General Contractor....

[eblend]

Hi all,

So as some of you may know, I am building my own house shortly and ran into a bit of an issue. I am having a hard time securing Course of Construction insurance because I don't have 2+ years of official experience in the construction field. I have built my own garage, multiple basements, including all wiring, plumbing ect ect, always passed every inspection...but none of that seems to matter.

Now, I am not building my home entirely from scratch. I am building essentially a post-frame home, which essentially sits on screw piles, all the exterior walls are built, the roof is build and all exterior windows and doors installed. The house from the outside basically looks completed and locked up. All of this is being done by a builder. Once the builder is done, I get the keys to the house, and when you walk in, you have a large open space with no interior walls, and not even concrete. At this point you would start to do plumbing work, followed by a contractor to do the concrete, and then back to me to do the framing/electrical/gas/drywall and all interior finishing. HVAC and all that will also be handled by a contractor. I would say 80% of the build will be done by contractors I have lined up and I want to be my own general contractor and do my own work and manage these guys, but it seems almost impossible to get insured.

Is it possible to hire a general contractor and have them basically relegated to nothing more than a name on an insurance policy? It's my own home, I want to do my own work, I want to manage which companies come in and do the work (really the shell is the single biggest and complex thing, and it will already be done for me by the builder). I would need very little else from a general contractor. Looking for suggestions. I don't know why they even allow owner/builder to be a thing if you can't even get insurance without actually just being an owner and giving all the building tasks to someone else.

[ExtraSlow]

Are you asking how to commit insurance fraud, or am I misunderstanding you?

[eblend]

Are you asking how to commit insurance fraud, or am I misunderstanding you?

You are misunderstanding me. I am not trying to fraud anyone, it's just that insurance companies are very anal about issuing insurance if you are not a general contractor. A general contractor doesn't really do too much actual construction, they manage other trades. I'm just trying to see if it's possible to hire a general contractor but then choose to do some work yourself in the process.

[vengie]

You are misunderstanding me. I am not trying to fraud anyone, it's just that insurance companies are very anal about issuing insurance if you are not a general contractor. A general contractor doesn't really do too much actual construction, they manage other trades. I'm just trying to see if it's possible to hire a general contractor but then choose to do some work yourself in the process.

You're literally describing the definition of fraud.

"wrongful or criminal deception intended to result in financial or personal gain."

[ThePenIsMightier]

What does "Course Of Construction Insurance" allegedly cover* and how much does it cost?

*Until you have any type of claim and they find a way to deny you.

[eblend]

You're literally describing the definition of fraud.

"wrongful or criminal deception intended to result in financial or personal gain."

Okay, everyone seems to have a hard on for the fact that I am trying to fraud someone. The damn insurance company guy himself told me "you should get a general contractor, it will save you a ton on your premiums" I'm just trying to see if it's possible to hire a contractor, and then that contractor allows me to do some of the work, since the general contractor is basically a planner for other trades. I'm trying to see if I could be that other trade, that's all. I have been told some electricians hate running wire and will allow you to run the wire and install boxes, and they will come in and just do the final bits for example.

if this isn't possible that's fine, I will find another way, was just looking for options.

[vengie]

How about you go to the source and call a general contractor?

I mean I'm not an expert, but typically you get a better answer to a question by actually seeking out an expert.

[eblend]

What does "Course Of Construction Insurance" allegedly cover* and how much does it cost?

*Until you have any type of claim and they find a way to deny you.

Well I got a quote for $9700 once for 16 months of coverage for $600,000. It covers the materials and basically the house while it's being built. I have also gotten a quote for nearly half that, but it was from a broker and the underwriter was the same company that originally quoted me $9700 directly....so I don't think she took everything into consideration or something, not sure.

I reached out to the same company again today to basically get a re-quote, and now they are telling me "you should get a general contractor" and all that crap, and from the sounds of it it sounds like they don't want to insure me, but will get back to me tomorrow. At this point I don't mind paying whatever it costs, I just want to be able to get it, and it seems to be difficult to get. I posted here to see how the advice given to me by the insurance company could be possibly translated in me doing some work myself....but everyone just assumes I'm trying to scam ffs.

