Pheoxs' Garage/Workshop Build thread

[pheoxs]

Figure we had enough garage threads so why not another. Replacing my single with a oversized double this summer and appreciate any feedback Beyond has to offer.

Current plan:
22 feet wide x 32 feet deep
10" pony walls + 8 foot framed walls
18x8 door (with low clearance rails to fit in the 10" clearance)
6/12 roof with 22 feet of attic/storage trusses and 10 feet of scissor trusses. Puts me one inch under the city 15' limit
Upgrading to 200A service and move the meter to the garage and then run the existing 100A house as a sub panel
Radian heating /w tankless heater (boiler?)
Some kind of HRV as I'll be spending 8+ hour days out there.

Could use some advice:

HVAC:
HRV - Size wise I'm not sure what to plan for? I see various calculations for air changes per hour. I won't be doing much dusty work more of a office / out there tinkering type use.
Radiant heating - I've seen mixed suggestions between a tankless boiler vs water heater. I do want a minimum waste of space so rather not a tank- water heater.

Electrical:
Is there a spot I can look up what sizing everything needs to be? The mast for the overhead line, the conduit size, how far to bury, etc. Someone recommended a book 'Electric code simplified', has anyone used that?
For moving the meter, anyone know a ballpark and is that through Enmax or can certain electricians perform the work? Trying to gauge how far out I need to book that

Concrete:
Is it worth paying for a nicer finish or color the pad? I've heard mixed answers between leave it and epoxy it separately or just have them tint it and just seal it yourself.
How long is reasonable for the pad to cure? I've seen 28 days to park on it but as little as a week to start building on it? Is there a general timeframe?

Plan is to have a 10 foot shop in the front and 22 feet for garage space. May or may not frame in a partial wall between the two. Possibly just on one side for more wall space.
https://i.imgur.com/2z3c4pR.png

[ThePenIsMightier]

Awesome! My thoughts are:

1. Consider heating the slab and then you won't likely need any other heat.

2. Don't do any fancy concrete bullshit but definitely epoxy it, after.

3. Make the fuck sure that they chair the the rebar.

4. If you aren't doing a winter pour, you can build after about 7 days, in my opinion. I'd also say you can park on it, too if you don't have a 1-ton or whatever. If your schedule can take it, make an effort to wait 28 days but anecdotally, we once backed a loaded concrete truck onto a half driveway in order to complete the other half about a week later and it didn't break (while we were there). This was DuraMix.

5. Do #3.

6. Use DuraMix.

7. Do #3.

[jwslam]

If you're using it as office, have you considered doing a full upper suite so there's comforts of a small kitchen / bathroom?

obviously permitting and costs are major restrictions

[pheoxs]

Awesome! My thoughts are:

1. Consider heating the slab and then you won't likely need any other heat.

2. Don't do any fancy concrete bullshit but definitely epoxy it, after.

3. Make the fuck sure that they chair the the rebar.

4. If you aren't doing a winter pour, you can build after about 7 days, in my opinion. I'd also say you can park on it, too if you don't have a 1-ton or whatever. If your schedule can take it, make an effort to wait 28 days but anecdotally, we once backed a loaded concrete truck onto a half driveway in order to complete the other half about a week later and it didn't break (while we were there). This was DuraMix.

5. Do #3.

6. Use DuraMix.

7. Do #3.

Thanks! Yeah the plan is to insulate the slab and to infloor water/glycol for heat. Otherwise just the HRV for air circulation. Aiming to plan it all now to build in the summer as I have to empty my current garage and demo the single.

I'll look into Duramix, assuming thats just a higher density concrete?


If you're using it as office, have you considered doing a full upper suite so there's comforts of a small kitchen / bathroom?

obviously permitting and costs are major restrictions

Yeah time / development plan / cost are the barriers to that. There are suites in my neighbourhood so it's possible (though the power lines are on my side of the alley so not sure how that affects things). From what I gathered the cost of doing a foundation to support a second level as well as running sewer out back well over doubles the project cost. Just doesn't seem worth it to do at this point in time and I'd rather not wait a few years to save for it.

[Buster]

eeeeexcellent.

