Another Vehicle Dilemma Thread - Family Hauler Edition

[brucebanner]

Okay folks:

Wife drives 2014 ford edge with 16xkms and overall its been pretty reliable but we're looking to move her into a van now that we're done having kids (toddler and infant). We had a van on rental in the spring and really liked it as a family hauler.

The only thing the wife wants is awd, which limits options big time. For new(er) options, Toyota or Chrysler and the Sienna's are not available for around a year. The Pacifica is available and it's what we had for a week on rental. The plan would be to drive this thing into the ground but I'm having some hesitation about long term ownership, if you could imagine.

Used market, tough to justify a few year old Sienna for almost new price.

WWBD? Pass on the Chrysler product? Buy extended warranty and hope for the best? Call Ryan back and order a Sienna and wait a year or whatever it is? Pony up on the used market for a Sienna?

Obviously we don't NEED to make a vehicle change but.. Want to now that we've been bouncing it around for a little bit.

[ExtraSlow]

Order the sienna in either case. Like right away. It's the best awd van. Then think about it for a few weeks.

[Darell_n]

What specifically does you wife like about a minivan? I think many of the SUVs out there have available 2nd row captains chairs, if that's one of the reasons.

[brucebanner]

Been working through this for a little while now as is. I don't like to wait for things once decided, I don't want to wait a year :rofl:

We both like the idea of the van. Captain chairs, sliding doors. For the week we drove one, it was very functional we thought. I always said if we had more than 1 kid, a van made too much sense not to get one.

[AndyL]

You answered your own question...

A 2 year old chrysler minivan has almost no resale value, a 2 year old swagger wagon is barely cheaper than new.

Its a toyota you don't run it into the ground, you run it until it rusts to a point you're unwilling to drive it - and then flip to someone with lower standards. The chrysler will be on it's 20th set of front wheelbearings and a few transmissions into your ownership by then :)

[rage2]

Talk to Ryan at red deer, order sienna at various dealerships, and hope you get one in a year. If you don’t need one right away just order anyways and hope you get the lottery win quickly.

Why minivan over suv? Kids will fucking ruin the thing, and it’s cheap enough where I DGAF. I stressed daily with kids in my various family cars and suv is expensive enough where I’d care. Dog puked in the van? DGAF.

Bonus with sienna, it’s dirt cheap to run. Fucking thing has better mileage than my Miata.

[GT.....O?]

If Ford or GMC offered sliding doors in the mid-large SUV, they would have my attention.... hate the van body style, but can see the benefit of a sliding door.

[nismodrifter]

Why minivan over suv? Kids will fucking ruin the thing, and it’s cheap enough where I DGAF. I stressed daily with kids in my various family cars and suv is expensive enough where I’d care. Dog puked in the van? DGAF.
.

Damn this forum/members have changed so much lol. Never in a million years would I have expected this kind of a post from boss man :rofl: IIRC you used to have a shoes off rule for kids? Also no food rule?

[rage2]

Damn this forum/members have changed so much lol. Never in a million years would I have expected this kind of a post from boss man :rofl: IIRC you used to have a shoes off rule for kids? Also no food rule?
Still do. In my car. Minivan is the wife’s car.

I have been a little more open with no food rule in my car but only on long trips. Like driving to mohagany. :devil:

[killramos]

But have you considered a G Wagen?

[ExtraSlow]

Van is best family vehicle unless you are incredibly insecure in your self-image.

[tirebob]

Trackhawk…

End thread.

[Doozer]

In 2012 we bought an 8-month old loaded Grand Caravan with ~15K kms for a touch under $30K. The closest Sienna/Odyssey was over $40k.

We drove that GC into the ground for a decade and just got rid of it last summer. Did things break? Yes. Did I put $10K+ of repairs into it? No way. We got $5K on a trade in, probably could've done better if we'd sold privately but wife didn't want the hassle.

Honestly, Rage is right - our minivan was nearly a disposable item. Camping supplies, kid puke, crumbs, lumber, junk to the junkyard - it did everything. I didn't want something I'd be afraid to breathe on. I found that a lower cost of entry really helped me use it like it was meant to be used, and it did a good job.

[loweg]

We have a 2012 sienna Se And I can say that even without the awd, the weight makes it an absolute tank in the winter . It’s required so little in the way of maintenance over the years we have owned it. I usually just throw in a new set of blizzaks every 3 years and it is unstoppable in the snow. Might not actually need to wait for an awd .

