Fees for using Kananasikis

[duaner]

Is this going to work or backfire by keeping people away?

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/alberta/article-alberta-to-impose-90-access-fee-for-kananaskis-after-surge-in-vehicle/

"Albertans who want to hike, ski or otherwise play in Kananaskis Country will have to pay to access the area come June 1, when a $90 per-vehicle annual fee comes into effect.
...
The annual pass will be tied to licence plates, but visitors will also have the option to pay $15 per day. Among those exempt from the fee will be low-income earners and First Nations people. Much like the system in place in Banff National Park, the fee will apply to anyone who uses park facilities."

[finboy]

Being discussed in camping thread

[ExtraSlow]

Probably better to have this in here separate from camping. Lots more than just about camping.

[killramos]

User fees are the best form of taxation.

[jwslam]

Sounds like once you find a carpool buddy, they're taking a lot of miles on their car.

[ExtraSlow]

Accurate, although they often hurt my feelings.

[pheoxs]

How would the 15$ per day option work? Are they going to set up toll booths like Banff? Is it electronic with an app?

[nzwasp]

Sounds like once you find a carpool buddy, they're taking a lot of miles on their car.

Sounds like that gas station on highway one is gonna need to build a longer service road or a carpark

[killramos]

Gestapo cars like CPA.

Get your plate scanned in the park without paying and get a bill in the mail.

[nzwasp]

How would the 15$ per day option work? Are they going to set up toll booths like Banff? Is it electronic with an app?

When ever I have hiked lately a bylaw or Alberta parks officer has been checking all the cars

[Rowdy]

Another genius move by the Kenny Gov. Soooo this will go towards hiring more officers that can now spend their time looking for permits and issuing fines for lack of said permit? Awesome. Brilliant choice, additional fees for people trying to do one of the few activities that are available due to the pandemic and lockdowns. Camping rates are already shocking, so let's make a fee that gets those people plus the hikers.

I get it, K country has become insanely crowded, the way people park on popular trails is crazy, the amount of garbage is out of control, but this is not the answer. I sure hope I have to eat my words and this leads to a noticeable change in the park.

Just my humble 2 cents.

[suntan]

Another genius move by the Kenny Gov. Soooo this will go towards hiring more officers that can now spend their time looking for permits and issuing fines for lack of said permit? Awesome. Brilliant choice, additional fees for people trying to do one of the few activities that are available due to the pandemic and lockdowns. Camping rates are already shocking, so let's make a fee that gets those people plus the hikers.

I get it, K country has become insanely crowded, the way people park on popular trails is crazy, the amount of garbage is out of control, but this is not the answer. I sure hope I have to eat my words and this leads to a noticeable change in the park.

Just my humble 2 cents.

What would you do?

[ExtraSlow]

Need parkplus cars doing the enforecement. Get CPA to do it, very low overhead.

[killramos]

Everyone’s copying my ideas today

[ExtraSlow]

game recognize game

[Xtrema]

Another genius move by the Kenny Gov. Soooo this will go towards hiring more officers that can now spend their time looking for permits and issuing fines for lack of said permit? Awesome. Brilliant choice, additional fees for people trying to do one of the few activities that are available due to the pandemic and lockdowns. Camping rates are already shocking, so let's make a fee that gets those people plus the hikers.

I get it, K country has become insanely crowded, the way people park on popular trails is crazy, the amount of garbage is out of control, but this is not the answer. I sure hope I have to eat my words and this leads to a noticeable change in the park.

Just my humble 2 cents.

Well, price is one way to reduce demand. But given we fund our police with speeding tickets, I don't think parking/access fee to fund parks is that far of a stretch. And we are not the 1st to do so.

https://www.ontarioparks.com/fees/dayuse/2019

[msommers]

$90/yr per vehicle is stupid expensive when you consider $140 for a National Park pass that is a physical pass good for a family/multiple cars in a household and it's good for every park across Canada. Fuck you to whoever proposed this.

[cet]

They have info up on the government site now:

https://www.alberta.ca/kananaskis-conservation-pass.aspx

$15/day, $90/year for 2 cars, no extra for trailers

[killramos]

Couldn’t we have just made the rich pay for the parks.

