Overtime

[nzwasp]

How do your companies handle this? do they think that you guys should just do it with no compensation at all because you are salaried and there fore not entitled to overtime, or do you get compensated at 1.5x or time off in lieu?

At my company there are projects where you get overtime and some projects where you would never be in that position so there is no overtime at all. Also we often travel to work sites (mostly O & G) and there is often the expectation to do 12 hour days where 4 hours of that would be overtime; however recently our project margins have been super tight so we still have to bill 12 hours to the customer but we personally don't get anything for that extra 4 hours per day.

I had a long conversation with one of my coworkers about this yesterday and he had told me he had never claimed overtime for the last 5 years, where as I had been claiming overtime on the exact same projects and usually making around 15k per year extra income he said he felt like he lost money...

My company never told me about overtime it was only after reading the HR policies that I found this out.

[firebane]

How do your companies handle this? do they think that you guys should just do it with no compensation at all because you are salaried and there fore not entitled to overtime, or do you get compensated at 1.5x or time off in lieu?

At my company there are projects where you get overtime and some projects where you would never be in that position so there is no overtime at all. Also we often travel to work sites (mostly O & G) and there is often the expectation to do 12 hour days where 4 hours of that would be overtime; however recently our project margins have been super tight so we still have to bill 12 hours to the customer but we personally don't get anything for that extra 4 hours per day.

I had a long conversation with one of my coworkers about this yesterday and he had told me he had never claimed overtime for the last 5 years, where as I had been claiming overtime on the exact same projects and usually making around 15k per year extra income he said he felt like he lost money...

My company never told me about overtime it was only after reading the HR policies that I found this out.

Anything outside of normal business hours for me ends up time in lieu. I'd rather not have "OT" pay as that just fucks with tax brackets if you end up with too much.

I prefer tracking the time and getting the TIL instead.

[Brent.ff]

We get it 'banked' in lieu.. Zero chance id be donating 4 hours a day of driving time to the company pocket.. Im also not a P. Eng however..

[sabad66]

Never heard of anyone salaried in my company claiming overtime. I'm sure that we have some sort of policy to be able to do that, but it feels like a good way to get moved up on the list of people to be laid off next.

Generally we just give time off in lieu i.e. if we have to work on a Saturday for a major deployment or something, boss will tell us to take a day off to make up for it.

But then again i've never worked in a consulting type of role where you bill hours to clients so maybe that's standard for those types of industries?

[Mitsu3000gt]

In my experience (O&G):

Salaried positions: OT is expected if needed without direct compensation, but come bonus/raise time it will probably be taken into consideration. Often this more than balances out with various company perks like bonus days off, extra long weekends, getting told to go home at 2pm on a nice summer day occasionally, being able to leave for personal appointments like the Dentist without having to burn vacation days, etc. YMMV there of course.

Hourly positions/contractors: When I was a contractor, OT (beyond a 7.5hr work day) was just billed as additional regular hours without a 50% or 100% multiplier or whatever, but on days where I had to come into the office even for 1 hour there was a 4hr minimum pay.

[sabad66]

I'd rather not have "OT" pay as that just fucks with tax brackets if you end up with too much.


Income taxes in Canada are progressive. If you get pushed into the next tax bracket, only the income in that tax bracket gets taxed at the new higher rate. not the income below.

The exception would be income-tested government programs, but most people working full time jobs don't have to worry about this.

[Mitsu3000gt]

Income taxes in Canada are progressive. If you get pushed into the next tax bracket, only the income in that tax bracket gets taxed at the new higher rate. not the income below.

The exception would be income-tested programs, but most people working full time jobs don't have to worry about this.

This. Tax brackets are probably one of the most commonly misunderstood things I can think of haha.

[nzwasp]

We get it 'banked' in lieu.. Zero chance id be donating 4 hours a day of driving time to the company pocket.. Im also not a P. Eng however..

Im also not an engineer I work in IT for a software company. However for example I have to go to 2 sites next week - I agreed to go to one site in cold lake and when I asked what flight I should book the PM said "flight!! you are driving there on Sunday" So its a 5.5/6 hour drive to get there, not allowed to charge travel time, not allowed to claim overtime expected to work 12 hour days and that doesnt include the driving to site thats 1 hour each way.

