because AB doesn't have any incentives, we get nothing. Even the bottom feeder Bolts, we barely got any here. Same with the Chrysler Pacifica PHEV, which is a pretty sweet setup for a minivan.

[Xtrema]

Here's release on the forbidden fruit.

https://www.carscoops.com/2020/06/2021-toyota-rav4-phv-debuts-as-japans-rav4-prime/

Not sure if it's really hot, or only hot because we can't get it. :D

[heavyD]

RAV4 is such a mediocre vehicle. I don’t understand why anyone is clamoring for a PHEV version of a mediocre CUV that’s going to be ridiculously overpriced.

[ExtraSlow]

RAV4 is such a mediocre vehicle. I don’t understand why anyone is clamoring for a PHEV version of a mediocre CUV that’s going to be ridiculously overpriced.
Well, firstly, this is no longer an auto enthusiasts forum, so keep that in mind. Secondly, most people have a "boring family vehicle" and the Rav4 fits the bill really nicely. The fact that it's faster, and more fuel efficient are benefits.

I mean, suv's in general are "uninspiring", but Porsche and BMW wouldn't be alive without them. Enthusiast cars are money losers.

[killramos]

Yup this is a how to get your kids between their Montessori school and aspen as safely and cheaply as possible forum. RAV4 fits the bill nicely.

Actually, RAV4’s are great. Don’t understand the hate at all.

It’s essentially the same thing as an X3M with a few less horsepower lol

[rage2]

Yup this is a how to get your kids between their Montessori school and aspen as safely and cheaply as possible forum. RAV4 fits the bill nicely.

Actually, RAV4’s are great. Don’t understand the hate at all.

It’s essentially the same thing as an X3M with a few less horsepower lol
Agreed. Rented one in Victoria last year, surprised at how decent it was. Low expectations I guess.

Fucking thing even drove the highways mostly on it's own.

[bjstare]

Yup this is a how to get your kids between their Montessori school and aspen as safely and cheaply as possible forum. RAV4 fits the bill nicely.

Actually, RAV4’s are great. Don’t understand the hate at all.

It’s essentially the same thing as an X3M with a few less horsepower lol

X3M fits the bill nicely. Driving a RAV4 in aspen would be unheard of, and repulsive to all local residents.

[killramos]

X3M fits the bill nicely. Driving a RAV4 in aspen would be unheard of, and repulsive to all local residents.

My mistake

[heavyD]

Well, firstly, this is no longer an auto enthusiasts forum, so keep that in mind. Secondly, most people have a "boring family vehicle" and the Rav4 fits the bill really nicely. The fact that it's faster, and more fuel efficient are benefits.

I mean, suv's in general are "uninspiring", but Porsche and BMW wouldn't be alive without them. Enthusiast cars are money losers.

Thats why I bought an enthusiast SUV.:) I just think there's much better alternatives to the RAV4 which sells on reputation over substance. Having spent time driving the in-laws 2020 RAV4 I was shocked by just how mediocre a vehicle it is. The infotainment system graphics are straight out of 2005 and the engine sounds like a buzz saw when you try to accelerate. I still marvel about the quality of my 1993 MR2 Turbo and am sad how far Toyota has fallen.

[Twin_Cam_Turbo]

I have to say I agree with HeavyD. I find Toyotas in general sell on hype of resale and reliability but are actually really mediocre products imo.

[heavyD]

Yup this is a how to get your kids between their Montessori school and aspen as safely and cheaply as possible forum. RAV4 fits the bill nicely.

Actually, RAV4’s are great. Don’t understand the hate at all.

It’s essentially the same thing as an X3M with a few less horsepower lol

The X3M Comp is the strangest vehicle I've ever owned. You sit up high yet it corners as good or better than any of the hot hatches I've owned and in a straight line will crush nearly anything on the street outside of a C8 Corvette and German supercars. It feels unnatural to drive an SUV that feels like a sports car but here we are and the best part is I can drive my boys to their sports and haul my dog around in his crate which is something that I couldn't do with my M2 and was a stretch even in a Golf R.

[Chandler_Racing]

Yup this is a how to get your kids between their Montessori school and aspen as safely and cheaply as possible forum. RAV4 fits the bill nicely.

Actually, RAV4’s are great. Don’t understand the hate at all.

It’s essentially the same thing as an X3M with a few less horsepower lol

I bought my wife an X1 -> Rav4 -> CRV

The X1 was good, Rav4 was a turd and CRV is a major improvement.

