Wine - expensive vs cheap is there a difference?

[Manhattan]

Seems to be quite a bit of snobbery over it and there's plenty of evidence that even sommeliers and "experts" can't distinguish between expensive and cheap stuff in blind taste tests (especially when price is not made available). For the wine drinkers does price make a difference and is there much correlation between price and taste?

[killramos]

This should be a good one

[ThePenIsMightier]

LoL.
Yes, there is - without a doubt.

The thing is, it's not linear and that's the way all luxury items work. A Ferrari might be 20x more money than a Hyundai, but to say "it's 20x better" is kind of dumb.

Tomassi Amarone is maybe 5x more money than Copper Moon, but watch the debate on whether it's 3x better or 30x better.

[davidI]

Part of the problem in Canada is that prices get majorly skewed by tax and duties. Cheap bottles of foreign wine can be very expensive in Canada so two equally priced bottles are not necessarily equally priced in their countries of origin.

Here in Spain, you can get a very enjoyable bottle of wine for 5 Euros. I've bought wines up to 40 Euros here but honestly, even the best rated ones are not that different from our favourite cheapies.

Perhaps a good bottle can be 25% better in some cases, but pricier bottles can also taste worse than the cheap bottles. A lot depends on your pallete too - people can have very different impressions of the same wine.

There have been studies done that show people statistically are unable to pick the more expensive wine when given a blind tasting (I imagine the same test done with people knowing the price would lead to them preferring the more expensive wines due to our behavioural biases).

Edit: Sumarries of the studies...
https://www.wired.com/2011/04/should-we-buy-expensive-wine/
https://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2017-08/uob-we081417.php

[Manhattan]

That's exactly my point. Paying multiples of the price for a decent wine just doesn't seem worth it yet there's a huge industry dedicated to what amounts to be consumer deception yet it continues. I guess that's what marketing is in a nutshell. People pay hundreds of dollars for a pair of Nikes most of which is going to marketing but at least there's no denial that it's all about vanity. With expensive wine the deception seems to go deeper given that there's an illusion of value.

I was watching vids on Architectural Digest (all horribly pretentious) of rich dudes showing off their wine cellar/collections of incredibly expensive wines and the idea behind wine that expensive just seemed ridiculous.

[ercchry]

Would agree it’s hard to put a pure dollar value on this argument as depending on region, taxes, etc the cost can fluctuate.

An apples to apples comparison of same grapes, region/country more expensive tends to yield a better bottle for sure. Always outliers to this and I guess that’s what keeps wines interesting? The ever evolving search for the perfect balance of cost and taste.

The high end french market is a whole other animal though... sell god damn wine futures! First growth costs are exponentially higher than anything else, worth it? Well... they seem to appreciate, so to collect, probably... to drink? Doubt it

[swak]

Why buy a Porsche 911, why not just buy a VW Jetta?

[killramos]

The value of wine has a lot to do with scarcity and yield.

There is definitely a difference between wines, but I don’t pretend to be a sommelier to know how much fruit and sugar they put in an individual bottle.

Just try lots of different stuff and figure out what you like. Honestly unless you drink a fair amount of wine there is far more to try than you could ever want.

[ExtraSlow]

I have a very cheap palate, and I give evidence of that constantly, but yeah, there's a difference in wine that even I can taste. I can do do buy a $10 bottle of wine, and enjoy it, but the $25-45 bottles are noticeably better in most cases. Past that, you'd better be a wine enthusiast to notice the differences, and I admit I cannot.

[ThePenIsMightier]

... but I don’t pretend to be a sommelier ...

Me neither, although I'll try that for Halloween next year. I dressed up like a Somalian this year and that did not go over well!!

[killramos]

Me neither, although I'll try that for Halloween next year. I dressed up like a Somalian this year and that did not go over well!!

Pretending to be a sommelier can similarly backfire in spectacular fashion around here

[ercchry]

This is where tastings are fun...

This:

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Vs:

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Vs:

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All very noticeable leaps... events like this make it easier to compare too, this was purely Spain:

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[killramos]

I had someone complain that I served them gratis box wine from a novelty pumpkin at a party and that I should open a bottle of better stuff for her. She did not byob.

