Alberta passenger rail MEGA thread

[pheoxs]

Seems there wasn't a thread about trains here yet.

Alberta’s vision for passenger rail | alberta.ca (https://www.alberta.ca/release.cfm?xID=90258B07B5327-EF8B-34DC-92741257629F6518)

New update from the province about seeking a long term plan for growing rail networks in Alberta.


The government’s vision is for an Alberta passenger rail system that includes public, private or hybrid passenger rail, including:



a commuter rail system for the Calgary area that connects surrounding communities and the Calgary International Airport to downtown;
a commuter rail system for the Edmonton area that connects surrounding communities and the Edmonton International Airport to downtown;
regional rail lines from Calgary and Edmonton to the Rocky Mountain parks;
a regional rail line between Calgary and Edmonton, with a local transit hub in Red Deer;
municipal-led LRT systems in Calgary and Edmonton that integrate with the provincial passenger rail system; and
rail hubs serving the major cities that would provide linkages between a commuter rail system, regional rail routes and municipal-led mass transit systems.



Following this process, a Request for Proposal will be issued to select a consultant to develop the Passenger Rail Master Plan. The Master Plan is expected to be completed by summer 2025.

Feels like this is the dozenth time we'll have more studies about trains going to Banff but maybe this is the one that'll actually start to move forward.

[msommers]

One can dream

[bjstare]

One can dream

Of what?

If it goes ahead, are you expecting it to be anything other than an absolute boondoggle that ends up being a bottomless pit of taxpayer dollars with basically an infinite payback period?

Until we quadruple our population and provincial GDP, we shouldn't even think about shit like this.

[Tik-Tok]

Man, I really need to become a "consultant". Those guys make bank on vaporware (or whatever the infrastructure equivalent to vaporware is).

[ExtraSlow]

The dude who owns the banff train station is behind ALL the talk of banff passenger rail. He's made massive investments to drum up support for this. There doesn't seem to be anyone other than that dude and his paid consultants who give a rats ass about banff trains.

You could buy a fleet of 20 busses, and run then 24/7 for FREE and still spend less than subsidizing this rail to banff fuckshow.

EDIT: I also think this is true for calgary-edmonton trains. Although you'd need a fleet of 50 busses, which isn't that difficult actually.

[Misterman]

I'm not opposed to robust public transportation, Alberta is wildly behind the times as far as rail service goes. But I am vehemently opposed to paying for it as a tax payer in what appears to be the most bureaucratic financial blackhole of a country on planet earth.

It's hard to believe that Edmonton has no connection to it's airport whatsoever. But then again, the fact they built it 30km away from the city is a bit hard to believe too.

[Buster]

I'm not opposed to robust public transportation, Alberta is wildly behind the times as far as rail service goes. But I am vehemently opposed to paying for it as a tax payer in what appears to be the most bureaucratic financial blackhole of a country on planet earth.

It's hard to believe that Edmonton has no connection to it's airport whatsoever. But then again, the fact they built it 30km away from the city is a bit hard to believe too.

It's like the Winnipeg ring road. Comically optimistic.

- - - Updated - - -


Seems there wasn't a thread about trains here yet.

Alberta’s vision for passenger rail | alberta.ca (https://www.alberta.ca/release.cfm?xID=90258B07B5327-EF8B-34DC-92741257629F6518)

New update from the province about seeking a long term plan for growing rail networks in Alberta.


[/LIST]



Feels like this is the dozenth time we'll have more studies about trains going to Banff but maybe this is the one that'll actually start to move forward.

Who gave '10s the megathread authority?

[Swank]

If LA and Vegas are just getting started on theirs then we won't see one here in our lifetime - https://www.cbsnews.com/losangeles/news/construction-begins-on-high-speed-rail-line-from-los-angeles-to-las-vegas/

[mr2mike]

Should have started taxing away the tourists back in the 80s for this.

[ExtraSlow]

You could spend a billion dollars building bus stations, and a billion dollars on busses, and a hundred grand a day on operating it, and you'd be money ahead compared to rail for A THOUSAND YEARS.

