APEGA - Gov't exempts Software Engineering title from APEGA oversight

[ExtraSlow]

Dear ExtraSlow,
I am writing to inform you of a significant change that will affect the engineering profession in Alberta. The Government of Alberta announced today that the title "software engineer" will be exempt and the potential for additional “related titles” could become exempt in the Engineering and Geoscience Professions (EGP) Act and General Regulation.

This means non-engineers in the technology industry will be legally allowed to call themselves software engineers. In addition, the minister for Advanced Education will have the right to add related technology-industry job titles that include “engineer” to this exemption. However, at this time, only the job title of “software engineer” is exempt.

It is important to note this change does not remove the requirement for individuals who practise engineering in the technology industry to become licensed with APEGA and for technology companies providing engineering services to obtain a Permit to Practice.

The government’s decision to remove title protection for “software engineer” stems from lobbying by the technology industry, which believes it must use “software engineer” to recruit top talent to Alberta.

We believe title protection is vital to preserving public safety and maintaining high standards of practice and ethics. APEGA engaged in multiple meetings with the Government of Alberta and the technology industry. We offered potential solutions during our discussions, such as adding “non-registered” after the title software engineer for non-engineers. The government decided to go in another direction.

It is the government’s role to create legislation, and as a regulator, it is APEGA’s role to implement legislation. We have effectively regulated engineering and geoscience in protection of the public for more than 100 years and will continue to do so.


Jay Nagendran, P.Eng., FCAE, ICD.D, FEC, FGC (Hon.)
Registrar & CEO


So software engineers better not "practice engineering" unless they are also APEGA-certified P.Eng's as well.

[suntan]

I engineer software!

At the U of C open house I found out the software ENGINEERS and the comp sci students are often in the same building.

[killramos]

lol. Software “engineers”.

I guess Sugarphreak went back to school for nothing.

[ThePenIsMightier]

I've been calling myself Dr. FeelGood for years and the medical board can suck my salty taint.
Maybe chiropractors will start calling themselves Endoskeletal Engineers.

APEGA dues going up, though (probably).

[Sugarphreak]

lol. Software “engineers”.

I guess Sugarphreak went back to school for nothing.

I knew it!

[rage2]

I don't even know who to blame for this fiasco. I was actually pretty strict in making sure I don't use the Engineer title for my developers, but since our company got acquired we had to map them over to the available titles, and turns out all my web devs and QA are now engineers in title too haha. Nothing I can do there. It's just a favoured title in the tech world without merit, and you limit your pool of talent because software developers like their titles with engineering in them.

I mean some of the guys on the development side of things are more architects than engineers, but architects also gatekeep that title haha. I mean not tech world's fault all the cool words are taken I guess?

I'm seeing software engineers who actually have spent time and money on an engineering degree to get the designation pissed off about it. Kinda funny. It's like immigrants not wanting more immigrants. :rofl:

[ExtraSlow]

Wonder what Curt Stout thinks.

[ThePenIsMightier]

Wonder what Curt Stout thinks.

"Something something ORWELLIAN SPEECH CONTROL something something ARGUMENTEM AD HOMINEM!!!!" and then brag about his lawyer bill that he paid to lose. Like a loser.

[Darkane]

Poor sound engineers. They been mixing and recording albums for almost a century and they’re not recognized.

[suntan]

What about sandwich artists.

[rage2]

What about sandwich artists.
difference here is nobody cares about being an artist because they're all broke ass.

[rage2]

Poor sound engineers. They been mixing and recording albums for almost a century and they’re not recognized.
they say what makes engineer a real engineer is if something they do fails, people die. I can tell you I came close to dying listening to that first release of Death Magnetic. That makes sound engineers real engineers.

[suntan]

Remember when they tried to shove themselves into STE(A)M?

- - - Updated - - -


they say what makes engineer a real engineer is if something they do fails, people die. I can tell you I came close to dying listening to that first release of Death Magnetic. That makes sound engineers real engineers.

Worse thing that happens with software is your CC gets cancelled.