[bjstare]

My mistake

It's ok, obviously you aren't from Aspen so you wouldn't know the difference.


I have to say I agree with HeavyD. I find Toyotas in general sell on hype of resale and reliability but are actually really mediocre products imo.

If Toyotas were as nice as they are reliable, they would cost a fortune. All cars are designed to a budget, can't have everything. Lexus vs the Germans is another great example.. they aren't as nice, but they're way more reliable.

[killramos]

It's ok, obviously you aren't from Aspen so you wouldn't know the difference.


My lowly neighborhood is full of rav4’s. Must be trash.

[heavyD]

My lowly neighborhood is full of rav4’s.

Avatar photo checks out.

[rage2]

Still find it funny that RAV4 prime is considered ridiculously overpriced and that the X3M in comparison is a much better vehicle at twice the overpriced price of the RAV4 prime haha.

For the money, it’s a solid utilitarian CUV with some straight line performance upsides. I’m not buying one but it’s a great car for family that aren’t the car guy exceptions like us.

[heavyD]

Still find it funny that RAV4 prime is considered ridiculously overpriced and that the X3M in comparison is a much better vehicle at twice the overpriced price of the RAV4 prime haha.

For the money, it’s a solid utilitarian CUV with some straight line performance upsides. I’m not buying one but it’s a great car for family that aren’t the car guy exceptions like us.

I don't think anyone said the X3M is a good value. In my experience all luxury vehicles are poor value when you consider resale, operating costs, etc. I just feel the CR-V and CX-5 (also have driven a fair bit) are superior CUV's and the Koreans aren't far behind.

[Xtrema]

Thats why I bought an enthusiast SUV.:) I just think there's much better alternatives to the RAV4 which sells on reputation over substance. Having spent time driving the in-laws 2020 RAV4 I was shocked by just how mediocre a vehicle it is. The infotainment system graphics are straight out of 2005 and the engine sounds like a buzz saw when you try to accelerate. I still marvel about the quality of my 1993 MR2 Turbo and am sad how far Toyota has fallen.

Just for you:
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a32109250/toyota-corolla-gr-hot-hatch-confirmed-2022/

https://www.motor1.com/news/398375/toyota-gr-c-hr-rumor/

https://toyotagazooracing.com/gr/yaris/

Toyota can't do any of these without RAV4 Hybrid or Prime.

And they way Toyota execute RAV4 Prime by raising suspension and put all the battery under the cabin makes it have a very low center of gravity. Unlike GLC350e or Crosstrek PHEV that actually loses trunk and spare space to house the batteries.

[heavyD]

Just for you:
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a32109250/toyota-corolla-gr-hot-hatch-confirmed-2022/

https://www.motor1.com/news/398375/toyota-gr-c-hr-rumor/

https://toyotagazooracing.com/gr/yaris/

Toyota can't do any of these without RAV4 Hybrid or Prime.

I actually like the styling of the latest Corolla and Camry. First time in ages Toyota has offered vehicles that elicit a double take when viewing that wasn't built by Subaru or BMW. I'm glad to see they are trying to turn around their perception of building vehicles that only a beancounter could love.

[Skrilla]

Looks like I need to find another option if there is going to be that big of a delay. Any suggestions? Currently she has a '18 CRV touring. Ideally something with considerably better performance, not that my wife cares but I drive it occasionally and the CRV is a dog. Want something that's had a fresh redesign either this year or 2021 MY.

[Xtrema]

Looks like I need to find another option if there is going to be that big of a delay. Any suggestions? Currently she has a '18 CRV touring. Ideally something with considerably better performance, not that my wife cares but I drive it occasionally and the CRV is a dog. Want something that's had a fresh redesign either this year or 2021 MY.

Recently announced Venza? Just a normal hybrid but it's basically Japanese version of Lexus RX. Don't know what Toyota will price it at but probably starts at where RAV4 hybrid ends.


https://youtu.be/ULCwxENMaK0

[Skrilla]

Recently announced Venza? Just a normal hybrid but it's basically Japanese version of Lexus RX. Don't know what Toyota will price it at but probably starts at where RAV4 hybrid ends.


https://youtu.be/ULCwxENMaK0

Wow that's quite nice. Sure better than the old Venza. Thanks for the idea!

[gogreen]

Been waiting to hear from my local dealer to get allocation. Wife's CRV will be around 4 years by release time and this looks like the perfect replacement. Stupid question but how do the rebates on these work, are they taken off at purchase or do you apply later? Also TRD CH-R should have this engine

EDIT: called just now and they are saying what was stated above, allocation outside Quebec wont happen until 2021. :banghead:

Regarding your question on the federal rebate, it’s taken off at purchase and the dealers apply to get reimbursed. Which could get interesting as the funding starts to get low.