[corsvette]

My cousin bought a Pacifica AWD in top trim. I have to admit it’s a extremely nice van. They’ve had it over a year now and haven’t had a single issue with it and they don’t regret the purchase. Out the door price was way less than the Sienna he cross shopped.

[mr2mike]

Van is best family vehicle unless you are incredibly insecure in your self-image.

You could get a lift kit for it.

[killramos]

It seems to me that most of the items in favour of a minivan would be better served by a pickup truck.

[max_boost]

We have a 2012 sienna Se And I can say that even without the awd, the weight makes it an absolute tank in the winter . It’s required so little in the way of maintenance over the years we have owned it. I usually just throw in a new set of blizzaks every 3 years and it is unstoppable in the snow. Might not actually need to wait for an awd .

Oh the memories I use to drive around in a ford windstar and that thing was just a tank
Miss the simplicity of those days
This thread makes me want to get a minivan lol

[jutes]

Yukon AT4

[ThePenIsMightier]

You answered your own question...

A 2 year old chrysler minivan has almost no resale value, a 2 year old swagger wagon is barely cheaper than new.

Its a toyota you don't run it into the ground, you run it until it rusts to a point you're unwilling to drive it - and then flip to someone with lower standards. The chrysler will be on it's 20th set of front wheelbearings and a few transmissions into your ownership by then :)

This is probably 65% accurate and still worthwhile advice.

[ExtraSlow]

I personally wouldn't cross-shop a pickup, or a body-on-frame SUV with a minivan. Or rather, not for long, very different ways to skin this particular cat.

Its my contention minivan is better for kids than either. Low floor and sliding doors are both key features.

[brucebanner]

Pacifica we had rented was nice for the trim, my hesitation is how it'll hold up as we are planning to have that long term, like 10 years kind of thing.

I know we could do without awd but it's the one thing my wife wants. I'm good with having it too, it's a plus.

We currently have a truck, I mostly drive it. Wife likes it but not as her primary.

[Gman.45]

I bought my father a Pacifica about a year after it came out, they didn't have AWD available but they did have the PHEV (where the fuck do you get plug in EV from PHEV FFS anyway), so we got him that. It only has about 40,000km on it (2018, I think), but it's been really good regarding the reliability and typical Chrysler shit breaking type deal. It had an overhead light that stopped working, and that's been it so far. The EV thing works really well, even in winter he can get about 40 km with all the heat/lights/stereo/etc running, and in summer it's over 50km. No ICE firing up, just EV, so long as he keeps it in the city, which he mostly does.

He has a mobility scooter and ramps to load it in the rear, the angle of entry was better than the Toyota or any other van for this one specific purpose, which is how we landed on the Pacifica in the first place. Plus it had a huge factory discount at the time of purchase, plus 0% for the $25,000 that was financed after down payment and factory/company discounts/etc.

Rage2's advice is probably the best, as I know he's rented the Pacifica and a couple occasions and posted about it, as well as being a Sienna owner. I think his next van will be a Sienna or maybe even the Honda, as he's had a hip replacement and can get around better now (ie no ramps/scooter loading required).

If you plan on keeping it 10 years, obviously the depreciation will be a lot more with the Pacifica, but looking online at those for sale, it hasn't been THAT bad.

[jwslam]

where the fuck do you get plug in EV from PHEV FFS anyway
Plug-in Hybrid Electric Vehicle

Interesting to see Lol-vo is joining a segment that most manufacturers backed out of, doesn't look like it'll come to Canada though
https://www.motor1.com/news/691525/2024-volvo-em90-design-revealed/

Vans are just not popular around here with everyone wanting SUVs

[jutes]

Low floor and sliding doors are both key features.

Low floor for the kids or parents?

[G-ZUS]

Are you going to be selling the edge? Might be interested in it if you are

[pheoxs]

Ford Flex since it has all the space of a minivan without sliding doors so it's not a minivan. You can also get it in AWD (for safety for the wifey) with the 3.5L Ecoboost and 365hp.

[mr2mike]

Suicide doors Ford Flex.
Basically old version of the sliding door.