[sabad66]

Lol as if their suggestion was a viable solution to the alleged problem. Hey tech industry, we know job titles are important to people so how about you meet us in the middle and make all of your workers use “software engineer, non-registered” in all of their job titles. That will totally help!

I really don’t see why this was such a big deal…did Apega actually think people were hiring SEs to stamp bridge designs? I think it’s pretty obvious that if you need someone for that, you make sure they have p. Eng designation, not just looking for any dude with the word “engineer” in their previous job titles.

[ExtraSlow]

What about sandwich artists.

I remember when THAT title used to mean something. Ended when they did away with the U-sliced bread.

[sabad66]

“Sales Engineers” right now:
116421

[killramos]

What about PowerPoint engineers?

[Darkane]

they say what makes engineer a real engineer is if something they do fails, people die. I can tell you I came close to dying listening to that first release of Death Magnetic. That makes sound engineers real engineers.

Hahah. Better than St Anger though!

[Disoblige]

Can anyone really call themselves a sales engineer with a straight face?

[ThePenIsMightier]

Can anyone really call themselves a sales engineer with a straight face?

If APEGA accepts their dues. And I think we know that's a certainty. PE's and PM's aren't spending many hours cranking out calculus and differential equations either.

[ExtraSlow]

I won't allow the word Engineer to be on my business card, although if the boss insists, I will allow them to write P.Eng.

[schurchill39]

I'm super pumped that the self regulating body that I pay an obsurd amount of money to every year whose main purpose is to gate keep the stupid title and professional standards was unable to gate keep the stupid title and professional standards. Thanks apega

[ExtraSlow]

They cannot write legislation, they merely follow it. Government caved to tech companies and changed the legislation.

[ThePenIsMightier]

But APEGA did a piss-poor job of fighting this. I bet they spent more effort squashing Curt Stout.

[msommers]

I saw this in my inbox yesterday, straight to the trash. Along with all APEGA mail.

[LilDrunkenSmurf]

I wonder how long until Site Reliability Engineer, and Devops Engineer are included in that.

[killramos]

But APEGA did a piss-poor job of fighting this. I bet they spent more effort squashing Curt Stout.

What were they supposed to do?

Smith is hilariously easily influenced and TECHJOBS is a huge buzz word right now

[dirtsniffer]

If this holding up jobs coming here I give zero fucks about the use. Actually I give zero fucks regardless.

[ThePenIsMightier]

What were they supposed to do?

Smith is hilariously easily influenced and TECHJOBS is a huge buzz word right now

More than they did, as sabad said below. It likely would not have changed the outcome, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't have put more effort in.


Lol as if their suggestion was a viable solution to the alleged problem. Hey tech industry, we know job titles are important to people so how about you meet us in the middle and make all of your workers use “software engineer, non-registered” in all of their job titles. That will totally help!...

[g-m]

I thought they did put in a lot of effort over a few years too

[suntan]

I wouldn't sweat it. Tech companies understand there is a difference between SOFTWARE ENGINEER and REALTOR and some schmo that has a position of software engineer.

A lot of IT workers push back on things like this because heaven forbid programmers actually be legally accountable for their work.

[Pacman]

Remember when they tried to shove themselves into STE(A)M?

- - - Updated - - -



Worse thing that happens with software is your CC gets cancelled.

or some EV on autopilot smashes through a crowd of people.

[suntan]

or some EV on autopilot smashes through a crowd of people.

NO WARRANTY EXPRESSED OR IMPLIED motherfucker!

[Sugarphreak]

AI Prompt Engineer.... 335K/yr salary incoming

https://time.com/6272103/ai-prompt-engineer-job/

APEGA going to lose their mind

[msommers]

APEGA will send them a sternly-worded message on LinkedIn Premium.

[KrisYYC]

How about Domestic Engineers? Sandwich artist is just a small part of their overall skills and duties.

[ExtraSlow]

Engineers Canada has come out with a strongly worded letter.
https://engineerscanada.ca/news-and-events/news/canadas-engineering-regulators-united-in-opposition-to-albertas-bill-7

“While we support the growth of Alberta’s technology sector, we firmly believe that allowing the use of the term ‘engineer’ by unlicensed individuals undermines the public trust and compromises safety,” said Gerard McDonald, MBA, P.Eng., ICD.D, Chief Executive Officer of Engineers Canada.

