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Toma
04-30-2004, 06:00 PM
Do you REALLY buy that these are isolated incidences?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3674355.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3674795.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/3675215.stm

Khyron
05-01-2004, 12:30 AM
Big difference between abuse and torture. Yes the American troops responsible need to be punished. But to paint all American troops with the same brush is no different than saying shoot all the Arabs because they are all terrorists.

Khyron

legereandrew4
05-01-2004, 03:58 AM
:thumbsdow

SI-vic
05-01-2004, 04:06 AM
more pictures which I think are disgusting. The soldiers NEED to be punished, but I would honestly like to hear their side of the story.

http://i.a.cnn.net/cnn/2004/WORLD/meast/04/30/iraq.photos/story.hood.cbs.jpg

http://i.a.cnn.net/cnn/2004/WORLD/meast/04/30/iraq.photos/story.point.cbs.jpg

Khyron
05-01-2004, 10:24 AM
I think the greater issue is that hardly any American newspapers are covering the story - most have either buried it deep in the center, or are skipping it entirely. That may change, but I think they are just making it worse by trying to hide it.

Those wires btw aren't hooked up to anything. It may not be torture IMO but it's abuse and it makes everyone involved look bad. Apparently the soldiers involved are completely inexperienced and were put in charge of the prison. They need to go higher and find out who the idiot was that let it get out of control.

Khyron

Toma
05-01-2004, 12:30 PM
LOL.... torture is physical and mental. It does not matter that the wires were not hooked up. THe prisoners beleived they were hooked up, and were told if they stepped off the box, they would be electrocuted. One guy reportadly stood on a box without food or water or sleep for 3 days. Is it torture?

Funny to me how a soldier in a modern army can plead ignorance to the rules of war, the geneva convention, and any sort of humanitarian training.

Most of the prisoners were common thieves and vandals and not soldiers by the way.

"I didn't know any better" is not an excuse, though, realizing the American army is nothing but high school drop outs exlpains it a BIT better; ) ;)

hjr
05-01-2004, 01:05 PM
fuck, i dont really care. what do you think the arab would soldiers do if they captured american types?

Im guessing much much worse just judging by what has been done to non-combatants (contractors) up to this date. So what if they huliated theys guys and scared them with threats, bla bla bla. Its war. They are the enemy.

I dont agree with the treatment they recieved but making some guy feel down cause his wiener is hangind out really doesnt really make me feel that the whole american force is torturing their captives. And i dont feel its a reason to get all up in arms about the war. I think it is definetely NOT and isolated incident, but it is not really a big deal IMO. but remeber, i dont agree with what they did, i just dont think these cases are a big deal.

BTW, did you know that sleep deprivation is the best form of getting info out of people in a mainly non-violent way?

Weapon_R
05-01-2004, 01:33 PM
Originally posted by hjr
fuck, i dont really care. what do you think the arab would soldiers do if they captured american types?


The people who killed the humanitarian soldiers were not Arab soldiers. Get your facts straight. The American POWs during the first months of fighting were not treated poorly. They were well fed and taken care of, and were given immediate medical attention (do you remember where Jessica Lynch was found?)

hjr
05-01-2004, 01:47 PM
Originally posted by Weapon_R


The people who killed the humanitarian soldiers were not Arab soldiers. Get your facts straight. The American POWs during the first months of fighting were not treated poorly. They were well fed and taken care of, and were given immediate medical attention (do you remember where Jessica Lynch was found?) ya, i know that. i didnt say they were. but that is true, they were treated well at the start. the main point i wanted to make was that to our knowledge, they werent really physically harmed, which makes me not really care, but thats my opinion. soldiers know what they are getting into when they join up, on either side. But i think i can tell you dont agree with my view. thats cool.

SI-vic
05-01-2004, 02:37 PM
Originally posted by hjr
ya, i know that. i didnt say they were. but that is true, they were treated well at the start. the main point i wanted to make was that to our knowledge, they werent really physically harmed, which makes me not really care, but thats my opinion. soldiers know what they are getting into when they join up, on either side. But i think i can tell you dont agree with my view. thats cool.

Mental torture is just as bad as physical torture.
If you are mentally beaten over and over again, it does so much damage to the way you live and to the people who are around you.

But I understand why you dont care though.... I just dont believe in ANY abuse wheather it be physical or mental.

Khyron
05-01-2004, 03:50 PM
Originally posted by SI-vic
Mental torture is just as bad as physical torture.
If you are mentally beaten over and over again, it does so much damage to the way you live and to the people who are around you.

But I understand why you dont care though.... I just dont believe in ANY abuse wheather it be physical or mental.

I'll take the mental torture over the power drill in the skull or the glass dowel in the dick thanks.

Khyron

SI-vic
05-01-2004, 04:41 PM
Originally posted by Khyron


I'll take the mental torture over the power drill in the skull or the glass dowel in the dick thanks.

Khyron

thats extreme physical torture.
hahaha that doesnt count.

rice_eater
05-01-2004, 06:11 PM
how quickly we forget about the first american prisoners that were tortured in this war, and all the other prisoners that were tortured during the first gulf war. Remember all those mutilated american bodies they were parading around town? We just focus on sensational stories coz the media bombards us with this crap. Shit like this happens in ALL WARS by ALL SIDES! War brings out the worst in a lot of people, and everyone who thinks that wars are fought strictly by the rules of engagement is dreaming. For all we know those same guys that were poping RPGs at them. Or maybe they blew up some foreign contractors. Were's all the rage about the cowardly bomb attacks against soldiers and foreign workers? Oh we dont go out screaming about those guys do we?Hell if i was in a war, with nerves stretched to the limit and i got my hands on the guy who blew up my best friend i'd fuck him up real good too. Look how quick we are to jump at the throat of people who piss us off in real life. How do you think you'd do in a war situation? Yes it's wrong but lets not kid ourselves, that's war.

