German Luxury Performance Car Reliability

[Gman.45]

In a couple months the missus and I need to decide if we're keeping our LC500 or not. It's been a fantastic car, but we may not buy out this one.

I/We have had a lot of performance cars over the years. I've never had a higher end luxury/performance German car though, such as a Merc, BMW, Audi or Porsche. Have a great hook up through Audi, a high school friend/exchange student that boarded with us is a President with Audi North America,Micha Diepenbrock, and have considered getting an R8 that way. Almost did it, but the Lexus LC500 was 1/2 the cost pretty much. There are TONS of AMG, BMW M, Audi, and Porsche cars in $$$ striking distance should we walk from the LC500.

My issue is, everywhere on this forum and others, it seems the current sentiment is "German cars now have shit reliability across the board". IE everyone shouts out warnings to people requesting advice on buying such a car when its warranty has recently expired. There is also the "to get a nice interior, you must purchase one of these cars, all others have shit interiors" mantra. So, in order to get a good car with nice interior, I have to be prepared for potentially brutal reliability issues and costs once my warranty is up. IE keeping such a German car has huge inherent risk, at least according to all the forums.

When exactly did this happen with higher end German luxury/performance cars? I remember 15 -20 years ago when I couldn't afford such cars, but reading everything I could find about them, so many stories of rich Arabs buying AMG/M cars and driving them for 100s of thousands of kms and never doing one bit of maintenance even sometimes skipping oii changes, and just driving said cars until they died, which was usually after insane milarge and use. Where did that reputation go, and wtf happened - why is the reputation now the inverse of this?

The missus has really had a pull to join the "one of us, one of us" crowd and pick up a newer used low KM Tesla S P100D. Me, not so much, one of the great new 911s, various amazing AMG, and even some of the model Ms out and coming out shortly, is what I have my sights on. What am I getting myself into though long term, should we plan on keeping such a car. Is it 100% best option to 2 or 3 year lease, and then just not give AF about reliability/warranty expiration issues? Or is the Porsche 911 get a pass on the shit long term reliability issues the AMG/M seem to have reputation wise (based on the last model 911 reliability, as the new one just came out this year and there is no real data on long term obviously).

I know there are TONS of drivers on Beyond that drive such German/Euro cars, mods and long term members. Am I worrying to much about forum talk, opinions, and reputations, or is really something to this "crap reliability long term" deal. The LC500 has been, and is, a fantastic, and reliable, summer car. Great, albeit a little odd interior, amazing looking body/lines, good performance, and one of the best sounding stock exhaust out there, I'd put the car up against anything on that score. I/We do like to change things up frequently, and again, I've always wanted, and never have had, that AMG/M/Audi German car - and I want it for next summer season. Plan on buying some other vehicles/etc shortly too, but this is the primary question and concern, as the others have all pretty much been decided, and cost much, much less (ie a Miata or BRZ/86, updated GM Truck, etc).

Budget, 80 to 140k, purchase or lease...Advice?

[rage2]

I buy a lot of German (MB) cars. So completely anecdotal experiences here.

2019 MB E53 Coupe - 1 year into it, the car fired up a shit ton of warnings about 48V battery error on the road and asked me to pull over immediately. Shut down and car and turned it back on and that was it. Went to dealer, scanned, said "abnormal voltage". Guessing it was a sensor problem. Error never came back.

2018 MB E400 Wagon - First month, connector came loose under seat (maybe I kicked it) and heated seat stopped working. Fixed under warranty. First summer, rear passenger door sticks if it's exposed to the sun for 30-60 mins. Dealer relubricated and fixed.

2015 MB GLA45 - bunch of CEL every time I travelled to BC in the boonies. Scan shows misfires, always goes away when I leave. Chalking it up to shitty fuel quality.

2015 MB B250 - Zero issues.

2012 MB CLS550 - Zero issues.

2012 MB C63 Black Series AMG - DRL was not working. Apparently I triggered a recall, as all Canadian C63 Black Series was coded incorrectly. With that said, the engine had a design flaw, and I was hesitant to keep this under warranty, hence selling the car.

