ACL / Knee issue

[The Cosworth]

So last night at TKD in sparring I felt a pop and went down hard. I have a doctors appointment and some imaging booked this afternoon. Curious if there is anything I can do in the meantime while I wait for the appointment to not have it hurt so much. I have a tensor bandage wrapped around it, using a hiking stick, and have a couple ibuprofen in me. Straight lateral movement doesn't hurt but any twisting at all almost makes me fall over and hurts like an SOB. Guy at work said it sounded similar to when he blew his ACL, so hope not.

[riander5]

No advice on pain, but if it is ACL or some form of CL tear... try to get it reconstructed with this companies technology. I think south health has doctors that use it - source - wife used to be medical sales for them and they are industry leader in rehabing athletes

https://www.arthrex.com/knee/acl-reconstruction

[dimi]

https://sport-med.ucalgary.ca/clinics/akic

Apply for the above. Doctor will likely refer you to a specialist anyway, and this route expedited my surgery.

[The Cosworth]

Thanks guys. I'll check into the technology and I just filled it out Dimi. Awesome! Well not awesome but you know what I mean.

[AndyL]

Um... No try to get reffered out to the knee clinic in canmore/banff. Forget they're names but it was once husband and wife and they're awesome.

Rest, Ice, Compress, Elevate. Stay off it - borrow a set of crutches if its hurting to bear weight.

[flipstah]

If it's ACL, it'll swell like a mofo.

[The Cosworth]

Um... No try to get reffered out to the knee clinic in canmore/banff. Forget they're names but it was once husband and wife and they're awesome.

Rest, Ice, Compress, Elevate. Stay off it - borrow a set of crutches if its hurting to bear weight.

Yeah I am using a hiking walking stick so far. I hope it isn't the doctor who died in the avalanche on the weekend. :(


If it's ACL, it'll swell like a mofo.

OK yeah hopefully not then. Hoping I just slipped the kneecap or the joint or something. :|

[AndyL]

Yeah I am using a hiking walking stick so far. I hope it isn't the doctor who died in the avalanche on the weekend. :(



OK yeah hopefully not then. Hoping I just slipped the kneecap or the joint or something. :|

husband and wife pair were the base of the clinic, last time I was there - they'd added 2-3 ortho's more.

subluxed patellas are not fun. Used to be a weekly thing for me.

[Mitsu3000gt]

So last night at TKD in sparring I felt a pop and went down hard. I have a doctors appointment and some imaging booked this afternoon. Curious if there is anything I can do in the meantime while I wait for the appointment to not have it hurt so much. I have a tensor bandage wrapped around it, using a hiking stick, and have a couple ibuprofen in me. Straight lateral movement doesn't hurt but any twisting at all almost makes me fall over and hurts like an SOB. Guy at work said it sounded similar to when he blew his ACL, so hope not.

I tore my ACL twice, and last April I tore it completely. I have also dislocated my knee cap. My advice is go to physo immediately (doctor can't do anything other than give you pain meds). The mistake I made the first time was waiting too long to start Physio and I paid for it. If you think it would be beneficial for your diagnosis/treatment, get a MRI, they are about $650 at EFW Radiology by Foothills for private. Not sure what imaging you already have booked though. Maybe ask your physio guy this.

Your ACL is the stabilizer tendon that prevents your knee from slipping forward over the lower part of your leg, if that makes any sense. Really common injury for sports or activities with quick changes of direction (like skiing or racket sports). I tore mine the first time wakeboarding and the second time playing badminton.

That "pop" sound is classic tendon tear sound, but hopefully for you it's relatively minor. If you tore your ACL your knee will swell up a lot.

Alex at Core Physio downtown is excellent with knees, he did my rehabilitation and actually works with you the entire time, he doesn't just give you instructions and leave. Highly recommend that place and also Alex.

I think you're doing everything right (take it easy and use pain meds as needed) - just get the imaging you need to confirm the injury ASAP and get into physio ASAP.

You need to be referred by your Physio, but Group23 has an awesome knee clinic at COP. I had a consult with a surgeon there and they made my brace. I was offered surgery if I ever want it, but it isn't absolutely necessary. Also, Alberta Health will pay 75% of a $1,600 custom knee brace just so you're aware - you need a referral though, which is another reason to start physio ASAP.