Toma
05-01-2004, 09:00 PM
Mutilated bodies? THsoe were security guards ravaged by a mob. The Iraqi's tortured in the jails WERE NOT soldiers.

They were arrested for various reasons like looting, theft etc.

No excuse. You are over there supposedly on a mission to bring peace, then you torture people :dunno:

rice_eater
05-01-2004, 09:20 PM
you dont remember that? ok...how about the 4 contractors that were hanged not very long ago?

Toma
05-03-2004, 02:18 PM
Originally posted by rice_eater
you dont remember that? ok...how about the 4 contractors that were hanged not very long ago?
That's EXACTLY what i said. Are you seriously trying to compare mob mentaility killing 4 mercinaries compared to torturing people in jail by trained soldiers???

The US is gonna beat a hasty retreat from Iraq.... Look at Falluja! The US is withdrawing, and letting in the old Iraqi republican guard, headed by Saddam's old general. LOL What a joke this is turning out to be. More of a clown show then ever.

The US is fast losing control, and are having trouble containing the uprisings, and media propoganda.....

I love it ;)

Khyron
05-03-2004, 02:23 PM
Ok man, you can calm down now - some of the soldiers involved have been "reprimanded severely" and it "may spell the end of their careers" so all is well now. :nut:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4855930/

Yeesh.

Khyron

Weapon_R
05-03-2004, 02:43 PM
Originally posted by rice_eater
you dont remember that? ok...how about the 4 contractors that were hanged not very long ago?

That had nothing to do with Iraqi soldiers. Iraqi soldiers treated American POWs with nothing but respect when they were captured, seeking immediate medical care and refraining from any torture.

finboy
05-04-2004, 07:32 PM
lol, who didn't see this comming, american army at its finest :thumbsup: :rofl:

the upcomming election should be interesting.

Toma
05-04-2004, 09:28 PM
NOW they are invesitgating MURDERS that occured in those jails and were covered up by the American's.... so just casue you are in the US Army, you can murder someone, and then only get reduced in rank!

Oh boy, this is gonna get real interesting!

hjr
05-04-2004, 11:20 PM
ya, i am now willing to change my stance on these events. they are a lot more hanous than originally thought...

Ben
05-05-2004, 08:24 AM
WAR means for some people = Where Are Rules?

War blows, like said above, it brings out the worst in people...in all sides, in all forms.

SwitchBlade
05-05-2004, 06:15 PM
Originally posted by Ben
WAR means for some people = Where Are Rules?

War blows, like said above, it brings out the worst in people...in all sides, in all forms.

What about the music group war? I think low rider is a kickin song brings out the best of me when im cruzen. :burnout:

Big_C_racing
05-05-2004, 07:17 PM
The fact that this happened if disgusting. The fact that it happened to an army with little credability to start in the arab world and one that is trying to bring peace to a place that hates them is even worse. Now the fact that the retarded American president refuses to appoligize (which would have helped) makes the western world look like a bunch of abusive hipocrits. Now that this has hapened, the bush administration has lost its last objective for Iraq.
Weapons of Mass Destruction..........there were none
working with Al-Quida...............never happened
Stop the Saddam gov. which has been tourturing and humiliating people...............American gov. is doing the same thing.

Of course not all american soldiers act like this but just like what was said above, not all arabs are terrorists. Now that this has happened, it creates a much more negative image for the western world and more specifically the Americans, than the already had. This may soon open the floodgates for escalated violence against the US, Isreal and Europe.

Alpine Autowerks
05-05-2004, 07:31 PM
Well Toma

turns out you were right



Bush is a war criminal

The US army is trained to conquer not occupy.

As signatories to the Geneva conventions, the conduct of the Iraqi armies or people should have NO bearing on their conduct towards them.

RSRT-4
05-05-2004, 07:50 PM
You guys are like arm chair quarterbacks you are not over there fighting for freedom against terrorist so you really have no say in the mattter any american or colitioin (sp) soilders will be abused mentall and physically in the same way I'm sure. what about the civilians that are being kidnapped? they had nothing to do with the war they are trying to help but like the cowards that terrorist are .

finboy
05-05-2004, 07:56 PM
Originally posted by RSRT-4
You guys are like arm chair quarterbacks you are not over there fighting for freedom against terrorist so you really have no say in the mattter any american or colitioin (sp) soilders will be abused mentall and physically in the same way I'm sure. what about the civilians that are being kidnapped? they had nothing to do with the war they are trying to help but like the cowards that terrorist are .

did you even read the thread?

american soilders that were held prisoner were treated with respect, given food and medical aid.

iraqi's that have been jailed are being mentally tortured and demorilized, not to mention TEN deaths being investigated (2 already being ruled as homicide).

but they are fighting for freedom :rolleyes:

RSRT-4
05-05-2004, 08:02 PM
Yeah I heard about it but unfortunately can't always believe what you read or see any more it's election time and the mudslingin has started and the bleeding heart are coming to the for front all thou I agree they should just leave iraq that country doesn't want peace they just want to kill each other

finboy
05-05-2004, 08:06 PM
Originally posted by RSRT-4
Yeah I heard about it but unfortunately can't always believe what you read or see any more it's election time and the mudslingin has started and the bleeding heart are coming to the for front all thou I agree they should just leave iraq that country doesn't want peace they just want to kill each other

actually, they just don't want to be invaded by a country that desimated their economy.

as for political mudslinging, you can't argue with it when even the president is going on arab television stations trying to explain how this was an isolated incident.

BigMass
05-05-2004, 08:50 PM
Originally posted by RSRT-4
any american or colitioin (sp) soilders will be abused mentall and physically in the same way I'm sure. .
How are you so sure? Are you there fighting and know what's going on? And also, does one wrong justify another? So because of this incidance that means if the Iraqis start torturing American prisoners in retaliation that would be ok?