2010 C63 AMG - Don't remember having any issues at all.

2010 B200 - Don't remember any issues at all.

With that said, I've had a lot of luck with MB cars, but I have had friends with pretty much the same car with much more severe issues. I won't name names, they can post if they want to.

[Mitsu3000gt]

The problem is everyone's experiences (including mine) are small sample sizes and anecdotal. For every horror story there is also a guy who has 300,000kms and no issues. Also keep in mind people who have had problems are many times more likely to be vocal about it than those who have no issues, and that is no different for cars.

I have owned 2 Audi S4's (2000 and 2006) and my parents have owned 3 different BMW's collectively over 15+ years and hundreds of thousands of KM and none of us have ever done anything other than routine/scheduled maintenance. My 2010 Honda Civic had more issues than my 2000 S4 that was running modified for over 130,000 KM haha. Talk to someone else though and they may have had the complete opposite experience, swearing off X brand forever.

Like any car, performance variants and lease-backs are usually beat on a lot harder, so statistically they will probably have more issues. That goes for any vehicle though. If you buy new obviously this is a non-issue.

Since leasing is an option, you can maintain full optionality (keep, return at end, early return, etc.) while taking essentially zero risk over the term of the lease, and unless you keep your cars forever or drive crazy amounts of KM, it is usually the better financial decision anyway.

I say buy what makes you happy, and it's unlikely you will regret it. Sounds like you're at a good point in life where money isn't a major concern, and if buying a nice German car will put the biggest smile on your face every time you drive it, go for it.

The biggest issue with an $80-140K budget is actually picking something - you have a ridiculous amount of amazing choices and you should just start test driving everything until you find "the one". Personally I'd probably get something like an RS6 Avant or 992 911. The only thing for sure is I'd be leasing.

[killramos]

2014 BMW M235i

Vibrations wore away coating for my fuel cap sensor which threw a code, BMW shorted something trying to fix it which locked up the car (all happened at the shop). Was fixed the next day. I think there was a fuel pump recall somewhere in there again fixed in warranty. N55 engine. Had the car for 3 years.

2016 MB C63S AMG

Didn’t start one time, gave it 10 minutes, pressed the start button a bunch of times and it fired up. Very unnerving but never happened again. Aside from that nothing but oil changes in 3 years of ownership.

Not really the same but the dash on my 07 GTI died, replaced under CPO warranty along with a seized fan. CPO majorly paid out for me on that one but otherwise was deadly reliable.

I have had nothing but luck with my German cars. Have had way worse issues with Honda’s and Toyota’s actually lol.

Personally a next gen M3 (awd & competition spec with a few gaudy individual extras) is my shortlist for my next toy in a couple years. Driving German gives me 0 anxiety whatsoever. Now my GM? That fucker got an extended warranty lmao

[JustinL]

I pretty much have only bought out of warranty German cars because the reputation makes them depreciate pretty bad when the warranty is nearing its end. I do my own wrenching so I'm almost never at the dealer. Oil, filters, and brakes are a given. Here's my list of extras on my German daily drivers.

'08 Touareg (still own): 250k+ Km. No engine problems other than a CEL for aging O2 sensors. Broke the driveshaft bearing support which I guess is quite common. Otherwise nothing. One of the best vehicles I've ever owned.

'13 B8.5 S4 (still own): 115K Km Both front wheel bearings.

'02 E46 M3 (sold): 200K+ km. 2 Alternators, rear springs, oil pressure valve, cooling system refresh, ignition coils, 1st gear synchro, fuel pump. I miss this car and it is still going strong somewhere up here in Edmonton.

[2002civic]

Not performance cars, but my history:

01 BMW E46 330 - random CEL but never any major issues

08 Audi A4 - CEL came on once for a faulty sensor, otherwise a perfect car

18 A4 - no issues in the year or so we had it

19 SQ5 - no issues since we bought in December

I've worked for VW in Calgary and Audi in Australia and while we see the "worst of the worst" it has never stopped me form purchasing. Any brand will have horror stories at the dealerships, and as long as they take care of you (which a purchase in that price range should) even a worst case scenario shouldn't matter.

Go Audi if you have that kind of connection. If it has a problem I'm sure that person can get you a buyback/sick loan car if you run into issues, not that I think you would.

Maintain them and drive them hard and they are great vehicles.

