Has your politics changed drastically in the last 15 years, why?

[CUG]

Hey, long time no see. Wondering if anyone else has experienced a major re-evaluation of their personal beliefs/thinking as it relates to politics, and if so, what outcomes you've experienced because of it?

[rx7boi]

It's clear that political labels tend to result in adversarial, low-resolution thinking but it's unavoidable for people to gravitate towards these categorizations to make sense of life.

Overall, I find that I'm becoming more jaded and resentful of many liberal values, especially in the face of cancel culture where both sides can be extremely disingenuous in their arguments.

For instance, I don't sidestep controversial topics like transgenderism but it's something you have to be very tactful about discussing because of the risk that comes with cancel culture.

TDLR, I am ranting and while I know more than I did 15 years ago, I haven't changed drastically.

[Tik-Tok]

My views have not changed, however how the world sees my views, has. My opinions used to be considered liberal, and now they are center.

[CUG]

It's clear that political labels tend to result in adversarial, low-resolution thinking but it's unavoidable for people to gravitate towards these categorizations to make sense of life.

Overall, I find that I'm becoming more jaded and resentful of many liberal values, especially in the face of cancel culture where both sides can be extremely disingenuous in their arguments.

For instance, I don't sidestep controversial topics like transgenderism but it's something you have to be very tactful about discussing because of the risk that comes with cancel culture.

TDLR, I am ranting and while I know more than I did 15 years ago, I haven't changed drastically. I think as I learned more the mechanics of the world and got to know more people, I started giving more of a shit about other people's experiences. I've been pretty lucky, and had to acknowledge that it's not the only perspective. Cancel culture has been happening well before all of the current social movements IIRC.


My views have not changed, however how the world sees my views, has. My opinions used to be considered liberal, and now they are center.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overton_window

[killramos]

I think I can pretty definitively say that big L Liberals piss me off far more today than they did 15 years ago.

This country also disappoints me far more every day than it did 15 years ago.

Shaping up for the next 15 years to be pretty damn pathetic too

[mr2mike]

Welcome back! I was thinking, this was a username I haven't seen for a long time.

The more of my own money that goes towards our country. The more I feel I can hold judgment on it.
Maybe it's like a bad relationship, I have invested so much more after 20 years, it's hard to back away and not fight it out for your own views to be prioritized.
Also fuck all the non tax paying freeloaders.

[CUG]

Welcome back! I was thinking, this was a username I haven't seen for a long time.

The more of my own money that goes towards our country. The more I feel I can hold judgment on it.
Maybe it's like a bad relationship, I have invested so much more after 20 years, it's hard to back away and not fight it out for your own views to be prioritized.
Also fuck all the non tax paying freeloaders.

Thanks man! I see value for my tax dollar in social programs and welfare for sure. I can't help but wonder if its as efficient as it could be though.

[Sentry]

The problem I have with modern leftism is that it's no longer about uplifting your fellow man, but dragging everyone else down in the name of "equality". Crabs in a bucket mentality.

LV0wTtiJygY

[16hypen3sp]

Where's the option for "I now hate all politicians and party's."?

[rx7boi]

I think as I learned more the mechanics of the world and got to know more people, I started giving more of a shit about other people's experiences. I've been pretty lucky, and had to acknowledge that it's not the only perspective. Cancel culture has been happening well before all of the current social movements IIRC.


I would say that cancel culture has become a lot more prominent with the advent of social media and its adoption by public figures, and not necessarily the current social movements.

But I agree with you, learning more about other people's experiences and finding common ground is important but difficult. That said, being middle class, I'm not really that interested in lower class experiences and would rather speak to what I think I know in the middle class strata lol.

[CUG]

I would say that cancel culture has become a lot more prominent with the advent of social media and its adoption by public figures, and not necessarily the current social movements.

But I agree with you, learning more about other people's experiences and finding common ground is important but difficult. That said, being middle class, I'm not really that interested in lower class experiences and would rather speak to what I think I know in the middle class strata lol.

Dang son, my balls is hot.

[ExtraSlow]

I am becoming less certain of my politics I think. I don't know which way I've drifted.

I'm pretty disgusted at the attitudes and privilege of old white men, especially the carefree denial of that privilege. I think more could be done to improve equality of opportunity.

I'm grossed out by the way technology has seemed to reinforce stereotypes and hasten mob justice.

I have lost faith in many public institutions, and I see the same across society and that makes me sad.

