Professional Liability / Errors Omission Insurance?

[schurchill39]

Does anyone have any recommendations for professional liability and/or errors omission insurance in Canada? Or can help with explaining the difference between the two?

With APEGA's new regulations on document authentication I'm a bit worried what that means for liability on contractors and consultants like myself and am struggling to figure out what I need and what it costs. Most people I talk to are very anti APEGA so I haven't been able to have many productive conversations surrounding the subject. I get asked to do the random one off project from time to time outside of my industry so I want to make sure I'm covered for when ever those pop up.

[ThePenIsMightier]

I'll ask someone who should know next week.
APEGA's new "stamp fucking everything" policy shouldn't be increasing your risk. It's just formalizing and helping members realize they have responsibility for those items. But, they always did.
I'm not worried about someone building something that I stamped as Issued For Bid...

[ExtraSlow]

I think Toole Pete gave me a quote for them, back when I was asking for something completely different. I never did carry E&O coverage, but I also was careful to never practice engineering in the legal sense.

[killramos]

I'll ask someone who should know next week.
APEGA's new "stamp fucking everything" policy shouldn't be increasing your risk. It's just formalizing and helping members realize they have responsibility for those items. But, they always did.
I'm not worried about someone building something that I stamped as Issued For Bid...

I don’t even own a stamp. I’d actually be pretty ok if Apega decided I wasn’t a real engineer and take away my letters. I could care less these days.

[prae]

I don’t even own a stamp. I’d actually be pretty ok if Apega decided I wasn’t a real engineer and take away my letters. I could care less these days.

Every year I pay my dues I think the same thing :werd:

[killramos]

Every year I pay my dues I think the same thing :werd:

If I actually paid them myself I would likely feel far more strongly

[ExtraSlow]

If I actually paid them myself I would likely feel far more strongly

Can confirm this.

[bjstare]

If I actually paid them myself I would likely feel far more strongly

:werd:

I haven't ever stamped something, and my company doesn't practice engineering as such. The day my company stops paying my dues, is the day I'm no longer a PEng.

[lasimmon]

Not to hijack the thread but rumblings are that all workover/completion/drilling/abandonment/whatever programs are supposed to be stamped now and follow the new dumb process APEGA came out with. Any truth to that?

[killramos]

Dunno, did anyone read the document authentication standards bs?

[lasimmon]

Dunno, did anyone read the document authentication standards bs?

I watched the video/did the online thing. Was a waste of time.

[ExtraSlow]

Not to hijack the thread but rumblings are that all workover/completion/drilling/abandonment/whatever programs are supposed to be stamped now and follow the new dumb process APEGA came out with. Any truth to that?

I think they were always supposed to be "authenticated" by a Peng.

[JPB]

I'm with Toole Peet, they found me quotes from three different underwriters and I went with CFC. I have $2MM of E&O and professional liability for around $4k a year. The policy also covers my general liability and a ton of other stuff like cyber attacks. It was a real eye opener setting this up and learning about everything.

My agent was pretty good at answering my questions and guiding me through the process. I have to carry it for the type of work I do, so I built a few bucks an hour into my rate to pay for it.

[ExtraSlow]

Toole Peet was very helpful for answering questions for me. good service there. Never set foot in the office, which was pretty rare back in the day.

[pheoxs]

Has anyone paused their APEGA membership before? I quit my day job and am running my own startup. Don't need to stamp anything and/or my business won't be licensed.

Curious what the ramifications are and if its worth it or better to just keep paying the dues. I still do enough continuing education to keep up on the development hours. Just curious if its as easy as pausing/starting or if its a process to get re-activated.

Or on the opposed end of the spectrum would it be worth it to try and get my business licensed?

[killramos]

I worry that they would try and declare you as no longer fit to practice and ask you to write the FE or something.

[ExtraSlow]

Has anyone paused their APEGA membership before? I quit my day job and am running my own startup. Don't need to stamp anything and/or my business won't be licensed.

Curious what the ramifications are and if its worth it or better to just keep paying the dues. I still do enough continuing education to keep up on the development hours. Just curious if its as easy as pausing/starting or if its a process to get re-activated.

They have the unadvertised "unemployed" option, which I think is halfway decent value. 25% or something? Also, the website is wrong, you can do this two years in a row.
https://www.apega.ca/members/dues/dues-reduction

[schurchill39]

Not to hijack the thread but rumblings are that all workover/completion/drilling/abandonment/whatever programs are supposed to be stamped now and follow the new dumb process APEGA came out with. Any truth to that?

The way I read the regulations I think a that any programs that direct work or contain technical information will definitely need to be stamped. This is for sure the case if they are prepared by an engineer, or within a group that has a permit to practice. That is essentially why I went down this rabbit hole because its a big part of what I do for a living. I am already seeing vendors send over technical documents that are stamped to shit, and a few of my larger clients have started stamping their programs to stay in line with the regulations. That being said I don't think any of us are under the impression that most of what we do is "real engineering" (in regards to writing programs) which is why its never really been done before. I don't see how having a program stamped vs not stamped would effect chargeable rates for consultants because I doubt most clients would care to pay more just because the guy (or gal) writing the program has a few letters after their name. However, I admit I am pretty soft and the threat of maybe losing my ability to practice has got me worried.