The letter emphasizes that the title of ‘engineer’ is a protected term in Canada, meant to ensure that professionals have met rigorous standards that safeguard public interest.

As the development of software and computer technology grows exponentially, it is more important than ever that the public to be assured that those responsible for designing critical technologies, which impact public health, finance, and quality of life, can be held accountable for unskilled practices or unethical behaviour through a professional code of conduct.

“Engineering is not just a title, it’s a responsibility to the public. Across Canada, only those individuals who meet this high standard are allowed to call themselves an engineer,” says McDonald. “This is a national issue, and this decision sets Alberta apart from the standard practices observed in other Canadian provinces and territories.”

I suspect DS won't care at all.

[rage2]

Relying on a title to tell if someone is legit or not is stupid. People and companies make up titles all the time. Titles evolve over time. Take some responsibility and look at their credentials instead of gatekeeping a title. Nobody believes dr Phil is a real doctor. Nobody believes all those VPs littering every organization are really VPs. I’m not hiring a software engineer to build a bridge lol.

I’m part of the problem. I’m also a VP haha.

[ExtraSlow]

Apega is going to have some big problems in the coming years with this issue far beyond software.

[g-m]

why is that?

[rage2]

I like how Gerard McDonald is a title whore.

“Gerard McDonald, MBA, P.Eng., ICD.D, Chief Executive Officer of Engineers Canada.”

Surprised he didn’t throw in his pronouns too.

[ExtraSlow]

MBA and ICD.D. Both crack me up. It's a useful designation, and worth putting on a resume, but to have it behind your name seems silly.

[bjstare]

I like how Gerard McDonald is a title whore.

“Gerard McDonald, MBA, P.Eng., ICD.D, Chief Executive Officer of Engineers Canada.”

Surprised he didn’t throw in his pronouns too.

Ya that’s what I was thinking. He’s definitely the type of guy to care about who uses certain words. What a twat.

[msommers]

I had APEGA call me about my LinkedIn title years ago because I wasn't a full P. enis yet.

The guy introduced himself as 'whoever' P. Eng, PhD.

I don't remember laughing at him on the phone but God I hope I did.

[sabad66]

I had APEGA call me about my LinkedIn title years ago because I wasn't a full P. enis yet.

The guy introduced himself as 'whoever' P. Eng, PhD.

I don't remember laughing at him on the phone but God I hope I did.

It’s one thing to have designations on your email signature, but cold calling someone and saying them out loud after your name?!?! Lololol

[rage2]

On one hand, they seem to be horny over the use of engineer in title, because it's supposedly "confusing". On the other hand, they seem to be horny over including every single designation in their title.

Why would it matter if someone uses the word engineer in the title when they can simply ask their members to be like them and add the P Eng designation to their title because that's preferred and clears things up? Engineer doesn't mean shit, P Eng does.

I feel like the only people that seems to be confused about someone using engineer in their title is APEGA.

[killramos]

Post nominal letter maybe mattered 20 or 30 years ago. These days everyone and their dog makes up some new ones anyway so
The point has been lost.

It mattered when it was a short list that was accepted. It no longer matters at all.

[ThePenIsMightier]

On one hand, they seem to be horny over the use of engineer in title, because it's supposedly "confusing". On the other hand, they seem to be horny over including every single designation in their title.

Why would it matter if someone uses the word engineer in the title when they can simply ask their members to be like them and add the P Eng designation to their title because that's preferred and clears things up? Engineer doesn't mean shit, P Eng does.

I feel like the only people that seems to be confused about someone using engineer in their title is APEGA.

I think the bigger issue is that the reason professional associations exist is that both the govt and the people realize that neither are qualified to properly regulate these groups of nerds whether they are Accountants, Lawyers, Physicians, Engineers, etc.
So, the govt (representing the people) agreed to draft legislation that says "these nerds can look after themselves unless they start really fucking things up".