[4WARNED]

Ah, the joys of a minivan. i'm not gonna lie - as a car guy, it absolutely made me sick that we sold a three row SUV (2003 Durango R/T) for a van. But we had three littles at the time (2 yr old and a pair of twins) and as somebody mentioned above, i had to view the purchase of a van just like an appliance. It was gonna get destroyed, used, consumed and disposed of eventually. But there was no comparison to the utility of that van at that stage of our lives. Sliding power doors and rear dvd. Leather seats that were easy to wipe up. We ended up with a new Kia Sedona (2007) at the time. With good winter tires, it was incredible in the snow. ( I too at the time would've loved an AWD van, but the added expense ruled it out).

Ironically, i still see our van everyday as someone down the block bought it from us and it's still going. They bought it from us as i was always cleaning it, trying to stave off the "life of a minivan" patina (interior and exterior) that most suffer.
but i'll admit the first time my kids could climb into a Jeep wrangler, and do up their own seatbelts, the van was gone.

Now i don't even let them into our trackhawk. but they are 19/16/16 now.

[rage2]

Ford Flex since it has all the space of a minivan without sliding doors so it's not a minivan. You can also get it in AWD (for safety for the wifey) with the 3.5L Ecoboost and 365hp.
116072

I liked the Flex, it was peppy. Rented it a few times. We actually looked at the Flex as well, but I can't remember why we didn't go that route.

Pacifica and Sienna both handle decent, rented both over the years. Destroys the pre Pacifica Chrysler vans, those things can only corner at 70% of the speed of a Camry. Just brutal handling with zero grip. Honestly, I'd drive the Sienna more if I could lower it but it was vetoed. It'd be pretty decent lowered, better tires, and a bump in power. Hopefully the PHEV Sienna comes out with similar output as the RAV4 Prime. Def moving to that. We also looked at the Pacifica PHEV but we passed based on lack of AWD. There's also a "potential problem" with the PHEV battery and fire risk, I don't think Chrysler has addressed the issue other than telling owners not to park it indoors. :nut:

Sienna also has a lift kit with additional lower body panels specifically designed for mobility access.

[lasimmon]

Are you going to be selling the edge? Might be interested in it if you are

I’ll be selling my 15 edge sport in the next week or 2 as an FYi. 150 ish km.

[Cagare]

Pacifica we had rented was nice for the trim, my hesitation is how it'll hold up as we are planning to have that long term, like 10 years kind of thing.

I know we could do without awd but it's the one thing my wife wants. I'm good with having it too, it's a plus.

We currently have a truck, I mostly drive it. Wife likes it but not as her primary.

We bought a brand new 2015 Dodge Grand Caravan, currently at 130k km. The issues we had was a transmission pan leak, transmission cooler hose leak and the rear AC evaporator coil went. Aside from that we are actually on the original set of brakes. The shocks need replacing but they are not leaking by any means. It's actually been a great vehicle, and our plan is to keep it until it rusts out further than we like.

Also, from a value standpoint, I got employee pricing due to friends that work at Chrysler, I got fully loaded out the door taxes in at $35k, mind you in 2015. It's still worth 10-15k 8 years later.

I full support the idea of a van, they have only recently started to jump in value due to obvious reasons but our generation is starting to get back into them, it's still not as bad as what we are seeing for similarly sized SUV pricing.

[ExtraSlow]

Ford Flex was cool, liked it a lot, but second row doors were massive and swung super wide. Opposite of van sliding doors.

[Cagare]

Ford Flex is a good solution, my sister had one. Lots of room, I just think resale could be worse than a van. If you buy used maybe that's not a problem.

[HiSpec]

[QUOTE=rage2;5149454]

Hopefully the PHEV Sienna comes out with similar output as the RAV4 Prime. /QUOTE]

Is the PHEV Sienna in Toyota's product timeline or just a rumour?

[rage2]

Rumors and hope.

[you&me]

I've had a Flex rental a few times years ago... It did the job fine and seems like a reasonable alternative to a minivan if you only need 5 seats.

On the topic of rumours, how about a Hellcat Pacifica?

[rage2]

I've had a Flex rental a few times years ago... It did the job fine and seems like a reasonable alternative to a minivan if you only need 5 seats.

On the topic of rumours, how about a Hellcat Pacifica?
I swear Flex was 6 or 7 seats? or am I on crack?

Hellcat Pacifica would be fun. But that was purely a napkin pipe dream.

