Porsche says: To Hell with EVs!

[Darkane]

Well, they didn’t really say that - but when Porsche speaks, everyone should listen.

https://www.autoblog.com/2021/02/23/porsche-synthetic-fuel/

Emissions at EV levels. Maintain that sweet sweet ICE.

However - open minds are open - total efficiency is still down so it’ll likely be cheaper to operate an EV and purchase one too. Of course we’re talking in the next 5-10 years.

[ThePenIsMightier]

"Synthetic fuels are made by extracting hydrogen via renewable energy, and capturing it liquid form with carbon dioxide."
:facepalm: :facepalm:. :facepalm:

There are many ways of making synthetic fuels. Some of them even make sense. Their plan has PhD written all over it. 15 steps to a fuel that's $5/L.

[bjstare]

"Synthetic fuels are made by extracting hydrogen via renewable energy, and capturing it liquid form with carbon dioxide."
:facepalm: :facepalm:. :facepalm:

There are many ways of making synthetic fuels. Stone of them even make sense. Their plan has PhD written all over it. 15 steps to a fuel that's $5/L.

That explains why they only have a goal of producing 32,000gal by next year.

[ExtraSlow]

Incredible, they'll end up using hydrocarbons to make hydrogen, then using that to make . . . .hydrocarbons? Is this what people are talking about when they use the phrase "Circular Economy"?

This could be their logo.
97701

[rage2]

This is the 3rd gen bio fuel. F1 has been dabbling in this for quite some time already.

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.how-formula-1-will-lead-the-charge-to-use-biofuels.lxWqy8GilwwMBsjKyPiFf.html


There are three generations of biofuels. The first generation, he explains, were “largely made from food stock” – crops grown especially for fuel. But that wasn’t sustainable and it brought up ethical issues.

Second-generation biofuels “either use food waste, the husks of corn for example, or biomass, for example forestry waste, or indeed household waste.

“Finally, there are third-generation biofuels, sometimes called the e-fuels or synthetic fuel, and without going into too much chemistry, these are the more advanced fuels.

"They’re often called drop-in fuels because you can effectively just put them into any engine, without modification, whereas engines that run on extreme ethanol mixes, such as used in Brazil [for road cars], require alteration.”
The goal is to harness renewable energy to create this fuel so that it can be used for all existing ICE engines. F1 is already using 2nd generation fuels today, 10% of the fuel for this upcoming season is 2nd gen. They're ironing out the timeline for going 100% 3rd gen. All the current engine manufacturers in F1 have already tested 3rd gen successfully. It's all about scaling up production and lowering costs at this point.

[Darkane]

Awesome.

What’s the effective knock resistance of these fuels?

Are we talking race gas so Porsche can make some 14:1 600 HP NA GT cars with only 6 cylinders in a horizontally opposed configuration?!

Say that fast 10 times.

[vengie]

Awesome.

What’s the effective knock resistance of these fuels?

Are we talking race gas so Porsche can make some 14:1 600 HP NA GT cars with only 6 cylinders in a horizontally opposed configuration?!

Say that fast 10 times.

I said it 10 times fast, and came in my pants...

Do not recommend anyone saying this.

[Darkane]

I said it 10 times fast, and came in my pants...

Do not recommend anyone saying this.

Approved.

[ThePenIsMightier]

Awesome.

What’s the effective knock resistance of these fuels?

Are we talking race gas so Porsche can make some 14:1 600 HP NA GT cars with only 6 cylinders in a horizontally opposed configuration?!

Say that fast 10 times.

I know for certain that some synthetic diesel fuels have substantially higher cetane levels than conventional. That makes me think that synthetic gasolines might have higher octane potential...
But, I don't directly know.

[zechs]

This is the 3rd gen bio fuel. F1 has been dabbling in this for quite some time already.

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.how-formula-1-will-lead-the-charge-to-use-biofuels.lxWqy8GilwwMBsjKyPiFf.html


The goal is to harness renewable energy to create this fuel so that it can be used for all existing ICE engines. F1 is already using 2nd generation fuels today, 10% of the fuel for this upcoming season is 2nd gen. They're ironing out the timeline for going 100% 3rd gen. All the current engine manufacturers in F1 have already tested 3rd gen successfully. It's all about scaling up production and lowering costs at this point.

What a complete crock of shit. Ethanol with corrosion inhibitors is a much better source of "renewable ICE fuels" if we want to be silly about it, "1st generation" bullshit aside. This is like renaming 4G as "5G Long Range" or whatever the hell, pure marketing crap. And virtually any modern car has enough injector to run straight ethanol.

We need better renewable energy sources. Then you can either manufacture hydrocarbons by pulling co2 from the air, or just go straight electric.

This whole "gen" thing is just typical FIA garbage, as stated, a project likely designed by a phd with.little real world use. We've already been at this technological level for a long time, the energy to power it is the problem, and will continue to be for decades (or just build nukes, but you know we can't have that).

[ExtraSlow]

Yeah, any wildly energy intensive method of producing liquid fuels is kind of stupid and folks could just skip straight to EV for almost any use case, including motorsports. I'm a big proponent of "green" projects but this is greenwashed marketing at best.

[rage2]

Awesome.

What’s the effective knock resistance of these fuels?

Are we talking race gas so Porsche can make some 14:1 600 HP NA GT cars with only 6 cylinders in a horizontally opposed configuration?!

Say that fast 10 times.
According to the FIA, it's lower. They've effectively have to create new formulations to meet the octane needs of F1. The original "gen3" test fuel they got based on the hydrogen CO2 formula was only seeing 95 RON. Current F1 fuels are 105 RON.