[eblend]

How about you go to the source and call a general contractor?

I mean I'm not an expert, but typically you get a better answer to a question by actually seeking out an expert.

I will if it gets to that point, was trying to gather some info before I call anyone to see if it's something that's possibly doable or not. Was hoping someone has some experience or ideas, or hell even recommendations for a contractor. Contractors aren't exactly the most honest and pleasant people to talk to when you have to weed them out to find a good one.

[vengie]

Is it possible to hire a general contractor and have them basically relegated to nothing more than a name on an insurance policy?


I will if it gets to that point, was trying to gather some info before I call anyone to see if it's something that's possibly doable or not. Was hoping someone has some experience or ideas, or hell even recommendations for a contractor. Contractors aren't exactly the most honest and pleasant people to talk to when you have to weed them out to find a good one.

Who cares if your chosen GC is honest or not? Given what you're trying to do and interest with them just being a name on paper you're probably better off with someone dishonest.

[eblend]

Who cares if your chosen GC is honest or not? Given what you're trying to do and interest with them just being a name on paper you're probably better off with someone dishonest.

I care. For the 50th time, I am not trying to scam anyone ffs. I was trying to understand how this may work given what my insurance company told me. General contractor subcontracts work, I wanted to know if I can be subcontracted to. I don't need some idiot just gaming the system and in the event of a fire get fucked because what I was doing was fraudulent. If that's what I wanted I would just not bother getting insurance at all. Maybe it came off wrong in the initial post when I said nothing more than a signature, it was a figure of speech. I don't know how the industry works and was trying to gather info. If this isn't possible that's fine, will find some alternative way.

[ThePenIsMightier]

Well I got a quote for $9700 once for 16 months of coverage for $600,000. It covers the materials and basically the house while it's being built. I have also gotten a quote for nearly half that, but it was from a broker and the underwriter was the same company that originally quoted me $9700 directly....so I don't think she took everything into consideration or something, not sure.

I reached out to the same company again today to basically get a re-quote, and now they are telling me "you should get a general contractor" and all that crap, and from the sounds of it it sounds like they don't want to insure me, but will get back to me tomorrow. At this point I don't mind paying whatever it costs, I just want to be able to get it, and it seems to be difficult to get. I posted here to see how the advice given to me by the insurance company could be possibly translated in me doing some work myself....but everyone just assumes I'm trying to scam ffs.

Risk is extremely low and premium is extremely high.
Fuck it. Don't get insurance. It's an unoccupied house with no possessions.

[eblend]

Risk is extremely low and premium is extremely high.
Fuck it. Don't get insurance. It's an unoccupied house with no possessions.

That is an option I could take, and will take worst case scenario, but would be nice to know that there is some protection in an event of an unforeseen event. General liability scares me more than anything else. Get sued because some contractor came out to do work on my land and tripped over himself.

[zechs]

Risk is extremely low and premium is extremely high.
Fuck it. Don't get insurance. It's an unoccupied house with no possessions.

Yep. I'll ask my father, we've GC'd ourselves over 10 houses, I don't think he ever had this type of insurance.

As for what eblend wants to do, there is nothing wrong with what he is asking. Tons of companies work under others strictly to get insurance coverage and/or other types of paperwork taken care of. A lot of GC's would be fine with you doing work, it all depends on what you hammer out. End of the day, I doubt it's cheaper than $5k though. Which leads me to...

Having said that, if someone has offered you CoC for $5k, well then just take that, I doubt it will be cheaper any other way. Commercial/industrial styles of insurance are always high on the first time/first year.

[ExtraSlow]

For the record I wasn't trying to be an asshole with my question. I legitimately misunderstood you. However, if there's any general contractor, I imagine thier cost to manage your project is significantly higher than the $10k you were quoted for the insurance. Also seems like you are a long way past the normal time to hire someone to plan and manage this project.