I defy anyone to come up with any scenario where rail makes any economic sense.

[msommers]

Get the Feds to pay for it because of its intention and path for the National Park. ON/QC would be livid.

[ThePenIsMightier]

You could spend a billion dollars building bus stations, and a billion dollars on busses, and a hundred grand a day on operating it, and you'd be money ahead compared to rail for A THOUSAND YEARS.

I defy anyone to come up with any scenario where rail makes any economic sense.
Ok, Boomer. All it takes is great coffee, great music.


https://youtu.be/YDjy9uJUawU?si=wU5Xo0yPn7_WypN9

[ExtraSlow]

And this comes from a guy who fucking loves trains. So keep that in mind. I really and truly love trains.

[killramos]

Get the Feds to pay for it because of its intention and path for the National Park. ON/QC would be livid.

Liberal marth at its best

Fuck building more glorified cattle carriers.

Let the third world countries be third world

[Tik-Tok]

I really and truly love trains.

Locomotives, or running trains?

[ExtraSlow]

Locomotives, or running trains?

119265

[jutes]

Time to bring back the Edmonton-Calgary-Regina-Saskatoon high speed rail idea. Hell connect Winnipeg with Regina too! The future is now

[pheoxs]

I'm presuming they'll end up just piggybacking on our existing lines for the connection to the parks. Via rail already runs Edmonton - Jasper so I'm guessing this project would just be some stations and small connections for that. I can't see AB actually funding highspeed rail for the legs to the parks. But a dedicated railway for a high speed corridor from Calgary - Red Deer Edmonton might make economical sense with how quick the province is growing.

The population might not be there yet but AB will hit 5 mill people next year and 6 mill around ~2032 at current rates. Probably ends up being a lot cheaper to build it sooner rather than later with the cost of everything going up endlessly.

[Xtrema]

Until we tackle public drug use and the riff rafts, we are just spending billions on mobile homeless shelters.

[ExtraSlow]

Existing tracks cannot handle any high speed rail. Basically have to build new parallel tracks

[Swank]

Until we tackle public drug use and the riff rafts, we are just spending billions on mobile homeless shelters.

Did you just bring up drug use in a rail post?

[max_boost]

Did you just bring up drug use in a rail post?

they need somewhere warm to hang out

[suntan]

Until we tackle public drug use and the riff rafts, we are just spending billions on mobile homeless shelters.

Presumably they wouldn't use the honour system for boarding.

[Xtrema]

Did you just bring up drug use in a rail post?

May gone off to the deep end but I don't see North American population respect public transit property enough to not make those train trips tolerable.

We are still a mostly car owning culture. Door to door Calgary to Edmonton is probably like 3hrs and a tank of gas. Train ticket may beat this for a single person but can never compete with a family of 4. And you may still need a car once you reached destination.

For trains to work, you pretty much have to make car ownership unaffordable.

[pheoxs]

May gone off to the deep end but I don't see North American population respect public transit property enough to not make those train trips tolerable.

We are still a mostly car owning culture. Door to door Calgary to Edmonton is probably like 3hrs and a tank of gas. Train ticket may beat this for a single person but can never compete with a family of 4. And you may still need a car once you reached destination.

For trains to work, you pretty much have to make car ownership unaffordable.

Part of this plan is to link the trains so you can exit the YYC-YEG train onto either of the cities transit systems. There will always be some cases where people need their vehicles but plenty of examples of people coming down to Calgary for meetings and could be just fine staying downtown and then heading home. Or visiting family and just having them pick you up on the other end.

It'll never fully replace cars but even if 10% of the highway 2 traffic shifted over to trains that'd be a huge success. And less congestion for those that do still need to drive.

[Swank]

I was referring to rails of...a powdery drug like substance. Carry on.

[flipstah]

119265


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMZzQY7JTyc

[Xtrema]

That said, I think HSR from Calgary to Vancouver with stops at Banff and Kelowna may work if they charge <$200 one way end to end and get thru the distance in 4 hrs or less.

[Homerrca]

Well there are coke rails :)

[sexualbanana]

Should have started taxing away the tourists back in the 80s for this.