And now the govt (still as unqualified as ever) is interfering with that legislation over something stupid. Not because some hydrocrackers exploded or bridges collapsed. No. They're responding to the pressure of a special interest group.

And as we all lie down and let them do this, we set dangerous a precedent that says "we are fine with the govt interfering with professional associations even though the main reason the legislation exists is to keep the govt the fuck away because they are unqualified and subject to the whims of politics rather than the profession."

Everyone is free to agree or disagree with the last part of that statement, but the part that matters is at the front.
"We are fine with the govt interfering with _______" is a bad thing to say only 99% of the time.

[suntan]

I wish software engineer meant something. Most software is miserably designed and written.

The main problem is that actually requiring IT people to give a shit means that wages would rise, esp. in Canada, and no one wants that.

[msommers]

Not when there's an Indian that will work for 1/5 the price!

Either the customer actually had no idea what they want and software developers make an insane amount of versions, but "none of them feel right" or the actual software is so bug ridden it's hot garbage and barely functions.

[eblend]

I had APEGA call me about my LinkedIn title years ago because I wasn't a full P. enis yet.

The guy introduced himself as 'whoever' P. Eng, PhD.

I don't remember laughing at him on the phone but God I hope I did.

Lucky you, I have been a Senior Engineer for nearly 4 years now, and not a peep from them. I am definately not an Engineer, but that's the title my company gave me during my last promotion, so that's what shows in my signature. I deal with Engineers all the time from various IT businesses, and I highly doubt any of them are actual Engineers, much like myself. It's just a common title given to even basic people in support roles. Perhaps because we deal with US companies most often this isn't strange at all for us, we got used to it. When I saw this article I actually laughed. When I got this title 4 years ago I told my actual P.Engg buddy that I got an Engineer title, he was NOT amused, and sounded like the APEGA dude in his reasoning. Some people get so butt hurt over stupid titles. My favorite is President and CEO....of your own little 1 person incorporated business...I was that for a while....I never ever used that title, it's so lame. Sometimes I think people incorporate just so they can flex on LinkedIn.

[suntan]

Can you make old people live less longer? Thanks.

[ExtraSlow]

Can you make old people live less longer? Thanks.

Subscribed

[Tik-Tok]

Mandatory soilent green at 80yo.

[msommers]

End of the day, if stuff needs to be stamped you need to have your regulator's seal, member # and full name as part of it. Your job title, hilariously, doesn't fucking mean anything on the doc.

[max_boost]

Lucky you, I have been a Senior Engineer for nearly 4 years now, and not a peep from them. I am definately not an Engineer, but that's the title my company gave me during my last promotion, so that's what shows in my signature. I deal with Engineers all the time from various IT businesses, and I highly doubt any of them are actual Engineers, much like myself. It's just a common title given to even basic people in support roles. Perhaps because we deal with US companies most often this isn't strange at all for us, we got used to it. When I saw this article I actually laughed. When I got this title 4 years ago I told my actual P.Engg buddy that I got an Engineer title, he was NOT amused, and sounded like the APEGA dude in his reasoning. Some people get so butt hurt over stupid titles. My favorite is President and CEO....of your own little 1 person incorporated business...I was that for a while....I never ever used that title, it's so lame. Sometimes I think people incorporate just so they can flex on LinkedIn.

so it's basically
okay you an engineer
but are you a P.Engg tho ... is the q lol
personally, i like founder or entrepreneur lol

[schurchill39]

We should have a MEGA POLL

A) I'm an Engineer and care about the title being protected
B) I'm an Engineer and I don't give a fuck about the title being protected
C) I'm not an Engineer and I think the term should only be used for P.Eng's
D) I'm not an Engineer and I don't give a fuck about titles.

I personally think any professional title should be protected be it Engineer or any of the other self regulated industries. I'd vote A.

I think the Engineers Canada comment was interesting because they are right in the sense that the legislation opens the door for exemptions in other industries like Doctor, Lawyer, Accountant etc. I vote conservative but to me this is just another example of Danielle Smith being fucking looney. I can't stand her.