I do think there's a huge value in the services a strong government provides, and that roles has a cost. I even think the amount of taxes we pay here is "about right". I don't think any level of government is currently doing a good job of providing those valuable services.

[ExtraSlow]

I think normally people drift left over time. Not sure if I have. I picked "unchanged" even though it's more like "unsure".

[davidI]

I've drifted further to the right for most intents and purposes as I've witness too many examples of corruption and excess/waste along with intrusion into personal freedoms from left-leaning parties over the last couple of decades. My social politics (re: education, healthcare, welfare programs, etc.) are still in the left-leaning camp, but it's become obvious that left-leaning parties aren't necessarily about those things despite their soapboxing.

I'd identify as a Liberal in the defined sense of the word (i.e. individual rights, freedom, progressiveness, free enterprise) but Canada's so-called Liberal parties have basically become the opposite of classical liberalism and I despise them for it.



liberal
/ˈlɪb(ə)r(ə)l/


1.
willing to respect or accept behaviour or opinions different from one's own; open to new ideas.
"they have liberal views on divorce"
2.
relating to or denoting a political and social philosophy that promotes individual rights, civil liberties, democracy, and free enterprise.


noun
1.
a supporter of policies that are socially progressive and promote social welfare.
2.
a supporter of a political and social philosophy that promotes individual rights, civil liberties, democracy, and free enterprise.
"classical liberals emphasized the right of the individual to make decisions, even if the results dismayed their neighbours or injured themselves"

[killramos]

Distinction between big L and little l liberal is very important.

[Tik-Tok]

I think normally people drift left over time. Not sure if I have. I picked "unchanged" even though it's more like "unsure".

In my experience it's the opposite. Or rather, as I mentioned, people's views have stayed approximately the same, but how newer generations view them has turned those views into conservative ones.

[Misterman]

I think normally people drift left over time. Not sure if I have. I picked "unchanged" even though it's more like "unsure".

Generally people drift right over time. Which makes perfect sense. It seems like a great idea when you're young to provide for everyone, hippy love and all that shit. Then the more you start paying in taxes as you advance in your career over time and make more money, you start to want accountability of where that money is going. And you start to realize that providing for everyone is actually a ponzi scheme that is not sustainable. Then it becomes about what part of the spectrum you land on to find the balance of financial accountability and social welfare, and it's different for everyone.

The weird thing is that we all essentially talk like there is just left and right, when in reality most sensible people will identify as Libertarian whether they realize it or not. Most of us tend to think people should do what makes them happy, and that the government should be accountable to their spending. People that identify as conservative or right wing, generally only do so because they value fiscal conservatism. It's only the fringe extremes that want the government regulating abortion and sexuality, like some bible thumping hand of god.

[tirebob]

While I think I have definitely softened over the years on many social issues and I have grown more fiscally conservative, I am not sure if it is my personal values that have changed a whole lot as much as the goalposts have moved on the scale. This then makes me question where it is I fit on the understanding of todays scale versus 30 years ago.

In the grand scheme of things I don't think I have changed a whole lot really as much as now they are the topics out in the front and centre now, but I do think the entire scale of politics has shifted left a notch or three so what is now considered conservative is more what liberal centre used to represent, and what is considered liberal now is what used to be considered more left. What is considered left today is just absolutely as scary as fuck.

[davidI]

Distinction between big L and little l liberal is very important.

Yea, but I feel even that differentiation has been so far lost that even when current [L]iberals claim to be [l]iberals they're lying. Same goes for [C]onservatives and [c]onservatives.

[Antonito]

I think as I learned more the mechanics of the world and got to know more people, I started giving more of a shit about other people's experiences. I've been pretty lucky, and had to acknowledge that it's not the only perspective. Cancel culture has been happening well before all of the current social movements IIRC. This is pretty much what happened to me as well. I started out my 20s thinking that because I had come from a "poor" home and moved out on my own at 18 so everyone should just stop whining and get a job. Meeting a lot of people who worked their way out from actual crushing poverty made me realize that there's worse things than having hand made clothes and shopping at Value Village, and that with the types of obstacles there are it's ridiculous to think saying "get a job" is going to be the solution. Yes people can make it out, but it's statistically and realistically unlikely.