Also I think the insurance is a good idea. Construction fires are relatively common, and high consequence.

[eblend]

Yep. I'll ask my father, we've GC'd ourselves over 10 houses, I don't think he ever had this type of insurance.

As for what eblend wants to do, there is nothing wrong with what he is asking. Tons of companies work under others strictly to get insurance coverage and/or other types of paperwork taken care of. A lot of GC's would be fine with you doing work, it all depends on what you hammer out. End of the day, I doubt it's cheaper than $5k though. Which leads me to...

Having said that, if someone has offered you CoC for $5k, well then just take that, I doubt it will be cheaper any other way. Commercial/industrial styles of insurance are always high on the first time/first year.

Hey thanks for much for for your response, very informative. Unfortunately I don't think the 5k insurance will hold up, or even the $9700 option, my gut feeling is they will be going to 15k or so if not more..we will see what the insurance says. They ask many questions and the guy was like "...has any other company approved you for this.."..."I'm not able get info now, i will have to research this.."....so I'm a bit concerned. I feel some of the initial quotes may have no asked all the right questions...and there are many when trying to get this.

I actually reached out to my normal broker earlier and he tried to look around and was unable to find anyone who was willing to insure me, and that is why I started looking online myself a few months ago. I thought I had things locked in but then I had a nice little chat with my broker today on an unrelated matter of insuring my tractor and he talked about this project and he told me there has to be some kind of an error as this insurance is usually VERY expensive even for things like small renovations, nevermind an entire home build.


For the record I wasn't trying to be an asshole with my question. I legitimately misunderstood you. However, if there's any general contractor, I imagine thier cost to manager your project is significantly higher than the $10k you were quoted for the insurance.

Also I think the insurance is a good idea. Construction fires are relatively common, and high consequence.

All good, I didn't take your initial question as anything more than a question for clarification, just got annoyed when the very next response and more after were still insinuating that this was my intention. I tend to have trouble explaining complicated issues in writing haha.

[ExtraSlow]

I'm awesome at pissing people off in writing. It's about two thirds of my current job.

- - - Updated - - -

I also have a different take on liability and project management than some people since I've had to assess it for a few projects that I've reccomended turning down. Admittedly not same industry.

[sxtasy]

start your own company. Be diligent in recording (photos and a journal) with what happens on site.

[schurchill39]

So from everything you've written it sounds like you want to subcontract to a GC where they reduce the rate they charge you so you can manage the contractors and do your own grunt work but be covered by their insurance. All in the hopes that the rate the GC would charge you for taking on your liability would be less than securing your own insurance? Most GC's want their reputable subs to have insurance as well so I don't really see how you would be skirting the system or even saving any money at the end of the day. If they don't have subs with insurance then they are guys they know and trust. You'd still need to compensate the GC (likely significantly) for taking on your liability and I think you'd probably have a hard time finding that because frankly, why would they trust joe-homeowner with no official ticket or verifiable experience/references and put their premiums and ultimately their livelihood on the line.

I've got a small company (literally just me and my wife) and jumping through the insurance hoops was pretty nuts so what you're describing doesn't seem abnormal at all. We filled out multiple questionnaires, talked to different brokers, and even once we were sure everyone understood the nature of our business the quotes were $3k-10k.

You're 100% better off going through your own insurance. Right now it seems like you're making assumptions based off of "gut feeling" of what you think they are going to do. If you don't like the quote you got just go to another one. Spend time on the phone with the broker so they can explain to the underwriter what you will be doing. If you have to, go incorporate your own company and then insure it as opposed to getting personal insurance. I went through 3 different brokers and all of them gave me at least 1 option that was the same as the others and all were different prices.

At the end of the day you will probably be paying $8000-15000 a year no matter how you skin it so you might as well do what protects you best and just get it yourself (or your own corp). Especially if you feel there is a significant savings by essentially GC'ing the job yourself.

