why is it...

[rice_eater]

...that for some people it's a catastrophy that we have rich people?

[thich]

because they will never be one? :dunno:

[Ducati]

I have no problem with a person being paid fairly for work of worth, or that there should be incentives for entrepreneurial types to take risks, make investments and spend the time needed to develop their ideas.

What I have a problem with is the macroeconomic reality of 95+% of our wealth and resources being controlled by .05% of the population. How did that happen? How did we LET it happen?

I have my theories...


I have heard that this is the natural way of things, and that our culture, based on the existence of a large "middle class" is a flawed experiment that was based upon the artificial creation of Franklin D. Rosevelt and his government.

[autobodygal]

My biggest complaint is the unbelievable salaries of entertainment stars, and sports players. Millions of dollars to play baseball, or make movies? There are a lot or people in everday life that do things that are far more valuable than that and make far less doing it.

[dirty_magic]

what about CEO's of companys that go bankrupt? they still get their millions, and then leave. :dunno:

[autobodygal]

Originally posted by dirty_magic
what about CEO's of companys that go bankrupt? they still get their millions, and then leave. :dunno:

Yep them too....assholes.

[Ducati]

Problem is, it costs money to investigate and prosecute those guys. And look what happens if that somebody is a political figure? Brian Mulroney was investigated for influence poeddling and conflict of interest in the Airbus scandal of the early 90's, and when the RCMP investigation stalled, he sued them for $30 million dollars and settled for an undisclosed sum out of court.

What we need here is a good old fashioned assassination.

[Hakkola]

Dammit, I'm tired of people saying entertainers etc. get paid to much, the money has to go somewhere, it's supply and demand, and that's the reality of it. Some people get mad rich, go cry.

If you think tickets for movies etc are too much, then stop going.

A lot of T.V stars get their salaries from ad revenues, again, market rates are dictated by demand.


As for the CEO's, they deserve that money, do you know that they are liable for the actions of the business? It's one of the shittiest jobs you can have, that's why they have to pay these guys so much.

[thich]

for entertainers and sports stars, their salaries are dependent upon supply & demand

for CEOs and mgmt ppl, their salaries are dependent on the level of RISK that is involved in their position as well as supply and demand.

[Ducati]

That is the problem with generalizing - for every example there is a counter-example.

[TheBiz]

I wana be a comercial diver!:poosie:

[koopkoop2]

The only reason the poor hate the rich is because they want to be them and don't know how.

[Ducati]

Originally posted by koopkoop2
The only reason the poor hate the rich is because they want to be them and don't know how.

perhaps there is some truth to that. We all envy lottery winners, right?

Think of this, though - there is no more money to get rich with. The Middle Class is a fast fading concept, and those who have not had the inventive brilliance, entrepreneurial good fortune, or outright avarice and greed to squirrel a million away are much less likely to ever get the chance than people had even 10 years ago. All of the money that is produced, and not in governemnt coffers is controlled by a small fractional percentage of the population.
How do we get these people to part with that money? Any ideas that are better than working as a wage slave all your life? How many of you expect to hit on that one big score?

We are sinking into feudalism.

[koopkoop2]

Originally posted by Ducati


perhaps there is some truth to that. We all envy lottery winners, right?

Think of this, though - there is no more money to get rich with. The Middle Class is a fast fading concept, and those who have not had the inventive brilliance, entrepreneurial good fortune, or outright avarice and greed to squirrel a million away are much less likely to ever get the chance than people had even 10 years ago. All of the money that is produced, and not in governemnt coffers is controlled by a small fractional percentage of the population.
How do we get these people to part with that money? Any ideas that are better than working as a wage slave all your life? How many of you expect to hit on that one big score?

We are sinking into feudalism.


It sounds to me like you're one of those people who think that the only way to get rich is by winning the lottlo. Actually people get rich by starting successful companies or investing wisely.

Also, your quote "There is no more money to get rich with". I'm not exactly sure what you mean by this. Money is always there to be made,by you, by me or by anyone else who is willing to go out and get it. It just takes the right product or service to collect it. Start your own company and quit your job. You won't get rich working for someone else.

[Ducati]

True.