Hasn't the provincial government been cutting o&g royalties since then?



Part of this plan is to link the trains so you can exit the YYC-YEG train onto either of the cities transit systems. There will always be some cases where people need their vehicles but plenty of examples of people coming down to Calgary for meetings and could be just fine staying downtown and then heading home. Or visiting family and just having them pick you up on the other end.

It'll never fully replace cars but even if 10% of the highway 2 traffic shifted over to trains that'd be a huge success. And less congestion for those that do still need to drive.

As someone who had to make this drive multiple times over the last few weeks and potentially more, I wouldn't be too opposed to the idea of a high-speed rail. Of course, it likely wouldn't be built anytime in my future, but it could be pretty useful.

Ultimately, I think the biggest hurdle is it is essentially a single-use facility, and I don't think there'd be enough traffic to justify a station and any other surround amenities. If it can become a hub of high-speed rail, I could see it being pretty awesome and widely used.

[e31]

I'm already uneasy knowing that Edmontonians are 3hrs away from us, and now you want to reduce that to 1hr??? Where do I sign up to have a wall built and make them pay for it.

[ExtraSlow]

That said, I think HSR from Calgary to Vancouver with stops at Banff and Kelowna may work if they charge <$200 one way end to end and get thru the distance in 4 hrs or less.

200 billion project.

[killramos]

High capital cost. Low projected revenue.

Whats not to like.

[Misterman]

200 billion project.

If they can get a private corp to plan, engineer, build, operate the entire thing. Then I might be ok with public infrastructure funding it by way of a loan to be paid back with interest. If no company wants to step up to the plate with those conditions, that tells us all we need to know.

If there was high speed rail to Kelowna, I would absolutely utilize it. But no fucking way would I have the hubris to think the tax payer should fund something that benefits a tiny percentage of people that I happen to be a part of.

[tonytiger55]

I think this is a good idea.
We are way behind the times in terms of rail infrastructure.

Calgary Airport is a end point and not a transit point like Vancouver, Toronto or London. When I ran a motel in Calgary a long time ago. I noticed a lot of the people coming from the airport were just pit stopping for the night before heading out to the mountains.
This could provide a crucial link. Yes the cost is high and revenue is low. But economic benefits(revenue) to primary and secondary businesses is potentially huge.

The high speed rail to Red Deer and Edmonton is long overdue. Cut that time to a hour. There is social and economic benefits to the cities.


For trains to work, you pretty much have to make car ownership unaffordable.

Not necessarily.
Take Banff as a example. Its the convenience factor. It is a 1 hour and 30 minute drive. Add another 30minutes just getting to highway 1 from where one may live (including gas and grabbing a Sausage and Egg McMuffin. I don't lie we all do that).
If that trip is cut to 30/45mins. Add the fact that one can drink as there is no driving. Attend a conference, lunch, stag party etc. It is a attraction.
The other part is that born locals may not participate. But many people who have moved from abroad that use trains all the time, this is a huge thing. Our population is growing.


You could spend a billion dollars building bus stations, and a billion dollars on busses, and a hundred grand a day on operating it, and you'd be money ahead compared to rail for A THOUSAND YEARS.

I defy anyone to come up with any scenario where rail makes any economic sense.

The United Kingdom and India.
Well the UK has a woeful model of how it is run. But the social and economic benefits one cannot argue with.
I got a train from London Paddington to Coventry in about a hour and 40mins. The next day I spent time with my sister and her family. We took the train to Birmingham for shopping, lunch, events. That train journey took 30minutes.
Going to a football match, jump on the train. The same scenario, attending a concert or Hocky game in Edmonton.

I got a train from Delhi India, to Ludhiana. That is a six hour train ride. I got a new super express train that took about three hours. The guy sitting next to me me lives in Delhi, but because of this new train. He is able to go see his family over the weekend. He is even considering moving some parts of this business.


There is another play here. If Alberta pulls this off. It really puts pressure on the other provinces in terms of development and growth.

[killramos]

can Banff even accommodate 5% more tourists? its already an overcrowded mess.

We are solving for a problem that doesn't need to be solved.