What a complete crock of shit. Ethanol with corrosion inhibitors is a much better source of "renewable ICE fuels" if we want to be silly about it, "1st generation" bullshit aside. This is like renaming 4G as "5G Long Range" or whatever the hell, pure marketing crap. And virtually any modern car has enough injector to run straight ethanol.

We need better renewable energy sources. Then you can either manufacture hydrocarbons by pulling co2 from the air, or just go straight electric.

This whole "gen" thing is just typical FIA garbage, as stated, a project likely designed by a phd with.little real world use. We've already been at this technological level for a long time, the energy to power it is the problem, and will continue to be for decades (or just build nukes, but you know we can't have that).
If you read the article, Gen1 and Gen2 is pretty much the same thing. Gen1 was unsustainable because it was literally using food sources to create fuel, while Gen2 was waste products. Gen3 is fully synthetic.

The generations is just a nomenclature to make sense of progress. It wasn't FIA derived, it's what most of Europe uses.

[Xtrema]

There are many ways of making synthetic fuels. Some of them even make sense. Their plan has PhD written all over it. 15 steps to a fuel that's $5/L.

Would our 91 octane not be $5/L by 2040 if economy is scale is lost when all passenger cars you can buy at that point are all EVs?

[ThePenIsMightier]

Would our 91 octane not be $5/L by 2040 if economy is scale is lost when all passenger cars you can buy at that point are all EVs?

In the event that all you could buy were EV's... Maybe?
It's not a statement anyone could prove wrong, but I don't think that's the same as it being an accurate statement.

I'm a long way from believing that ICE vehicles will not be for sale within 19 years.

And, the economy of scale doesn't sound like the correct term. Refining capacity (supply) would be so massively higher than demand, perhaps gasoline would be $0.01/gallon. It's some crystal ball shit.

[bjstare]

In the event that all you could buy were EV's... Maybe?
It's not a statement anyone could prove wrong, but I don't think that's the same as it being an accurate statement.

I'm a long way from believing that ICE vehicles will not be for sale within 19 years.

And, the economy of scale doesn't sound like the correct term. Refining capacity (supply) would be so massively higher than demand, perhaps gasoline would be $0.01/gallon. It's some crystal ball shit.

Gasoline will be $5/L due to high tax on it with the goal of accelerating EV adoption/discouraging hydrocarbon consumption.

[ExtraSlow]

$5/L is coming brothers.

[Xtrema]

$5/L is coming brothers.

Well the money printing alone will get us there.

[SingleBarrel]

That explains why they only have a goal of producing 32,000gal by next year.

under promise, over delivery

Oldest trick in the book

:clap:

[ZenOps]

1,000 horsepower hummer should be out soon.

Technically, there is no limit to horsepower when talking electric.

[SSO]

"Synthetic fuels are made by extracting hydrogen via renewable energy, and capturing it liquid form with carbon dioxide."
:facepalm: :facepalm:. :facepalm:

There are many ways of making synthetic fuels. Some of them even make sense. Their plan has PhD written all over it. 15 steps to a fuel that's $5/L.

when you take a look at cost and how you would get it broadly distributed, plan has a few major, and likely unsurmountable, hurdles.

[ExtraSlow]

duaner hello.

- - - Updated - - -


Incredible, they'll end up using hydrocarbons to make hydrogen, then using that to make . . . .hydrocarbons? Is this what people are talking about when they use the phrase "Circular Economy"?

This could be their logo.
97701

Quoted

[duaner]

duaner hello.


Well, hello there...

Is this what you are looking for?

"Porsche thinks its synthetic gasoline, which it calls E-Fuel, could be as clean as an electric vehicle. First, it needs to prove that theory, and that starts this year. In fact, it starts today. The German company on Tuesday said drivers and their vehicles participating in the Porsche Mobil 1 Supercup race series will be topped off with the renewable E-Fuel. The series kicks off today in Zandvoort, Netherlands, and the fuel will power the race cars through the whole season to test its performance and efficiency."

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/autos/news/porsche-takes-its-synthetic-e-fuel-gas-racing-to-test-performance-and-efficiency/ar-BB1f8ae5?li=AAggFp5

[ThePenIsMightier]

Well, hello there...

Is this what you are looking for?

"Porsche thinks its synthetic gasoline, which it calls E-Fuel, could be as clean as an electric vehicle. First, it needs to prove that theory, and that starts this year. In fact, it starts today. The German company on Tuesday said drivers and their vehicles participating in the Porsche Mobil 1 Supercup race series will be topped off with the renewable E-Fuel. The series kicks off today in Zandvoort, Netherlands, and the fuel will power the race cars through the whole season to test its performance and efficiency."

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/autos/news/porsche-takes-its-synthetic-e-fuel-gas-racing-to-test-performance-and-efficiency/ar-BB1f8ae5?li=AAggFp5

Using the fuel proves nothing. Of course it's going to work.
What they actually need to prove is that they can overcome the insurmountable quantity of energy consumed to produce this fuel and then claim that it was all "green".

[SSO]

Using the fuel proves nothing. Of course it's going to work.
What they actually need to prove is that they can overcome the insurmountable quantity of energy consumed to produce this fuel and then claim that it was all "green".

Which is highly unlikely.

[Darkane]

It’s happening - at $9 gallon? I said, pardon?!

https://www.autoblog.com/2021/09/13/porsche-synthetic-fuel-efuel-chile-plant/

[ThePenIsMightier]

It’s happening - at $9 gallon? I said, pardon?!

https://www.autoblog.com/2021/09/13/porsche-synthetic-fuel-efuel-chile-plant/

I think I read that and it's also really airy fairy. They don't have the data to support their $9 estimate and they think this thing will be online in 2022. That's adorable.