Lately though I've started becoming pretty hopeless about the whole thing. I can't see a way to get money out of politics, but I also can't see how leaving everything up to corporations would be better. Also that everything on both sides is so half assed. If you want to get away from oil production, you'd better have a Plan B, not just vague words about diversification of the economy. Or if you're going to go all in on oil production, you'd better have a viable plan to get this shit to market. As it is now we're just floating in the middle of the river without a paddle.

Cancel culture bothers me because it's a small symptom of a much bigger problem: we as a species have no idea how to handle this level of connectivity.

[Xtrema]

This is pretty much what happened to me as well. I started out my 20s thinking that because I had come from a "poor" home and moved out on my own at 18 so everyone should just stop whining and get a job. Meeting a lot of people who worked their way out from actual crushing poverty made me realize that there's worse things than having hand made clothes and shopping at Value Village, and that with the types of obstacles there are it's ridiculous to think saying "get a job" is going to be the solution. Yes people can make it out, but it's statistically and realistically unlikely.

I used to have the mentality of "If I can, why can't you" and the world is black and white in the 20s. Then part of growing up is you starts to experience the world thru other people's eyes and realize that it's a lot less straight forward than that.

What I really worry is that we are about to deal with a generation of kids who grew up on "good and evil" ideology from Disney and other media and cancel culture is probably the result. Bad people do good things, and nobody is an angel 100% of the time. And people should at least cut people some slack and reasonable doubt.

[Masked Bandit]

I don't think my political leanings have changed per se, by rather my view of the political system and government in general. The older I get the less confidence I have in any government. I don't think Ottawa is any more competent than my local neighbourhood community association. The people involved at every level are little more than busy-bodies that want to have control over something. These are the same people that ran for student council in high school and thought it meant something. It doesn't. Where it all went pear shaped for me was when I started seeing people I actually knew get elected to public office. One of them federal, several provincial and in every case they were solid C students who were just concerned with being popular. None of these folks were of any substance, it was all just a show. Kind of like having a substitute drama teacher / snowboard instructor at the front of the parade.

The reality is that there is no master plan, there is no geniuses standing at the wheel...it's every many for himself.

[Sentry]

What I really worry is that we are about to deal with a generation of kids who grew up on "good and evil" ideology from Disney and other media and cancel culture is probably the result. Bad people do good things, and nobody is an angel 100% of the time. And people should at least cut people some slack and reasonable doubt.
This is probably my biggest gripe with the current state of politics, and both sides of the fence are absolutely 100% guilty of this line of thinking. They're politicians, not some disney villain or hero. They aren't scheming behind closed doors to destroy your life, they are scheming behind closed doors to get re elected and keep their jobs.

[Misterman]

This is probably my biggest gripe with the current state of politics, and both sides of the fence are absolutely 100% guilty of this line of thinking. They're politicians, not some disney villain or hero. They aren't scheming behind closed doors to destroy your life, they are scheming behind closed doors to get re elected and keep their jobs.

They might not be actively scheming to ruin your life, but their active scheming to enrich their own lives, IS at a direct cost to your life even if you consider that end result to be passive.

[CUG]

Generally people drift right over time. Which makes perfect sense. It seems like a great idea when you're young to provide for everyone, hippy love and all that shit. Then the more you start paying in taxes as you advance in your career over time and make more money, you start to want accountability of where that money is going. And you start to realize that providing for everyone is actually a ponzi scheme that is not sustainable. Then it becomes about what part of the spectrum you land on to find the balance of financial accountability and social welfare, and it's different for everyone.

The weird thing is that we all essentially talk like there is just left and right, when in reality most sensible people will identify as Libertarian whether they realize it or not. Most of us tend to think people should do what makes them happy, and that the government should be accountable to their spending. People that identify as conservative or right wing, generally only do so because they value fiscal conservatism. It's only the fringe extremes that want the government regulating abortion and sexuality, like some bible thumping hand of god.

This post has a lot of forgone conclusions trying to be established. While Trudeau is a federal example of poor management, your own premiere is a conservative example of the same or worse. It's easy to be a genius when the economy is in good shape and demand for oil is off the charts. While it's lazy to believe that Alberta's oil boom was due to what people believe was the PC's welcoming economic policy, the outcome of it is where we are now; energy companies leaving Alberta, brain drain, talk of PST, lowered value for our tax dollar, and a brutal increase in low IQ extremism.