[eblend]

So from everything you've written it sounds like you want to subcontract to a GC where they reduce the rate they charge you so you can manage the contractors and do your own grunt work but be covered by their insurance. All in the hopes that the rate the GC would charge you for taking on your liability would be less than securing your own insurance? Most GC's want their reputable subs to have insurance as well so I don't really see how you would be skirting the system or even saving any money at the end of the day. If they don't have subs with insurance then they are guys they know and trust. You'd still need to compensate the GC (likely significantly) for taking on your liability and I think you'd probably have a hard time finding that because frankly, why would they trust joe-homeowner with no official ticket or verifiable experience/references and put their premiums and ultimately their livelihood on the line.

I've got a small company (literally just me and my wife) and jumping through the insurance hoops was pretty nuts so what you're describing doesn't seem abnormal at all. We filled out multiple questionnaires, talked to different brokers, and even once we were sure everyone understood the nature of our business the quotes were $3k-10k.

You're 100% better off going through your own insurance. Right now it seems like you're making assumptions based off of "gut feeling" of what you think they are going to do. If you don't like the quote you got just go to another one. Spend time on the phone with the broker so they can explain to the underwriter what you will be doing. If you have to, go incorporate your own company and then insure it as opposed to getting personal insurance. I went through 3 different brokers and all of them gave me at least 1 option that was the same as the others and all were different prices.

At the end of the day you will probably be paying $8000-15000 a year no matter how you skin it so you might as well do what protects you best and just get it yourself (or your own corp). Especially if you feel there is a significant savings by essentially GC'ing the job yourself.


Thanks. The issue right now is not so much trying to save money, it's trying to actually get insurance in the first place. My broker went to multiple companies and non of them accepted, which lead me to find an online company which gave me two quotes, $9700 for one and $4900 from the other (through a different broker). This was a few months back. I went to renew the quote and now they are asking me more questions and giving me the feeling that it will either be much more expensive than $9700.....or won't insure me at all. We will see what they come back with today. I am submitting for quotes from multiple insurance companies, that's my sole task for the day, so hopefully I find something. The reason I asked about General Contractor stuff is just because the insurance company was really pushing for it it seems, so wanted to get familiar with how that works.


I think these set of questions is basically what is the main determinant on getting a policy and how much it would be. The screenshot is how I answered these:

106118

[schurchill39]

Thanks. The issue right now is not so much trying to save money, it's trying to actually get insurance in the first place. My broker went to multiple companies and non of them accepted, which lead me to find an online company which gave me two quotes, $9700 for one and $4900 from the other (through a different broker). This was a few months back. I went to renew the quote and now they are asking me more questions and giving me the feeling that it will either be much more expensive than $9700.....or won't insure me at all. We will see what they come back with today. I am submitting for quotes from multiple insurance companies, that's my sole task for the day, so hopefully I find something. The reason I asked about General Contractor stuff is just because the insurance company was really pushing for it it seems, so wanted to get familiar with how that works.


I think these set of questions is basically what is the main determinant on getting a policy and how much it would be. The screenshot is how I answered these:

106118

Are you doing 100% of your own electrical and pumbling? I thought you said you would do the grunt work and bring someone in to tie up the loose ends? If not and you are planning on doing all of that then it would really be less than 80% of the build you are hiring out. As far as the question about 2 years of that type of work you've answered yes but what you've described your experience as (basements garages etc) the answer would be no as they are looking for essentially 2 years of semi continuous work (ie 440 days doing that type of work full time). If you answer yes on that and get insured then there is an incident you'd likely be denied for lying because in their eyes your experience wouldn't count towards 2 years of full time work.

These also seem like standard questions for insurance and nothing to get worked up over. They are doing their due diligence and you want to be honest. It might result in higher rates or not being insured but don't misconstrue that as not being insurable. Ask your broker if it makes a difference if the insurance is for a private citizen or a corporation and if his answer is yes then go spend the $600-1000 to get a numbered company.

Try Ryder Insurance as one of your brokers. Not sure if they do the type you're looking for but when I was looking for corporate insurance they were the most thorough and offered the best price.