[ThePenIsMightier]

Thanks! Yeah the plan is to insulate the slab and to infloor water/glycol for heat. Otherwise just the HRV for air circulation. Aiming to plan it all now to build in the summer as I have to empty my current garage and demo the single.

I'll look into Duramix, assuming thats just a higher density concrete?


DuraMix or whatever equivalent is a more expensive but radically stronger concrete.

You don't really "need" an HRV but you will definitely need something to reduce the humidity and an HRV will do that, but only in winter (which is likely the only time you'll need to reduce humidity...)

Oh and put a fucking ceiling fan in, fuck!

[pheoxs]

DuraMix or whatever equivalent is a more expensive but radically stronger concrete.

You don't really "need" an HRV but you will definitely need something to reduce the humidity and an HRV will do that, but only in winter (which is likely the only time you'll need to reduce humidity...)

Oh and put a fucking ceiling fan in, fuck!

Good to know, I'll keep an eye out for concrete options.

Without a HRV I'd have 0 fresh air would I not? It'd get pretty stale air in there if I spend a few days there's without opening the big door, no?

[ThePenIsMightier]

Good to know, I'll keep an eye out for concrete options.

Without a HRV I'd have 0 fresh air would I not? It'd get pretty stale air in there if I spend a few days there's without opening the big door, no?

Meh... It's a huge airspace with only one person in it, so it's not like your farts are gonna hang around for days, plus I'm assuming it's still a garage with a vehicle coming in/out daily so you've got a shit pile of air exchange, there...
I'm not saying "don't" because it's probably going to do a great job of curbing humidity as the snow melts off your vehicle. I'm just not sure if it's the best solution overall, but I'm not sure what the best solution is.

[Buster]

it's not like your farts are gonna hang around for days, .

Try me.

[ExtraSlow]

any window make it an awning style window.

[arcticcat522]

Love garage builds....some things I did and missed:
- put receptacle around knee height. Except for work bench ones
- have 1 receptacle on the same cct as your lights. Put it somewhere for a radio or something
- think of how you will access the storage truss area. I should have put my HRV on the opposite side and used an attic access ladder that folds up in to the truss spacing
- concrete guys suck! Put it in righting to chair the re bar.
- I would have added more slope to help water drain toelwards the drain. Most of the water pools and runs sideways before heading towards the dor drain. God, I'm bitter about that...don't want water running under your work bench
- light switch in the house for outside lights on the garage
- soffit plug on a switch somewhere out of the way in the garage or house
- plug in the trusses for a security camera.
- wire for future car charger
- lights and a plug in the storage truss area
- bury the electric cable 18 inches minimum between house and main panel, use 2" PVC and pull the cable through
- put the pipe in prior to concrete and have it coming up in the stub wall to recess the panel into the wall.
- add a pipe from the panel to outside for future if required.
- I talked to the guy at the wholesaler about the HRV. He more or less confirmed what I thought from my Google fu.
- have atleast 1 window that can open for a portable ac unit....or duct a vent for one into the HRV exhaust
- contractor will move the meter. Not enmax

Sorry for rambling.

[ExtraSlow]

Sloping towards the middle and then towards a line drain across the door. Fuck I hate water running to the side walls.

[jwslam]

Love garage builds....some things I did and missed:
- light switch in the house for outside lights on the garage
Wifi that shit!
Speaking of which, you should run ethernet out there to add an access point.

[pheoxs]

Love garage builds....some things I did and missed:
- put receptacle around knee height. Except for work bench ones
- have 1 receptacle on the same cct as your lights. Put it somewhere for a radio or something
- think of how you will access the storage truss area. I should have put my HRV on the opposite side and used an attic access ladder that folds up in to the truss spacing
- concrete guys suck! Put it in righting to chair the re bar.
- I would have added more slope to help water drain toelwards the drain. Most of the water pools and runs sideways before heading towards the dor drain. God, I'm bitter about that...don't want water running under your work bench
- light switch in the house for outside lights on the garage
- soffit plug on a switch somewhere out of the way in the garage or house
- plug in the trusses for a security camera.
- wire for future car charger
- lights and a plug in the storage truss area
- bury the electric cable 18 inches minimum between house and main panel, use 2" PVC and pull the cable through
- put the pipe in prior to concrete and have it coming up in the stub wall to recess the panel into the wall.
- add a pipe from the panel to outside for future if required.
- I talked to the guy at the wholesaler about the HRV. He more or less confirmed what I thought from my Google fu.
- have atleast 1 window that can open for a portable ac unit....or duct a vent for one into the HRV exhaust
- contractor will move the meter. Not enmax

Sorry for rambling.