Originally posted by RSRT-4
You guys are like arm chair quarterbacks you are not over there fighting for freedom

Fighting for freedom? This is who the American soldiers are fighting for and paying with their lives.
http://ritkhan.homestead.com/files/ownedsharrowned_1_.jpg

hjr
05-05-2004, 11:36 PM
haha, ouch.


Originally posted by RSRT-4
You guys are like arm chair quarterbacks you are not over there fighting for freedom against terrorist so you really have no say in the mattter any american or colitioin (sp) soilders will be abused mentall and physically in the same way I'm sure. what about the civilians that are being kidnapped? they had nothing to do with the war they are trying to help but like the cowards that terrorist are .
After reading this, I just want to point 1 thing out here before we go any futher - Iraq has NO links to terrorism, other that the fact that Al Quada consists mostly of Arab muslims and Iraq is made up of mostly Muslim Arabs. Iraq posed NO threat to the United States in ANY way. They are not fighting for freedom, that is a word thrown at us contantly to make people who dont think for themselves believe that the war is justified.

Did you know that life under Sadam was BETTER than it is now with all the killing and unemployment and hunger. Now this is not to say that in the end there lives wont be better off, but they have a long period of hardship ahead because the US fucked up.

Weapon_R
05-06-2004, 12:07 AM
That is true. It's funny. Time and again, Saddam has stated his will to kill Osama Bin Laden. The two share VERY different, and very opposing ideologies. We were led to believe that Iraq was sponsoring Al Qaeda, although this turned out to be a lie.

We were then led to believe that the U.S. supplied WMD existed in Iraq, which were never found.

Finally, the war shifted to give the Iraqis their freedom. I think anyone over the age of 14 can figure out that an occupying force will never be able to grant freedom until it leaves. And when it does? No one has figured that out yet. I suspect CHAOS. Absolute chaos in a power struggle that will leave countless members of Shi'ite and Sunni muslims dead. There is simply too much animosity between the two sects, that stems back nearly 1500 years. The United States is not going to solve the differences between the two in the two months that they have projected (June 30th deadline).

Once again, for those who have justified the United States Army's conduct of Iraqi POWs by stating that the Iraqi army did the same, understand that the people committing the horrific attacks against the foreigners are not Iraqi soldiers, morons. This is not a hard concept. Some Iraqis are angry at the foreign presence, and are taking matters into their own hands.

Super_Geo
05-06-2004, 02:48 PM
Originally posted by RSRT-4
You guys are like arm chair quarterbacks you are not over there fighting for freedom against terrorist so you really have no say in the mattter any american or colitioin (sp) soilders will be abused mentall and physically in the same way I'm sure. what about the civilians that are being kidnapped? they had nothing to do with the war they are trying to help but like the cowards that terrorist are .


Originally posted by RSRT-4
Yeah I heard about it but unfortunately can't always believe what you read or see any more it's election time and the mudslingin has started and the bleeding heart are coming to the for front all thou I agree they should just leave iraq that country doesn't want peace they just want to kill each other

RSRT-4, you really don't have any idea what you're talking about and your posts show that quite well. Please, either read up on it so you can embarass yourself less the next time you post, or stop posting.

Alpine Autowerks
05-06-2004, 03:02 PM
Originally posted by RSRT-4
You guys are like arm chair quarterbacks .


what are you doing on a forum if you do not believe in armchair QBing ?

403Gemini
05-06-2004, 03:49 PM
its war, its rough

this isnt paintball where if you give up its an etiquitte to be "okay hahah that was fun, lets go for beers"

no, you get caught your the enemy. do you expect lazy boy chairs? if you do your a fool.

yes what they did was wrong, but so was EVERY single war on EVERY single side.

soliders would have their arms in the air surrendering and be shot down. this happened like i said in every war on every side. americans, canadians, bristish, they did it as well as germans, italians, french, russians. everybody did it.

if you go to another country you should be expecting to die. your lucky if they take you as a prisoner and your even luckier if they dont do anything to you besides lock you up. should we talk about the vietnamese and their P.O.W camps back in the 60's and 70's?

davidI
05-06-2004, 04:31 PM
It's different if you raid someone's country and ravenge them than if they come into your country and do the same to you. Personally, if I went into your home and killed your family, society wouldn't think of it as a terrible thing if you tortured me. If I went into your home, killed your family and then tortured you, it's sick, brutal and unjustified.

I'm not trying to make this a discussion of whether or not the U.S. should be there, it's just that I see a reason for the Iraqi's to do these things to the American's but I can't see why American's should be torturing the Iraqi's in their prisons.

Khyron
05-06-2004, 04:43 PM
Also, you don't know what those prisoners are there for. Some of them could be rapists or murderers - you wouldn't have any sympathy if the guards put Paul Bernardo on a leash would you? Not saying that's the deal, but don't think all the prisoners are poor innocents either.

Khyron

Toma
05-06-2004, 04:46 PM
Originally posted by Khyron
Also, you don't know what those prisoners are there for. Some of them could be rapists or murderers - you wouldn't have any sympathy if the guards put Paul Bernardo on a leash would you? Not saying that's the deal, but don't think all the prisoners are poor innocents either.

Khyron
True, but we have no idea of what they are in jail for... and they certainly were not tried or put through any legal process.... they may be 100% innocent.... we just don't know.

Cyruss12
05-06-2004, 06:31 PM
Originally posted by Khyron
I think the greater issue is that hardly any American newspapers are covering the story - most have either buried it deep in the center, or are skipping it entirely. That may change, but I think they are just making it worse by trying to hide it.