[rage2]

We should have a MEGA POLL

A) I'm an Engineer and care about the title being protected
B) I'm an Engineer and I don't give a fuck about the title being protected
C) I'm not an Engineer and I think the term should only be used for P.Eng's
D) I'm not an Engineer and I don't give a fuck about titles.

I personally think any professional title should be protected be it Engineer or any of the other self regulated industries. I'd vote A.

I think the Engineers Canada comment was interesting because they are right in the sense that the legislation opens the door for exemptions in other industries like Doctor, Lawyer, Accountant etc. I vote conservative but to me this is just another example of Danielle Smith being fucking looney. I can't stand her.
I think DS is a bit looney, but that said, in almost all parts of the world, Professional engineer is the protected title. Engineer can be used almost everywhere. Job title? No problems. You just can't call yourself an engineering firm without having P Eng's, I think that's the only context where it's protected. So Canada's continual attempt at protection of the engineer title disconnects us with the rest of the world, which is why if we want tech industry to be competitive and grow, we have to stop gatekeeping dumb ass shit and follow everywhere else.

As for other titles, doctor isn't fully protected either. killramos will like this but chiropractors and accupuncutists are allowed to use the Dr. title.

[max_boost]

Dr. Jill Biden
Dr. Phil
:werd:
None as legit as dr. Dre

[ThePenIsMightier]

....

As for other titles, doctor isn't fully protected either. killramos will like this but chiropractors and accupuncutists are allowed to use the Dr. title.

Which everyone can see waters down the title, and that only benefits those who don't legitimately have the title.
Physicians will never get full control of that title because apparently they actually hijacked it from academia (professors, Ph.D). It gets picked away at until it's degraded.

I'm still correct that fundamentally, the gov't is supposed to stay out of these affairs unless there are horrible issues and this was never a catastrophe worthy of gov't interference.

[rage2]

I'm still correct that fundamentally, the gov't is supposed to stay out of these affairs unless there are horrible issues and this was never a catastrophe worthy of gov't interference.
Who gave APEGA the right to gatekeep the engineer title to begin with? Laws made by the government? Wouldn't this just be eliminating government interference?

[ThePenIsMightier]

Who gave APEGA the right to gatekeep the engineer title to begin with? Laws made by the government? Wouldn't this just be eliminating government interference?

The government.
Oh no! You got me? Except see post-48.

[rage2]

The government.
Oh no! You got me? Except see post-48.
Yea, and the associations fucked up by gatekeeping what's essentially a broad title everywhere in the world except for Canada because they can't let go.

Like I said, protect P Eng like everywhere else in the world and move on. It's almost as silly as Red Sox trying to trademark "Boston" earlier this year.

[dirtsniffer]

Am engineer. But like a ppt.eng. don't care to protect the term but it would be sweet if they had to pay fees so I could pay less. Seriously, what does apega do with all our money.

[ThePenIsMightier]

Yea, and the associations fucked up by gatekeeping what's essentially a broad title everywhere in the world except for Canada because they can't let go.

Like I said, protect P Eng like everywhere else in the world and move on. It's almost as silly as Red Sox trying to trademark "Boston" earlier this year.

Gatekeeping a title is not "fucking up". It's literally an integral part of maintaining the value of the profession in the eyes of the public. Protecting and preserving the language leads to protecting and preserving the culture. For cultural examples, look at how cranky French Canadians are about protecting their language and look at how fucked Indians are that have essentially lost their language.
For technical examples, look at CCIM Realtors, Chiropractors who get a Ph.D so they call call themselves doctors, or fake engineers who get an M.Eng, PMP.
The title "Doctor" is worth its weight in gold and it needs to be vehemently protected. And even though it is vehemently protected, there is a constant barrage of thieves using that title. This unauthorized use erodes the confidence of the unwashed masses, which leads them to thinking:

https://youtu.be/oCIo4MCO-_U?si=nQEBkwyU9Dfz9nDh

Also, the title "engineer" is protected elsewhere in the world. The specific issue here is that the USA doesn't protect this particular term very well and because of that one wrong, Alberta needs to add a wrong because "two wrongs make a right" when you let an AM Radio Host do the math instead of an engineer.