There was a very timely article in The Vancouver Sun today (Thurs April 15/04) headlined "Growing Income Gap Hurts our Quality of Life:Study", on the front page of the paper. According to this article, a study released by the Federation of Canadian Municipalities entitled "Quality of Life in Canadian Municipalities", examining six quality of life factors in twenty cities, and found that in every city quality of life has deteriorated over the past decade and that the erosion has created an income gulf where the majority of the population are merely subsisting. We are less able to afford homes, face greater risks of every type from the possibility of our remaining investments failing to perform or loss altogether, crime, health issues, further reductions in social programs and continued erosion of a sense of overall securty.

More and More people are losing ground to a scant few who are monopolizing the GDP.
The income gap is widening. Thats a proven and demonstratable fact, and I am a little irritated by there no longer being a level playing field.

I have owned two companies - one was vastly successful, and the other was destroyed by my ex wife and her lawyers. I can tell you that more people loose their shirts than make it in the entrepreneurial world.
I agree that risk takers who succeed should be rewarded, and that is more relevent today than ever before - but tell me this; does Jimmy Pattison need another billion dollars?

[Shaolin]

I agree about the whole deal about when is enough enough? How I see it, the whole deal of entrepreneurship is a challenge.. I do it, and i'm sure everyone who's ran their own business do it. The first million is always the hardest to make.. but ask yourself.. You've worked your ass off, you made your first million.. are you going to stop?

It's not up to us to decide if Gates need another billion or whatever... I wouldn't be suprised if it's just for fun in a way.. hell, you made the billions, lets see if you can make another one.. Lets see how much more I can pull away from the pack just because "I can"..

If I made that much money, I'd put aside enough money for me to live luxuriously, and every year give the rest to my friends, or charities or whatever.. but that's me..

I also wouldn't be suprised if these rich people give their money away for charity purposes, hell it's a write-off anyways, kill 2 birds with one stone..

and I'd question the idea that you can't get rich by working for someone else.. you sure the hell can get rich working for someone else.

[Ducati]

All valid, and I have undertaken a difficult point to make. None-the-less, there is a chasm widening and it means that most people's economic conditions have deteriorated, and will continue to do so.
Thats just a verifiable fact.

Hey, Im no spring chicken and have had my fun, and lots of it. I feel a sense of sadness for young guys who will never be able to do what I have done.

An example: Tuition today is almost 10 times what it was when I went to U of M.

[403Gemini]

i was actually just talking about this with a guy at work today

it seems that canada is almost turning into a 3rd world country. we get paid shitty wages for hard working jobs, no matter where you go. unless your a doctor, sports star, actor/actress, lawyer your a nobody. only like 10% of people who start their own business gets past the 1st year... thats scary.

minimum wage is what $6 an hr now? can a person honestly survive on $6 an hr? minimum wage is SUPPOSED to be workin 8 hrs a day, 5days a week, and still be liable for a holiday and STILL be able to survive but the reality is... well thats not possible. I make about 1400-2000 a month and i could never live on my own. im with my parents right now and i still find myself living pay cheque to pay cheque. its not that im a spending freak its just that ill buy maybe 1-2 shirts or jeans and then buy food, pay rent, and pay my bills.

my reasoning is that we make $6 an hr while in brazil they make $6 a day, yet with $6 a hr in canada you scrape by, and in brazil $6 a day you scrape by. its not much different. its not like in canada we can go out to a tree pick some apples and eat it for breakfast, no we gotta buy everything. the amount of money people make doesnt equal the amount you need to spend to survive.

its pathetic and it pisses me off

[RiCE-DaDDy]

Originally posted by 403Gemini
i was actually just talking about this with a guy at work today

it seems that canada is almost turning into a 3rd world country. we get paid shitty wages for hard working jobs, no matter where you go. unless your a doctor, sports star, actor/actress, lawyer your a nobody. only like 10% of people who start their own business gets past the 1st year... thats scary.