[pheoxs]

I swear Flex was 6 or 7 seats? or am I on crack?

Hellcat Pacifica would be fun. But that was purely a napkin pipe dream.

Yeah it has 3rd row seating, maybe only on certain trims

[you&me]

I swear Flex was 6 or 7 seats? or am I on crack?

Hellcat Pacifica would be fun. But that was purely a napkin pipe dream.

You're probably right... It was 10+ years ago when we last rented a Flex and mostly chose it because a) we only needed the second row; b) needed to haul a bunch of baby gear and food, and; c) was cheaper than renting an SUV and it wasn't a minivan :rofl:

That said, I would run into the same issue with the Flex as I would with a minivan... Great if you need to haul a bunch of stuff OR 6 people, but not if you need to haul 6 people AND their stuff.

[pheoxs]

You're probably right... It was 10+ years ago when we last rented a Flex and mostly chose it because a) we only needed the second row; b) needed to haul a bunch of baby gear and food, and; c) was cheaper than renting an SUV and it wasn't a minivan :rofl:

That said, I would run into the same issue with the Flex as I would with a minivan... Great if you need to haul a bunch of stuff OR 6 people, but not if you need to haul 6 people AND their stuff.

Just put the kids on the roof rack

[brucebanner]

Pacifica TRX sign me up :rofl:

Hearing some positive feedback on the Dodge Chrysler is good! As I mentioned the the rental we had was decent but there is a less than seller rep for a reason.

Definitely looking at a van, this thread is just helping the do we get a Dodge product or wait a year+ for the Toyota.

I get a break on Chrysler pricing through work, it's EP + 1% or something like that.

Yes we'll be selling the Edge once we make a decision and get a van home.

[jwslam]

Why is only the Pacific a contender?
Odyssey and Carnival are not bad for stock if you're open to not-AWD and quick availability.

[Cagare]

Carnival is pretty well reviewed, it's true.

I would do some cross shopping in any case. Just don't stress on reliability is all I would say, I think most are good.

[rage2]

Rented an Odyssey with winter tires, and it was one of the more sketchier drives with a lot of oversteer moments. Did not like how it winter handled. Only thing it had going for it was the vacuum. It was also really expensive.

[SKR]

AWD van right here:

https://www.kijijiautos.ca/cars/gmc/safari/used/#vip=30525492

116081

[brucebanner]

Why is only the Pacific a contender?
Odyssey and Carnival are not bad for stock if you're open to not-AWD and quick availability.

Earlier I mentioned my wife wants awd, I'm not against having it either. So, were only looking at awd options, hence Sienna / Pacifica.

[jwslam]

Rented an Odyssey with winter tires, and it was one of the more sketchier drives with a lot of oversteer moments. Did not like how it winter handled. Only thing it had going for it was the vacuum. It was also really expensive.
Vacuum was covid-removed for supply chain something-something

[Cagare]

Earlier I mentioned my wife wants awd, I'm not against having it either. So, were only looking at awd options, hence Sienna / Pacifica.

Not saying don't go awd if you want, but I have found even the fwd dodge van has gotten through just about anything with good winters on it.

If I were buying another van today I would be going after a Pacifica plug in Hybrid. Can commute all electric and gets really nice gas mileage otherwise. You just give up the second row stow and go, which is annoying and the awd.

[Gman.45]

Carnival is pretty well reviewed, it's true.

I would do some cross shopping in any case. Just don't stress on reliability is all I would say, I think most are good.

If Kia made the Carnival in AWD, it'd be a great option IMO, especially the top model with the Bose system in it. Very nice ride in it too.


Rented an Odyssey with winter tires, and it was one of the more sketchier drives with a lot of oversteer moments. Did not like how it winter handled. Only thing it had going for it was the vacuum. It was also really expensive.

I friend of mine in the lower mainland's wife has the Odyssey with the top trim level, I drove in it a few times, no snow, and it was a really nice van, but ya, being stuck in Calgary with snow or ice for up to 1/2 the year, sketch winter traction is a no go IMO.


AWD van right here:

https://www.kijijiautos.ca/cars/gmc/safari/used/#vip=30525492

116081

That's in pretty nice shape for being almost 25 years old. If it lived a couple/few years it'd be a decent winter beater for the cost.