She didn’t get invited back. Also, wasn’t hot.

[The_Rural_Juror]

There's good wine and there's bad wine of course. Me? I prefer pop.

[davidI]

Why buy a Porsche 911, why not just buy a VW Jetta?

I wouldn't consider this an appropriate analogy given the specifications are obviously different. If you could drive a Porsche and a Jetta blindfolded you'd notice the difference in handling, response, sound, materials, etc.

If I gave you two glasses of wine that I selected at 2x price points 10x, I'd be surprised if you selected the more expensive one more than 6x.

- - - Updated - - -


This is where tastings are fun...

All very noticeable leaps... events like this make it easier to compare too, this was purely Spain:



Which of the 3 did you consider the best?

[Disoblige]

There's good wine and there's bad wine of course. Me? I prefer pop.
Pop can be expensive too, but you can drink all kinds as long as you disrespect your parents.

Here is a rocket fizz nutmeg Bavarian style root beer.
https://soda-emporium.com/FRESH-16oz-Rocket-Fizz-Nutmeg-Swinglid-Bavarian-Style-Root-Beer-P5925250.aspx

[ercchry]

Which of the 3 did you consider the best?

I believe this was a team effort, cause my writing isn’t that legible, especially after drinking :rofl:

96435

The pingus and Marques de caceres are tough to compare with that age difference though, something that old is so viscous that the mouthfeel is a real standout... well, for me at least, probably borderline over oxidized for some

[never]

There's good wine and there's bad wine of course. Me? I prefer pop.

Exactly...and to be safe for dinner parties, you're best off to bring some Pepsi and Ringdings.

[ExtraSlow]

If you really want to make enemies go take this discussion to the scotch thread. I don't have the balls for that.

[Darkane]

James Suckling. I let him choose my wines.

Watched his master class, decent info. I’m not a taste describer though.

What I do I buy any of the wines he scores 90+. You’ll find lots in the 92-95 range for mid teens on sale.

Highlander liquor store in seton is my go to for cheap, high point wines.

The grape is the most important thing for me. Cab sauv and merlots are my fav.

I have a 100pt brunello sitting for a special occasion. I’ll tell you then if high price is worth it hahaha.

[davidI]

I believe this was a team effort, cause my writing isn’t that legible, especially after drinking :rofl:

The pingus and Marques de caceres are tough to compare with that age difference though, something that old is so viscous that the mouthfeel is a real standout... well, for me at least, probably borderline over oxidized for some

Sweet. I'm near Ribera del Duero so Rioja wines are a bit sacrilege here but I'll track down that Marques de Caceres - I think it's quite common. Faustina's are also typically very good for the price - my in-laws serve it a lot at their restaurant in Marbella and typically bring 1.5L bottles when they come to visit.


If you really want to make enemies go take this discussion to the scotch thread. I don't have the balls for that.

Bring it on over. I'm a big fan of a lot of affordable whiskies and will shit all over some of the more recently popular whiskies that are decreasing in quality and increasing in price (Japanese, Laphroaig, Macallen, etc.)

[Buster]

guys, just post your vivino or cellartracker list and get this flex underway properly.

[Darkane]

Mi Terruno 2019
Uvas Malbec
Mendoza, Argentina
91 Points
James Suckling

This is a very serious style of Malbec at a ridiculously low price. Really fresh and delicious. You can't do better than this for under $10.

"A little tight, but very attractive cherry and orange-peel character. Medium body. Fresh finish."
- James Suckling

$9.49
Save Over 50%
(reg $19.99)

Right from my highlander boxing week flyer. That is a great wine for $10.

Those are the kinds of wines the “pros” can’t tell over a $100 bottle.

[ercchry]

guys, just post your vivino or cellartracker list and get this flex underway properly.