[you&me]

I've mostly owned German cars and - touch wood - have not had any bad experiences. I tend to buy new or very nearly new (<12 months old; <~2k km), and usually don't keep them that long, but have never had a problem with any of the "performance cars", even those thought to be prone to problems like my B7 RS4 and V10 M6... Ironically, the most troublesome car I've had was my wife's GL350, but it's also the only car we've kept for as long as we did and it out of warranty. I've also had various 911s over the last 15 or so years and never had any issues... though no 992 yet - I'll be waiting for the '21s.

Completely anecdotal, but I'm with Killramos - 0 anxiety or worries about owning a new(er) German car, especially if you buy (near) new and unload it while there's still warranty.

[flipstah]

I’d only worry about electronics and sensors as the car ages.

My 2010 E550 auto brake kept going off when the sun hits the sensor in sunrises so turned that shit off. My Audi S3 height sensor got fucked due to potholes. It’s been running good to-date, mechanically. 136k kms

Have to do wheel bearings on the S3 soon but typical consumables are VW parts bin so meh. Audi engines are notorious for carbon buildup so you have to walnut blast the valves for high mileage cars (like mine which I have to look up how... seems ‘easy’ with carb cleaner and scrubbing?)

Old Audi had some weird stuff like timing chains in the back of the engine but had plastic tensioned (B6-B7 S4) or the Biturbo allroad first gen. So be on the look out for those.

F10 M5 has hot turbo issues and needs excess cooling so much that the fans drain the battery. Eats up oil too.

911 seems to be the safe bet supercar and recommended by a lot of people (online but I’msure owners here can validate if true)

It seems more expensive to service because the parts are more expensive than Japanese counterparts but since technology is moving up quickly, it’s becoming nil. Labor is roughly the same at 100ish per hr if you want a good one

[npham]

The real question is, can you get us a group buy on some R8's?

We've own quite a few German cars and never had any real issues. The biggest thing we ran into was because of the diesel gate with our A3 TDI, but Glenmore Audi went above and beyond for us. They parked our car on their lot, while we waited for the diesel outcome/Takata airbag parts and gave us new cars (A7/A4/Q5) to drive every 6 months or so. Most of my issues are around tires that love finding screws, nails, etc. twice a year.

BMW dealerships have been the worst to deal with. Mercedes (Downtown) and Audi (Glenmore) have been significantly better for me. However, servicing with Audi means long wait times to get in (2-4 weeks) and even longer if you want a loaner.

[Gman.45]

This is great, thanks for all the responses so far. I hope more post their experiences and opinions.

I should have been a bit more clear in the OP - I guess where I (we) are at is I do like to purchase cars that are a year or two, even three years old, for the obvious reasons that everyone else has doing so, having someone else eat the depreciation. The trouble with this is obviously the warranty is going to be nearly out, at least the bumper to bumper coverage, with usually only powertrain left for a couple years (sometimes full coverage depending on what the owner put on the car). Leasing new you dodge this, but then you eat the depreciation IF you decide to buy the leased vehicle out, which is the position we're in with the LC500, even though it's held its value reasonably well.

So, that's the "what do I do" question. Should we find a few year old-ish AMG/Audi/Porsche and purchase it, taking advantage of the depreciation, but having the risk of having to pay $$$ for any issues should they arise when the warranty runs out in short order, or just lease new as we did with the Lexus after selling the GTR.

Missus wants a Tesla model S, and wants to purchase it a couple/few years old with low km, and risk it regarding fixy fixy/warranty, plus she knows a Tesla "guy" from a friend of a friend (I put NO stock in this "guy" being able to expedite or even fix in a non timely fashion, any potential future problems with such a Tesla car, which infuriates her when I bring this up in our discussions over the new car...which means she likely thinks I'm right...hah).

I want to either lease a new 992 911 (good call whoever recommended that), or purchase - with a fair bit of nervousness - an AMG sedan or similar Audi car that's 2 or 3 years old with lower KM. LC500 was and is very, very good, we were tempted to keep it, but I/we still like to change things up and try out different vehicles.

[Buster]

Keep the LC500, those things are awesome.