[brucebanner]

Pulled the trigger on a Pacifica today and even dropped it off at shaks go to guy for ppf. Family hauler will be on full time duty by the weekend.

[ExtraSlow]

Nice.

[Rocket1k78]

Pulled the trigger on a Pacifica today and even dropped it off at shaks go to guy for ppf. Family hauler will be on full time duty by the weekend.

Congrats! The Pacificas are really nice. Were finally out of the minivan phase and have a deposit on the Lexus TX(glorified grand highlander lol) with our fellow beyond Lexus rep. Hopefully we can capitalize on the Sienna madness

[brucebanner]

Congrats! The Pacificas are really nice. Were finally out of the minivan phase and have a deposit on the Lexus TX(glorified grand highlander lol) with our fellow beyond Lexus rep. Hopefully we can capitalize on the Sienna madness

Yeah, it should serve our purposes for the next decade or so I hope.

Market it starting to change, so I hope you can cash in. Others here know better than me (twin cam?) but my truck value changed like $5k in 2 ish weeks. (I've been monitoring trade value while looking at the van - various dealers and 2 private export guys). They were all pretty close with one another.

[Twin_Cam_Turbo]

Yeah, it should serve our purposes for the next decade or so I hope.

Market it starting to change, so I hope you can cash in. Others here know better than me (twin cam?) but my truck value changed like $5k in 2 ish weeks. (I've been monitoring trade value while looking at the van - various dealers and 2 private export guys). They were all pretty close with one another.

US wholesale market is mostly dropping fast, Canada usually follows US trends for normal vehicles.

[ExtraSlow]

car market crash mega-thread!

[Twin_Cam_Turbo]

car market crash mega-thread!

Hopefully if this shit keeps going for another 6+ months. I am ready to buy when the deals arrive.

[ExtraSlow]

I would take a real used vehicle market crash. Suspect it ends up being more of a flattening overall.

[you&me]

I would take a real used vehicle market crash. Suspect it ends up being more of a flattening overall.

Agree completely.

The manufacturers have various levers they can pull to control new car supply / pricing and prop up the used market... A strong used market makes for a strong new market and they know how tough the new market can be if the used market is crashing.

[Eride]

Whats the current situation with the new AWD Sienna? Impossible to find right now?

[npham]

Talk to Ryan, he'll give you an idea of what the market is like - [email protected]

[rage2]

Whats the current situation with the new AWD Sienna? Impossible to find right now?
Sienna is currently sitting at 24-36 month wait time for non base AWD trims. I think even Ryan is having problems getting them. Base and FWD seems to be under 12 month wait. XSE + Tech AWD and Limited AWD are straight up unicorns.

Friend of mine JUST got his XSE non tech AWD not through Ryan. Ordered 23 months ago.

[riander5]

Sienna is currently sitting at 24-36 month wait time for non base AWD trims. I think even Ryan is having problems getting them. Base and FWD seems to be under 12 month wait. XSE + Tech AWD and Limited AWD are straight up unicorns.

Friend of mine JUST got his XSE non tech AWD not through Ryan. Ordered 23 months ago.

Does Toyota not have the ability to ramp up? Is it not in their best interest to get this god damn wait list down?

[ExtraSlow]

You'd think the optimal would be a small, but not zero, waitlist. Must not have capacity. Lots of cars with waitlists now stretching past 12 months.

[rage2]

It’s a battery and motor capacity issue first and foremost. Which is why they’re prioritizing FWD as the AWD is simply an extra motor to the rear wheels. We don’t see it with Siennas as there’s no non hybrid version, but you see it in other lines where there are pure ICE versions such as RAV4. No wait for a gas one.

Then there’s Canada being shafted on allocations. US wait times are nowhere near as bad. If you want to see how bad it looks right now for Sienna buyers in Canada, you can read a ton of anecdotes here:

https://www.siennachat.com/threads/waiting-time-in-canada-please-share.68781/page-89

Start backwards. Looks like the latest updates have some dealers promising 4-5 years now lol. It’s not just Sienna, every Toyota hybrid has the same issue here. There are some random happy stories of dealers offering up cancelled orders that shorten the wait time, so YMMV. Lots of canceled orders because people are leaving deposits at multiple dealers. Most of the non queue jumpers seem to be taking delivery this year after ordering for 2 years.

[riander5]

Yea, understanding Toyota is playing the long game but god damn... how much $$$ are they leaving on the table over the next few years.