Those wires btw aren't hooked up to anything. It may not be torture IMO but it's abuse and it makes everyone involved look bad. Apparently the soldiers involved are completely inexperienced and were put in charge of the prison. They need to go higher and find out who the idiot was that let it get out of control.

Khyron

I don't know what American papers you read, but i live in the U.S. and i'll i've seen over the past few weeks, on TV and in the newspapers and even on the Radio is stories about this, so you cant say they're not covering the story.

403Gemini
05-06-2004, 06:32 PM
Originally posted by davidI
It's different if you raid someone's country and ravenge them than if they come into your country and do the same to you. Personally, if I went into your home and killed your family, society wouldn't think of it as a terrible thing if you tortured me. If I went into your home, killed your family and then tortured you, it's sick, brutal and unjustified.

I'm not trying to make this a discussion of whether or not the U.S. should be there, it's just that I see a reason for the Iraqi's to do these things to the American's but I can't see why American's should be torturing the Iraqi's in their prisons.

if you killed my family and then i beat the living fuck outta you, but you still lived, you could sue me. and yes you could win.

thats OUR society

Khyron
05-06-2004, 07:13 PM
Originally posted by Cyruss12
I don't know what American papers you read, but i live in the U.S. and i'll i've seen over the past few weeks, on TV and in the newspapers and even on the Radio is stories about this, so you cant say they're not covering the story.

It was an MSN article about how initially while all the international press was covering it, many US papers were not, or they were buried deep in the paper. Obviously that didn't work so they are covering it now. USA Today was one explicitly mentioned.

Several television networks also refused to air the Nightline episode with the names of the fallen being named because they didn't want to support anti-war campaigns. Newspaper owners color their publications in the same way (Sun vs Herald anyone?)

Khyron

Cyruss12
05-06-2004, 07:27 PM
Originally posted by Khyron


It was an MSN article about how initially while all the international press was covering it, many US papers were not, or they were buried deep in the paper. Obviously that didn't work so they are covering it now. USA Today was one explicitly mentioned.

Several television networks also refused to air the Nightline episode with the names of the fallen being named because they didn't want to support anti-war campaigns. Newspaper owners color their publications in the same way (Sun vs Herald anyone?)

Khyron

Well the reason the media didnt cover it from the get go, is cuz the white house was trying to cover it up, so that has nothing to do with the media, and the reason the didnt want to air the epiosde of nightline is because its election year and they didnt wanna make it seem like they were taking sides against bush, because the media is sposed to be neutral. not because it was an anti war campaigns.

pinoyhero
05-06-2004, 09:55 PM
US looking like idiots again!

Weapon_R
05-06-2004, 09:59 PM
Originally posted by Khyron
Those wires btw aren't hooked up to anything. It may not be torture IMO but it's abuse and it makes everyone involved look bad.

If I pulled a handgun and aimed it at you, would it make it less severe if it weren't loaded?

Khyron
05-06-2004, 10:20 PM
Originally posted by Weapon_R


If I pulled a handgun and aimed it at you, would it make it less severe if it weren't loaded?

No, but it's less severe than shooting through my hand and then my nuts.

Khyron

davidI
05-07-2004, 12:59 AM
Originally posted by 403Gemini


if you killed my family and then i beat the living fuck outta you, but you still lived, you could sue me. and yes you could win.

thats OUR society

I didn't say it was right for someone to take vigilante justice if someone else enters their territory. In our society, you're right -you could be sued if you used unreasonable force on someone even if they commited a crime against you. BUT, I think it's still completely different than going in to another country and torturing people without a quasijudicial hearing. How is acting out sexual acts beneficial in anything other than degrading the prisoners???

I can understand sleep deprivation etc. when in need of vital information but walking someone around on a leash or pissing on them isn't going to get you information. It's just displaying your 'power' on a prisoner. Congratulations, you're tough since you can beat a prisoner while he is tied up, unarmed and out numbered. :rolleyes:

Weapon_R
05-07-2004, 01:14 AM
Originally posted by Khyron


No, but it's less severe than shooting through my hand and then my nuts.

Khyron

If I pointed an unloaded gun at you, and threatened to shoot you if you didn't let my friends rape you, would my demands be less severe?

I think you get the point. Armed Robbery is still Armed Robbery if I do it with a loaded gun or an unloaded gun. Torture is still torture if I do it with an electrocution device, or if I pretend its an electrocution device. It doesn't make it any less severe or wrong.

403Gemini
05-07-2004, 01:48 AM
Originally posted by Weapon_R


If I pointed an unloaded gun at you, and threatened to shoot you if you didn't let my friends rape you, would my demands be less severe?

I think you get the point. Armed Robbery is still Armed Robbery if I do it with a loaded gun or an unloaded gun. Torture is still torture if I do it with an electrocution device, or if I pretend its an electrocution device. It doesn't make it any less severe or wrong.

actually if the gun isnt loaded, im pretty sure its not armed robbery

but dont hold me to that cause im not 100%.

and weapon_r, if you wanted to get some of your friends to rape me, they better be chicks, otherwise you better have bullets for that gun ;)

edit: and davidi, very good points :thumbsup:

Toma
05-07-2004, 09:19 AM
Just as I thought about the prisoners. According to the UN, "Almost all inmates are "security internees"- suspected of posing a threat to the coalition."

No trial, no official charges, just "suspects", and of couse, we know that to the US that means you just are a different race race and just breathed wrong.

Khyron
05-07-2004, 10:53 AM
Originally posted by Weapon_R
If I pointed an unloaded gun at you, and threatened to shoot you if you didn't let my friends rape you, would my demands be less severe?

That's assault, not torture.


Torture is still torture if I do it with an electrocution device, or if I pretend its an electrocution device. It doesn't make it any less severe or wrong.