Time in Lieu doesn't really interest me as I already get 4 to 5 weeks of holiday per year.

I also find that US based projects that have onsite time tend to always pay overtime.

[pheoxs]

Contractor life ftw. Just pay me for what I work. Sucks not getting 1.5x but at the same time usually your hourly rate is sufficient that I'm happy working as many hours as I can. Plus since it's not 1.5x I find most companies are more willing to spring for extra hours than when I was salary and they were dancing around 'no OT' policies and try to push time in lieu that there was never time to take.

My last salary job was shitty though. We 'worked' 37.5 hour weeks for our Salary but received no OT (or additional straight time) until over 44 hours a week. So during quiet times you gain a bit working a tad shorter weeks but on busy projects you lose a bit by not getting any extra until the 44hr cap. Particularly sucks if you go and do 6hrs on a Saturday for 0 pay. After 44hrs it was 1.5x for however much.

[killramos]

Income taxes in Canada are progressive. If you get pushed into the next tax bracket, only the income in that tax bracket gets taxed at the new higher rate. not the income below.

The exception would be income-tested government programs, but most people working full time jobs don't have to worry about this.

I would be supportive of creating a federal department dedicated to staffers going around wacking people on the head with a newspaper every time they talk about how they are afraid of moving into the next tax bracket because it will cost them more money than they will make.

I think every Canadian should be forced to file their own taxes, by hand, once in their lifetime before accessing social services. After they do it once they can be allowed to pay someone to do it for them.

Also I’m not sure I have worked a job where OT was a thing since I was 16.

[nzwasp]

I look at the overtime when asked to go onsite as a benefit of actually going onsite otherwise what reason is for me to even go there, I'm just placing more burden on my wife and family for being away for 1 to 2 weeks. Theres not alot of trips I go on where you only work 8 hours a day and thats it with no requirement to drive anywhere and then you also get recreation time on top of that.

A lot of guys in my organization are really concerned that they have to do travel or work late every night or else they will be laid off...

There's also the excuse that in this market you have to do that - we have been in this "market" for the last 6 years.


In my experience (O&G):

Salaried positions: OT is expected if needed without direct compensation, but come bonus/raise time it will probably be taken into consideration.

I feel like alot of companies just expect it but then come compensation time don't do this. In my experience its really hard to find a company in this city that actually pays good salary increased (outside of O/G). I used to work at Telus with a couple of east indian guys and we all made the same amount of money 70K per year (this was in 2012), all three of us had 10 years of Network Engineer/Admin experience, the two east indian guys both had CCIE's. Every year at performance review time we were given 0, everyone in the team was given 0%. Telus did not believe in COLA raises. When I left in 2015 my other coworker (a contractor) was offered a full time position on the team - he was offered 70K per year. I talked to one of the east indian guys last May - he was still on 70K per year except now he has another CCIE and hes also been made the team lead for the team of 10 people. He was also told that the salary had been frozen for 2 years. I asked him why he stayed for so long and he said it was because Telus allowed him to go back to india once per year to see his family, a trip that used all of his leave plus one week of unpaid leave, mate thats not a benefit that a vacation. At my performance increases which were always good I asked why there were no increases and the manager said - if you dont want to work here we can always find someone else who will do this job for the same or less money.

[Brent.ff]

Im also not an engineer I work in IT for a software company. However for example I have to go to 2 sites next week - I agreed to go to one site in cold lake and when I asked what flight I should book the PM said "flight!! you are driving there on Sunday" So its a 5.5/6 hour drive to get there, not allowed to charge travel time, not allowed to claim overtime expected to work 12 hour days and that doesnt include the driving to site thats 1 hour each way.
.

That sounds like your PM underbid the job and he doesnt want to writeoff your travel time... He will make his stats look better by making you eat the time. OT or not, should at least get the straight time, as youre not working for the joy of working.

It'd be one thing if it was like 'hey man can you work an extra few hours this week to get this done', but he's just boosting his labor multiplier with no benefit to you

[ThePenIsMightier]

Years ago, Worley (and likely others) would charge clients a 1.5x premium for hours exceeding 40/week (or whatever that person's regular scheduled hours were). The employee would get 1.00 hours in their bank. Where did that money go? Straight to some Australian kangaroo fucker's profit center. It was a fictional charge for an additional cost that wasn't borne. Once the employee had exceeded 40hr in their time bank, then and only then would they receive 1.5x their wage as extra money on their next cheque and it would only be for the extra hours "spilling out" of their bank. This was technically legal although obviously shitty.
The NDP changed this in a really vague way, so they stopped stealing from their clients and employees.
I'm pretty sure the UCP reversed what the NDP did, so I think it's back.