[The Cosworth]

Thanks for the detail mitsu! Based on what you're saying I don't THINK it will be the ACL then just because of my range of motion. However I assume there is something else in there that stops the lateral / twisting motion inside there? Yeah my co-workers wife is a physio so she's already looking into stuff for me. Hahah

[Mitsu3000gt]

Thanks for the detail mitsu! Based on what you're saying I don't THINK it will be the ACL then just because of my range of motion. However I assume there is something else in there that stops the lateral / twisting motion inside there? Yeah my co-workers wife is a physio so she's already looking into stuff for me. Hahah

You're welcome. I hope it's not your ACL as well - my first injury was actually misdiagnosed, but to be fair I tore my ACL like 95% so it was still hanging on by a thread, which confused some of the diagnosis. Had I got an MRI the first time around that wouldn't have been an issue. When you go to physio, they will manipulate your leg and can tell pretty quickly if it's the ACL unless it's still too swollen. Basically they move it in a certain direction, and if there is no resistance where there should be, your ACL is probably gone. It won't affect your range of motion (when the swelling is gone), at least in my experience or to my knowledge - certain things will just hurt, or move when they shouldn't move (your range of motion is probably more, but not in a good way lol). If it ends up being difficult to diagnose I'd suggest getting an MRI to help out the people trying to help you as best as possible.

I don't think the ACL stops twisting motion too much - to my knowledge it is more to prevent your knee from physically slipping forward or to the side. My left knee has no ACL in it at all and it sometimes feels loose, or when I tweak it, I can feel it moving around a lot. It's a stability tendon.

If you do need surgery, apparently it is much faster now. About 10 years ago my brother tore his ACL and elected to get surgery. He was out for 9 months, much of that time spent in a chair with his leg in a giant velcro cast that went from his ankle to his crotch. Now, apparently, they get you walking pretty much right away after with a brace (the same brace I mentioned earlier that you may want to get regardless, but have that discussion with your physio). There's different ways to repair it depending on your specific case, but they often use a piece of your hamstring to repair it.

If you have a physio friend sounds like you're in good hands at least with preliminary info :thumbsup:

[The Cosworth]

So just got back from my GP. I told her I applied to the UofC place and she said 'good, if you don't hear back soon from there I'll get you into southland'. So that's good news. Went and got x-rays done. She figures I have a torn meniscus.

[Mitsu3000gt]

So just got back from my GP. I told her I applied to the UofC place and she said 'good, if you don't hear back soon from there I'll get you into southland'. So that's good news. Went and got x-rays done. She figures I have a torn meniscus.

I was told to go to the UofC Knee Clinic too, but they denied my application as soon as they found out I had a MRI and a diagnosis. From what I understood after talking to them, they are only interested in you if you are having trouble getting a proper diagnosis.

Hopefully it's your meniscus, that's better than a torn ACL. Definitely get a physio who specializes in knees to check it out though. Both my doctor and the first physio place I went too told me I dislocated my kneecap when in fact I tore my ACL about 95% through, though I may have done both haha.

[The Cosworth]

I was told to go to the UofC Knee Clinic too, but they denied my application as soon as they found out I had a MRI and a diagnosis. From what I understood after talking to them, they are only interested in you if you are having trouble getting a proper diagnosis.

Hopefully it's your meniscus, that's better than a torn ACL. Definitely get a physio who specializes in knees to check it out though. Both my doctor and the first physio place I went too told me I dislocated my kneecap when in fact I tore my ACL about 95% through, though I may have done both haha.

Good to know. Yeah my doctor was the first to admit that she doesn't know so I do have that going for me. She just knows to refer me and get some imaging done.

[A2VR6]

Hopefully you can get a MRI to confirm that. I had a torn meniscus 4 years ago and unfortunately when the MRI came back, it was in a location that couldn’t be repaired and a place that wouldn’t heal so I had to have it removed. I went to the U of C knee injury clinic and it was the doctor there that recommended me for surgery and he did the operation. Was ~3 months of healing but I’m back to 100% with no ill effects.

[Shlade]

Xray wont really show much. MRI will reveal the extent of damage fully. Though, unless its WCB the wait times are anywhere rom 7 months to a year. Unless you wanna fork over the $800 or so to get it done sooner.