[88CRX]

RAV4 is such a mediocre vehicle. I don’t understand why anyone is clamoring for a PHEV version of a mediocre CUV that’s going to be ridiculously overpriced.

I'm with you there.

Had a Rav4 as a rental a month or so ago and I was extremely disappointment as well. Infotainment and interior was blah. And the fucking side mirrors rattled on the highway the entire time. And it sounded and felt like it had 150k km's on it (it had 20k). It actually reminded me of the Rav4 Prime discussion on here, was wondering WTF everyone was thinking lining up for one.

CRV Touring that we test drove last summer felt 100x nicer and more refined :dunno:

[rage2]

I'm with you there.

Had a Rav4 as a rental a month or so ago and I was extremely disappointment as well. Infotainment and interior was blah. And the fucking side mirrors rattled on the highway the entire time. And it sounded and felt like it had 150k km's on it (it had 20k). It actually reminded me of the Rav4 Prime discussion on here, was wondering WTF everyone was thinking lining up for one.

CRV Touring that we test drove last summer felt 100x nicer and more refined :dunno:
I haven't driven the new CRV, last gen (maybe 2 gens ago) I preferred the RAV4 over CRV. As for the infotainment, it had touchscreen CarPlay. That's better than my car. :rofl:

[88CRX]

I haven't driven the new CRV, last gen (maybe 2 gens ago) I preferred the RAV4 over CRV. As for the infotainment, it had touchscreen CarPlay. That's better than my car. :rofl:

Not sure what model I had but it had an aux hookup and thats about it.

I probably should drive a comparable loaded Rav4 to be fair.

[rage2]

Not sure what model I had but it had an aux hookup and thats about it.

I probably should drive a comparable loaded Rav4 to be fair.
Yea, the one I rented had touchscreen, CarPlay, and pretty decent semi self driving shit.

[Xtrema]

Not sure what model I had but it had an aux hookup and thats about it.

I probably should drive a comparable loaded Rav4 to be fair.


2019 Rav4 has CP
2020 Rav4 has CP and AA

Without neither, you are riding a 2018 or older. That RAV4 was trash. CRV was better.

Was helping my cousin (non-car person) to pick a car, surprised that I didn't hate the new Japanese made Corolla Hatch or the new RAV4, both TNGA based.

[killramos]

Yea I think we are talking about completely different vehicles. The new RAV4 is pretty great, and looks the part too.

CRV has been meh.... well since it came out. I can’t wrap my head around why anyone buys Honda’s anymore.

[Xtrema]

I can’t wrap my head around why anyone buys Honda’s anymore.

They like gasoline in their oil.

[Skrilla]

I'm with you there.

Had a Rav4 as a rental a month or so ago and I was extremely disappointment as well. Infotainment and interior was blah. And the fucking side mirrors rattled on the highway the entire time. And it sounded and felt like it had 150k km's on it (it had 20k). It actually reminded me of the Rav4 Prime discussion on here, was wondering WTF everyone was thinking lining up for one.

CRV Touring that we test drove last summer felt 100x nicer and more refined :dunno:

We had a V6 Rav4 before our CRV Touring and I miss it. The V6 Rav was an excellent vehicle, zero problems, lots of pep. Our CRV, while mechanically solid, has had the trim around the shifter area replaced twice (neither under warranty), passenger seat threads tore open, NAV screen quit working at 11k kms, not to mention the mandatory $800 service at 30k kms just to keep our warranty. Won't be going Honda next time. I didn't like the previous gen RAV, but the prime looks nice on paper. the SUV I miss the most was our old Tblazer SS, that thing was phenomenal the 4 years we owned it. Would never buy a BMW or Merc where we live, but Volvo may be in our future if its up to me. Those Volvo's are gorgeous inside and out. My wife really likes the ST Explorer so that will be in the comparison as well. To each their own for sure, this was my first Honda that was a bit of a let down, not to mention the dealer here is a joke.