[jabjab]

they say that the fee's are due to the increase of stress on the environment so is the fee designed to keep people away, save the environment, or just a way to generate revenue. Given that, its not a big deal in my opinion.

[Buster]

sweet. I wish they made it way more.

[sabad66]

I wonder what the fine print is around the 2 plates. Two solo cars could probably split the $90 fee to make it half price.

[Rowdy]

What would you do?

The stats show that in 2020 about 290,000 camping reservations were made, which is about 100,000 more than 2019. The stat they quote states 5 million visitors in the park in 2020. Pretty obvious that due to the pandemic people needed options for activities. The outdoors are considered a "safer" choice for the public.

The minister stated the park well exceeded its budget for the year, and the goal of the program is $15 million in fees generated. The creation of new programs often costs the public more money than the programs generate. In my opinion, adding more government programs in areas where programs already exist tends to just create bureaucratic bloat. This UCP government seems hell-bent on spending money towards image vs results, for example, the whole Energy War Room nightmare.

Don't waste money creating a "new" program, look to the people who currently run those parks, ask them what they need, and then give it to them and monitor impact. Provide more Conservation staff, enforce current parking restrictions (that alone will reduce people in the parks if that is the goal) and increase the garbage bins and collection frequency. I don't believe them at all that the park will see all the revenue from the program, and they always quote the expected revenue without ever mention the operational cost.

So my long-winded answer lol? Quit the bullshit with wasteful image building crap like the Energy War Room. Don't expect us to believe this fee will actually generate $15 Million for the parks directly. Focus back on other government waste spending. Increase funding for the parks and entrust the current parks system to fix the problems they see.

Oh and if you could show some actual leadership around this pandemic and lockdowns, that would be great.

[rx7boi]

sweet. I wish they made it way more.

:rofl: :rofl:

In other news, Buster is looking for a bodyguard to keep all the poors a minimum of 10 feet away from him.

[ZenOps]

They should put a solar panel array alongside the highway with appropriate sized Lifepo4 batteries at touristy (and sunny) spots, and then make it free to use for anyone who paid the pass. Thats my take, impresses the tourists and get high visibility as saviours of the earth.

[Buster]

The stats show that in 2020 about 290,000 camping reservations were made, which is about 100,000 more than 2019. The stat they quote states 5 million visitors in the park in 2020. Pretty obvious that due to the pandemic people needed options for activities. The outdoors are considered a "safer" choice for the public.

The minister stated the park well exceeded its budget for the year, and the goal of the program is $15 million in fees generated. The creation of new programs often costs the public more money than the programs generate. In my opinion, adding more government programs in areas where programs already exist tends to just create bureaucratic bloat. This UCP government seems hell-bent on spending money towards image vs results, for example, the whole Energy War Room nightmare.

Don't waste money creating a "new" program, look to the people who currently run those parks, ask them what they need, and then give it to them and monitor impact. Provide more Conservation staff, enforce current parking restrictions (that alone will reduce people in the parks if that is the goal) and increase the garbage bins and collection frequency. I don't believe them at all that the park will see all the revenue from the program, and they always quote the expected revenue without ever mention the operational cost.

So my long-winded answer lol? Quit the bullshit with wasteful image building crap like the Energy War Room. Don't expect us to believe this fee will actually generate $15 Million for the parks directly. Focus back on other government waste spending. Increase funding for the parks and entrust the current parks system to fix the problems they see.

Oh and if you could show some actual leadership around this pandemic and lockdowns, that would be great.

Your solution is "more government efficiency". Good luck with that.

[ThePenIsMightier]

How would the 15$ per day option work? Are they going to set up toll booths like Banff? Is it electronic with an app?

I require an attendant that speaks French and Cree, but not English.

[sabad66]

Don't waste money creating a "new" program, look to the people who currently run those parks, ask them what they need, and then give it to them and monitor impact. Provide more Conservation staff, enforce current parking restrictions (that alone will reduce people in the parks if that is the goal) and increase the garbage bins and collection frequency. I don't believe them at all that the park will see all the revenue from the program, and they always quote the expected revenue without ever mention the operational cost.


More conservation staff, enforcement of parking, increase # of bins/collection frequency all costs money. So you're saying they should just cut other programs outside of parks (or more likely put it on AB's HELOC) to pay for this?

[duaner]

sweet. I wish they made it way more.

I wish they made it less. I just want to fish once in a while or go for a short hike. I don't think I will go enough to justify $90 and $15 to fish for a few hours seems a bit steep. Although, it will likely keep the crowds down a bit and maybe be better for fishing.

[nzwasp]

After reading the rules its unclear whether or not you need one to visit Canmore? its within the map where the pass is required.

[Brent.ff]

More conservation staff, enforcement of parking, increase # of bins/collection frequency all costs money. So you're saying they should just cut other programs outside of parks (or more likely put it on AB's HELOC) to pay for this?

Yes. Like the war room. This fee is gonna make up 1/3 of warroom... so why not just cancel that sham?

- - - Updated - - -


After reading the rules its unclear whether or not you need one to visit Canmore? its within the map where the pass is required.

The town of canmore is private land. Go into park land nearby (grassi lakes, ha long, Nordic centre), you need pass.


Honestly I don’t see this solving crowding at places like Highwood pass, but maybe reduce the half dayers that are using Upper K Lake as a picnic spot instead of in Calgary.

[Rowdy]

Your solution is "more government efficiency". Good luck with that.

LOL come on man, let me hold onto one fantasy.

[2Legit2Quit]

If the money actually goes back into the region then great, dare to dream I suppose.

[sabad66]

Yes. Like the war room. This fee is gonna make up 1/3 of warroom... so why not just cancel that sham?


i don't disagree that the war room was dumb. I would actually support both (this user fee and canceling the war room). As long as AB is running a deficit they gotta do what they can to save costs and generate revenue.

[Nufy]

I had 2 x sat morning tee times last summer at Kananaskis.

When we were leaving afterwards around noon ish... every trail head was full and parking was along the highway on each side for quite a ways as well.

Not sure if its like that every Saturday but seemed a bit out of control. Maybe people were a bit stir crazy after the lockdown and winter etc...

Not sure if a user fee will calm this. Depends on enforcement I guess.

[nzwasp]

I had 2 x sat morning tee times last summer at Kananaskis.

When we were leaving afterwards around noon ish... every trail head was full and parking was along the highway on each side for quite a ways as well.

Not sure if its like that every Saturday but seemed a bit out of control. Maybe people were a bit stir crazy after the lockdown and winter etc...

Not sure if a user fee will calm this. Depends on enforcement I guess.

It is like that at the moment and has been since start of March.

[vengie]

Excellent news.

[2020]

Fingers crossed some cheap campers will cancel their reservations this summer over the fees

[Tik-Tok]

I'd be more ok with this if it were a tempory solution to a temporary problem. In 3 years, the parks will have almost the same number of visitors as it did pre-covid, except this will never be rescinded.

[killramos]

Everyone wants better parks services, they just get real ornery when asked to pay for it.

[Tik-Tok]

Everyone wants better parks services, they just get real ornery when asked to pay for it.

We already pay for it though. We have been for 80 years.

Edit: How about some volunteer cleanup crews? If that doesn't work, tax credit "paid" cleanup crews.

[killramos]

We already pay for it though. We have been for 80 years.

Is there a point hidden in there?

Yes parks cost money and always have. Sky is blue.

If we can push more of those costs on the people who actually use them? A+ policy.

[Brent.ff]

Is there a point hidden in there?

Yes parks cost money and always have. Sky is blue.

If we can push more of those costs on the people who actually use them? A+ policy.

Like public schooling? I don’t have kids, you free loaders can start paying for use of that

[killramos]

Like public schooling? I don’t have kids, you free loaders can start paying for use of that

Fine by me

[Buster]

Like public schooling? I don’t have kids, you free loaders can start paying for use of that

This is a great idea.

Gov't should get out of the business of a LOT of things.

[killramos]

This is a great idea.

Gov't should get out of the business of a LOT of things.

Bonus points for keeping government loons as far away from kids as possible

[suntan]

Like public schooling? I don’t have kids, you free loaders can start paying for use of that

Let's do the same with medical care!

[killramos]

Let's do the same with medical care!

Best idea yet.

Great thread. We are really getting somewhere now.

[suntan]

Best idea yet.

Great thread. We are really getting somewhere now.

Boy if those old people think school is expensive, wait till they find out how much a triple bypass costs.

[Darell_n]

I know you need a visible license plate to park on a public street, how about a gravel lot in K-country? If they are just driving around scanning plates just toss your plate on your floor while hiking. Fortunately the Ghost , Waiparous and McLean areas are exempt.

[FraserB]

I know you need a visible license plate to park on a public street, how about a gravel lot in K-country? If they are just driving around scanning plates just toss your plate on your floor while hiking. Fortunately the Ghost , Waiparous and McLean areas are exempt.

Highway under the TSA, need a plate and registration

[Tik-Tok]

Boy if those old people think school is expensive, wait till they find out how much a triple bypass costs.

That's their fault for not doing lifts, bro.

[Xtrema]

I'd be more ok with this if it were a tempory solution to a temporary problem. In 3 years, the parks will have almost the same number of visitors as it did pre-covid, except this will never be rescinded.

Nothing will change after this fee except it now covers 10% of Parks budget.

If overcrowding is an issue (I was part of this guilty party during winter) then this will definitely address it to a degree.

[mr2mike]

I'd be more ok with this if it were a tempory solution to a temporary problem. In 3 years, the parks will have almost the same number of visitors as it did pre-covid, except this will never be rescinded.

You thought ahead! Shame on you! That's not how you get one of these 70 jobs they're hiring for.
Basically this will end up in large overall costs in future years solely based on the reduced visitors after pandemic.

What the government should do is contract out garbage collection for the time being and have a fee to carry those costs.

[Buster]

:rofl: :rofl:

In other news, Buster is looking for a bodyguard to keep all the poors a minimum of 10 feet away from him.

Let them eat bread!

[ExtraSlow]

Full price unsubsidized bread.

[dromz]

Too many people who don't pick up their shit after them, crazy how people can't respect such a beautiful environment. I'm not for more taxes but something had to be done.

[dirtsniffer]

I was way behind...

Anyways, user fees are great and I'm happy to pay to support parks.

[suntan]

Too many people who don't pick up their shit after them, crazy how people can't respect such a beautiful environment. I'm not for more taxes but something had to be done.

The amount of garbage I’ve seen is insane. Absolute disrespect.

[dirtsniffer]

Heard gen xers are leaving troll dolls all over troll falls..

[ExtraSlow]

I've learned that campsites are far too inexpensive. Or more specifically, changes and cancellations to campsite reservations are far too inexpensive.

- - - Updated - - -


Heard gen xers are leaving troll dolls all over troll falls..

I think that's all boomers.

- - - Updated - - -

Maybe a $50 non-refundable reservation fee and an additional $100 change fee?

[davidI]

Too many people who don't pick up their shit after them, crazy how people can't respect such a beautiful environment. I'm not for more taxes but something had to be done.

This. Funny how the same people who are crazy anti-industry due to environmental impact are also staunchly against this attempt to reduce the environmental impact of people (I personally think both need to be handled better but find the hypocrisy rather funny).

I'm pretty disappointed in the UCP overall but this seems like a reasonable move. I think there should be a mandatory 10 minute video and 10 question quiz on basic environmental respect as part of purchasing the permit as well. Completely big-brother (which I don't really like) but people are f*cking morons and that way there are no excuses or warnings to be given by conservation officers. You signed off that you know the rules so pay the price for breaking them.

[ExtraSlow]

Wonder if the fee for this area will spill over into more enforcement in nearby areas without fees, where you know use will skyrocket too.

[Masked Bandit]

My initial reaction was negative because this overcrowding is a very temporary issue but then I remembered that back in the day, growing up in the great republic of Saskatchistan people had to buy annual passes to the provincial parks, they were little stickers that went on the window of your car. I don't know what the cost was but it's not like this is a new idea.

[eblend]

I'd be more ok with this if it were a tempory solution to a temporary problem. In 3 years, the parks will have almost the same number of visitors as it did pre-covid, except this will never be rescinded.

This. I will vote for whoever rescinds this on their platform. I don't care about anything else, but this is just bullshit. Let's take the one activity everyone is able to do during a pandemic, and tax the shit out of it. Once travel opens up, all of these newly found hippies will go back to international travel and the parts will be back to normal level that didn't cost any extra. All these fees will go towards enforcement officers salary, and nothing towards parks. Anyone who thinks this will make Kananaskis a better place is kidding themselves. I for one will find somewhere else to go personally. I hike like once or twice a year, nice free activity, at least it was, so will find somewhere else to go.

[rc2002]

Nothing will change after this fee except it now covers 10% of Parks budget.

If overcrowding is an issue (I was part of this guilty party during winter) then this will definitely address it to a degree.

So the fee should be 10 times higher?

If they really want to maximize revenue they should also enforce it daily. Then they can add more ticket revenue too.

[ExtraSlow]

I know. Really aggressive tow trucks and a super expensive shuttle bus to the impound lot out somewhere near fortress junction.

Plus snipers with poison darts overlooking day use areas. Antidote is $1000/dose.

[Buster]

This. I will vote for whoever rescinds this on their platform. I don't care about anything else, but this is just bullshit. Let's take the one activity everyone is able to do during a pandemic, and tax the shit out of it. Once travel opens up, all of these newly found hippies will go back to international travel and the parts will be back to normal level that didn't cost any extra. All these fees will go towards enforcement officers salary, and nothing towards parks. Anyone who thinks this will make Kananaskis a better place is kidding themselves. I for one will find somewhere else to go personally. I hike like once or twice a year, nice free activity, at least it was, so will find somewhere else to go.

Hiking twice per year is going to cost you thirty bucks for two carloads of people.

[killramos]

The kind of people who think this fee is too much money to use the park. Are the kind of people I don’t want using it.

[ExtraSlow]

I personally will vote for whatever candidate looks like they'll make someone else pay for things.

[nzwasp]

I think the govt is going to make a reasonable amount of money with this, has anyone been out to west bragg creek in the last 4 months, everytime ive been there on a saturday or sunday the entire carpark plus all the way down the roads have been full.

I actually hope if the NDP get into govt again they just bring in a 7% PST so we can get back to fucking balance on our budget, enough with skirting around the issue and penny pinching everything else.

[killramos]

The NDP are going to balance the budget…

The shit you read on the internet lol

[nzwasp]

of course not but they would put in the PST to help balance the budget by the UCP which would get in after them (after everyone is pissed off from this round)

[Buster]

Every service will be paid for by the gov't....by taxes raised on the guy who is earning an income just more than theirs

[davidI]

I actually hope if the NDP get into govt again they just bring in a 7% PST so we can get back to fucking balance on our budget, enough with skirting around the issue and penny pinching everything else.

They'll just use the revenue to hire another 30,000 people to vote... err, work for them.

[dirtsniffer]

The NDP aren't putting in a PST. In their opinion, it isn't a fair form of taxation. Not nearly enough 'tax the rich' involved. Nor would they ever balance the budget.

[kertejud2]

Since when do Albertans care about balancing the budget?

The dumbest thing about the plan is the pass being tied to cars, and not being applicable to all parks. Saskatchewan has a simple 'copy and paste' one that does just that, and basically mimics the National Park policy which pretty much washes away any political grandstanding with it and makes it cheap to check compliance across the province. One fee, all parks, transferable. Cheap to implement, cheaper to enforce, more palatable for the voting base.

This is both bad operationally, and politically, which is very on brand for this government.

[Buster]

The NDP do not want to just grow gov't, they want to create dependency on gov't. Actually, that's pretty much the MO for all current governments, especially the feds.

[dirtsniffer]

Hopefully next up is an emergency room user fee

[Buster]

Hopefully next up is an emergency room user fee

low income and First Nations exempt, of course

[killramos]

Since when do Albertans care about balancing the budget?

Dunno say around ‘99 before all the eastern creeps and bums started moving here for jerbs and bringing their garbage politics with them?

[2Legit2Quit]

It sucks that something that was "free" is no longer free, but if it's for the sake of conservation then I'm cool with it. Provinces, states, various places around the world have parks that have a fee associated with entry so like others said this is nothing new.

For all the comments I see outside of here regarding the fee where people are reeeeeeeeeeeeeeee'ing saying they can't afford to go to Kananaskis any more, how the fuck are you able to afford the gas to drive out there then?

[killramos]

low income and First Nations exempt, of course

Low income defined as anyone who makes under 100k/year, naturally.

[Xtrema]

Dunno say around ‘99 before all the eastern creeps and bums started moving here for jerbs and bringing their garbage politics with them?