[ercchry]

Xray wont really show much. MRI will reveal the extent of damage fully. Though, unless its WCB the wait times are anywhere rom 7 months to a year. Unless you wanna fork over the $800 or so to get it done sooner.

I always heard this... but have IME via insurance and also the public doctor referral route... no real difference in waits, both pretty quick

[Mitsu3000gt]

Xray wont really show much. MRI will reveal the extent of damage fully. Though, unless its WCB the wait times are anywhere rom 7 months to a year. Unless you wanna fork over the $800 or so to get it done sooner.

It's not that expensive, I had one done in April at EFW for either $650 or $675, I don't remember exactly. Only had to wait 2 days to get in.

Also if your work has a health spending account, it's very likely eligible. For the (relatively) low cost, I suggest anyone with a proportionally serious injury just go get it done ASAP - it's not worth waiting. In my particular case as well, it showed things that nobody else found with traditional diagnosis.

[The Cosworth]

It's not that expensive, I had one done in April at EFW for either $650 or $675, I don't remember exactly. Only had to wait 2 days to get in.

Also if your work has a health spending account, it's very likely eligible. For the (relatively) low cost, I suggest anyone with a proportionally serious injury just go get it done ASAP - it's not worth waiting. In my particular case as well, it showed things that nobody else found with traditional diagnosis.

Yeah I should find out in the next couple days if the knee place at the UofC or Southland will take me. If not in a reasonable time-frame (like a week), I'll go private.

I just had it re-examined by the 'knee guy' and I have movement in my PCL and clicking. So they're concerned about that and the pain is consistence with posterior meniscus damage (I don't know if that's a thing and I remember it right. I don't do biology). He did say the PCL doesn't seem totally torn as I have some resistance. So yeah they're starting the referrals to it all and I'll see in the next couple days here if I get in somewhere. They said it is very likely I'll get in with UofC but it is their call in the end.

[Mitsu3000gt]

Yeah I should find out in the next couple days if the knee place at the UofC or Southland will take me. If not in a reasonable time-frame (like a week), I'll go private.

I just had it re-examined by the 'knee guy' and I have movement in my PCL and clicking. So they're concerned about that and the pain is consistence with posterior meniscus damage (I don't know if that's a thing and I remember it right. I don't do biology). He did say the PCL doesn't seem totally torn as I have some resistance. So yeah they're starting the referrals to it all and I'll see in the next couple days here if I get in somewhere. They said it is very likely I'll get in with UofC but it is their call in the end.

If they're having trouble diagnosing you, you're likely a good candidate for the UofC. Failing that, get a MRI. You might even want an MRI anyway to give the people helping you the best possible information - not sure if the UofC can facilitate a MRI or not. Sounds like you have a good plan.

[A2VR6]

I seem to recall that I had to get my MRI from my family doctor. Luckily I somehow got added to the cancellation list and was able to get a cancellation spot within a few days (granted the appointment was at like 11 pm)

[Mitsu3000gt]

I seem to recall that I had to get my MRI from my family doctor. Luckily I somehow got added to the cancellation list and was able to get a cancellation spot within a few days (granted the appointment was at like 11 pm)

You can also camp out at the MRI places and get in as soon as there is a cancellation - if you have lots of free time, that is one way to get a free MRI through Alberta Health with hardly any wait time, but you literally have go and physically sit in the wait room until there is a cancellation. The cost of a private MRI though is about what a vacation day is worth to most people though I would imagine, so I don't think many people elect to do it that way. If you got in fast & free, that's outstanding.

[The Cosworth]

I seem to recall that I had to get my MRI from my family doctor. Luckily I somehow got added to the cancellation list and was able to get a cancellation spot within a few days (granted the appointment was at like 11 pm)

Just so I am clear, you had to get the MRI still through your family doctor even though you got into the UofC place? If so I might have to ask for one tomorrow when I see her.

[craigcd]

I had mine done at EFW, who sent it to my family doctor, who sent it to the surgeon.

[A2VR6]

Just so I am clear, you had to get the MRI still through your family doctor even though you got into the UofC place? If so I might have to ask for one tomorrow when I see her.

Correct. I think if you dont get one from your family doctor in the first place the U of C will ask your family doctor to get one done. If my memory serves me correctly my doctor actually asked for a MRI before i even saw the U of C knee clinic.