People are mad at Biden over the pipeline, sure, but his position on it was known well in advance of the election. How much did Alberta and is companies through into that program without hedging their position? Conservatism (Edit: in terms of party politics) is not inherently fiscally responsible. Financial accountability and social welfare are not mutually exclusive. The trio I look for is governmental competency, transparency in policy making, and a tendency towards benefitting the majority of people (and not via dinosaur-aged trickle-down theory).

Can I get your opinion on corporate welfare now?

[CUG]

This is pretty much what happened to me as well. I started out my 20s thinking that because I had come from a "poor" home and moved out on my own at 18 so everyone should just stop whining and get a job. Meeting a lot of people who worked their way out from actual crushing poverty made me realize that there's worse things than having hand made clothes and shopping at Value Village, and that with the types of obstacles there are it's ridiculous to think saying "get a job" is going to be the solution. Yes people can make it out, but it's statistically and realistically unlikely.

Lately though I've started becoming pretty hopeless about the whole thing. I can't see a way to get money out of politics, but I also can't see how leaving everything up to corporations would be better. Also that everything on both sides is so half assed. If you want to get away from oil production, you'd better have a Plan B, not just vague words about diversification of the economy. Or if you're going to go all in on oil production, you'd better have a viable plan to get this shit to market. As it is now we're just floating in the middle of the river without a paddle.

Cancel culture bothers me because it's a small symptom of a much bigger problem: we as a species have no idea how to handle this level of connectivity.

Yep, I thought we weren't "well off" because my family didn't buy an insanely large home with a hot tub like all the cool kids had in Signal Hill or whatever. My family lived well within their means, largely due to the influence of wartime economics my grandparents went through - passed on to my parents etc. Imagine being shamed for growing up well-fed, clothed, with a roof over your head, full access to healthcare and education, and an abundance of opportunity just because your family didn't take out a mortgage as big as someone else. :rofl:

I share that hopeless sentiment as well. For me it's any time I see a really confident antivaxxer pumping out nonsense, and no amount of expertise and evidence will get them to stop. That scales up to people's political beliefs as well (What is wrong with Kansas talks about this phenomenon). Good seeing you again man.

[Misterman]

This post has a lot of forgone conclusions trying to be established. While Trudeau is a federal example of poor management, your own premiere is a conservative example of the same or worse. It's easy to be a genius when the economy is in good shape and demand for oil is off the charts. While it's lazy to believe that Alberta's oil boom was due to what people believe was the PC's welcoming economic policy, the outcome of it is where we are now; energy companies leaving Alberta, brain drain, talk of PST, lowered value for our tax dollar, and a brutal increase in low IQ extremism.

People are mad at Biden over the pipeline, sure, but his position on it was known well in advance of the election. How much did Alberta and is companies through into that program without hedging their position? Conservatism is not inherently fiscally responsible. Financial accountability and social welfare are not mutually exclusive. The trio I look for is governmental competency, transparency in policy making, and a tendency towards benefitting the majority of people (and not via dinosaur-aged trickle-down theory).

Can I get your opinion on corporate welfare now?

I don't know what you're getting at? Sounds like you made a lot of forgone conclusions about my post.

I certainly never claimed Conservatives were some kind of pinnacle of fiscal responsibility. However, they are most definitely the lesser of two evils if you want to just compare Liberal vs. Conservative. If you want to use anecdotes in regards to current governments to make some kind of point about Conservatives being poor money managers, then look no further than the current federal regime, which you already seem to understand are inept. You'll have to restructure your argument at that point. Not sure why you call JK MY Premier? I am Albertan, so of course he is my Premier, just as much as he is yours.

This discussion highlights why I'm not happy about the current state of politics. The left continues to go ever left and cater to a minority of people that they believe to be a majority, and buy as many votes as possible. And the right just follows left so as not to lose voters in the middle who might lean a little left.

I've never seen a government be very competent, transparent, or lean towards benefitting the majority of people. And nobody seems very apt to elect one, as is demonstrated by the Libertarian party performance in elections.

Corporate welfare? What sort of opinion are you looking for? It can be done in a multitude of ways, some effective, some not. The ways that are effective, are more beneficial than virtually all social welfare. However, I'm not really down with any crony capitalism. The government should stay the hell out of business, except for regulating it to look after the rights of the individual and prevent the little guy from getting stomped on.

[CUG]

I don't know what you're getting at? Sounds like you made a lot of forgone conclusions about my post.
Oh, the old tried and true "no you". Good chat.