[heavyD]

We had a V6 Rav4 before our CRV Touring and I miss it. The V6 Rav was an excellent vehicle, zero problems, lots of pep. Our CRV, while mechanically solid, has had the trim around the shifter area replaced twice (neither under warranty), passenger seat threads tore open, NAV screen quit working at 11k kms, not to mention the mandatory $800 service at 30k kms just to keep our warranty. Won't be going Honda next time. I didn't like the previous gen RAV, but the prime looks nice on paper. the SUV I miss the most was our old Tblazer SS, that thing was phenomenal the 4 years we owned it. Would never buy a BMW or Merc where we live, but Volvo may be in our future if its up to me. Those Volvo's are gorgeous inside and out. My wife really likes the ST Explorer so that will be in the comparison as well. To each their own for sure, this was my first Honda that was a bit of a let down, not to mention the dealer here is a joke.

If you are going to buy a utility vehicle with poor reliability may as well get a Jeep and save yourself the Volvo premium.

[ExtraSlow]

heavy_d, it's weird how you keep posting in the phev thread about vehicles that are not phev.

[Skrilla]

If you are going to buy a utility vehicle with poor reliability may as well get a Jeep and save yourself the Volvo premium.

Are they that bad? Honest question, never owned one, just thought they looked very nicely put together.

[Brent.ff]

Can someone TLDR this thread for me? This Rav seems like a good option for my wife who's doing ~200k a day. When do they come out in AB?

[killramos]

PHEV probably doesn’t do you much good for highway driving. Where they shine is in the city. You will burn through the electric range in 45 minutes then you are just hauling batteries around and driving an ICE car.

Better off going with an efficient ICE for a 200k (presumably) highway commute. Or full electric, but then you aren’t really saving money.

[Twin_Cam_Turbo]

200k a day is going to mile out a new vehicle fairly quick too. Maybe consider lightly used.

[Skrilla]

The V60 Hybrid is really sweet. Are those even available in Canada?

[ExtraSlow]

Can someone TLDR this thread for me? This Rav seems like a good option for my wife who's doing ~200k a day. When do they come out in AB?

Tldr, the prime isn't going to be available in Alberta for fucking ages, nor will anything else that's been recently announced. 2022 will be a good year to buy, might have decent selection by then.

[heavyD]

Are they that bad? Honest question, never owned one, just thought they looked very nicely put together.

Unfortunately as nice as they look they have lots of issues. I don't think I have ever seen Volvo at even industry average in reliability. You are better off with the BMW (if you want German) or Lexus if you want a more reliable luxury vehicle.

https://www.jdpower.com/business/press-releases/2020-us-vehicle-dependability-study



heavy_d, it's weird how you keep posting in the phev thread about vehicles that are not phev.

It's not weird at at all. PHEV or not the RAV-4 is a mediocre vehicle. Volvo's have poor reliability. Just doing my due diligence in hopes of educating people. :)

[killramos]

Probably more likely to see the Next Gen Lexus NX PHEV before we see the RAV4 Prime the way things are being prioritized.

For the price premium i would look at the Lexus. My NX’s aren’t perfect but have continued to impress us.

[rage2]

PHEV probably doesn’t do you much good for highway driving. Where they shine is in the city. You will burn through the electric range in 45 minutes then you are just hauling batteries around and driving an ICE car.

Better off going with an efficient ICE for a 200k (presumably) highway commute. Or full electric, but then you aren’t really saving money.
Disagree, unless you're driving on a completely flat road. There's still decent ~20% fuel economy savings with hybrid as it recaptures energy going downhill and uses it during uphill, and that's with my basic 1kwh hybrid setup. A bigger battery and electric motor/generator will recapture even more. I've driven both my E's together and the E53 consistently gets 20% better mileage on the highway than the E400.

[Skrilla]

Unfortunately as nice as they look they have lots of issues. I don't think I have ever seen Volvo at even industry average in reliability. You are better off with the BMW (if you want German) or Lexus if you want a more reliable luxury vehicle.

https://www.jdpower.com/business/press-releases/2020-us-vehicle-dependability-study




It's not weird at at all. PHEV or not the RAV-4 is a mediocre vehicle. Volvo's have poor reliability. Just doing my due diligence in hopes of educating people. :)

Appreciate the info, I have no experience with them so it's all helpful!

[killramos]

Disagree, unless you're driving on a completely flat road. There's still decent ~20% fuel economy savings with hybrid as it recaptures energy going downhill and uses it during uphill, and that's with my basic 1kwh hybrid setup. A bigger battery and electric motor/generator will recapture even more. I've driven both my E's together and the E53 consistently gets 20% better mileage on the highway than the E400.

That’s not really the point of a plug-in PHEV though, my understanding is largely the point is to have enough battery for day to day driving. And ICE for range when you need it.

You win by not turning on the ICE for 90% of your driving rather than fuel economy savings in hybrid mode. At least that’s my understanding.