[The Cosworth]

I had mine done at EFW, who sent it to my family doctor, who sent it to the surgeon.


Correct. I think if you dont get one from your family doctor in the first place the U of C will ask your family doctor to get one done. If my memory serves me correctly my doctor actually asked for a MRI before i even saw the U of C knee clinic.

Perfect thanks gents. I've asked for an MRI referral to get on the list.

[The Cosworth]

I got into the UofC guys! Thank you so much for telling me to apply. My appointment is next week.

[A2VR6]

I got into the UofC guys! Thank you so much for telling me to apply. My appointment is next week.

best of luck! Glad you got in!

[Mitsu3000gt]

I got into the UofC guys! Thank you so much for telling me to apply. My appointment is next week.

Congrats, that is probably an ideal place for you to start your recovery. Will they handle the MRI there or is that still up to you?

[The Cosworth]

Congrats, that is probably an ideal place for you to start your recovery. Will they handle the MRI there or is that still up to you?

Not sure honestly. From what it sounds like I still do it myself if they recommend it. So I'm just waiting to see what they recommend first.

[The Cosworth]

Well had my appointment at the UofC this morning. First doc was like mmm maybe ACL. Second doc walks in. Said yeah for sure you've lost your acl. I said should I pay for an MRI to confirm? She said save your money. Well shit.

[Mitsu3000gt]

Well had my appointment at the UofC this morning. First doc was like mmm maybe ACL. Second doc walks in. Said yeah for sure you've lost your acl. I said should I pay for an MRI to confirm? She said save your money. Well shit.

Well at least you know. Your earlier description was consistent with an ACL tear but you never know for sure until you get checked out.

As someone who has no ACL in their left knee, once it healed, I don't even notice day-to-day. I do have to be careful with certain sports though and wear my brace. I'm still unsure if I want surgery or not as that comes with it's own set of risks.

Still not a terrible idea to get an MRI in my opinion - it just guarantees that the people trying to help you don't run into any surprises and they have all the information. If you have benefits that will cover it, I'd still do it personally.

[dimi]

Well had my appointment at the UofC this morning. First doc was like mmm maybe ACL. Second doc walks in. Said yeah for sure you've lost your acl. I said should I pay for an MRI to confirm? She said save your money. Well shit.

The matter is always further complicated due to swelling, which takes a while to settle inside your knee, and makes it hard to assess using those ligament tests.

MRI is preferable and I would spend the money. However, if there is structural damage to your knee and you’re very active, I would probably opt for having surgery anyway, or at least a scope to repair/clean up any meniscus damage.

As well, once you start going down the “knee road", it can become a pervasive issue. I would rethink your hobbies and activities to promote longevity, and pick up biking and yoga.

Good luck.

[Mitsu3000gt]

Just to add to my above comment, I don't remember if I mentioned it before or not, but my MRI revealed two things that no doctor/physio could tell with a traditional or manual exam. For $675 I think it's worth it to get it done regardless.

[A2VR6]

+2 to the getting the MRI reccomendation. You'll know for sure and down the road if you do choose to go down the road of surgury it will be good to have.

[The Cosworth]

Well final diagnosis. Pretty much I tore my ACL and that I damaged the bone on the end of my femur and tibia from a plant and twist, usually happens with an ACL tear. And I had some patellar damage which also happens.

Got into banff sports med for surgery.

[The Cosworth]

Final update, last week I went in for ortho and they poked around. They replaced my ACL with my hamstring tendon and looked around and saw that I did nothing else that needed repairing. So feet up at home and hobbling around for the next few weeks.

UCAKIC / Banff Sports Med were fantastic.

[killramos]

Rough. I’m in a similar boat this week, had a ligament re attached in my ankle.

TV and video games for a few weeks haha.

[The Cosworth]

Rough. I’m in a similar boat this week, had a ligament re attached in my ankle.

TV and video games for a few weeks haha.

Yeah I've been trying too but my kids are obsessed every time I pull out my xbox controller. :cry:

[AndyL]

Nice! Glad Banff worked out.

Now the hard part of following doctor and physio instructions :rofl:

[Mitsu3000gt]

Final update, last week I went in for ortho and they poked around. They replaced my ACL with my hamstring tendon and looked around and saw that I did nothing else that needed repairing. So feet up at home and hobbling around for the next few weeks.

UCAKIC / Banff Sports Med were fantastic.