Again, I'll take being threatened, stripped naked and humiliated over having Drano poured down my throat, then being gagged, then having one of my eyes removed with a soldering iron, then a few teeth ripped out with pliars, then fingers broken in a vise, then cut off with a machete to finally have my legs broken in 30 places with a hammer.

Yes, sematically they are both called torture, but if you don't think there's a severity difference between the 2 above, then I can't explain it any further.

Again, I'm not saying the Americans are right - but it's also not the same as what has been reportedly done in Germany, Vietnam, North Korea, China, Russian Gulags - or even by Sadam himself in that very prison. The problem is that the Americans were trying to show they were above all that, and they failed miserably.

Khyron

Weapon_R
05-07-2004, 11:32 AM
Originally posted by 403Gemini


actually if the gun isnt loaded, im pretty sure its not armed robbery



It is armed robbery, regardless of whether the gun is loaded or not. The point was to show that hooking up wires to someone's nutsack and then pissing on them or raping them with the threat to electrocute them if they didn't comply is no better than hooking up a real machine to them and demanding the same - apparently, it seems as though their actions were somehow less severe or less abhorrent because the machines weren't real -

nickyh
05-07-2004, 12:57 PM
Basically what it boils down to is this: people are sadistic by nature and given a position of power it will be abused.
The US should not be there - they started the war with Iraq without the ok from the UN.

People point fingers at the USA for torture - are they the only ones.... no, but they got caught. Remember the CDN soldiers and what they did in Somalia?

my 0.02

SinisterProbeGt
05-07-2004, 02:02 PM
http://www.ryano.net/iraq/img/3/368780.jpg

http://www.ryano.net/iraq/img/3/368828.jpg

koopkoop2
05-07-2004, 07:30 PM
Read the front page of the Herald today(May 7th). It was some dumb white trash girl that was doing it. They went to the trailer park to interview her parents and they couldnt understand why their daughter was in trouble.

SwitchBlade
05-07-2004, 08:31 PM
I cant fathom anyone doing something like that. First of all imagine being in the same situation. Obviously you are going to be scared of being in a jail. Not knowing if you are going to make it out alive or make it out period wouldnt be very heartwarming. Second of all could you look anyone in the eyes after what you did? Parents friends and relatives come to mind. I know i couldn't

I think its pathetic that after every war or war crime that we cant learn from our mistakes. I could not justify killing or hurting a ethnic group whether it was by a rock or a 1.5 megaton weapon. Its pretty demeaning when anyones soldiers are taking on tasks reminicent to hitlers army or any army for that matter. Obviously if you touch a hot stovetop you wont make the same mistake again. Sure it can happen again by accident, but to hurt another individual is pretty far out of someones way to be called a accident.

On the other side of the issue i can envision it being stressful and boring while serving ones duty. But by any means is it nessesary to hurt or demean another individual. No.

Donald Rummsfield said "honor is a soldiers middle name". I don't regret saying that those who have commenced these attriocities to humanity are not soldiers but rather cowards.

Toma
05-07-2004, 08:41 PM
She didn't do it all. They are just painting a face to try and shift balme away from the "management" and place it down on a hadfull of morons.

What happened to initial reports that the CIA was involved?? See, shifting of blame.

koopkoop2
05-07-2004, 09:27 PM
Why is she holding the leash then? You're saying the CIA framed her? From what I heard, the CIA wanted information and was ordered the soldiers to soften them up a bit. How do we know that this isn't a lie conjured up by the abusive soldiers?

I doubt the CIA would entrust a bunch of high school drop-outs to do something like that. Especially when the CIA could extract the info quicker using their own methods. If I was in that girl's shoes, I would probably use an excuse just like that.The girl knows she's in DEEEP shit now and needs something to blame.

Toma
05-07-2004, 11:19 PM
I said she didn't do it "ALL". AS in she didn't single handedly go from jail to jail, and didn't on her own kill 20+ prisoners. There were many more involved.....but she makes a great frame of reference.... "Look, it was an isolated incident carried out by a trailler dwelling skank." is what "they" are trying to accomplish.

Toma
05-07-2004, 11:24 PM
Here is a story of how the Red Cross saw a PATTERN of wide spread prisoner abuse for OVER a year. DEFFINATELY not isolated cases.....including murder. The US has so far admited to 25 deaths of inmates while in custody!!! If they admit to 25, the real number is at least 10x higher

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/3694521.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3684381.stm

kinda makes you sick eh?

Khyron
05-07-2004, 11:34 PM
and that soldiers fired on unarmed prisoners from watchtowers, killing some of them.

But what's the context? The prisoners could have been rioting or trying to escape. Same thing with the beating - maybe the prisoner attacked a guard? Or maybe he was doing nothing. We don't know, and unfortunately it matters.

There are certain rare cases where I approve of torture and there are definately cases where prisoners need public humiliation and beatings. (I'm even talking about our own prisons here, in Alberta, where they get cable TV and free take-out).

Khyron

JordanLotoski
05-07-2004, 11:43 PM
awwww poor them booo frickity hoooo....least there not getting killed..like some of the journalist that the iraqy army killed..or better yet what about the dead american solidiers they drag around town and people cheer....so again BOOOO HOOOO ..BOOOOOO HOOOOOOO

Cyruss12
05-07-2004, 11:49 PM
Originally posted by MIWYFSHOT
awwww poor them booo frickity hoooo....least there not getting killed..like some of the journalist that the iraqy army killed..or better yet what about the dead american solidiers they drag around town and people cheer....so again BOOOO HOOOO ..BOOOOOO HOOOOOOO

Right on :thumbsup:

davidI
05-08-2004, 12:20 AM
^^^ With that compassion I wonder why they don't want North American's in their country! :rolleyes:

Cyruss12
05-08-2004, 12:24 AM
Originally posted by davidI
^^^ With that compassion I wonder why they don't want North American's in their country! :rolleyes:

yes cuz we all know iraq's are big in the compasion field.

ehos
05-08-2004, 01:11 AM
It's an illegal war.