[eblend]

Are you doing 100% of your own electrical and pumbling? I thought you said you would do the grunt work and bring someone in to tie up the loose ends? If not and you are planning on doing all of that then it would really be less than 80% of the build you are hiring out. As far as the question about 2 years of that type of work you've answered yes but what you've described your experience as (basements garages etc) the answer would be no as they are looking for essentially 2 years of semi continuous work (ie 440 days doing that type of work full time). If you answer yes on that and get insured then there is an incident you'd likely be denied for lying because in their eyes your experience wouldn't count towards 2 years of full time work.

These also seem like standard questions for insurance and nothing to get worked up over. They are doing their due diligence and you want to be honest. It might result in higher rates or not being insured but don't misconstrue that as not being insurable. Ask your broker if it makes a difference if the insurance is for a private citizen or a corporation and if his answer is yes then go spend the $600-1000 to get a numbered company.

Try Ryder Insurance as one of your brokers. Not sure if they do the type you're looking for but when I was looking for corporate insurance they were the most thorough and offered the best price.

Maybe I misunderstood that initial question, as the follow up questions basically ask the same thing but with more emphasis on construction industry and experience in that. In my eyes I have over 20 years of experience in doing that type of work, as I do everything myself always, but I do understand that it counts for nothing essentially as far as insurance company is concerned. It's a bummer really, since it all gets inspected anyways, so it should count for something.

I had a numbered company for my IT business a few years back, so I am aware of the process. I am holding this suggestion in my back pocket for worst case scenario. Getting the company registered isn't so bad....it's everything else that goes around it like GST accounts, T2s ect ect that I would much rather not get involved with.

Seems like Ryder does construction insurance, so I will reach out to them as well.

[pheoxs]

In my view:

You pull electrical cable and rough in and then an electrician comes to do the hookup and panel -> that means its completed by a subcontractor. They do the final termination which means completed by them.

[eblend]

So reached out to a bunch of companies today, and got some better news. Posting it here mainly for future reference for anyone who might be in the same boat.

So the insurance company that originally quoted me at $9700 a few months back (Apollo Insurance), and who I reached out to for a re-quote yesterday, upon further investigation into this and the approval from higher ups (getting this in writing), was able to use my general construction experience to switch the answers from No to Yes for these two questions:

1. Does the Owner have a minimum of two (2) years of experience in both the construction industry and in hiring and managing subcontractors?
2. Has the Owner been actively engaged in the construction industry for the last two (2) years or more?

They said that my experience in building multiple garages/basements and doing all related plumbing/electrical/siding/roofing/drywall ect was sufficient for them to be satisfied with switching the original No to a Yes on their end, and got me a quote!

Just got it in writing

"As per our conversation, I spoke with our underwriting team and they helped me clarify the requirements for you to be eligible to purchase the builder's risk quote. Previously you had answered no to the following:

Does the Owner have a minimum of two (2) years of experience in both the construction industry and in hiring and managing subcontractors?
Has the Owner been actively engaged in the construction industry for the last two (2) years or more?

Since you had clarified your construction experience for the past two years (non-professional), we found you eligible to purchase this policy. Looking forward to working with you on this!"

Final price came in even cheaper than before, at $8,734.09 for 16 months of construction with $600000 coverage and $2M liability. This is good!

I have also reached out to another broker, who an acquaintance of mine used to get his insurance policy when he was building his home, and after spending a good hour on the phone and getting as much details out of me as possible, including house plans and details on contractors, is working on quoting me as well from his trove of companies he works with. He said the fact that the main shell of the building is built by a builder should play very favorably in my situation and he will get me all the options within the next 3-4 days. With that being said, I can throw the initial general contractor question out of the window and I can proceed exactly as I have originally wanted.

I will update this thread once I get more quotes, again for future reference. This information is hard to come by, so hopefully someday it may help someone.

[suntan]

PM me when you want me to burn the place down for the insurance money.

[zechs]

PM me when you want me to burn the place down for the insurance money.

Everybody wins!

Also great to hear eblend, glad you got it figured out. Insurance always gets anxious when a person wants to do something outside the box.