If I elect to get mine repaired, that is exactly what I was told would happen (replaced with hamstring). They told me I can walk that same day (with a knee brace) and to use crutches if needed. Did you get the same instruction or do you need to keep your feet up all the time?

Also how did they freeze you if you don't mind my asking?

Years ago when my brother had his ACL replaced, I think they did things differently because he had one of those Velcro casts on his entire leg up to his crotch and was basically forced to lie down for 6 months.

I'm strongly considering just getting it over with this Winter when I am less active anyway.

Glad you seem to be happy with everything :thumbsup:

[The Cosworth]

If I elect to get mine repaired, that is exactly what I was told would happen (replaced with hamstring). They told me I can walk that same day (with a knee brace) and to use crutches if needed. Did you get the same instruction or do you need to keep your feet up all the time?

Also how did they freeze you if you don't mind my asking?

Years ago when my brother had his ACL replaced, I think they did things differently because he had one of those Velcro casts on his entire leg up to his crotch and was basically forced to lie down for 6 months.

I'm strongly considering just getting it over with this Winter when I am less active anyway.

Glad you seem to be happy with everything :thumbsup:

I'll send you a PM with my number if you have more questions but I'll add to it here.

- I asked about the hamstring. According to my surgeon it is the least disruptive to do hamstring with the least amount of long term issues. She said after she took 8mm for me.
- I could put 50% or so weight on it for the first week, it was definitely stiff and needed the crutches. They want you to start trying to 'flatten' it (extension), plus doing flexion and ankle pumps.
- Today (day 6) I've been able to go onto a cane. It is sore though and quite swollen still. I'm on my feet maybe an hour a day at most.
- I 100% recommend the chrio pack. It has helped a lot.
- Day 5 I could take off my tensor bandage. Only thing left is stitches and ster-strips. It was very tight and swollen. I got to shower though which was awesome.
- For me (and YMMV) they gave me two options. 1st is an epidural'ish type freezing. 2nd was a general. General needs intubated and longer in the hospital. I chose epidural. She put me to sleep after the epidural took effect. Woke up in recovery chatting up a storm I guess.

Yeah I work from home right now and my sports are cancelled so it was perfect time for me.

[killramos]

Fuck me that sounds quick and easy.

I have 5 more weeks in this stupid cast for an ankle ligament...

[The Cosworth]

Fuck me that sounds quick and easy.

I have 5 more weeks in this stupid cast for an ankle ligament...

Yeah I joked with my Surgeon that it is the oil changes of surgeries and she laughed and agreed. There were 4 of us in a room all bullshitting and chatting. I liked Banff for that, all younger sports stuff. One dude was a MB'er, one was on the Alberta Ski Team. Can't remember the other guy, I was drugged up good.

It was my first major surgery. Nothing quite like walking down the hall into the OR. Was intimidating as shit.

[Mitsu3000gt]

I'll send you a PM with my number if you have more questions but I'll add to it here.

- I asked about the hamstring. According to my surgeon it is the least disruptive to do hamstring with the least amount of long term issues. She said after she took 8mm for me.
- I could put 50% or so weight on it for the first week, it was definitely stiff and needed the crutches. They want you to start trying to 'flatten' it (extension), plus doing flexion and ankle pumps.
- Today (day 6) I've been able to go onto a cane. It is sore though and quite swollen still. I'm on my feet maybe an hour a day at most.
- I 100% recommend the chrio pack. It has helped a lot.
- Day 5 I could take off my tensor bandage. Only thing left is stitches and ster-strips. It was very tight and swollen. I got to shower though which was awesome.
- For me (and YMMV) they gave me two options. 1st is an epidural'ish type freezing. 2nd was a general. General needs intubated and longer in the hospital. I chose epidural. She put me to sleep after the epidural took effect. Woke up in recovery chatting up a storm I guess.

Yeah I work from home right now and my sports are cancelled so it was perfect time for me.

This is great info, thank you.

[The Cosworth]

This is great info, thank you.

Haha no worries, only change. I went to the cane too fast. Swollen up like a balloon last night. Back to crutches and more icing.

[The Cosworth]

Update, 6 weeks post, bit sore once and a while, if I walk too much get a bit of a limp. Otherwise doing fine, don't even notice the limp anymore, can go up and down stairs.