I appreciate the list, no worries on rambling.

I think the electrical I'll decide once it's all built. Easier to decide where to put outlets when I can start visualizing where everything will go. The attic access is something I do have to figure out as well, both the ladder as well as how to use it. It ends up being 8 feet wide and 3-4 feet tall so not exactly cozy to go in.

For drainage I've never had issues with water, we just built a mat with some 1" wood dowels as a frame and wrapped in a membrane so all the water just stays under the car regardless of slope. But presumably the concrete company will slope things proper.

Recessing the panel is a good idea, I'll have to sort out the trench pretty early on but would be nice to tuck it all away.


Wifi that shit!
Speaking of which, you should run ethernet out there to add an access point.

For sure, from what I understand I need to drop 2 separate PVC in the ground to keep electrical and non-electrical separate for some dumb reason.

[arcticcat522]

Wifi that shit!
Speaking of which, you should run ethernet out there to add an access point.

Lutron Pico. I did that. Have a pipe as a back up though

[ExtraSlow]

Anywhere you can run 1 network cable, run 2.

[BerserkerCatSplat]

Anywhere you can run 1 network cable, run 2.

This. Direct-burial CAT cable is cheap and stick it in conduit as well for future-proofing.

[arcticcat522]

I used the excavation for the concrete forms for my wires back to the house. Just clean it up and slap some pipe in. If you are co.ming up in the stub wall, it kinda needs to be done after cribbing, before concrete pour. Be sure you wet and compact very well if you dig after they do their base prep...
Power and communication need to be separate duct. Not sure how anal Telus and Shaw are about using the same duct, but that could be an issue. Add a spare duct if you can just incase. Tell the electrical company not to use 4/0 for your 200a service. I think they need 250kcmil.

[pheoxs]

This. Direct-burial CAT cable is cheap and stick it in conduit as well for future-proofing.

Any reason to run that over regular cat 6 if its in a conduit? Or just one of those it's only a couple bucks more so why not situations?


I used the excavation for the concrete forms for my wires back to the house. Just clean it up and slap some pipe in. If you are co.ming up in the stub wall, it kinda needs to be done after cribbing, before concrete pour. Be sure you wet and compact very well if you dig after they do their base prep...
Power and communication need to be separate duct. Not sure how anal Telus and Shaw are about using the same duct, but that could be an issue. Add a spare duct if you can just incase. Tell the electrical company not to use 4/0 for your 200a service. I think they need 250kcmil.

I am going to have to figure out the trench relatively soon. My deck spans ~45 feet across the yard so I'd either need to tench my natural gas in the middle of the yard or pull parts of the deck up and dig to go under. Not really excited about either option.

103932

[e31]

You don't want to run your copper data lines in your electrical conduit. HOWEVER, you can run single mode fiber with your electrical; you just need a media converter/capable switch at both ends. Transient & lightning suppression may have been a factor in my last build.

[BerserkerCatSplat]

Any reason to run that over regular cat 6 if its in a conduit? Or just one of those it's only a couple bucks more so why not situations?


For the same reason you can't (by code) run NMD90 in buried conduit - even cemented PVC conduit isn't considered watertight. For the minor cost increase it's worth using the right stuff - I think my pair of 100ft cables were a total of $80.

I put my ethernet conduit in the same trench as the gas line.

[arcticcat522]

The power and communication can go in the same trench. Just not the same conduit. If the duct has 4 inches of separation, between power/comm, that's better than 99% of residential installs out there. Guaranteed.

[pheoxs]

For the same reason you can't (by code) run NMD90 in buried conduit - even cemented PVC conduit isn't considered watertight. For the minor cost increase it's worth using the right stuff - I think my pair of 100ft cables were a total of $80.