I’m awful at tracking anything, we use to do an event every other week at willowpark during event season in the before times... and this Spanish thing me is the only thing I seem to have successfully documented :rofl:

I’m also stuck in an Ilerian peninsula phase... just doesn’t have the same premium as the super Tuscans and Bordeaux tax. Find it harder and harder to justify the French and Italian prices

[Disoblige]

Anything under $18 and rated over 3.7 on vivino and I'm sold.
Never failed me so far :D

[ercchry]

Did a fridge audit:

Drank too much of the good bottles vs replenishing them, whoops
Appear to actually be drinking more Chilean wine currently?
French and Italy game is weak
The Kirkland Rioja wasn’t bad, haven’t tried the other one yet. tasted very familiar. Still trying to pinpoint what it’s a rebottling of, but seems like it should be a grand reserva based on the description? It’s pretty heavily oaked

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[killramos]

Is that some Instagram shit?

[ercchry]

Is that some Instagram shit?

Just for you guys :love:

But yes, I’ve been using layout to reduce amount of individual uploads today

[Buster]

I’m awful at tracking anything, we use to do an event every other week at willowpark during event season in the before times... and this Spanish thing me is the only thing I seem to have successfully documented :rofl:

I’m also stuck in an Ilerian peninsula phase... just doesn’t have the same premium as the super Tuscans and Bordeaux tax. Find it harder and harder to justify the French and Italian prices

Vivino is easy. Takes two seconds.

[ercchry]

Vivino is easy. Takes two seconds.

I know... I have it, just awful at keep up with it, I appear to have scanned 5 bottles over a 2 day span in April, and that’s about it haha. Think the GF’s is more complete... still have yet to actually bust it out at an event though

[The_Rural_Juror]

I have a cheapy Margaux next to a James Neal name plate that I am saving for ExtraSlow's birthday.

[Buster]

I know... I have it, just awful at keep up with it, I appear to have scanned 5 bottles over a 2 day span in April, and that’s about it haha. Think the GF’s is more complete... still have yet to actually bust it out at an event though

I just go full asshole mode nowadays and break it out right in the wine store.

[ThePenIsMightier]

Pretending to be a sommelier can similarly backfire in spectacular fashion around here

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[max_boost]

Pretending to be a sommelier can similarly backfire in spectacular fashion around here

Oh dang didn’t know you’ve been around that long lol that was a gem of a thread

[The_Rural_Juror]

Oh dang didn’t know you’ve been around that long lol that was a gem of a thread

Did someone get in trouble for pretending again? I missed out. :(

[Mitsu3000gt]

This is one of those things like high-end home theater cables and amplifiers - there's a lot of talk until people have to put their money where their mouth is, and that tells you everything you need to know. Some pretty big dollar amounts have been floated around and nobody ever accepts the challenge.

Controlled studies have shown many times that there is no real difference, at least not one that wine snobs and sommeliers are able to tell. There have been lots of blind tests on this - Coles notes is they fail every time to reliably tell a difference, and if asked to put their own money on the line they always decline, which proves they don't even believe it themselves. In some tests, participants were served the exact same glass of wine twice back-to-back and had dramatically different things to say haha.

Something like 90% of wine sold in the USA is in the $10-12 range, probably a bit higher for Canada just because of our insane liquor taxes. If there was an obvious difference in quality or taste for spending more, more people would gladly pay for it, just like any other product.

Expensive wine is usually either rare or old, not necessarily because it's supposed to taste better. Kind of like art in that sense, prices can be incredibly arbitrary.

I love wine and personally I've never had a wine that I really hated, but there are certainly some I like more than others. It is not hard to find 'good' wine between $10-20 in Canada IMO, and it's so subjective anyway that it's difficult to even make recommendations. All you can do is try as many as possible and see what you like yourself. Anyone who tells you they can reliably distinguish between cheap and expensive wine is full of shit, and they would never put their money where their mouth is in a blind test. There's really not a lot to debate on the topic, both blind testing and the wine market itself have given us all the data we need I think.

GM Sommeliers are probably the only ones that have a chance of doing well in a blind test and there are what, a couple hundred of those in the entire world? Everyone else is just like the rest of us haha.

[max_boost]

Did someone get in trouble for pretending again? I missed out. :(

Might have been before your time junior but now is your time to shine!!

- - - Updated - - -


This is one of those things like high-end home theater cables and amplifiers - there's a lot of talk until people have to put their money where their mouth is, and that tells you everything you need to know. Some pretty big dollar amounts have been floated around and nobody ever accepts the challenge.