minimum wage is what $6 an hr now? can a person honestly survive on $6 an hr? minimum wage is SUPPOSED to be workin 8 hrs a day, 5days a week, and still be liable for a holiday and STILL be able to survive but the reality is... well thats not possible. I make about 1400-2000 a month and i could never live on my own. im with my parents right now and i still find myself living pay cheque to pay cheque. its not that im a spending freak its just that ill buy maybe 1-2 shirts or jeans and then buy food, pay rent, and pay my bills.

my reasoning is that we make $6 an hr while in brazil they make $6 a day, yet with $6 a hr in canada you scrape by, and in brazil $6 a day you scrape by. its not much different. its not like in canada we can go out to a tree pick some apples and eat it for breakfast, no we gotta buy everything. the amount of money people make doesnt equal the amount you need to spend to survive.

its pathetic and it pisses me off

Your argument is somewhat flawed.
The minimum wage in Alberta is $6 (well 5.90 but whateva) and even the crappiest jobs pay more than that. While other provinces have higher minimum wages and jobs actually do pay that minimum. That's just basic economics. Alberta has the lowest minimum wage and is the most prosperus province.

[403Gemini]

Originally posted by RiCE-DaDDy


Your argument is somewhat flawed.
The minimum wage in Alberta is $6 (well 5.90 but whateva) and even the crappiest jobs pay more than that. While other provinces have higher minimum wages and jobs actually do pay that minimum. That's just basic economics. Alberta has the lowest minimum wage and is the most prosperus province.

because we only have 7% tax, thats why

and yes it may be "flawed"

but okay, do you think you could survive even with $8 an hr ?like i mentioned i make 1400-2000 a month

worst case scenario, i made 1400. i work 32 hrs a week. thats 10.94 an hr and i can barely survive payin rent to my parents (which isnt a lot) buyin my own food, payin for my cell bill, payin my credit cards, car and student loan.

thats weak to me. canada is cheap. 10-15 yrs ago, there was quality in service. adults would work at places like co-op and they coudl have a career there. they used to pay extremely decent and people were happy... now everywhere knows they can hire stupid high school scabs who will do the same job for $7 per hr.

its smart for the people in the office cause they are saving a lot of money. why not pay a person 1/3 less than another person for doing the same job. granted the service isnt as good, but who cares right? as long as YOUR making money

the way the gov't taxes are set, its impossible for the middle class working man to get ahead on society

[RiCE-DaDDy]

Originally posted by 403Gemini


because we only have 7% tax, thats why

and yes it may be "flawed"

but okay, do you think you could survive even with $8 an hr ?like i mentioned i make 1400-2000 a month

worst case scenario, i made 1400. i work 32 hrs a week. thats 10.94 an hr and i can barely survive payin rent to my parents (which isnt a lot) buyin my own food, payin for my cell bill, payin my credit cards, car and student loan.

thats weak to me. canada is cheap. 10-15 yrs ago, there was quality in service. adults would work at places like co-op and they coudl have a career there. they used to pay extremely decent and people were happy... now everywhere knows they can hire stupid high school scabs who will do the same job for $7 per hr.

its smart for the people in the office cause they are saving a lot of money. why not pay a person 1/3 less than another person for doing the same job. granted the service isnt as good, but who cares right? as long as YOUR making money

the way the gov't taxes are set, its impossible for the middle class working man to get ahead on society

People still do have careers at places like those. When I worked at Safeway, most of my coworkers were really old. For example, one guy was like early 30's and worked fulltime making $9.50 and still had money to lease a VW Golf.

Anyways, setting higher minimum wages are not the answer.

[Weapon_R]

Originally posted by 403Gemini
minimum wage is SUPPOSED to be workin 8 hrs a day, 5days a week, and still be liable for a holiday and STILL be able to survive but the reality is

The reality is quite different. Find out what minimum wage does to the low income working class and see why governments love the notion.

[rage2]

Originally posted by 403Gemini
but okay, do you think you could survive even with $8 an hr ?like i mentioned i make 1400-2000 a month
Yes it is. Of course, it's not gonna be a comfy lifestyle, you'll never own anything, living in the ghetto, but it is pretty easy to live off $1000/month.