I put my ethernet conduit in the same trench as the gas line.

Good to know, thanks!

[pheoxs]

So a few updates:

- Star building quoted me 13.5k for the building package which is high but seems reasonable for the current supply chain issues. I called a few places pricing out stuff like the garage door, man door, windows, etc and all the pricing seems consistent unfortunately.
- Impact Concrete got back to me and quoted 24k (!) for the garage pad, which isn't happening. Rolling mix took my info, called me to ask a few questions then hasn't got back to me yet.

I did have a question about insulation, for the scissor trusses it seems the easiest way is to pay someone to spray foam the ceiling but from what I've read if I go that route I -don't- want any ventilation in that portion of the roof correct? If that's the case then would it just be spray foam the inside of the sheathing, then throw up drywall on the bottom of the trusses. Do I need some kind of attic hatch on that side still incase of leaks or what not?

Adding to that I guess, if there is no roof vents that means I use non-vented soffit as well correct?

Edit: Or I think I'm misunderstanding and should use vented soffit, some vent baffles along the length of the roof to the top and then still have vents at the top? I keep finding different info but not all of it applies to our cold climate

[cyra1ax]

Just here to plug Infinite Cables for your bulk ethernet needs. +1 for direct burial inside conduit, threw mine in the gas trench as well.

[ThePenIsMightier]

So a few updates:

- Star building quoted me 13.5k for the building package which is high but seems reasonable for the current supply chain issues. I called a few places pricing out stuff like the garage door, man door, windows, etc and all the pricing seems consistent unfortunately.
- Impact Concrete got back to me and quoted 24k (!) for the garage pad, which isn't happening. Rolling mix took my info, called me to ask a few questions then hasn't got back to me yet.

I did have a question about insulation, for the scissor trusses it seems the easiest way is to pay someone to spray foam the ceiling but from what I've read if I go that route I -don't- want any ventilation in that portion of the roof correct? If that's the case then would it just be spray foam the inside of the sheathing, then throw up drywall on the bottom of the trusses. Do I need some kind of attic hatch on that side still incase of leaks or what not?

Adding to that I guess, if there is no roof vents that means I use non-vented soffit as well correct?

Edit: Or I think I'm misunderstanding and should use vented soffit, some vent baffles along the length of the roof to the top and then still have vents at the top? I keep finding different info but not all of it applies to our cold climate

Here's my 2¢ but maybe 1.5¢ because I start to get confused with spray foaming ceilings or roofs...

If you're spraying foam on the bottom of the roof sheathing, that means you are extending the "living space" envelope all the way to that surface. That means you want that area to be ~as warm as the area you normally occupy. So, that tells me zero roof vents and to not use ventilated soffits. Sounds rational, right? I'm happy to be proven wrong by someone more experienced in this.
In a house, you are required to put drywall over spray foam to provide a small fire barrier as it is flammable like gasoline. Barring that, you have to use this other blown-on shit (such as in rim joist cavities) to "protect" from fire. There is a tiny chance that you would not be required to do this in a garage... I don't know if the code varies for a space where people don't sleep. But you still should because it's crazy-flammable.
Note that it's about $4/sq-ft so do some mArTh now and realize how incredibly expensive this will be, plus your Op-Costs go up (somewhat) because you're heating WAY more airspace.

Now, let's tackle spray foam on the attic side of the ceiling. Is what's in my skull bucket coming out onto these words? Your garage has a ceiling with an attic hatch in it and on the other side of that ceiling/drywall (on the "attic side") is spray foam. This strategy indicates you want the occupied space to be warm and you don't give a shit about the attic, so you need it to be as close to the outside temp as possible by having roof vents and ventilated soffit. Sound rational? Again - someone else chime in if I'm talking crazy. This will be WAY cheaper as the sq-ft to spray foam will be some pythagorean-ratio of way-the-fuck-less. Plus, you MIGHT not have to put fire barrier on it and you're not wasting energy heating your attic.


Hope this helps.