The Germans will never be as reliable. I've found mine to be fine, but all the brands have had catastrophic problems with some models. And they are more expensive to maintain on a regular basis as well.

[flipstah]

If you do a PPI and budget based on the common problem(s), you’ll be fine.

I have no comment on lease vs. finance but that has been covered extensively in previous posts in this forum.


Keep the LC500, those things are awesome.

The Germans will never be as reliable. I've found mine to be fine, but all the brands have had catastrophic problems with some models. And they are more expensive to maintain on a regular basis as well.

True. An oil change on an Audi is 200$ at the dealership; 50$ alone for 5W40 at AutoValue (to which I still don’t know how some places can do oil + filter for dirt cheap)

[ThePenIsMightier]

...

'02 E46 M3 (sold): 200K+ km. 2 Alternators, rear springs, oil pressure valve, cooling system refresh, ignition coils, 1st gear synchro, fuel pump. I miss this car and it is still going strong somewhere up here in Edmonton.

While none of those issues are catastrophic, it's pretty unreasonable to have two alternator failures in that mileage and unacceptable in less than 20 years. Quite odd for the fuel pump in that frame, as well.

[JustinL]

While none of those issues are catastrophic, it's pretty unreasonable to have two alternator failures in that mileage and unacceptable in less than 20 years. Quite odd for the fuel pump in that frame, as well.

Yeah I agree the S54 engine vibrates alternators to bits and that is certainly a flaw. It's a super common failure on these engines. That car gave me more trouble than any of the other ones, but it actually had soul. They are easy things to fix if you can turn a wrench, so I never really minded too much and gave me an excuse to upgrade stuff. But I was younger and had more time then too! I also lost a catalytic converter early on in my ownership too, forgot about that one.

For the OP, Have a look at the 991 or 992 series. They have a great reputation for being well built and great drivers. The base models are also plenty of car and depreciation is pretty good if that is a concern. Like you mentioned the warranty doesn't always cover what you need it to. When my S4 lost its first wheel bearing it was still under warranty, but the dealer wouldn't cover it as it's considered a wear item even at 70,000km.

[flipstah]

An alternator getting vibrated to bits. That's a new one.

[Buster]

My 2008 BMW 535XI wagon was the worst for me. Numerous issues, including a design flaw in the roof drainage system which caused water to enter the rear hatch compartment in the rain. Was a chronic issue with almost all of the wagons. BMW ignored it. They put the numerous computers for the car in the rear spare wheel storage area, which had no drainage. If you weren't careful your rear wheel wells would fill with water and short your computers for a $12K touch.

My 2012 GL350 was okay, but replacing air suspension in MBs is not fun. Probably $10k in warranty work overall for that car over the years.

My 2017 AMG GTS had to have its carbon driveshaft replaced. That was a $12k part lol. They de-laminated at speed. Thanks warranty!

[flipstah]

My 2008 BMW 535XI wagon was the worst for me. Numerous issues, including a design flaw in the roof drainage system which caused water to enter the rear hatch compartment in the rain. Was a chronic issue with almost all of the wagons. BMW ignored it. They put the numerous computers for the car in the rear spare wheel storage area, which had no drainage. If you weren't careful your rear wheel wells would fill with water and short your computers for a $12K touch.



Oh good to know! I was looking at those for a daily winter

[JustinL]

An alternator getting vibrated to bits. That's a new one.
It might not be vibration that kills them, could be the high RPM, or heat. I tried replacing just the voltage regulator, but no dice. Something failed deeper in the alternator both times.

[ThePenIsMightier]

LoL at wheel bearings being acceptable to wear out at 70,000km!
I used to push those FAGs out of old Volkswagens but it was more like 210,000km. Those were the days. Stacking my nuts on a FAG and really getting some leverage to push them through those tight holes.

[vengie]

LoL at wheel bearings being acceptable to wear out at 70,000km!
I used to push those FAGs out of old Volkswagens but it was more like 210,000km. Those were the days. Stacking my nuts on a FAG and really getting some leverage to push them through those tight holes.

If you pounded them out enough the hole wouldn't be so tight.
They would just slide in, sometimes a little sloppy.. but at this point you take what you can get.

[Buster]

Oh good to know! I was looking at those for a daily winter

The electric water pumps were also basically wear items.