Remember, half the people in society are below average intelligence - by definition. It's a bell curve. Half the people you went to High School with struggled to get C's. Struggled... Since that is a fact and society still needs to move forward, it's in everyone's best interests to leave these groups of nerds alone unless they truly start fucking things up.

So far, the API tanks collapsing during construction and killing several workers at CNRL in 2007 didn't warrant government intervention with APEGA and neither did their Coker splitting and causing a Hellfire. But bring some computer geeks to the UCP's pivot table and let's start rewriting legislation? Get the fuck out of here. This slope is very slippery.

[rage2]

Also, the title "engineer" is protected elsewhere in the world. The specific issue here is that the USA doesn't protect this particular term very well and because of that one wrong, Alberta needs to add a wrong because "two wrongs make a right" when you let an AM Radio Host do the math instead of an engineer.
Canada is the exception and not the rule. It's not just USA. Every English speaking country is the same thing. Every tom dick and harry can be an engineer in the UK, Australia, etc. All those countries protect "P Eng" because they all realize that engineer is such a broad term. Canada is the only country that deals with this stupidity ( dirtsniffer that's what you're paying for lol).


So far, the API tanks collapsing during construction and killing several workers at CNRL in 2007 didn't warrant government intervention with APEGA and neither did their Coker splitting and causing a Hellfire. But bring some computer geeks to the UCP's pivot table and let's start rewriting legislation? Get the fuck out of here. This slope is very slippery.
Yea I have no idea what you're talking about re: CNRL, shitty engineering, whatever, that's a totally different issue. This isn't a computer geek problem, there's a fuck ton of broad use of engineer across all fields in Canada, so much so that there's no way for APEGA to really enforce other than go after small groups at a time. The term engineer in Canada has been dumbed down for a long ass time. Only reason this came up is to encourage investment (with tech being the new hotness) in Alberta because APEGA loves to cherry pick and go after the new guys here and it's a PITA.

We've been under the radar (to APEGA) for 25 years with more than 1/2 our AB staff having an engineer title without a peep. Pretty much like every other tech company that's already established here.

[bjstare]

Am engineer. But like a ppt.eng. don't care to protect the term but it would be sweet if they had to pay fees so I could pay less. Seriously, what does apega do with all our money.

As far as I can tell, they use it to host a website that reminds me to summarize the work I do every year to somehow qualify my peng designation. They also spend lots of money to advertise their mandatory association, which is hilariously stupid [insert elephant sucking it's own dick picture here]

I don't remotely do anything engineer-ey anymore, but my employer pays my dues so I keep it. The day they stop paying is the day I lose my peng. Fuck APEGA.

[ExtraSlow]

116504

[ThePenIsMightier]

This meme is about to get used!

[Sugarphreak]

We should have a MEGA POLL

A) I'm an Engineer and care about the title being protected
B) I'm an Engineer and I don't give a fuck about the title being protected
C) I'm not an Engineer and I think the term should only be used for P.Eng's
D) I'm not an Engineer and I don't give a fuck about titles.

I personally think any professional title should be protected be it Engineer or any of the other self regulated industries. I'd vote A.

I think the Engineers Canada comment was interesting because they are right in the sense that the legislation opens the door for exemptions in other industries like Doctor, Lawyer, Accountant etc. I vote conservative but to me this is just another example of Danielle Smith being fucking looney. I can't stand her.

Put me down for B

The less power "professional associations" have, the better

[g-m]

Gatekeeping a title is not "fucking up". It's literally an integral part of maintaining the value of the profession in the eyes of the public. Protecting and preserving the language leads to protecting and preserving the culture. For cultural examples, look at how cranky French Canadians are about protecting their language and look at how fucked Indians are that have essentially lost their language.
For technical examples, look at CCIM Realtors, Chiropractors who get a Ph.D so they call call themselves doctors, or fake engineers who get an M.Eng, PMP.
The title "Doctor" is worth its weight in gold and it needs to be vehemently protected. And even though it is vehemently protected, there is a constant barrage of thieves using that title. This unauthorized use erodes the confidence of the unwashed masses, which leads them to thinking:

https://youtu.be/oCIo4MCO-_U?si=nQEBkwyU9Dfz9nDh

Also, the title "engineer" is protected elsewhere in the world. The specific issue here is that the USA doesn't protect this particular term very well and because of that one wrong, Alberta needs to add a wrong because "two wrongs make a right" when you let an AM Radio Host do the math instead of an engineer.