Controlled studies have shown many times that there is no real difference, at least not one that wine snobs and sommeliers are able to tell. There have been lots of blind tests on this - Coles notes is they fail every time to reliably tell a difference, and if asked to put their own money on the line they always decline, which proves they don't even believe it themselves. In some tests, participants were served the exact same glass of wine twice back-to-back and had dramatically different things to say haha.

Something like 90% of wine sold in the USA is in the $10-12 range, probably a bit higher for Canada just because of our insane liquor taxes. If there was an obvious difference in quality or taste for spending more, more people would gladly pay for it, just like any other product.

Expensive wine is usually either rare or old, not necessarily because it's supposed to taste better. Kind of like art in that sense, prices can be incredibly arbitrary.

I love wine and personally I've never had a wine that I really hated, but there are certainly some I like more than others. It is not hard to find 'good' wine between $10-20 in Canada IMO, and it's so subjective anyway that it's difficult to even make recommendations. All you can do is try as many as possible and see what you like yourself. Anyone who tells you they can reliably distinguish between cheap and expensive wine is full of shit, and they would never put their money where their mouth is in a blind test. There's really not a lot to debate on the topic, both blind testing and the wine market itself have given us all the data we need I think.

Lol

[rage2]

I buy what tastes good to me. Some are $10 bottles, some are $80. So much personal preference involved with wine, sometimes I feel the experts just suck it up and forcibly pretend to like something haha.

[max_boost]

I only like Riesling and Dom. Do those count lol

[The_Rural_Juror]

I only like Riesling and Dom. Do those count lol

Snobs prefer reds.

[Buster]

This is one of those things like high-end home theater cables and amplifiers - there's a lot of talk until people have to put their money where their mouth is, and that tells you everything you need to know. Some pretty big dollar amounts have been floated around and nobody ever accepts the challenge.

Controlled studies have shown many times that there is no real difference, at least not one that wine snobs and sommeliers are able to tell. There have been lots of blind tests on this - Coles notes is they fail every time to reliably tell a difference, and if asked to put their own money on the line they always decline, which proves they don't even believe it themselves. In some tests, participants were served the exact same glass of wine twice back-to-back and had dramatically different things to say haha.

Something like 90% of wine sold in the USA is in the $10-12 range, probably a bit higher for Canada just because of our insane liquor taxes. If there was an obvious difference in quality or taste for spending more, more people would gladly pay for it, just like any other product.

Expensive wine is usually either rare or old, not necessarily because it's supposed to taste better. Kind of like art in that sense, prices can be incredibly arbitrary.

I love wine and personally I've never had a wine that I really hated, but there are certainly some I like more than others. It is not hard to find 'good' wine between $10-20 in Canada IMO, and it's so subjective anyway that it's difficult to even make recommendations. All you can do is try as many as possible and see what you like yourself. Anyone who tells you they can reliably distinguish between cheap and expensive wine is full of shit, and they would never put their money where their mouth is in a blind test. There's really not a lot to debate on the topic, both blind testing and the wine market itself have given us all the data we need I think.

GM Sommeliers are probably the only ones that have a chance of doing well in a blind test and there are what, a couple hundred of those in the entire world? Everyone else is just like the rest of us haha.

I believe this is the single most self-contradicting post I've seen, ever.

[Neil4Speed]

Anything under $18 and rated over 3.7 on vivino and I'm sold.
Never failed me so far :D

I use pretty much exactly the same approach LOL

[killramos]

I believe this is the single most self-contradicting post I've seen, ever.

He couldn’t decide which expert hat to put in this time

[Disoblige]

blahblahblah.
Someone needs to take a class on communicating effectively. Fuck me.

[bulaian]

Anything under $18 and rated over 3.7 on vivino and I'm sold.
Never failed me so far :D

Yes, this and the 90+ point wines under $18ish that Co-Op advertises in their flyer.

[The_Rural_Juror]

Someone needs to take a class on communicating effectively. Fuck me.

I agree. Point form, short sentences, presented in matrices.

[killramos]

I agree. Point form, short sentences, presented in a matrices.

You betray the loyalty of the ppt!

[Buster]

I agree. Point form, short sentences, presented in a matrices.

Didn't someone figure out how to do tables around here?