Maybe we should just convince people to go to Delhi instead if overcrowding and sweaty people on trains is a desirable outcome.

[flipstah]

can Banff even accommodate 5% more tourists? its already an overcrowded mess.

We are solving for a problem that doesn't need to be solved.

Maybe we should just convince people to go to Delhi instead if overcrowding and sweaty people on trains is a desirable outcome.

If you overlook the syphillis it’d be fine

Didn’t CP or VIA Rail run through Calgary at one or another? I’m not old enough to know

Maybe ExtraSlow would know. The rail line in downtown looked like it was a station at some point

[ExtraSlow]

There was daily passenger rail between calgary and edmonton in my lifetime. True story.
119288

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The United Kingdom and India.

I meant any scenario where it made economic sense in alberta.

[tonytiger55]

can Banff even accommodate 5% more tourists? its already an overcrowded mess.

We are solving for a problem that doesn't need to be solved.

Maybe we should just convince people to go to Delhi instead if overcrowding and sweaty people on trains is a desirable outcome.

I think your points are narrow minded.
Banff is not overcrowded. Car wise yes. Have you ever ventured to London? Thats crowded.

But Banff accommodating more is part of my point. It creates opportunity for growth/property development and more business. Not everyone goes for tourism. My apologies I forgot to add the word 'Commercial'.
People in Europe do use trains for commuting. You do know that right?

It also depends how you define a problem. A two hour drive and a sausage and egg McMuffin may not be problem for you. But not everyone wants to run to the dealership fill up their coolant before heading out on a trip. You can still drive to Banff, Edmonton etc. Just don't forget to add coolant to your SUV or better still just buy a Honda CRV.

Its nice to sit on a train with family, friends and come back the same day not exhausted. That's the difference.

As for convincing people to go to Delhi. Maybe thats not a bad idea. It will be a good education on actual multiculturalism, well run cheap train services, the commercial ventures it attracts and a strong family Unit. Its a good showcase of the trains that are airconditioned and there assigned seating. No sweaty people, no overcrowding. The trip may help address the passive aggressive racism one may have. There are places in the world that do somethings better. Its hard to comprehend, I know I know. Its also a opportunity to try a authentic Chicken Vindaloo.


I meant any scenario where it made economic sense in alberta.

I explained that in my point.
Your argument only uses the variable to calculate in terms of operating profit. My argument is to amend/expand the variables to include travel time and the economic benefit in terms of commercial, property development, banking/finance, insurance and sub commercial industries in the next ten to twenty years. We have natural resources to help fund the operating. Other countries don't have such things.
If one looks at comparable abroad, there is positive argument where it does make economic sense for Alberta.
In the UK, Coventry and Leicester have very low population bases. Yet the sub economic benefits of the rail between the two cities does make a difference. A second comparable is the Channel Tunnel between UK and France. Why build it? 36 years later getting on a train, car to Paris is normal and economically ties are better.

[bjstare]

I think this is a good idea.
We are way behind the times in terms of rail infrastructure.

Calgary Airport is a end point and not a transit point like Vancouver, Toronto or London. When I ran a motel in Calgary a long time ago. I noticed a lot of the people coming from the airport were just pit stopping for the night before heading out to the mountains.
This could provide a crucial link. Yes the cost is high and revenue is low. But economic benefits(revenue) to primary and secondary businesses is potentially huge.

The high speed rail to Red Deer and Edmonton is long overdue. Cut that time to a hour. There is social and economic benefits to the cities.



Not necessarily.
Take Banff as a example. Its the convenience factor. It is a 1 hour and 30 minute drive. Add another 30minutes just getting to highway 1 from where one may live (including gas and grabbing a Sausage and Egg McMuffin. I don't lie we all do that).
If that trip is cut to 30/45mins. Add the fact that one can drink as there is no driving. Attend a conference, lunch, stag party etc. It is a attraction.
The other part is that born locals may not participate. But many people who have moved from abroad that use trains all the time, this is a huge thing. Our population is growing.