Remember, half the people in society are below average intelligence - by definition. It's a bell curve. Half the people you went to High School with struggled to get C's. Struggled... Since that is a fact and society still needs to move forward, it's in everyone's best interests to leave these groups of nerds alone unless they truly start fucking things up.

So far, the API tanks collapsing during construction and killing several workers at CNRL in 2007 didn't warrant government intervention with APEGA and neither did their Coker splitting and causing a Hellfire. But bring some computer geeks to the UCP's pivot table and let's start rewriting legislation? Get the fuck out of here. This slope is very slippery.

For real there are chiros that do that? That's REALLY slimy if true.

I'm curious, if it matters so little then why are the programmers so butthurt about being called something else? If the job, pay and benefits are in line then why so much fuss about being a developer or something?

[suntan]

For real there are chiros that do that? That's REALLY slimy if true.

I'm curious, if it matters so little then why are the programmers so butthurt about being called something else? If the job, pay and benefits are in line then why so much fuss about being a developer or something?

No fucking idea.

IT people are the most self-important jackasses I've ever met. Cheap money really fucked things up. Now all these money losing IT companies are dropping like flies due to a lack of venture capital.

[ExtraSlow]

IT companies think they are tech companies.

[rage2]

For real there are chiros that do that? That's REALLY slimy if true.

I'm curious, if it matters so little then why are the programmers so butthurt about being called something else? If the job, pay and benefits are in line then why so much fuss about being a developer or something?
No because chiros don't need PhD's to use dr title. They're just allowed to, along with dentists, naturopaths, acupuncturists haha. It's definitely not worth its weight in gold, unless you didn't know that to begin with.

To be fair, at least in the case of chiropractors, they have to grind a lot of hours to get there, but that doesn't mean they took an actual doctorate program.

[suntan]

Don't forget Doctor Who.

[rage2]

If you're bored: https://www.alberta.ca/regulated-health-professions

Go thru each of the regulations, you'll be surprised at how many of them allow the use of doctor on the completion of a program approved by their respective professional association.

[ThePenIsMightier]

... It's definitely not worth its weight in gold....

So, you would argue that the importance of the title has been watered down by others with lesser qualifications being able to use it?
Is this a net benefit to society?
If it's not a net benefit, why continue the trend with watering down another professional title by letting unqualified people use those titles?

[killramos]

Just deport them all. Wait which thread is this?

[rage2]

So, you would argue that the importance of the title has been watered down by others with lesser qualifications being able to use it?
Is this a net benefit to society?
If it's not a net benefit, why continue the trend with watering down another professional title by letting unqualified people use those titles?
Nope. I’m not dumb enough to go to Dr. Ho the acupuncturist because it’s clear he’s not an MD.

Again, I’m not against protecting titles. But trying to protect broad titles is a unwinnable battle. Doctor and engineer are words with definition in the dictionary. Trying to gatekeep that to essentially change the definition is stupid.

[ExtraSlow]

I'd be fine if they changed course to only protecting "Professional Engineer" and P. ENG.

That's a big change to how this was legislated in Canada previously, you need a lot of laws re-written, but it might be the best course.

[rage2]

I'd be fine if they changed course to only protecting "Professional Engineer" and P. ENG.

That's a big change to how this was legislated in Canada previously, you need a lot of laws re-written, but it might be the best course.
And it would follow the rest of the English speaking world.

[ExtraSlow]

I've never looked into it. I just drink the local Kool-Aid.

[msommers]

Any real doctor will have a million letters behind their name, not just Dr. The same thing kinda applies with engineers, if you want to know the accreditation, look at the letters not the title.