*This whole thing only applied to employees who were eligible for 1.5x which was some (not all, for some reason) Designers/Tech's and not engineers.

[ExtraSlow]

I've never worked a job where my hours were billed to a client. But if My hours were getting billed, I'd want to get paid for them. Seems reasonable.

For my work, and at every company I've ever been at, there was an expectation of occasional overtime. You managed it yourself in terms of taking off time in lieu. Current company has a process for tracking banked time. I've used it, but it's easier for me and my boss if I don't do that and just "do what's fair."

[Mitsu3000gt]

Contractor life ftw. Just pay me for what I work. Sucks not getting 1.5x but at the same time usually your hourly rate is sufficient that I'm happy working as many hours as I can. Plus since it's not 1.5x I find most companies are more willing to spring for extra hours than when I was salary and they were dancing around 'no OT' policies and try to push time in lieu that there was never time to take.

My last salary job was shitty though. We 'worked' 37.5 hour weeks for our Salary but received no OT (or additional straight time) until over 44 hours a week. So during quiet times you gain a bit working a tad shorter weeks but on busy projects you lose a bit by not getting any extra until the 44hr cap. Particularly sucks if you go and do 6hrs on a Saturday for 0 pay. After 44hrs it was 1.5x for however much.

I'm sure it's different for everyone, but in my experience, once you account for health benefits, vacation/flex days, bonuses, any kind of stock or long term incentive plan, freedom to attend appointments on company time, etc. I was making nearly double as a salaried employee vs when I was a contractor in the same position. When they were determining the hourly rate they told me they used a 20-30% multiplier on the equivalent salaried position which I soon learned was not nearly enough to account for having to pay for my own benefits and missing out on all vacation, bonuses, incentives, etc. Contractors are also typically the first to get laid off if there is any kind of downsizing, and I was always worried about that. That mostly applies to O&G though as many other industries don't have the same level of additional compensation on top of the salary.

If you're lucky enough to have all that taken into account when determining your hourly rate (vs. a salaried position), then I can see how it would be a lot better than my previous situation. Also maybe I was just given a really shitty contractor rate haha.

[Brent.ff]

To put it simply, look at your companies policy for OT. If you're not an exempt employee, bill it all and make the PM clean up the mess he put himself in. If you are exempt, i'd be talking to HR to get an exemption to that policy when doing out of town work because as you said, this isnt what you signed up for and are putting an additional cost on your family with zero pay for that.

[nzwasp]

Regarding my other point I think its strange how people go out of their way to justify why they are getting a low salary. I have another friend making 65K and hes a senior marketing analyst. He said the reason he doesnt push for salary increases and just gets what he is given is because he has to drop his kids off at school every morning. When I hear stories like that and then see the amount of money that his company makes I think he's just being taken for a ride. Although maybe 65K is the expected salary for a senior analyst with 20 years experience :dunno:

[Mitsu3000gt]

Regarding my other point I think its strange how people go out of their way to justify why they are getting a low salary. I have another friend making 65K and hes a senior marketing analyst. He said the reason he doesnt push for salary increases and just gets what he is given is because he has to drop his kids off at school every morning. When I hear stories like that and then see the amount of money that his company makes I think he's just being taken for a ride. Although maybe 65K is the expected salary for a senior analyst with 20 years experience :dunno:

That seems like an extremely low salary for a Sr. Marketing Analyst (I assume O&G). That is barely more than what a 1st year low-level employee or summer student would make.

Most companies also have no problem with people working somewhat flexible hours to deal with their kids, so if he's an hour late every morning if he just worked an extra hour to even it out, most companies wouldn't bat an eye.

[nzwasp]

That seems like an extremely low salary for a Sr. Marketing Analyst (I assume O&G). That is barely more than what a 1st year low-level employee or summer student would make.

Most companies also have no problem with people working somewhat flexible hours to deal with their kids, so if he's an hour late every morning if he just worked an extra hour to even it out, most companies wouldn't bat an eye.