[Disoblige]

Didn't someone figure out how to do tables around here?
It is the worst experience ever making one on here...

But can't be worse than sitting through a ppt by Mitsu, I guarantee.

[ercchry]

It is the worst experience ever making one on here...

But can't be worse than sitting through a ppt by Mitsu, I guarantee.

Is it weird my mind just filled in the gaps in that post? Swear I read or saw something on everything he was trying to say :rofl:

[Disoblige]

Is it weird my mind just filled in the gaps in that post? Swear I read or saw something on everything he was trying to say :rofl:
You been on Beyond since '05, should be expert level on filtering through bullshit.

[Type_S1]

I likely have a terrible taste for wine as I mainly drink bourbon/whiskey and beer, however, the 2 buck chuck from Trader Joe’s ($2/bottle) usually tastes better then most $20-$30 bottles me and the lady try. I’ve had expensive wine many times before at functions and I can’t say I have ever thought it was good enough for me to buy a bottle myself.

[Disoblige]

I likely have a terrible taste for wine as I mainly drink bourbon/whiskey and beer, however, the 2 buck chuck from Trader Joe’s ($2/bottle) usually tastes better then most $20-$30 bottles me and the lady try. I’ve had expensive wine many times before at functions and I can’t say I have ever thought it was good enough for me to buy a bottle myself.
I'd probably drink wine every single meal or at least Sangria if we had that here in Canada.

[The_Rural_Juror]

Why don't you make your own Sangria?

[Disoblige]

Why don't you make your own Sangria?
I do. What I meant was using that $2 wine to make sangria just in case it tasted weird on its own.

[The_Rural_Juror]

I do. What I meant was using that $2 wine to make sangria just in case it tasted weird on its own.

Step up to a $5 wine, Ribeena, OJ, and fruit of the day. Hypothetically.

[Disoblige]

Step up to a $5 wine, Ribeena, OJ, and fruit of the day. Hypothetically.
You tried it with Ribena? I don't want it to taste like cough medicine.

[CompletelyNumb]

Points are pretty meaningless these days. 90 points is basically entry level now.

Everyone has a different taste, but there is a definite difference in the quality of the wine making and the quality of the juice that goes into each wine. It's a small window though, I'd say anything between $10 and $80 is more often than not price reflective of quality. Anything over is marketing dollars, anything under is probably bargain bin bulk juice bottled up.

I really can't die on this hill though, since my job is to help wineries around the world sell wine, and plenty of them have expensive bottles. Some just want to be a "luxury" brand. The wine's good, but the bulk of the price is positioning.

[ExtraSlow]

Points:
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[The_Rural_Juror]

You tried it with Ribena? I don't want it to taste like cough medicine.

No. I never waste good grape concentrate. Might as well put Fanta in wine.

[flipstah]

I just go and ask what is good with “insert food here” and it yields great results.

Or I ask ercchry cuz he’s the bougiest white guy I know.

[Disoblige]

No. I never waste good grape concentrate. Might as well put Fanta in wine.
Then why'd you suggest to me! I may have tried it and wasted a perfectly good $10 bottle.

[Buster]

I'm only going to open and consume a finite number of bottles of wine in my life. I don't drink a lot.

So when I open a bottle of wine, I better fucking LOVE it.

[Darkane]

Points:
96443

I like it. We can be friends.

[killramos]

You guys don’t know that the real secret is the beat wine is the one that comes in the biggest bottle?

It makes sense, they wouldn’t sell that much wine if it wasn’t amazing amirit?

[ExtraSlow]

You guys don’t know that the real secret is the beat wine is the one that comes in the biggest bottle?

It makes sense, they wouldn’t sell that much wine if it wasn’t amazing amirit?

Fact. 1L bottles always beat 750ml bottles

[ercchry]

Actually true if you take a spin through the cellar level at willowpark :rofl:

[ercchry]

Vivino is easy. Takes two seconds.

So I’ve been updating it with the little I have saved in photos... and holy shit! You can just buy wine through it now! Game changing... :rofl:

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[colsankey]

60 something a bottle(on sale) that might not be 'expensive' wine, but its pretty baller for most people.

[vengie]

Lol, nice flex.