[rage2]

Yea, understanding Toyota is playing the long game but god damn... how much $$$ are they leaving on the table over the next few years.
None if they can’t produce them fast enough. Their long game is their future battery tech, which is supposedly around the corner. The new battery plant opens in 2 years. Hybrids are supposed to get the new batteries first because they don’t anticipate cost optimization till 2030.

[riander5]

None if they can’t produce them fast enough. Their long game is their future battery tech, which is supposedly around the corner. The new battery plant opens in 2 years. Hybrids are supposed to get the new batteries first because they don’t anticipate cost optimization till 2030.

Yea thats my point.. the longer they push these out, the more time competitors have etc.

I have a pal who got a ravenous 4 prime, he sure likes it. Not sure i'd drop 70k - 80k on one but to each their own

[pheoxs]

Canada seems to be getting shafted across the board. If you go stateside there's dealers with 20 Ioniqs on the lot and will sell them for under MSRP. In Canada it's still a year waitlist for many trims or pay 10k+ markup for a cancelled order sitting on a lot.

I wonder if it's related to the IFA and the US' tax subsidies of EVs or why they are diverting inventory so much.

[rage2]

Yea thats my point.. the longer they push these out, the more time competitors have etc.

I have a pal who got a ravenous 4 prime, he sure likes it. Not sure i'd drop 70k - 80k on one but to each their own
Toyota's focus is hybrids, while competitors are going straight to EV. Everyone (not Tesla or Chinese brands) are limited by battery. Toyota's justification is that they rather focus the battery production capacity to hybrids because they can make 4 hybrids vs 1 EV for the same amount of production capacity, while lowering the cost implication of the battery. Long term is it working? Who knows. Short term, it's clearly working because they're selling way more hybrids than competitors selling EVs (minus Tesla) and printing money again. I think Canada is just a unique situation that makes it look like they don't want to make any more of these things.

The only people that are pissed off at Toyota are the ones bitching about their EV strategy, but clearly there's a fuck ton of people that want hybrids and not vocal about it and smelling their own farts? haha

[pheoxs]

I think Toyota is doing the best strategy they can with their current situation. Making more hybrids when you don't have sufficient battery supply chain is the right call to shift more of their overall products to be partially electric.

But I do very much think they deserve blame for being in the situation they are in. They were incredibly early into the hybrid market, they really should've been the ones to lead or at least still be near the front yet they seemingly have fumbled hard in terms of ramping their supply chain. That's the real issue I do fault them with.

[rage2]

I think Toyota is doing the best strategy they can with their current situation. Making more hybrids when you don't have sufficient battery supply chain is the right call to shift more of their overall products to be partially electric.

But I do very much think they deserve blame for being in the situation they are in. They were incredibly early into the hybrid market, they really should've been the ones to lead or at least still be near the front yet they seemingly have fumbled hard in terms of ramping their supply chain. That's the real issue I do fault them with.
I think Toyota knows exactly what it's doing (minus Canada). They did not want to jump into the EV game because it wasn't profitable. If you look at every other manufacturer they're losing money on their EV strategies. Ford's on track to losing $4.5b, Mercedes earnings down 7% purely due to EV pricing even though the ICE margins are blowing away pre-covid numbers. Those 2 just off the top of my head. Toyota is selling their hybrids at competitive prices vs ICE and making money hand over fist.

In the US, you can get any Toyota hybrid if you pay ADM. The only people waiting (and it's < 1 year) are people that deal with the small # of dealerships that sell at MSRP only.

I don't have an explanation of Canada, other than we're so small we don't even get thought about and just lopped in with some other market's #'s.

[killramos]

Mods please move to the “Toyotas are sold out” subforum

[Xtrema]

Yea, understanding Toyota is playing the long game but god damn... how much $$$ are they leaving on the table over the next few years.

Who is going to steal Toyota's lunch tho. Odyssey and the Kia whatever ain't hybrid. And Pacifica ain't cheap or aplenty.

[ExtraSlow]

Where's that dude who asked about "buying cars today for money"?? Haven't heard from that dude for a while.

[brucebanner]

Picked it up this morning from shaks ppf guy(easy guy to deal with).
116680

[ExtraSlow]

This guy fucks

[Rocket1k78]

This would be a fun family hauler