[Misterman]

Oh, the old tried and true "no you". Good chat.

Good call. Best to just ignore everything and bow out when you get in over your head.

[CUG]

Good call. Best to just ignore everything and bow out when you get in over your head.

The irony of your statement is that it's almost entirely true except for the last part. The fact I've deconstructed the mechanics of your family-brand low quality arguments so easily means everybody should ignore you. Don't know what else to tell you, Julian. :rofl:

If you're actually interested in not being the dumbest person in your circles, U of C, MRU et al offer open studies courses that have introductory science and statistics classes. It often gets labelled "liberal brainwashing" by your high BMI gang family members, but it will inform you on the framework of how a lot of the things that enable you to exist came to be. And because I know people like you need to be told, you're supposed to wash your asshole in the shower.

[killramos]

You sure have a high opinion of yourself, don’t you.

You really have the whole ad hominem thing down pat.

[ExtraSlow]

The irony of your statement is that it's almost entirely true except for the last part. The fact I've deconstructed the mechanics of your family-brand low quality arguments so easily means everybody should ignore you. Don't know what else to tell you, Julian. :rofl:

If you're actually interested in not being the dumbest person in your circles, U of C, MRU et al offer open studies courses that have introductory science and statistics classes. It often gets labelled "liberal brainwashing" by your high BMI gang family members, but it will inform you on the framework of how a lot of the things that enable you to exist came to be. And because I know people like you need to be told, you're supposed to wash your asshole in the shower.

I know you've been away for a while, but there's a super handy "ignore user" feature on the forums these days.

[CUG]

You sure have a high opinion of yourself, don’t you.

You really have the whole ad hominem thing down pat.

Yes to both.

[Misterman]

The irony of your statement is that it's almost entirely true except for the last part. The fact I've deconstructed the mechanics of your family-brand low quality arguments so easily means everybody should ignore you. Don't know what else to tell you, Julian. :rofl:

If you're actually interested in not being the dumbest person in your circles, U of C, MRU et al offer open studies courses that have introductory science and statistics classes. It often gets labelled "liberal brainwashing" by your high BMI gang family members, but it will inform you on the framework of how a lot of the things that enable you to exist came to be. And because I know people like you need to be told, you're supposed to wash your asshole in the shower.

Ah yes, the rock solid argument deconstructor known as "Oh yeah, well fuck you" Must have learned that one in your introductory science and statistics classes. You've most certainly owned me good sir.

[suntan]

I would like to see mass anarchy. Three days without water will kill off billions. Then let the small fiefdoms arise.

[Xtrema]

I would like to see mass anarchy. Three days without water will kill off billions. Then let the small fiefdoms arise.

So Texas?

[suntan]

So Texas?

Nah it's gotta be on a continental level.

[austic]

i guess i became more jaded in that no matter who is in charged nothing really changes and we get false promises and screwed.

[suntan]

i guess i became more jaded in that no matter who is in charged nothing really changes and we get false promises and screwed.

The number of people on Twitter surprised about all the campaign promises Biden has been breaking is hilarious.

[killramos]

The number of people on Twitter surprised about all the campaign promises Biden has been breaking is hilarious.

Vote Democrat. Get Cash.

[Darkane]

The number of people on Twitter surprised about all the campaign promises Biden has been breaking is hilarious.

What didn’t he do? I thought he was doing stuff, except for getting Covid dealt with.

[suntan]

What didn’t he do? I thought he was doing stuff, except for getting Covid dealt with.

Min wage: dead. They tried to pass this as a rider for some fucking reason, it got shot down because you can't pass riders that affect budget (the Byrd Rule). It's why only riders for the perverted arts pass.
Cheques: not $2000. Maybe not even.
Student loan relief: down to $10K from $50K. Probably dead.

And let's bomb the ME!! AGAIN.

Even though they have the senate and congress, they can't seem to get full support. It's weird.

[CUG]

Min wage: dead. They tried to pass this as a rider for some fucking reason, it got shot down because you can't pass riders that affect budget (the Byrd Rule). It's why only riders for the perverted arts pass.
Cheques: not $2000. Maybe not even.
Student loan relief: down to $10K from $50K. Probably dead.

And let's bomb the ME!! AGAIN.

Even though they have the senate and congress, they can't seem to get full support. It's weird.

It was funny because if you didn't like trump, you got called a biden supporter, which couldn't be further from the truth. :rofl: