Custom Home Build - Water Softener/Filtration

[Cagare]

We are in the middle of planning a custom home build. I know that we will be installing a water softener, that's for sure.

The things I am debating on are a whole home activated carbon filter and/or possibly a reverse osmosis system for both the fridge and a tap at the sink. I know from the research I have done there is a benefit for the softener to have the carbon filter taking out chlorine, but it is not critical. I also know that a proper carbon filter will last 7-10 years before the carbon media needs to be replaced. It seems beneficial to me because it removes the needs for further carbon based filtration either through a fridge filter or a brita. It's probably the same cost over the time frame to run separate carbon filters, but a lot more convenient. It seems like a decent value to me but curious to know if anyone else uses this in their home and their thoughts.

The reverse osmosis (RO) system seems of less potential value to me, and more maintenance. I don't think City water is that bad tbh, aside from removing chlorine in the system I am not fussed over RO water. The reason I am considering it is because in a new build I could place the RO filters in the basement and run lines to a faucet near the sink and a line to the fridge from the RO system. It would give clear ice in the fridge and the option at the sink. The issues I take with it is the water wasted for the process, and the need to replace 3 pre-filters annually. There is probably an annual cost of $100-200 between filters and waste water, and then the eventually RO filter replacement as well. I don't think there are huge advantages to RO water, or any negative issues either. Again, the big reason to do it in the build process is so I can place it in a utility room and make it easier to manage with less risk in the future of putting it under your sink. Curious to thoughts on those that have RO systems or have had them in the past.

Any web searches yield millions of websites advertising their products, there seems to be a lot of snake oil in the works too. I have even seen the Kinetico systems, while interesting, charge quite a premium for doing the same effective thing as others, without the ability to buy universal filters from anyone in the future and tying you to their products from their distributers. People seem to really like their products all the same.

Any other thoughts on this end of things would be appreciated.

[Darell_n]

Just be aware that RO water is slightly corrosive to most metals and not necessarily healthy to consume.

[ExtraSlow]

Rough it in, and rough in a hot water circulation loop, and while you are at it, make the utility room bigger so you can easily replace HWT or other items.

[Cagare]

Rough it in, and rough in a hot water circulation loop, and while you are at it, make the utility room bigger so you can easily replace HWT or other items.

Definitely plan on a hot water circulation loop. Could easily just run the 3/4" lines for a second tap under the counter and plan for the fridge also. The fridge is immediately above the utility room, the kitchen sink will not be though.

Utility room is definitely oversized. Currently it's a 32" door leading into the utility room. Probably worth considering a 36" door for the utility room access.

[ThePenIsMightier]

I say fuck all the extra shit. Potable water is potable and our standards are ludicrously high.
36" door is smart, plus making that door a solid door is absolutely a mandatory life saver!

Note that generally, the cold half of the kitchen sink is not softened water and neither is your fridge. I T'd mine such that the fridge is softened while the kitchen sink cold still is not.

[arcticcat522]

I didn't think you should drink softened water? Is that the case?

[ThePenIsMightier]

I didn't think you should drink softened water? Is that the case?

There are those that feel that way, but it's a bit like fear of fluoride.

[you&me]

I don't know much about it because it was here when we moved in, but we have the full-meal-deal Kinetico system and it sucks.

The idiocy of the filter change process is enough to make me want to rip it out and certainly wouldn't go to the hassle & expense of installing in a new build.

[killramos]

I don't know much about it because it was here when we moved in, but we have the full-meal-deal Kinetico system and it sucks.

The idiocy of the filter change process is enough to make me want to rip it out and certainly wouldn't go to the hassle & expense of installing in a new build.

I haven’t heard a lot of bad things about Kinetico before, aside from price.

Do you like the softener performance or is it the other jewelry they added on for the package that is irritating?

I think I would want a softener of some kind in a new build

[you&me]

I haven’t heard a lot of bad things about Kinetico before, aside from price.

Do you like the softener performance or is it the other jewelry they added on for the package that is irritating?

I think I would want a softener of some kind in a new build

I guess I was being overly dramatic. The softener is appreciated and works fine.

We also have the drinking water system, which is cartridge based and for us, requires frequent changes... When the cartridges are toast, water won't flow through the system (I get why, but I'd survive with tap water in the icemarker in the short term). Besides that, the process to change the cartridges is idiotic and the ~$150 per change is an extra flick to the berries.

[jwslam]

hot water circulation loop
Those are supposed to be damaging if you use tankless?

[ExtraSlow]

Those are supposed to be damaging if you use tankless?
I know nothing about tankless aside from the fact that I don't want to have it in my house

[Darell_n]

I didn't think you should drink softened water? Is that the case?

Soft water is essentially bottled water. Pure RO and distilled water, not so good long term.

[ThePenIsMightier]

Soft water is essentially bottled water. Pure RO and distilled water, not so good long term.

I don't follow the bottled water analogy. Water in Edmonton, Calgary and many other parts of Alberta is "hard" which generally means it has dissolved Calcium and Magnesium naturally in it. A softener is an ion exchanger which replaces those dissolved ions (which are really dissolved salts) with another dissolved salt where the ion is Sodium.
Dissolved Mg and Ca cause what everyone calls "lime scale buildup" while Na (essentially) does not. This buildup makes the inside of your dishwasher look like shit, it cakes into its heating element and cakes up your hot water tank, it makes that creepy powder in your melted ice cubes, it fucks up your tea kettle, it clogs your faucet aerators, and it eventually builds up in your piping enough that it restricts flow (in decades). It also makes soap lather poorly.
Can you drink this extra salt from softened water? Salt bad!
Well, it's not extra salt. You were already drinking Mg & Ca salts and now you're drinking Na salt. Plus, it's not like you're suddenly drinking ocean water. It's on a microscopic level and you can't taste it.

As for prolonged drinking RO water... I think the theory is that humans are designed to drink water that has trace dissolved elements in it and at a lower pH (due to rain and Carbonic Acid) than pure, pure water. I think there are people who believe this pure water confuses your body and causes it to not absorb and utilize dissolved elements properly. I don't really know much about that...

[tha_bandit]

all i know is i can't use the softener water (every tap in the house almost) to water plants, and RO water is good for the kettle and better tasting for coffee/tea

[schurchill39]

all i know is i can't use the softener water (every tap in the house almost) to water plants, and RO water is good for the kettle and better tasting for coffee/tea

Why cant we use softened water to water plants?

[ThePenIsMightier]

Why cant we use softened water to water plants?

I've heard this a lot, too and I should've mentioned earlier that plumbing often has non-softened water leading to exterior hose bibs.
Plants (and grass) don't like chlorine and they don't like salt. Again, magnesium and calcium are dissolved salt ions, so it's not like drinking water is poison to plants. But, I think they like Sodium even less?
It's similar to seeing how much better your garden will thrive with rain water instead of human drinking water. It's noticeable.

Look up the term "salting the earth" for some of the fun ways that humans have figured out how to capitalize on this science.

[killramos]

I’ve seen that.

But I have also seen softened water run to irrigation systems because calcification and shown minimal detrimental effects to plant growth.

I wouldn’t overthink it personally.

[tha_bandit]

yea just the salt content, goes into the pot over time as well, doesn't drain well obviously like outdoors

[Darell_n]

Softeners add a tiny amount of sodium to the water, not sodium chloride. You are not salting anything by using softened water.

[ThePenIsMightier]

Softeners add a tiny amount of sodium to the water, not sodium chloride. You are not salting anything by using softened water.

True, but we drink chlorinated water, so the Cl- is already floating around in there.

[tha_bandit]

Softeners add a tiny amount of sodium to the water, not sodium chloride. You are not salting anything by using softened water.

even that tiny amount seems to have an effect on my plants, and especially fresh cut flowers as well.

[Darell_n]

even that tiny amount seems to have an effect on my plants, and especially fresh cut flowers as well.

That may be the lack of other minerals, not the addition of sodium. I’m no botanist though. Does using potassium instead of sodium in a softener help with plants at all?

[killramos]

You should really be watering your plants with Fiji water if you care about their well being

[Darell_n]

You should really be watering your plants with Fiji water if you care about their well being

Everybody knows that plants desire draft beer urine and old coffee grounds. Maybe a little fish poo water for an occasional treat.

[redline]

I have the full kinetico system in my house … it is great.

Softener and decolonization and RO water system that goes to fridge and sink. I also have the rare mineralization option as well …water is super tasty

[ThePenIsMightier]

Everybody knows that plants desire draft beer urine and old coffee grounds. Maybe a little fish poo water for an occasional treat.

Idiot! It's called Brawndo.
It's got what plants crave!

[killramos]

Don’t you Aspenites have staff to water your foliage?

And they bring their own plant water, can’t have the help using your faucets.

[ThePenIsMightier]

Don’t you Aspenites have staff to water your foliage?

And they bring their own plant water, can’t have the help using your faucets.

Pronounce it correctly!


https://youtu.be/iBYvk1IGPZg


Nnnnno...


https://youtu.be/uklF7VtqJq8

[Buster]

Has anyone looked at one of those salt free water conditioner dealies? Seems city water users that don't care about "soft" water, but want descaling could see some benefit to switching to one of these. My water softener went kaput a while back, and I'm thinking of switching.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NIIAwWolnLQ

[suntan]

Yeah my parents have one. It works.

[ThePenIsMightier]

Wow, that's a hard no.
All of the inconvenience of additional equipment and 30% of the benefits of a softener.

Plus, you're already plumbed for a softener so you could throw your existing one out and set a new one in there, today. That's the way to go. New ones are so, so much better than those terrible ones that are tricking water eternally. They have automatic re-gen cycles programmed for 03:00

[prae]

I'm doing something similar-ish (emphasis on the ish) on a smaller scale for just my espresso machine. I use resin ion-exchange filters to soften the water supplied to the machine like https://www.aquatell.ca/products/pentek-ws-20bb-water-softening-cartridge-155321-43 These work on the same basis as a larger, salt-rinsed resin-media softeners without all the mechanics that do the regeneration backwash; you just throw the resin cartridge away once it's ability to pick out calcium from your water is depleted.

I don't think it would be cost- or empirically- effective at large-scale whole-home water delivery

Matt Risinger is doing a whole home version of this with some kind of citric acid based filter? I don't understand the chemistry there. https://www.instagram.com/p/CVq4y5sL4tp/

he expects $125USD every six months. at that rate, you sure as fuck are better off shelling out $800 for a replacement traditional softener.

edit: read the comments on that IG post I linked- that'd turn me off immediately from the larger whole-home sized filters.

Personally I've never found the hardness of Calgary water to be all that problematic for our appliances. Although scale buildup did kill the shutoff valve in our dishwasher.

[Buster]

Wow, that's a hard no.
All of the inconvenience of additional equipment and 30% of the benefits of a softener.

Plus, you're already plumbed for a softener so you could throw your existing one out and set a new one in there, today. That's the way to go. New ones are so, so much better than those terrible ones that are tricking water eternally. They have automatic re-gen cycles programmed for 03:00

You're probably right. I know that I'm already setup with a hard water redirect to my outside bibs and my irrigation. I also have a hardwater bypass that I assume goes to the kitchen.

[Darell_n]

Toilets don’t need soft water either and are probably the biggest waste of soft water. Mine recycles maybe once a month with a family of 4, uses around 2 bags per year only.

[prae]

Toilets don’t need soft water either and are probably the biggest waste of soft water. Mine recycles maybe once a month with a family of 4, uses around 2 bags per year only.

Why would you plumb any cold supply with soft water? The softener just needs to be upstream of the HWT. It's really just the dishwasher and water heater that benefit from softened water, imo. Given that they're both somewhat throw-away appliances with a 10-20 year expected lifespan, I really don't see the point in softening water at the whole-home scale.

[ExtraSlow]

People talk about benefits for laundry and bathing.

[Buster]

Why would you plumb any cold supply with soft water? The softener just needs to be upstream of the HWT. It's really just the dishwasher and water heater that benefit from softened water, imo. Given that they're both somewhat throw-away appliances with a 10-20 year expected lifespan, I really don't see the point in softening water at the whole-home scale.

My kitchen water boiler and espresso machine get pretty good scaling.

- - - Updated - - -

We run a lot of cold cycles in our laundry.

[prae]

Risinger's got a video out on his fancy expensive system

ZEaRFcB1vm8