I'd avoid that car.

[heavyD]

I've owned an M2 and the current X3M Comp and I haven't had a single warranty issue with either but I also haven't owned either long term. The M2 in particular is a pretty bulletproof vehicle as there are few major issues and many owners have gone high mileage without issue. I believe the Germans for the most part have improved to the point where they are no less reliable than most mainstream brands outside of Toyota but out of warranty you have to live with the fact that parts and service will be more expensive, especially when you get into the high performance or more exotic models. On another forum a poster listed the warranty repair receipt for a water pump on his 2019 911 and it involved removing the rear bumper, spoiler, exhaust system, and dropping the engine. Water pumps are typically one of the items that fail over time so you can imagine that fixing that out of warranty would be quite the expense.

[RX_EVOLV]

We've been relatively lucky with ours *knock on wood*

2015 BMW X5 3.5i - This car was 2.5yo when we bought it, which had already depreciated >45% from new. Crazy. It ended up being cheaper than a new highlander and with 1.5 years of warranty + free services left, so we figured why not. It's at 88km now and zero issues beside regular maintenance. No record of any warranty repair work from previous owner as well at the dealership where it was serviced, but we bought a 3rd party extended warranty for until 2023 just in case.

2009 BMW 335i Cab - We have this car for almost 4 years now and no major issues beside the convertible top would occasionally get 'stuck' and we would have to manually adjust it a little bit before it can fully open or close. This might be because we don't drive the car often and the previous owner only had to top down once a year at most, and the car is only driven during the summer occasionally and never seen rain or snow. Other than that, some minor electrical issues like if we try to close all the windows at ones, sometimes the passenger side window would go back down after it reaches the top.

2013 Porsche Cayenne S - This car has been a bit more problematic. The 'seconds' needle on the dash clock fell off. Minor electric issues with seat adjustment at startup. Air suspensions would completely fail during cold winter (<-30C), rendering the car completely undriveable. After every car wash the warning light for burnt light/marker would come on for a couple of days.

2016 VW Golf R - including this since it was made in Germany. 2 warranty repairs during my 3 year of ownership. First for a bolt on the door hinge coming loose, and second for a headlight bulb burning out prematurely.

2013 Merc GLK350 - No major issues during the first 4 years, then the in-laws bought it from us and all downhill from there. Powered trunk won't open (repaired twice), blind spot monitors broke, rear windshield wiper motor broke, and some other electrical stuff. Enough issues that we probably won't consider a used Mercedes in the near future.

[yipb]

I recently bought 2012 e550 coupe. Car has been great so far but only time will tell. I have only had Japanese cars in the past so reliability is definitely in the back of my mind.

Regarding warranty - some manufacturers allows you to purchase extended warranty as long as the bumper to bumper coverage has not expired. Might be worth looking into if you wanted to buy a 1-2 year old car.

[rage2]

An alternator getting vibrated to bits. That's a new one.
Mine went twice on my HPF M3. The HPF kit did some funky shit when it was running on battery only and no alternator. Dumped fuel like a motherfucker, rolling coal top down.

[killramos]

My opinion, with BMW in particular, is its not that they are any more or unreliable than most other vehicles maybe even on the side of being quite reliable. However when things do need to be fixed they are very expensive to fix.

Expensive to fix =/= unreliable

Porsche is similar.

Or you can buy Italian, which is both expensive to fix AND unreliable. Haha

[Xtrema]

I only got burn real bad on 2010 S4. Thermostat shit show means I got a new engine 6 months in.

After that, it's basically thermostat/waterpump every 1-2 years. Ditched that shit and been with MB since.


2016 C450 only had rear brake pad (premature wear due to vectoring) and battery replaced under warranty. Car was solid.

2020 GLC43, only infotainment has locked up and rebooted on me once so far. And the 9sp sometimes get rough in Comfort mode for no god damn reason. Not huge deals.

[revelations]

You need to decide on a make first, then you can start getting picky about which models and years are better/worse. Some models will have issues that are well documented and fixable, before they cause problems.

For eg. I have an old CLK55 AMG that is touted to be one of the most reliable and cheapest to maintain MB of the last 20 years. Its still an MB though, so there are issues of course, but in COMPARISON to other models of that vintage, its very decent.