The United Kingdom and India.
Well the UK has a woeful model of how it is run. But the social and economic benefits one cannot argue with.
I got a train from London Paddington to Coventry in about a hour and 40mins. The next day I spent time with my sister and her family. We took the train to Birmingham for shopping, lunch, events. That train journey took 30minutes.
Going to a football match, jump on the train. The same scenario, attending a concert or Hocky game in Edmonton.

I got a train from Delhi India, to Ludhiana. That is a six hour train ride. I got a new super express train that took about three hours. The guy sitting next to me me lives in Delhi, but because of this new train. He is able to go see his family over the weekend. He is even considering moving some parts of this business.


There is another play here. If Alberta pulls this off. It really puts pressure on the other provinces in terms of development and growth.

What universe do you live in? Of course it would be convenient. Let’s put high speed rail fucking everywhere, if convenience is the only qualifier :rofl:

In the paradigm I live in (reality), things cost money, so unfortunately that doesn’t work.

[ExtraSlow]

Trains are awesome and convenient. No argument from me on either of those points. I've used trains in Europe and Asia and I liked it.

That's not what we are talking about here though.

[g-m]

What do they have to do with coolant though? That's where I got lost. I might have to call BS on no sweaty people on the train in Delhi. Is there still a significant deodorant shortage?

[killramos]

Everything is a good idea as long as you literally make up whatever nonsense you want and back it up with an incoherent wall of text no one else wants to read lol

[sexualbanana]

I think, logistically, a high-speed rail has to be more than just between Calgary and Edmonton (with stops on the way like Red Deer and wherever else). I think to make it work, you'd have to make both cities a hub and have it branch into smaller routes (like normal rail or buses) to other cities in the province.

Off the top of my head, I can think of Edmonton branching off to GP, Fort Mac and other areas up north. Similarly, Calgary branches off to Medicine Hat, Lethbridge and CNP. And they can maybe make a loop between Calgary, Banff, Jasper and Edmonton with trains running clockwise and counterclockwise like the old 72 and 73 bus routes.

That's the only way, that I can see, that ridership could be sustainable. But that is going to take an insane amount of capital investment that I doubt the province can afford now lest they consider making even more significant funding cuts in other areas.

[max_boost]

Just let in another million billion people and charge a head tax to pay for it :werd:

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This plan is about as feasible as budget airlines trying to make it work in Canada lol

[Misterman]

What do they have to do with coolant though? That's where I got lost. I might have to call BS on no sweaty people on the train in Delhi. Is there still a significant deodorant shortage?

I'm unaware of a deodorant shortage. But I believe a deodorant user shortage still exists.

[flipstah]

I think, logistically, a high-speed rail has to be more than just between Calgary and Edmonton (with stops on the way like Red Deer and wherever else). I think to make it work, you'd have to make both cities a hub and have it branch into smaller routes (like normal rail or buses) to other cities in the province.

Off the top of my head, I can think of Edmonton branching off to GP, Fort Mac and other areas up north. Similarly, Calgary branches off to Medicine Hat, Lethbridge and CNP. And they can maybe make a loop between Calgary, Banff, Jasper and Edmonton with trains running clockwise and counterclockwise like the old 72 and 73 bus routes.

That's the only way, that I can see, that ridership could be sustainable. But that is going to take an insane amount of capital investment that I doubt the province can afford now lest they consider making even more significant funding cuts in other areas.

This.

All the shift people that live in AB that work in Fort Mac could benefit from this. It would also save costs booking chartered flights as well.

Socially beneficial? Yes
Financially beneficial? Depends if ridership can sustain it

[jutes]

How does high-speed rail function in snowy, -30c weather?

[ThePenIsMightier]

...
Financially beneficial? Depends if ridership can sustain it

But, no.
Refer to ExtraSlow's math. It's not Marth.
To build 300+km of track and wildlife fence and electrical infrastructure to then only carry passengers a few times a day is BertStare.jpg

It's just clever enough to potato. Period.

[ExtraSlow]

No private operator would finance such a project, so 8t basically has to be government money.

Government has alternatives that cost less and do more.

[Tik-Tok]

I for one look forward to all the mockery we would receive from European and Asian tourists at our pathetic attempt at passenger rail to Banff.