Or you can move to a smaller town. I mean, Calgary is a city where living expenses aren't exactly cheap. Move to a small town and you can be in the middle class with $1000/month. Minimum wage is just a starting point. I mean, I worked minimum wage before, who hasn't? The point is you further your career and make more money to afford the cool shit in life. If your skills are so horrible that you can't ever make more than minimum wage, then this is an option I recommend, move to a small town, get a job at the local corner store for minimum wage, and live a decent lifestyle. If you can't earn luxuries, you shouldn't have 'em, simple as that.

If you wanna have luxuries in your life (such as internet to read this post), you'll die on minimum wage.

As for the atheletes, entertainment people, supply and demand. If you're a bum, who the hell wants to see you on TV, print ads, etc. Maybe go on a reality show to increase your demand, at which point you can supply yourself and make some money.

[Ben]

If I may recommend a resource in relation to this discussion, you should all go read the book "Rich Dad, Poor Dad" by Robert Kiyosaki.

This book is gold and will make a lot of sense out of the the arguments about "rich versus poor", "education versus entreprenurialship" and pretty much all questions in general relating to being an employee versus employer.

It most certainly is not a Walkthrough on how to do it, but it sure outlines many reasons why society is how it is. Most people wont agree with everything in the book, however reading oit for what it is, is a good recommendation of mine.

How many of your parents told you when you were going to grade school "Work hard, get good grades, get a good education so that you can get a good job"

Thats old fashioned thinking.

How many of your parents could walk away from their job and retire right now? Doubt very many, and why is this? Because they are working for money. They have debts like mortgages, credit cards, car payments etc that need to be paid back. They work for decades running the same rat race. They get a raise and then spend more money, so nothing really changes, your in the same level really, just a larger debit and debt number per month. Now I'm not saying this is a bad thing, a lot of people are happy about this, and have no problem doing what they do for a living, money isn't everything and they are comfortable with the lifestyle they lead. However those who complain about the people richer than them, well, the following applies. These people learn nothing about money except from those who profit from their naiveté. Most go to work and do jobs they do not like to pay the bills and are deep down unhappy with their personal view of their employment. Yet what do they tell you as a child? "Work hard, get good grades, get a good education so that you can get a good job"

Few people own everything clean and clear. Rich people (I'm talking very rich) almost often work the other way around. They make money work for them. They've taken risks and turn them into benefits.

People often just complain about people who are wealthy, because they have it in their head that it's the other persons fault they are not rich and not them. People complain, "I'm not rich cause of tax", "I'm not rich because I dont get paid enough etc etc." People have an issue admitting to themselves that they need to change their thoughts, outlooks and procedures. If their excuse is always the employer, that means they would have to change the employer, that is not a possible task, however, if you can look at yourself and say "What am I doing wrong" that is your first step.

I'm not saying everyone will be not be happy unless their the owner of a corporation or a rich entertainer, a lot of people are content with where they are. I'm just saying for those who complain about being poor or whatnot, it's not everyone elses fault. There ARE ways around paying a lot of tax, and expendatures, it just depends on whether you want to work for it.


My favorite quote in regards to work, is this:

"Work Smart, not Hard"

[Ducati]

Originally posted by Weapon_R


The reality is quite different. Find out what minimum wage does to the low income working class and see why governments love the notion.

The Gov't loves the notion because minimum wage provides enough to keep people off welfare. It provides an entry level salary for someone just entering the workforce. But thats all it provides. You cant even pay rent and feed/clothe yourself on minimum wage here in BC, let alone own a car. Its BusPass world for you.

I have read Ben's post, and note that his points are all sound. However I presently work at a bankruptcy trustee's office in downtown Vancouver, and know that more people are going bankrupt now than at any time in history, even the "dirty thirties". I have gained a perspective of the prevailing economic conditions in Canada, and we are collectively all about to hit the wall.

The point is this - It is a FACT that we (you) have LESS disposable income as a percentage of costs of necessities than I had in the seventies, or my parents had in the fifties.
Some of you guys in Alberta are blessed by being able to work in the oil and petrochemical industry and do very well for yourselves. I am pleased that those opportunities exist.

However, here in BC things are very different. This is a horrendously expensive place to live, and salaries here do not proportionately compensate. The only reason I do not move back to Manitoba is that I love being able to ride my motorcycle 12 months a year.