[Team_Mclaren]

the germans will never be as reliable. I've found mine to be fine, but all the brands have had catastrophic problems with some models. And they are more expensive to maintain on a regular basis as well.

x2.

[shakalaka]

I've had a few Germans and I personally don't recall ever having massive issues. Sure a car or two had to be sent to the shop for this and that work but I've never worried about reliability when buying a car that's going to be under warranty for several years.

[killramos]

I've had a few Germans and I personally don't recall ever having massive issues. Sure a car or two had to be sent to the shop for this and that work but I've never worried about reliability when buying a car that's going to be under warranty for several weeks.

Ftfy

[SkiBum5.0]

A bit of a theme in this thread: “bought a German car, it wasn’t too bad, only needed warranty a few times.”

The real joy of Euro ownership comes when you get the out of warranty bill. 2014 X5 comes to mind a friend just sold. Prior to selling it he got a bill for the valve cover gaskets, an electrical fault in the ECU causing random misfire and rear window regulator. Bill was north of $10k. Another friend with a 2013 X5M went through 3 in Colorado through Lemon Law. Finally gave up and walked away.

For the record I really like E39, e46 and E9x M3’s. But that’s the last BMW I would touch. MB seems better in later years but, again, you need to know what to look for in the used market.

[killramos]

I mean I have had more warranty recalls on my Sierra in the last year than I have had cumulatively on my German cars lol

[SkiBum5.0]

I mean I have had more warranty recalls on my Sierra in the last year than I have had cumulatively on my German cars lol
First year of the new model? For German stuff, you just have to be more careful with used stuff. For me it’s only certain models, full service records etc. and then find a good Indy shop or get good with a wrench.

[revelations]

I would argue that, anytime you buy a serious money vehicle out of warranty (say, over 25,000$) on a Euro vehicle - you have to be a) at least familiar with common issues (eg. vehicle specific forum) and b) have a shop or a mechanic ready - otherwise its just a roll of dice based on MY, make and model.

[ThePenIsMightier]

This thread fucking rules BtW.
Such an excellent resource of people's real issues and non sugar coated experiences.

Please give the OP some +Rep along with me!

[flipstah]

What helped with the purchase as well:

I’ve only bought from a trusted dealership like Distinctive Collection or MB for my used cars so that helps give comfort that they’ll take good stuff and be (relatively) good to you if shit hits the fan. Usually came with service records, Carfax, and no pressure tactics.

So that may help strengthen your purchase decision, OP. Best of luck!

[ercchry]

What helped with the purchase as well:

I’ve only bought from a trusted dealership like Distinctive Collection or MB for my used cars so that helps give comfort that they’ll take good stuff and be (relatively) good to you if shit hits the fan. Usually came with service records, Carfax, and no pressure tactics.

So that may help strengthen your purchase decision, OP. Best of luck!

Whatever mental tactics help you sleep at night :rofl:

M3: $1.50-$2/km... didn’t even get around to the rod bearings

[flipstah]

93138

Gman.45

Do it and you’re off to a good start lmao

[Gman.45]

93138

Gman.45

Do it and you’re off to a good start lmao

What could possibly go wrong?


Thanks for all the posts so far, a lot of good info and data and consider - as per the OP, still have a bit of time to make my mind, any/all advice is read, considered, and appreciated (still).

[ragu]

Whatever mental tactics help you sleep at night :rofl:

M3: $1.50-$2/km... didn’t even get around to the rod bearings

I’ve only heard good things (other than rod bearings) what were the main items on your E90?

[ercchry]

I’ve only heard good things (other than rod bearings) what were the main items on your E90?

Throttle actuators, some emissions pump that was replaced 3x and still tossed a code, secondary air pumps (did block offs and tune vs replace) exhaust leak... other bits and bobs that I don’t currently recall... well over $10k (at cost on parts + labour) then a good $15k in depreciation too... $100+ oil changes (motul at 8L/change) and many, many L of premium and rear tires :rofl:

[SkiBum5.0]

I’ve only heard good things (other than rod bearings) what were the main items on your E90?

Valve Cover gaskets on low mile ones, I replaced two Xenon headlights on the two I owned.