US actions are immoral and unjust. The torture is just the tip of the iceberg.

It's sickening how the US Foreign Policy has played out after WWII.

120 countries with a Military presence. Wow. What do they fear?

They make a pretense to attack, and go for it.

http://www.krysstal.com/democracy_whyusa02.html

Check out that link, it should open some eyes. Those of you who know history already know this.

george rizk
05-08-2004, 02:51 AM
i think everyone forgot something very important... the US will never leave IRAQ untill it (the US) suck all the oil out of IRAQ... but thats just what i think

Cyruss12
05-08-2004, 12:33 PM
Originally posted by george rizk
i think everyone forgot something very important... the US will never leave IRAQ untill it (the US) suck all the oil out of IRAQ... but thats just what i think

If The U.S wanted Iraqi oil that bad, we would have went over and taken it 15 years ago.

403Gemini
05-08-2004, 12:34 PM
Originally posted by davidI
^^^ With that compassion I wonder why they don't want North American's in their country! :rolleyes:


they dont want US soldiers there so they can go ahead and kill each other, crazy suicide bombing asses

Redlyne_mr2
05-08-2004, 12:40 PM
Originally posted by Cyruss12


yes cuz we all know iraq's are big in the compasion field.
Have you ever met someone from Iraq? They're probably some of the nicest people out there. So friendly and willing to do anything for you.


Originally posted by Cyruss12


If The U.S wanted Iraqi oil that bad, we would have went over and taken it 15 years ago.
Thats what the Gulf was for

Cyruss12
05-08-2004, 12:50 PM
Originally posted by Redlyne_mr2

Have you ever met someone from Iraq? They're probably some of the nicest people out there. So friendly and willing to do anything for you.


Thats what the Gulf was for

No i never met anyone from Iraq. All i do know is theres a huge difference between Taking embarassing pictures of someone and Killing non soldiers and people who were trying to help rebuild their citry, Burning and mutilating their bodies, dragging them through the streets, and hanging their bodies from bridges, and having 10 - 15 y/o's laughing and dancing while this is happening, so i dubt theyre nices people and willing to do anything for me.

and the gulf war was not for the oil, it was because sadam gassed like 30,000 people in the country next to him and was mass murdering his own people.

davidI
05-08-2004, 12:56 PM
Originally posted by Cyruss12


yes cuz we all know iraq's are big in the compasion field.

That's the worst stereotype I've ever heard. You're saying we should torture Iraqi's since they don't want Americans going there, killing their friends, rolling over their taxis with tanks and basically flexing their international muscle?

So, to use your way of thinking if I broke into your house and you didn't like it I should be justified to torture you since you don't like the fact I invaded your property and privacy?

:rolleyes:

Pull your head out of your ass before you respond.

ninjak84
05-08-2004, 02:22 PM
this is news?
this "abuse" has been going on for a LONG time. there's only so much attention now because the pics got out. the US gov't will make this go away, and nothing will change. media circus over for now. most people just saw the pictures, got a bit mad, and will forget about it by next month.

anyone who thinks the US will pay for this has zero concept of global power. the US is running the ship now. uncle sam will shit all over the middle east, and won't even leave them a toilet paper factory to clean it all up. it's a pretty sad state of affairs, but that's the situation right about now.


Originally posted by Redlyne_mr2
Have you ever met someone from Iraq? They're probably some of the nicest people out there. So friendly and willing to do anything for you.

you should go to iraq.
i'm not insinuating or suggesting anything, just saying you should go.

Cyruss12
05-08-2004, 05:05 PM
Originally posted by davidI


That's the worst stereotype I've ever heard. You're saying we should torture Iraqi's since they don't want Americans going there, killing their friends, rolling over their taxis with tanks and basically flexing their international muscle?

So, to use your way of thinking if I broke into your house and you didn't like it I should be justified to torture you since you don't like the fact I invaded your property and privacy?

:rolleyes:

Pull your head out of your ass before you respond.

Um thats not what i said at all, i dont agree with the torturing and i was responding to a different subject all together, so i dont know what you think your talking about.

88CRX
05-08-2004, 05:07 PM
karmas a bitch aint it

davidI
05-08-2004, 05:40 PM
Originally posted by Cyruss12


Um thats not what i said at all, i dont agree with the torturing and i was responding to a different subject all together, so i dont know what you think your talking about.

Then what are you talking about??? From your response to MIWYFSHOT it sounds a lot like you think torturing them is justified since a few journalists were killed? Maybe clarify what you mean because I don't see any other way your comments could be interpreted?

Cyruss12
05-08-2004, 05:44 PM
All i meant was everyone is making the iraqi people out to be saints, which theyre not. I wasnt trying to justify the torturing.

davidI
05-08-2004, 06:00 PM
Originally posted by Cyruss12
All i meant was everyone is making the iraqi people out to be saints, which theyre not. I wasnt trying to justify the torturing.

That's fair. Do you think the U.S. soldiers are saints?

Cyruss12
05-08-2004, 06:03 PM
Absolutley not, i think they should be punished for what they did.

koopkoop2
05-08-2004, 10:24 PM
Hoo boy. The shits hit the fan now. Another batch of photos and videos have been obtained but not yet released. These ones are even worse apparently. Rape and more abuse. I wonder if it's starring our favourite little girl Lynndie?

Weapon_R
05-09-2004, 05:51 AM
Originally posted by Cyruss12


and the gulf war was not for the oil, it was because sadam gassed like 30,000 people in the country next to him and was mass murdering his own people.

Oh yeah? Here's a little hinter - your information is wrong.