Yeah its non oil and gas but more in the retail / product marketing business.

Its hard to know what the market for IT salaries should be in Calgary because it seems to me like in traditional IT the salaries haven't really changed much in the last 10 years.

[Brent.ff]

unless you're going to flip employers, youre not gonna get a big bump in pay (and why would they if you're not saying boo?)

[bjstare]

In short, my response to OP question:
97863

I'm in a client services (read: billable hours) industry, and while all of us salaried employees work more than 40hrs/week, it's extremely rare to get paid OT. Our comp and upward mobility make up for it though, more or less.

We also more often than not structure contracts around 40h/week billing, and although there's not usually a direct correlation between hours billed and hours worked, there is a correlation between $ billed and hours worked.

[Misterman]

I'd rather not have "OT" pay as that just fucks with tax brackets if you end up with too much.


This is the craziest argument ever. I don't want extra money, because I spitefully don't want the government getting anything extra too.


I've never worked a job that didn't have 12 hour shifts. As a Contractor I have a set rate, and that's what I bill the customer no matter how many hours I work. It evened out with my regular time rate being so good, that it wasn't a big deal to not get paid OT. However now that the rates have gone to shit, they essentially want you to make less than a T4 employee, but also not get any benefits, vacation, pension, etc. I'm back to a T4 employee again now, OT is double time. But it's only on extra shifts, not on anything over 8 hours. Our shift schedule averages 42 hours per week.

OT is not mandatory, but it's also kind of mandatory. My position does not have enough qualified people, so vacation coverage is always covered by OT. If you want people covering your vacation time, you better plan to cover your cross shifts vacation.

[Darell_n]

Invention of salary was the original con scheme. The lazy should starve.

[Mitsu3000gt]

Invention of salary was the original con scheme. The lazy should starve.

It's pretty easy to be lazy as a contractor too, especially with WFH. You could bill for all kinds of hours that you aren't actually working. Also, if you submit time sheets monthly, your boss isn't going to remember if you worked 6 hours or 8 hours 25 days ago, so there is plenty of opportunity for the lazy or the dishonest depending on the situation. Some of the contractors I've worked with have been the laziest workers I have ever seen haha, but that is not to say that salaried workers can't be just as bad. If you're sitting in your office doing nothing, it doesn't really matter if you're salaried or hourly - you are still going to get paid to be there. I think in both cases as long as you're getting your work done, nobody is going to ask too many questions. As a contractor I never got performance reviews or anything like that either, so there was even less accountability compared to the salaried positions I've had - that may be different at other workplaces though.

[ercchry]

It’s funny how many people that get paid a salary actually think they’re “salaried” ...

You can’t just magically not get OT cause the Corp pays you your rate based on a set amount of hours... either you are a legally exempted professional, or you are not. Hourly, or salaried. It doesn’t matter. OT over 8hr/day AND 44hr/week... unless federally regulated corp and it’s over only 40hr/week (still 8hr/day)... for Alberta, Ontario gets boned with 44hr/week, no stipulation on daily hours. Some industries have different limits as well, like construction/trucking. Know your rights people! :rofl:

[Proyecto2000]

In my experience (O&G):

Salaried positions: OT is expected if needed without direct compensation, Often this more than balances out with various company perks like bonus days off, extra long weekends, getting told to go home at 2pm on a nice summer day occasionally, being able to leave for personal appointments like the Dentist without having to burn vacation days, etc. YMMV there of course.



This is how it works for me. I put in a ton of unpaid OT from September to end of March or whenever spring breakup hits and then I hope to get that time off with very short work days and 3 day weekend during spring and summer.

[dirtsniffer]

Do what's fair has treated me well in my professional career. Give and take and get shit done.

[jwslam]

I've never worked a job where my hours were billed to a client. But if My hours were getting billed, I'd want to get paid for them. Seems reasonable.
You've never met the clients where you have 20 hours of onboarding internal training about their HR policies, and they expect you to do that shit for free...

[schurchill39]

Personally I prefer to be salaried because then I can just focus on work and not on tracking time for pay. I always found that while on salary all of my short days, extended lunches, or appointments during work hours more than offset the 12-16 hour days I'd have to work when things got busy. I'm now straight billable time and if I have a short day because I need to go to the dentist or pick up my kids early I feel stressed that I'm "missing out on pay" even though when I work a 12 or 14 hour stretch in the next few days it all balances out.