Thanks all for the replies so far. It sounds like Toole Pete is going to get a call from me in the new year.

[ExtraSlow]

Just email them, you are too young and good looking for the telephone.

On a only kinda related note, if I advise people in Texas on casing design, should I stamp that advice? Asking for a friend.

[ExtraSlow]

Agree 100%. Always thought this.

[ExtraSlow]

Dammit, mods remove the spam post now I look like I'm talking to myself. ***shakes fist at sky***

[JPB]

I'm with Toole Peet, they found me quotes from three different underwriters and I went with CFC. I have $2MM of E&O and professional liability for around $4k a year. The policy also covers my general liability and a ton of other stuff like cyber attacks. It was a real eye opener setting this up and learning about everything.

My agent was pretty good at answering my questions and guiding me through the process. I have to carry it for the type of work I do, so I built a few bucks an hour into my rate to pay for it.

Anyone else recently renew? Mine jumped to $5k from just under $4k. Seemed steep, but my agent checked a couple of other prices and it went up everywhere. Nothing like a 25% hike when business is slow as it is.

[JRSC00LUDE]

I could care less these days.

Prove it!

[killramos]

Prove it!

What did you have in mind?

[schurchill39]

Just email them, you are too young and good looking for the telephone.

So I did this and the quotes were everywhere from 4k-11k per year depending on the deductible and I'm still not entirely sure what I would actually be covered for. The agent I was emailing with was absolutely zero help despite saying I am completely new to this and need someone to spend some time with me explaining the different policies and coverage. She sent me a form to fill out and when I replied I asked to set up a phone call to go over it to make sure I filled things in properly as there were a few things I wasn't sure applied to me. There was follow up on her end besides a vague email with 4 prices listed and "let me know which one you'd like to go with". At the end of the day she was such a useless twat I just wrote off Toole and Peete entirely.

Now that I'm set up with my own permit to practice though I should get back on this though.

[98brg2d]

I've been using Aon for brokerage for years and years but I might switch to Ryder Insurance this year, they got me a good quote last year but the timing was off.

[schurchill39]

Just wanted to throw out an updated question, who are contractors going through for CGL? My wife got a new contract position for a major O&G company and her contract stipulates that they only require $1M CGL but I want to add on PL as well. I reached out to easycover.ca already but they are a bunch of dummies so looking for other options for CGL and PL

[98brg2d]

PLI is generally far more expensive than CGL and some companies won't provide one without the other (both ways) and some won't provide CGL to engineers/geologists who don't have PLI (even if they do not provide PLI).

She needs to go through a broker that deals with engineering companies regularly in order to get PLI. My previous recommendations of Ryder and Aon still stand. Maybe somebody else will chime in with additional options.

Edit: if she just wants CGL, I had a good rate with Intact a couple years ago, before bundling my CGL and PLI with Linx.

[ThePenIsMightier]

I think someone I know with a tiny Eng. Co. ended up having success with Rogers Insurance recently. It took awhile to mow down the BS, but I think they got there.

[98brg2d]

I think someone I know with a tiny Eng. Co. ended up having success with Rogers Insurance recently. It took awhile to mow down the BS, but I think they got there.

I've had recommendations for Rogers in the past, so they must be ok as well. I've never asked for any quotes from them though. Should be a good one to add to the list.

[schurchill39]

I've got Rogers looking into right now. They own Easy Cover and after sending him the email chain he couldn't see anything about my file would even raise his eyebrows except maybe they got scared with who she will be contracting to. He's going to work on something but doesn't see it being an issue so we will see.

I did reach out to Ryder and Toole Peet again for quotes and filled out both of their wild applications but haven't heard anything from Ryder since and Toole Peet is working with a backer in London so the time difference is slowing things down. I have a request in to Aon but no reply from them yet.

It just seems silly that its been such a process. I have a ton of friends and colleagues who are contractors and all of them have said the process was simple and straightforward. Hopefully we can get this figured out soon or I'll have to strong arm Bill into this line of insurance work.

[ThePenIsMightier]

I've got Rogers looking into right now. They own Easy Cover and after sending him the email chain he couldn't see anything about my file would even raise his eyebrows except maybe they got scared with who she will be contracting to. He's going to work on something but doesn't see it being an issue so we will see.

I did reach out to Ryder and Toole Peet again for quotes and filled out both of their wild applications but haven't heard anything from Ryder since and Toole Peet is working with a backer in London so the time difference is slowing things down. I have a request in to Aon but no reply from them yet.

It just seems silly that its been such a process. I have a ton of friends and colleagues who are contractors and all of them have said the process was simple and straightforward. Hopefully we can get this figured out soon or I'll have to strong arm Bill into this line of insurance work.

It seems something has changed within the last ~1 year that is making it far more difficult.

[schurchill39]

It seems something has changed within the last ~1 year that is making it far more difficult.

I asked the Toole Pete rep about it and she says there has been a huge surge in people contracting which has really slowed things down and made them evaluate each file way closer.