Find out when Saddam gassed the Kurds, and find out when the U.S. invaded. Preparation time, perhaps? Maybe. Find out how much the United States gave Saddam in military aid between the date he gassed the Kurds and the Gulf war. Perhaps that will help clarify things for you ;)

fast95pony
05-09-2004, 08:10 AM
I'd be interested to know what some of those U.S. "contractors" have been up to. Many ,like the 4 who were killed,are ex-navy Seals,Special Forces etc. They are highly trained soldiers who can operate outside the laws governing the U.S. Military.
They are highy paid too. I think the 4 that were killed and burned were targeted for something they did. The U.S. government said they were guarding food. I think they were up to something more sinister.


The U.S. claims the high moral ground.The Military have known about the poor treatment of prisoners for months,yet did nothing...until the pictures were broadcast.

Bush's Presidency has been one lie after another...

Here's an article about Blackwater,who the four men worked for :

http://thetruthseeker.co.uk/article.asp?ID=1677

davidI
05-09-2004, 10:25 AM
Originally posted by Weapon_R


Oh yeah? Here's a little hinter - your information is wrong.

Find out when Saddam gassed the Kurds, and find out when the U.S. invaded. Preparation time, perhaps? Maybe. Find out how much the United States gave Saddam in military aid between the date he gassed the Kurds and the Gulf war. Perhaps that will help clarify things for you ;)

So true. My girlfriend grew up in Saudi during the war and she had to sleep in a closet every night with a gas mask next to her. Cyruss is trying to tell me that the U.S. was not after oil yet, they wouldn't let any of the geologists leave Saudi because it would cause for a lapse in oil production. There were scuds falling all around my gf's family yet the U.S. did not feel this was a 'dangerous area.' I know this is a little different as it is about continuing production instead of securing reserves but I think it shows what the government cares about the most.

Toma
05-09-2004, 09:41 PM
Even more... torture, murder, and rapes. Funny of how a country of such "hihg morals" turns savage when it thinks no one is looking...

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/story.jsp?story=519724
-------------------------------------------
But even these chilling pictures may not be the end. The Pentagon now has other photos and videos in its possession, showing acts of rape and the desecration of a dead body, which it plans to show to various Congressmen shortly. That alone makes it likely they will become public knowledge.
------------------------------------------

koopkoop2
05-09-2004, 10:42 PM
Its not the entire U.S. Just that stupid girl and her boyfriend. Yes, I'm aware that there may have been intelligence agencies pressuring them to do these things. However, the part I dont understand is why would they take photos of them doing it with huge smiles and thumbs up.

Christ, it's like taking pictures at your mom's funeral with a big smile on your face and a thumbs up as you throw dirt into the grave. It would be strictly business, not something that you would take pictures of and definately not something you would laugh and smile about doing.

Weapon_R
05-09-2004, 11:08 PM
Originally posted by koopkoop2
Its not the entire U.S. Just that stupid girl and her boyfriend.

Just the two? Those two must have gotten a lot of mileage, being able to victimize prisoners in prisons throughout Iraq...

hjr
05-09-2004, 11:59 PM
Originally posted by koopkoop2
Its not the entire U.S. Just that stupid girl and her boyfriend. Yes, I'm aware that there may have been intelligence agencies pressuring them to do these things. However, the part I dont understand is why would they take photos of them doing it with huge smiles and thumbs up.

Christ, it's like taking pictures at your mom's funeral with a big smile on your face and a thumbs up as you throw dirt into the grave. It would be strictly business, not something that you would take pictures of and definately not something you would laugh and smile about doing. your feeding into the lie. The govt wants you to believe its isolated. But guess what, its not. More and more shit keeps poping up. The bad thing is that their aint shit we can do about it. Most people seem to be too stupid to see through "patriotic messages" aka propoganda. this means that it is quite possible bush will be back for 4 more years.

davidI
05-10-2004, 12:01 AM
Originally posted by hjr
your feeding into the lie. The govt wants you to believe its isolated. But guess what, its not. More and more shit keeps poping up. The bad thing is that their aint shit we can do about it. Most people seem to be too stupid to see through "patriotic messages" aka propoganda. this means that it is quite possible bush will be back for 4 more years.

Anyone hear about how Steve Moore's latest movie isn't going to be released in the U.S.???

Mirimax has distribution rights, Disney owns distribution, Jeb Bush pretty much owns disney with tax breaks so now it won't be released.

Toma
05-10-2004, 08:10 AM
A little article on the use of contractors or "mercenaries" in Iraq...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3699957.stm

Khyron
05-10-2004, 04:26 PM
And it's about to get worse - apparently:


According to knowledgeable sources, the images include an American soldier having sex with a female Iraqi detainee and American soldiers watching Iraqis have sex with juveniles. Another photo shows a female prison guard gloating over the body of a dead Iraqi.

That Egland chick needs a beating - looks like they're going to start doing some public court martials in Bagdad. I wouldn't mind seeing them use some Iraqi punishments.

Khyron

finboy
05-10-2004, 09:02 PM
just watched the news, apperantly the red cross released a report months before the photo's were taken saying many of the jails they visited were the same conditions. the report was given to the american government, yet nothing was done.

more news has also been found that cia and military OFFICIALS were pressuring lower army folk to take the pictures and perform the acts as "interogation material." in other words, using the actions to get the prisoners to talk, and using the pictures as threats to the other prisoners if they didn't talk.

and the families waiting outside the prison where the pictures/video were taken are still not being informed of the status of their family members being held captive.

way to go american government. :thumbsup:

Weapon_R
05-10-2004, 09:19 PM
Originally posted by Toma
A little article on the use of contractors or "mercenaries" in Iraq...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3699957.stm

So they weren't innocent civilians?

Toma
05-10-2004, 10:54 PM
Originally posted by Weapon_R


So they weren't innocent civilians?
LOL, imagine that. No of course not, these "security guards" are almost 100% highly trained ex special forces like SAS etc, playing by NO ONES rules.