I agree with many here. ~$15-$18/bottle and >3.7 on vivino.

I have my 4-5 go-to wines, then the wife load up every year in Kelowna when we visit our favourite vineyards.

[ercchry]

60 something a bottle(on sale) that might not be 'expensive' wine, but its pretty baller for most people.

I usually only shop in that range for gifts, but that’s a damn good deal compared to the last time I bought that bottle! Haha

[benyl]

He couldn’t decide which expert hat to put in this time
Surprised he didn’t mention the berries...

[SKR]

You guys don’t know that the real secret is the beat wine is the one that comes in the biggest bottle?

It makes sense, they wouldn’t sell that much wine if it wasn’t amazing amirit?

96446

You used to be able to get this stuff in gallon jugs. It must be the best by a mile. We used to call it Porch Climber. I had a hell of a time trying to remember the real name of it to look it up.

[Buster]

60 something a bottle(on sale) that might not be 'expensive' wine, but its pretty baller for most people.

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[The_Rural_Juror]

60 something a bottle(on sale) that might not be 'expensive' wine, but its pretty baller for most people.

I'm going to channel my inner coupe and say that $250+ a bottle is "expensive".

[Buster]

I'm going to channel my inner coupe and say that $250+ a bottle is "expensive".

Pleb

#0.72

[The_Rural_Juror]

That is true.

[ercchry]

Pleb

#0.72

Can you even play in Bordeaux futures with that?? :rofl:

[killramos]

Can you even play in Bordeaux futures with that?? :rofl:

If you have to ask...

[kJUMP]

Fuck wine, drink champagne.

(mic drop)

[Disoblige]

Fuck wine, drink champagne.

(mic drop)
No one drinks champagne. It's for jizzing on others.

[ExtraSlow]

This is the way.

- - - Updated - - -

Also reminds me to throw some prosecco into the fridge.

[ThePenIsMightier]

Back when my job was to lift heavy boxes, I was a wino.
Now that I'm all educated & wealthy & shit, I'm a champagno.

[ercchry]

Also reminds me to throw some prosecco into the fridge.

Cava ftw! ...yup, I think I’m developing a Spanish problem :rofl:

[max_boost]

I do. What I meant was using that $2 wine to make sangria just in case it tasted weird on its own.

Oh yes. I also love rosé with ice cubes and sangrias lol :love:

[The_Rural_Juror]

Transferring some icewine to the fridge too.

[ExtraSlow]

We have ice wine around the house, and nobody drinks it. Does that shit expire?

[killramos]

This is the way.

- - - Updated - - -

Also reminds me to throw some prosecco into the fridge.

Look at this guy, flexing about having a working fridge.

- - - Updated - - -


Transferring some icewine to the fridge too.

Double flex

[The_Rural_Juror]

Don't you need someone to eat up all your groceries?

[ExtraSlow]

My fridge works, but not all the drawers. So. Only a half flex.

[rage2]

Fact. 1L bottles always beat 750ml bottles
Nothing beats a magnum.

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[The_Rural_Juror]

At Ruth's Chris nonetheless.

[msommers]

A cheapie and a goodie is Halos de Jupiter. ~$17 at Superstore

[ExtraSlow]

I have fond, but fuzzy, memories of drinking directly from a Texas mickey of Canadian Club outside of a Kananaskis Country picnic shelter at 3am. So yeah, larger bottles are better in every case.

[89coupe]

96452

Grabbed some out of the wine cooler that we enjoy.

[Buster]

I have fond, but fuzzy, memories of drinking directly from a Texas mickey of Canadian Club outside of a Kananaskis Country picnic shelter at 3am. So yeah, larger bottles are better in every case.

which side of the glory hole were you on?

[rage2]

At Ruth's Chris nonetheless.
It’s all I have left. Stories of the good old days. Fuck I’m old.

[roopi]

We have ice wine around the house, and nobody drinks it. Does that shit expire?

I've never seen anyone drink and enjoy this. For some reason people give these as gifts too often.

[ExtraSlow]

Smaller and easier to carry on airplanes.

[Buster]

It’s all I have left. Stories of the good old days. Fuck I’m old.


https://youtu.be/mxsoJM896fM