Hilariously I was in a sports med clinic and the guy used to be an engineer. He is an accomplishes sports med physician now but still keeps his B.Eng and M.Eng behind his name. Engineers really can't help telling people they're engineers. Doctors can't stop talking about shop talk. Imagine if he was vegan too :rofl:

[schurchill39]

Nope. I’m not dumb enough to go to Dr. Ho the acupuncturist because it’s clear he’s not an MD.

Again, I’m not against protecting titles. But trying to protect broad titles is a unwinnable battle. Doctor and engineer are words with definition in the dictionary. Trying to gatekeep that to essentially change the definition is stupid.

You may not be dumb enough but half (guess) the population is. The amount of people who rely on naturopath or any other non-academics as their health care provider is actually staggering.

[rage2]

You may not be dumb enough but half (guess) the population is. The amount of people who rely on naturopath or any other non-academics as their health care provider is actually staggering.
100% those crazies aren’t convinced because of the doctor title. They trust the words of fb crazy strangers. Whole different level of stupid.

[schurchill39]

100% those crazies aren’t convinced because of the doctor title. They trust the words of fb crazy strangers. Whole different level of stupid.

You don't know enough people from Medicine Hat and Lethbridge then.

[ThePenIsMightier]

Let's not forget that elderly people are frequently victimized by this. There are lots of elderly people.

[ExtraSlow]

Too fucking many, we need a pandemic.

[ThePenIsMightier]

Looks like the Law Society of BC is also on the top of their game with Naomi Arbabi.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cbc.ca/amp/1.7025394

[msommers]

Looks like the Law Society of BC is also on the top of their game with Naomi Arbabi.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cbc.ca/amp/1.7025394


"scandalous, frivolous or vexatious."

116826

[rage2]

2024 bump. Software engineer builds a tunnel. Just for you ThePenIsMightier

https://www.tiktok.com/@engineer.everything/video/7268826326511930666?lang=en

Coles Notes - built a 4 story! addition in her backyard. Started digging to get the right rocks to build a castle, then turned into a tunnel to her addition. Been documenting this insanity for a while and now city found out and shut her down.

If I would’ve known about this 2 weeks earlier I would’ve gone in person and took pics. She was literally a few blocks from where I stayed in VA.

[max_boost]

lol you can do that?

[rage2]

lol you can do that?
No lol. She’s been hiding where she lives for a long time but leaked the location in one of the videos, which is how she’s shut down. That’s what I was told anyways. Someone sent me this vid and told me the backstory and thought it was interesting. And funny cuz she’s a software engineer haha.

[schurchill39]

2024 bump. Software engineer builds a tunnel. Just for you ThePenIsMightier

https://www.tiktok.com/@engineer.everything/video/7268826326511930666?lang=en

Coles Notes - built a 4 story! addition in her backyard. Started digging to get the right rocks to build a castle, then turned into a tunnel to her addition. Been documenting this insanity for a while and now city found out and shut her down.

If I would’ve known about this 2 weeks earlier I would’ve gone in person and took pics. She was literally a few blocks from where I stayed in VA.

The only thing I hate more than the fact she calls herself an engineer is her voice. The fact she was able to get away with it for that long and the city didn't know is wild. She hasn't been sneaky about it.

[killramos]

This is what you get for letting keyboard jockies think they are engineers

[suntan]

We're terrible.

[pheoxs]

Sort of does raise the question, if you knew what you were doing, had the funds, and were smart enough not to post it all over social media ... how big of underground bunker could one dig before the city would notice?

[rage2]

This is what you get for letting keyboard jockies think they are engineers
I polled our software engineers and they’ve 100% concluded that she’s an idiot.

[killramos]

i polled our software engineers* and they’ve 100% concluded that she’s an idiot.

ftfy

[msommers]

I'm sure there are plenty of crazies getting ready for the zombie apocalypse doing something similar with a variety of job titles - more than likely Gun Sales Manager in Alabama. Maybe they can elevate their title to Survival Engineer to really ruffle feathers.