Getty and Lougheed were red tories before Ralph balanced our budget. Ralph is the anomaly, not the norm.

[ExtraSlow]

I miss the heritage fund.

[SkiBum5.0]

$25 for a car, $25 for a boat pass at our local Sask Prov Park by our farm

[vengie]

This thread is hilarious.

Highlights
1) NDP Balance a budget. LMFAO
2) $90/ year for an entire car is "taxing the shit" out of you

These day use areas have turned into an absolute cesspool, with garbage and trash all over the place.
This fee will allow the parks to hire more enforcement to keep things clean, as it should be.
The human race is embarrassing with how little we care about litter and garbage.

Hack, if you're Aboriginal or Metis there is no fee for use.

Enough internet for today.

[Brent.ff]

This fee will allow the parks to hire more enforcement to keep things clean, as it should be.

'
Honestly, if it does this, im all for it. I am just skeptical. Why is this pass going to 'widening 1A at Morley'? Why does it specifically leave out Maclean Creek which annually gets fucked by rednecks. The '20' COs theyre hiring are province wide, not Kananaskis specific..

[ExtraSlow]

20 more CO's will go a long way towards fixing places like MacLean Creek and Dutch Creek etc. You could have a full time one at MacLean from April to November and they'd be busy every day. Actually need about 4 to ensure 24/7 coverage at any one hotspot.

[2Legit2Quit]

Map of the pass areas - https://www.alberta.ca/assets/documents/ep-kananaskis-conservation-pass-area-access-map.pdf

[Brent.ff]

20 more CO's will go a long way towards fixing places like MacLean Creek and Dutch Creek etc. You could have a full time one at MacLean from April to November and they'd be busy every day. Actually need about 4 to ensure 24/7 coverage at any one hotspot.

the province is a big place for 20 dudes.. If maclean creek has specifically been removed from this pass, i would doubt any additional presence there

[Xtrema]

Map of the pass areas - https://www.alberta.ca/assets/documents/ep-kananaskis-conservation-pass-area-access-map.pdf

lol can the exclusion of Off-Highway Vehicle PLUZ ever more obvious to make sure UCP base doesn't have to pay?

[killramos]

Carving out McLean and Waiperous is a massive missed opportunity IMO.

[Twin_Cam_Turbo]

Hopefully this calms down the amount of cars and traffic because last years’ charity cruise out there had some real slow sections :D

[ExtraSlow]

I am angry about nearly everything these days, and the specifics of this will just be added to that long list.

[suntan]

lol can the exclusion of Off-Highway Vehicle PLUZ ever more obvious to make sure UCP base doesn't have to pay?

Hey the litterers can join their fellow brethren over there then and enjoy nature.

[Xtrema]

Hol up, Canmore too?

It now gonna cost me $15 extra to head out to Crazyweed for lunch?

[Buster]

Speaking of which...what's up with camping bookings? I don't camp, because I'm a modern human being with a house and a shower and a mattress.

But my friends all spaz about getting up at 7am or something to rush to book camping spots all of the place when the bookings open.

That sounds dumb. Why don't the campground owners (terrible job I bet), just raise their prices and let supply meet demand?

[pheoxs]

The kind of people who think this fee is too much money to use the park. Are the kind of people I don’t want using it.

My issue is its a high fee for one area. Why not just make a Alberta provincial park pass like the Banff pass and then go that route. Raise money for the whole province to improve our campgrounds and parks. Done. All this is going to do is push people to other areas around Kananaskis or into Banff and cause distribution issues as other places get busier.


Speaking of which...what's up with camping bookings? I don't camp, because I'm a modern human being with a house and a shower and a mattress.

But my friends all spaz about getting up at 7am or something to rush to book camping spots all of the place when the bookings open.

That sounds dumb. Why don't the campground owners (terrible job I bet), just raise their prices and let supply meet demand?

Private campsites can book whatever they want whenever. Its the provincial parks that use a 90 day rolling window to release spots. So if you want a long weekend you have to book 3 months out. (Though they have shitty rules where people can overbook/slide to get those spots early.

[Brent.ff]

Hol up, Canmore too?

It now gonna cost me $15 extra to head out to Crazyweed for lunch?

Canmore is private land, you wont need it for there. Once you go into the provincial parks/pluz that surround, you would