[arcticcat522]

So a few updates:

- Star building quoted me 13.5k for the building package which is high but seems reasonable for the current supply chain issues. I called a few places pricing out stuff like the garage door, man door, windows, etc and all the pricing seems consistent unfortunately.
- Impact Concrete got back to me and quoted 24k (!) for the garage pad, which isn't happening. Rolling mix took my info, called me to ask a few questions then hasn't got back to me yet.

I did have a question about insulation, for the scissor trusses it seems the easiest way is to pay someone to spray foam the ceiling but from what I've read if I go that route I -don't- want any ventilation in that portion of the roof correct? If that's the case then would it just be spray foam the inside of the sheathing, then throw up drywall on the bottom of the trusses. Do I need some kind of attic hatch on that side still incase of leaks or what not?

Adding to that I guess, if there is no roof vents that means I use non-vented soffit as well correct?

Edit: Or I think I'm misunderstanding and should use vented soffit, some vent baffles along the length of the roof to the top and then still have vents at the top? I keep finding different info but not all of it applies to our cold climate

I spray foamed the roof where the scissor trusses are because I didn't really know how to insulate otherwise. If spray foam is what you do, directly on the roof, you don't need a vented soffit, or roof vents. It also won't matter of they are vented, the just block them and foam as normal. I have vented soffit and roof vents because I didn't know what I was planning until everything was built. No big deal, and gives you either option. If you spray foam, it needs to have a fire barrier. Paint or drywall. I think drywall needs to be 5/8 to be a fire barrier.no attic hatch would be needed because it would be conditioned space. Plus there would be hardly any space between the bottom of the scissor truss and the spray foam. You can pop by to check it out of you want. Might help to see it in person.

[pheoxs]

I spray foamed the roof where the scissor trusses are because I didn't really know how to insulate otherwise. If spray foam is what you do, directly on the roof, you don't need a vented soffit, or roof vents. It also won't matter of they are vented, the just block them and foam as normal. I have vented soffit and roof vents because I didn't know what I was planning until everything was built. No big deal, and gives you either option. If you spray foam, it needs to have a fire barrier. Paint or drywall. I think drywall needs to be 5/8 to be a fire barrier.no attic hatch would be needed because it would be conditioned space. Plus there would be hardly any space between the bottom of the scissor truss and the spray foam. You can pop by to check it out of you want. Might help to see it in person.

If you don’t mind I’ll take you up on that sometime. Do you know how much they insulated your roof? I’ve been reading if it isn’t R40 that I may run into issues of moisture in the sheathing though being there’s a membrane barrier I don’t understand how that’s a thing.

If you drywall over the bottom of the scissor trusses does that not close in the attic space a bit? The drywall being a barrier between the conditioned space and the inside of the trusses?

[rvd]

Hey check out Spray Jones vid's on youtube and reach out to them if you still have questions.

[ThePenIsMightier]

If you don’t mind I’ll take you up on that sometime. Do you know how much they insulated your roof? I’ve been reading if it isn’t R40 that I may run into issues of moisture in the sheathing though being there’s a membrane barrier I don’t understand how that’s a thing.


That's not moisture from the outside. It's another version of "attic rain". The warm moist air from the living space will condense on a cold surface and since the exterior of the roof could be -35°C then it will take a great deal of insulation to keep the living space side above the dew point of the house air. I'm not sure that the magic # is R40, but it's going to be a big number.
Over the thickness of only 4.5" or 6" you've got -35°C on one side and +20°C on the other. So that's a 55° delta which is asking a lot. Again, I bet that just made it $7/sq-ft instead of "only" $4.
It's so awesome... But $$$...$$$$

[arcticcat522]

If you don’t mind I’ll take you up on that sometime. Do you know how much they insulated your roof? I’ve been reading if it isn’t R40 that I may run into issues of moisture in the sheathing though being there’s a membrane barrier I don’t understand how that’s a thing.

If you drywall over the bottom of the scissor trusses does that not close in the attic space a bit? The drywall being a barrier between the conditioned space and the inside of the trusses?

Looks like I only did 4 inches of foam. R25 ish on the roof. I suppose you could get some moisture trapped between the drywall and spray foam? That's why I just painted the foam. Both above and below are within the conditioned envelope?? I'm not sure.

[arcticcat522]

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