As a contractor I think my ideal world would be a day rate no mater if you work 4 hours or 12 hours, but at the end of the day I would much rather be an employee making a salary and just get a hand shake "time in lieu".

Mind you as an engineer I'm not entitled to OT so maybe that's why I don't care?

[dirtsniffer]

I still try to go to the dentist at 7am. I swear coworkers of mine schedule it for 2pm to milk it as hard as they can

[nzwasp]

Personally I prefer to be salaried because then I can just focus on work and not on tracking time for pay. I always found that while on salary all of my short days, extended lunches, or appointments during work hours more than offset the 12-16 hour days I'd have to work when things got busy. I'm now straight billable time and if I have a short day because I need to go to the dentist or pick up my kids early I feel stressed that I'm "missing out on pay" even though when I work a 12 or 14 hour stretch in the next few days it all balances out.

As a contractor I think my ideal world would be a day rate no mater if you work 4 hours or 12 hours, but at the end of the day I would much rather be an employee making a salary and just get a hand shake "time in lieu".

Mind you as an engineer I'm not entitled to OT so maybe that's why I don't care?

Do engineers get paid more than techs? I’m not a tech or an engineer. Maybe beyond needs another salary survey.

[Brent.ff]

Whoever determined that ‘professionals’ shouldnt get OT was seriously riding their underlings...

[zechs]

It’s funny how many people that get paid a salary actually think they’re “salaried” ...

You can’t just magically not get OT cause the Corp pays you your rate based on a set amount of hours... either you are a legally exempted professional, or you are not. Hourly, or salaried. It doesn’t matter. OT over 8hr/day AND 44hr/week... unless federally regulated corp and it’s over only 40hr/week (still 8hr/day)... for Alberta, Ontario gets boned with 44hr/week, no stipulation on daily hours. Some industries have different limits as well, like construction/trucking. Know your rights people! :rofl:

This is the only answer.

As to the whole "do whats fair" deal, the employer only allows that because it benefits them. It never evens out.

Some people seem to suffer from a stockholm-esque conditioning when it comes to work and getting paid.

[killramos]

lol this thread is gold

[ExtraSlow]

My average dollars per hour is pretty good. But variable. Some weeks it's lower than I'd like. Luckily my posts/hour is high.

I was working 8;00-10:30 pm last night and 5:30-7:00 this morning too. Makes me a little grumpy, but I do plan to stop work for the week around 11:30 today.

[killramos]

My average dollars per hour is pretty good. But variable. Some weeks it's lower than I'd like. Luckily my posts/hour is high.

I was working 8;00-10:30 pm last night and 5:30-7:00 this morning too. Makes me a little grumpy, but I do plan to stop work for the week around 11:30 today.

What a chump.

[ExtraSlow]

Probably true.

[tirebob]

I have personally never worried about working overtime as a salaried employee, but then again I was always the guy who would advance the fastest and was given the most leeway and freedom in my life, and I think it was largely do to the fact I always worked like I owned the business rather than for the business. When I wanted to take days off or come in late from an early morning round of golf or whatever, I never got any hassles. When I needed something for myself the owners I worked for would always accommodate. I also always ended up making more money on salary than my coworkers. My theory has always been I work harder than I am getting paid for and become so valuable as an employee that they can't see a way to do without me so they make sure I am happy and it has almost always worked, and the very rare instances it hasn't, I was always a desired employee by other companies and had zero issue getting a new gig.

If you have a good employer, they recognize and reward, even if it isn't always in terms of cash in hand, but if you have an employer that doesn't see it then move on. I never saw the point in complaining about where I work. I work for my own reputation and that is more valuable than anything, so when a company doesn't live up to my expectations there was always another one that I could go to.

[gmc72]

Years ago, Worley (and likely others) would charge clients a 1.5x premium for hours exceeding 40/week (or whatever that person's regular scheduled hours were). The employee would get 1.00 hours in their bank. Where did that money go? Straight to some Australian kangaroo fucker's profit center. It was a fictional charge for an additional cost that wasn't borne. Once the employee had exceeded 40hr in their time bank, then and only then would they receive 1.5x their wage as extra money on their next cheque and it would only be for the extra hours "spilling out" of their bank. This was technically legal although obviously shitty.
The NDP changed this in a really vague way, so they stopped stealing from their clients and employees.
I'm pretty sure the UCP reversed what the NDP did, so I think it's back.