[arcticcat522]

Insert gif. of Simpsons....
Mono rail, mono rail, mono rail...

[Disoblige]

How does high-speed rail function in snowy, -30c weather?
Have it all underground. Should cost the same ;)

[KrisYYC]

How does high-speed rail function in snowy, -30c weather?

Just fine, in Japan at least. With Canadian work ethic and ingenuity (/sarcasm) I'd imagine our high speed train would barely operate over the winter.


https://youtu.be/_p1_ui4-LKU?si=1ev_Rh8EwJcAKUdm

[bjstare]

This.

All the shift people that live in AB that work in Fort Mac could benefit from this. It would also save costs booking chartered flights as well.

Socially beneficial? Yes
Financially beneficial? Depends if ridership can sustain it

See my comment above about quadrupling our population and GDP. IF we have 4x the people, and for some wild reason, 4x the workforce required up north (lol, won't happen), that's probably still not enough to justify it.

[flipstah]

See my comment above about quadrupling our population and GDP. IF we have 4x the people, and for some wild reason, 4x the workforce required up north (lol, won't happen), that's probably still not enough to justify it.

Oh yeah, European population sustains the railway there.

We're too big of a country and not enough folks, agreed.

[sexualbanana]

I for one look forward to all the mockery we would receive from European and Asian tourists at our pathetic attempt at passenger rail to Banff.

There might be reasonable demand for Banff. Half the reason I don't do more skiing is because I don't want to have to wake up at 5am, drive the 2-ish hours to Louise/Nakiska/Sunshine/whatever, ski for a whole day and then drive 2-ish hours back. That just sounds exhausting.

But the pricing would have to be comparable to the Banff shuttles and I doubt that could be sustainable, especially if we're talking about having to build new infrastructure. Plus, I would worry about the environmental impact because Banff is already pretty busy.

[ExtraSlow]

How woukd a ski day with the train look?

[max_boost]

lol it’s not gonna work but good for those getting paid to conduct the studies

[pheoxs]

I don't really see how Fort Mac would ever make sense. Aside from the fact you'd have to build on all the swamps to get there, there's just nothing there besides the oil sands. It'll never attract any tourism and most of the companies up there are chartering flights anyways. There's just no opportunity to expand things or connect a growing community. Maybe a decade or two ago when we were still building new sites but nowadays there's very little for mega projects up there.

Banff on the other hand would bring more tourism dollars into the province which we need. It would also let the town grow without needing more congestion on the roads or more parking lots. It also has natural steps to future extensions to Lake Loiuse, Golden, Revy, etc. Each segment can be it's own project as the traffic grows and it becomes viable.

[killramos]

How woukd a ski day with the train look?

Very smelly and crowded full of too much crap.

So very on brand for train travel.

[max_boost]

anyone do that via rail across canada?

[gwill]

Breckenridge spent the last 3 mornings discussing the Rail lines. First morning was him guessing that the rail line was calgary to banff only.

Not sure why they thought 3 mornings in a row needed to be dedicated to the Calgary banff rail line when it's a much broader idea and one that most likely doesn't go anywhere.

[flipstah]

anyone do that via rail across canada?

It's expensive and slow. At least $8k to go from Vancouver to Toronto roundtrip in a sleeper room

EDIT: Edmonton to Toronto roundtrip is $3k in a shared sleeper (Berth); 2.5 days each way. I got curious.

---

Important notice

While VIA endeavours to operate on time, the realities of increased freight traffic on tracks that we do not own may give rise to significant delays. We suggest that you plan accordingly, such as not arranging connecting transportation on the day of your arrival.

[ExtraSlow]

Yeah flying looks pretty smart

[jutes]

What would be the cost to expand, pave and enclose the Banff airstrip? Probably less than a new high-speed rail network.

[e31]

What would be the cost to expand, pave and enclose the Banff airstrip? Probably less than a new high-speed rail network.

What would be the cost to twin the highway, fully fence along it's length, add overpasses for the animal safety, THEN RAISE THE F*KING SPEED LIMIT ACCORDINGLY? Oh Wait...