[el_fefes]

You know why people complain so much? It's because they(we) consume too much. It's just the way we've been brought up. It's all about the having the "best" clothes, the best phone...etc. Sometimes we spend more than we can afford...but that's the way it is

[RiCE-DaDDy]

Originally posted by Ben

Few people own everything clean and clear. Rich people (I'm talking very rich) almost often work the other way around. They make money work for them. They've taken risks and turn them into benefits.


Very true, need money to make money.

[BebeAphrodite]

Originally posted by RiCE-DaDDy


Very true, need money to make money. :werd:

[rice_eater]

Originally posted by RiCE-DaDDy


Very true, need money to make money.

uhm no

[autobodygal]

Originally posted by Ben

How many of your parents told you when you were going to grade school "Work hard, get good grades, get a good education so that you can get a good job"

Thats old fashioned thinking.

How many of your parents could walk away from their job and retire right now? Doubt very many, and why is this? Because they are working for money. They have debts like mortgages, credit cards, car payments etc that need to be paid back. They work for decades running the same rat race. They get a raise and then spend more money, so nothing really changes, your in the same level really, just a larger debit and debt number per month. Now I'm not saying this is a bad thing, a lot of people are happy about this, and have no problem doing what they do for a living, money isn't everything and they are comfortable with the lifestyle they lead. However those who complain about the people richer than them, well, the following applies. These people learn nothing about money except from those who profit from their naiveté. Most go to work and do jobs they do not like to pay the bills and are deep down unhappy with their personal view of their employment. Yet what do they tell you as a child? "Work hard, get good grades, get a good education so that you can get a good job"

Few people own everything clean and clear. Rich people (I'm talking very rich) almost often work the other way around. They make money work for them. They've taken risks and turn them into benefits.

People often just complain about people who are wealthy, because they have it in their head that it's the other persons fault they are not rich and not them. People complain, "I'm not rich cause of tax", "I'm not rich because I dont get paid enough etc etc." People have an issue admitting to themselves that they need to change their thoughts, outlooks and procedures. If their excuse is always the employer, that means they would have to change the employer, that is not a possible task, however, if you can look at yourself and say "What am I doing wrong" that is your first step.

I'm not saying everyone will be not be happy unless their the owner of a corporation or a rich entertainer, a lot of people are content with where they are. I'm just saying for those who complain about being poor or whatnot, it's not everyone elses fault. There ARE ways around paying a lot of tax, and expendatures, it just depends on whether you want to work for it.


My favorite quote in regards to work, is this:

"Work Smart, not Hard"

Certainly when I compare what I made years ago to what I make now and there is a substantial difference believe me. My spending habits have most definately changed to be sure as well. I used to survive on $1400.00 per month, now I pay that in taxes per month. I could still survive on that $1400.00, but it boils down to what I have grown accustomed to. My son is just learning this, he recently moved out. He's finding out that the lifestyle he had at home was a damn good one. And it didn't just magically appear. Someone worked for it.
I have no problem with those that work for their money, I was just commenting on the enormous salaries that some make.(IE:sports and movie celebrities.) I wouldn't want the stress of running a multi-billion dollar company for all the money it offers. I don't blame others for their wealth, even when it is not worked for. Why would I? It makes me determined to get further ahead, however I am able.
Who would turn down an inheritance of any sum of money just because we didn't work for it? Not too damn many.
Anyone can make money, if they want to.

[ninjak84]

everything is explained in the song!

too short - gettin it
:rofl:


Originally posted by autobodygal
Anyone can make money, if they want to.

agreed!!! :thumbsup:
there's nothing worse than poor people bitching about it....

[Ducati]

and you can loose it too.

Has anybody ever had to rely on the services of a lawyer? You will know what I mean.

[RiCE-DaDDy]

Originally posted by rice_eater


uhm no

uh huh

[sexualbanana]

Originally posted by rice_eater
...that for some people it's a catastrophy that we have rich people?



Originally posted by thich
because they will never be one? :dunno:


"Those who think money is the root of all evil, doesn't fucking have any."
-Ben Affleck (Boiler Room)

[Ducati]

Had Money - Had Wife. Have Neither any more.