*This whole thing only applied to employees who were eligible for 1.5x which was some (not all, for some reason) Designers/Tech's and not engineers.

Having worked for Worley until last July, we banked our OT hours and could get it paid out at 1.5X at anytime, or use time in lieu. However, once you reached a certain level (team lead), you lost the 1.5X benefit. This was while I was salary. When I got switched to hourly after a lay off and brought back, they changed the schedule to every other Friday off. On the weeks that were 36 hours weeks if we worked overtime, it was regular pay. I would only get OT if it was during a 44 hour week, but only on top of the 44 hours. Managers would try and get us to work the OT during the short week to save some money, but it rarely worked out.

[mrsingh]

Paid overtime, what is that?

...My hours aren't billable to anything but internal cost centers, I work for a producer.

[killramos]

Paid overtime, what is that?

...My hours aren't billable to anything but internal cost centers, I work for a producer.

What a Chump, working for free.

[mrsingh]

What a Chump, working for free.

True story!

[sabad66]

Back when I was in IT Projects and billed time internally it was something crazy like $1200 USD a day as an intermediate level business analyst. I wish my salary was the same as my internal billing rate back then :rofl:

[mrsingh]

Back when I was in IT Projects and billed time internally it was something crazy like $1200 USD a day as an intermediate level business analyst. I wish my salary was the same as my internal billing rate back then :rofl:

So they turned their cost centers into profit centers, awesome! :thumbsup:

[ExtraSlow]

Back when I was in IT Projects and billed time internally it was something crazy like $1200 USD a day as an intermediate level business analyst. I wish my salary was the same as my internal billing rate back then :rofl:

Well, bill out rates should be roughly 2x what the individual makes.

[legendboy]

At the last co I worked for I had a sweet deal worked out as a salary employee, 1.5 time in off for OT worked

My new job guys just stay until their work is done. Working with some burned out engineers. The boss does give us flexibility when we need to take a few hours off here and there so I guess its ok

[schurchill39]

I have personally never worried about working overtime as a salaried employee, but then again I was always the guy who would advance the fastest and was given the most leeway and freedom in my life, and I think it was largely do to the fact I always worked like I owned the business rather than for the business. When I wanted to take days off or come in late from an early morning round of golf or whatever, I never got any hassles. When I needed something for myself the owners I worked for would always accommodate. I also always ended up making more money on salary than my coworkers. My theory has always been I work harder than I am getting paid for and become so valuable as an employee that they can't see a way to do without me so they make sure I am happy and it has almost always worked, and the very rare instances it hasn't, I was always a desired employee by other companies and had zero issue getting a new gig.

If you have a good employer, they recognize and reward, even if it isn't always in terms of cash in hand, but if you have an employer that doesn't see it then move on. I never saw the point in complaining about where I work. I work for my own reputation and that is more valuable than anything, so when a company doesn't live up to my expectations there was always another one that I could go to.

QFT. There is more benefit than just cash in hand, I like that and completely agree

[mrsingh]

Well, bill out rates should be roughly 2x what the individual makes.

Yes but he is talking out billing out internally. So I read that as billing out to other groups within the organization! (Not on knock on him obviously, and honestly not the first time I have seen that).

[suntan]

Yeah its non oil and gas but more in the retail / product marketing business.

Its hard to know what the market for IT salaries should be in Calgary because it seems to me like in traditional IT the salaries haven't really changed much in the last 10 years.

The average programmer salary in Canada is around $60K.

Almost everybody leaves for the USA where salaries can be 3X.

$100-120/hr for contract was standard, but recent events have lowered that waaaay down to $60/hr.

[Darell_n]

The average programmer salary in Canada is around $60K.

Almost everybody leaves for the USA where salaries can be 3X.

$100-120/hr for contract was standard, but recent events have lowered that waaaay down to $60/hr.

With your math the average programmer in Canada works 10 days / month.

[killramos]

Equating contract and salary comp is a bad idea

[suntan]

With your math the average programmer in Canada works 10 days / month.

Salary vs contract.