Khyron
05-11-2004, 05:34 PM
They start generating sympathy, then this:


After reading a statement, the men were seen pulling the man to his side and putting a large knife to his neck. A scream sounded as the men cut his head off, shouting “Allahu Akbar!” — “God is great.” They then held the head out before the camera.

Berg’s family said Tuesday they knew their son had been decapitated, but didn’t know the details of the killing. When told of the video by an Associated Press reporter, Berg’s father, Michael, and his two siblings hugged and cried.

Animals.

Khyron

Toma
05-11-2004, 07:33 PM
LOL, sucks to be that guy ;) Too bad for him he was somewhere trying to make large bucks on someone elses suffering.

Don't wanna get killed in Iraq? Stay the fuck out of someone elses country AND where you are not wanted.

Though, I would not put it past the US to stage such a thing just to take some attention away from their war crimes :poosie:

Khyron
05-11-2004, 08:52 PM
And let the savages run the place? Good idea - let someone who cuts civilians heads off be in charge. But oooh, I suppose that's the same as taking naked pictures.

It's so funny - they were actually gaining support, and now it's gone.

Khyron

Toma
05-11-2004, 09:03 PM
When you bomb someone for 14 tears "back to the stone age", yeah, you are gonna get some savages. And I suppose they JUST LOVE American companies in there :thumbsup: Probably greeted then with red carpet.

Funny statistic...prior to the original US war crimes of George Sr. Iraq had a higher literacy rate then the good ol US :D

You bomb someone, kill their family, murder 500,000 of their children, yeah, I can see how they would be a little pissed and may be tempted to take it out on any one of "them" that they could.

A couple contarctors versus a million Iraqis? My heart bleeds for the greedy capitalists :rolleyes:

Khyron
05-11-2004, 10:10 PM
Originally posted by Toma A couple contarctors versus a million Iraqis? My heart bleeds for the greedy capitalists :rolleyes: [/B]

And Iraq was such a beach party under Saddam? Who built the jails and "deporable cells" the americans are using for their photo shoots? Who's sons were basically 1 man executioners above all laws. Hell even now the iraqi's in the prisons are more afraid of their own rape gangs than the american guards. For every Iraqi killed by an american, there were 10 killed by other Iraqis. Oh, and a minor invasion of another country might have had something to do with it?

Hilter was a good leader for his people, and Mussolini was good at scheduling trains. That doesn't veto their threat to the rest of the world.

Arguing about whether the US was right in attacking is the same as arguing whether the police can raid a crack house without a warrant. Technically wrong but kinda hard to feel bad about.

It's one thing to be objective and at least try to see other points of view - it's another to be a blind fanatic and just stamp your feet and say "USA IS BAD" and offer no better solution.

Khyron

rice_eater
05-11-2004, 10:20 PM
So where is everyone now that we saw that american get his head chopped off? WHere is the outcry,the outrage, the demands for justice, and all the complaining? SHouldn't we take actions, shouldn't we bring those people to justice no matter what? SHouldn't we rush out and support the family of that contractor? No we dont do that, we'd rather just yap all day how the states are the devil.

These are the people the US has gone in to remove. It's not just Sadam we need to get rid off, but all these sick fucks that will take any oportunity to pull off as sick an atrocity as they can. There is no comparison between humiliating someone and chopping their head off in cold blood. So i say fuck em all to hell:guns:

Weapon_R
05-11-2004, 11:13 PM
Why would there be outcry and rage? Once again, we seem to always forget these valid points:

1) Iraqi insurgents are regular citizens that want the U.S. OUT. They don't represent the Iraqi army, or the Iraqi government, past or present.

2) The actions committed by these insurgents does NOT give other people the right to commit the same kinds of disgusting actions. We pride ourselves on the ability to represent and lead the free world, the "civilized world". Does this mean that since there are some animals in another country that commit terrorist acts, that the U.S. soldiers are exonerated from any wrongdoing? Some people seem to think so.

3) The Americans are invaders, occupiers, terrorists themselves. Find me a count of the number of civilians killed since March 2003 and compare it with the 5 or so civilians that Iraqi insurgents have killed. Oh the outcry! They killed American elite soldiers (under the guise of citizens, of course) :eek: It's much less personal, and consequently less of an outcry, when the Americans kill entire families with a cruise missile, eh?

rice_eater
05-11-2004, 11:25 PM
Originally posted by Weapon_R
Why would there be outcry and rage? Once again, we seem to always forget these valid points:

1) Iraqi insurgents are regular citizens that want the U.S. OUT. They don't represent the Iraqi army, or the Iraqi government, past or present.

2) The actions committed by these insurgents does NOT give other people the right to commit the same kinds of disgusting actions. We pride ourselves on the ability to represent and lead the free world, the "civilized world". Does this mean that since there are some animals in another country that commit terrorist acts, that the U.S. soldiers are exonerated from any wrongdoing? Some people seem to think so.

3) The Americans are invaders, occupiers, terrorists themselves. Find me a count of the number of civilians killed since March 2003 and compare it with the 5 or so civilians that Iraqi insurgents have killed. Oh the outcry! They killed American elite soldiers (under the guise of citizens, of course) :eek: It's much less personal, and consequently less of an outcry, when the Americans kill entire families with a cruise missile, eh?

like i said before...in war shit like this happens on both sides! Either get off the US bashin bandwagon or be consistent and bash both sides. I dont give a fuck who that guy was, we see cases like these all the time but be shove them off just like you did. How could you not give a shit?? How is cutting someone's head off even remotely the same as humiliating a prisoner? These people went out of their way to display their pleasure in what they did. I'm not one bit sorry for any of these extremist fucks when they get ran over by the US army. FUCK EM