Old Kraut vs. newer Rice

[MidEngine]

For the ricers who posted in the 914 STi thread that the 914 is a POS that handles like crap, check out how one with 96,000 miles compares in acceleration and handling to Nippon mobiles that are 15 years newer.

http://www3.telus.net/public/alpine65/CandDpage45.jpg

http://www3.telus.net/public/alpine65/CandDpage46.jpg

[method]

bwahahah sweet.

[Orbie]

Just checking out the articles, I'm not sure where any arguments regarding the Porsche 914 vs. Japanese cars handling are made?

I see the acceleration numbers though and that is nice, but I can't derive anything about the superior handling of one vs. the other at all. So I'm not seeing what proves the ricers in the other thread are wrong. On the other hand their word of mouth isn't gospel either. Just thought I'd let you know though...

Doesn't matter in the end anyways, those people driving those CRX's, Fiero's, and MR2's are apparently driving at a similar level to that Porsche for loads less:

"It's handling was quirky, And it proved that even little Porsches could be expensive."

In a sense this thread is a compliment to those that have the aforementioned Japanese cars derived from the Porsche, cheaper and near Porsche performance.

Keep in mind that the name Porsche carries with it the labels of elite, flawless, performer and expensive. So by equating old Honda, Pontiac, and Toyota sports cars to this old Porsche only helps prove their (the ricers) point.

It is not surprising to note that a Porsche that is so old can hold it's own with cars that are 15 years newer. If anything, this shows that mundane cars affordable by the common person have improved greatly. It is expected for luxury performance cars to be way ahead of other cars at the time, would you pay loads of money for a Porsche when a car for the fraction of the price could compare in almost every way to it except for the exclusivity of the badge?

[Chevolvo]

Originally posted by Orbie
Just checking out the articles, I'm not sure where any arguments regarding the Porsche 914 vs. Japanese cars handling are made?

http://iesforums.org/skidpad.jpg

Skidpad was the only marker of handling performance they quantified, but the 15 year old 914 with stock (and probably worn out by this time) suspension gripped better than all 3 of the brand new cars tested, while the only car that beat it in acceleration was the V6 powered fiero. This isn't new vs new here either, it's new vs. almost 100K miles. I find it hard to believe that any of you would claim the MR2 or CRX Si were/are poor performers. This again on 15 year old suspension bits with used touring tires. A 914 with new shocks and struts, and good street 205/50/15's can pull ~1g on the skidpad. Not many cars can do that, Acura NSX, Corvette Z06, McLaren F1. All cars that handle poorly.:rolleyes:


Doesn't matter in the end anyways, those people driving those CRX's, Fiero's, and MR2's are apparently driving at a similar level to that Porsche for loads less:

It's handling was quirky, And it proved that even little Porsches could be expensive.

In a sense this thread is a compliment to those that have the aforementioned Japanese cars derived from the Porsche, cheaper and near Porsche performance.

What you're lacking here is historical context. The 914 was maligned in its time because of price, but it wasn't dramatically more expensive than its competitors, approximately 10% more expensive than cars such as the Spitfire, X1/9, 240z. Mainly the criticism around price springs from the fact that the car was billed and designed as an affordable car for young people but just quite didn't make it. The price tag for the '73 914 tested equates to US23,000(31,000CAD) in todays $$'s-- a price that's a little out of the reach of a first time car buyer fresh out of school, but not outrageous. However, when the tests were done, these cars were getting schooled by a 15 year old car costing 1/3 less. Even today the 914 represents a good bang-for-the-buck value compared with other sports cars.

As for the quirky handling, 914's handle differently from other cars because they're mid engine--not bad, just different. Their handling is no more quirky than an Acura NSX, Porsche Boxster, etc.



Keep in mind that the name Porsche carries with it the labels of elite, flawless, performer and expensive. So by equating old Honda, Pontiac, and Toyota sports cars to this old Porsche only helps prove their (the ricers) point.

It is not surprising to note that a Porsche that is so old can hold it's own with cars that are 15 years newer. If anything, this shows that mundane cars affordable by the common person have improved greatly. It is expected for luxury performance cars to be way ahead of other cars at the time, would you pay loads of money for a Porsche when a car for the fraction of the price could compare in almost every way to it except for the exclusivity of the badge?

You're changing the argument, and it's not really germane to the original (and incorrect) statements by your fellow forum goers that the 914 was a slow, ugly, ill-handling POS. It wasn't, not in its time, not 15 years ago, not now. The cars in the article weren't mundane economy cars, they were cars specifically designed to be sports or sporty cars putting up handling numbers rivaling or beating Corvettes of the era(oddly enough they all looked to the ill-handling, slow 914 for inspiration:rolleyes: ). Guess what? The slow, poor handling 914 bone stock beat them 15 years later. Guess what? the 914 with modern shocks and tires is still beating new sports cars in handling 30 years later. To address your point though, yes even economy cars are getting faster and faster, does that mean that a 16 year old M3 or 20 year old Ferrari is any less of an awesome car because a new Neon can beat them? Not in my book.

[MidEngine]

Lateral acceleration is one measure of a car's handling and at 0.84 g's on the skidpad, the 914 held on longer than any of the others. Also, by 1988, the 914 2.0 was just a fraction of the cost of the new CRX Si, MR2 and Fiero.

http://www.haleymotorsports.com/PSTPOR20.jpg

[ZorroAMG]

You 914 doods are getting quite annoying. Most of us don't care about rice-914POS comparisons, nor do we care about newer more expensive sports cars compared to 914POS's, nor would I give a crap about getting passed by one in a track event or otherwise. Bottom line guys is that just because there is a following, doesn't make it cool. Didn't David Koresh have a following too? Hmmm....

Now if you have any interest in partaking in other threads and being contributing members to this forum, great, nice to meet you. If, however, you plan to force your facts/fiction and BS about your precious car, like a Jehova's Witness does with religion, then you all can kindly go fuck yourselves.

[Por-cha]

Originally posted by ZorroAMG
You 914 doods are getting quite annoying. Most of us don't care about rice-914POS comparisons, nor do we care about newer more expensive sports cars compared to 914POS's, nor would I give a crap about getting passed by one in a track event or otherwise. Bottom line guys is that just because there is a following, doesn't make it cool. Didn't David Koresh have a following too? Hmmm....

Now if you have any interest in partaking in other threads and being contributing members to this forum, great, nice to meet you. If, however, you plan to force your facts/fiction and BS about your precious car, like a Jehova's Witness does with religion, then you all can kindly go fuck yourselves.



You just can't give it a rest can you Zorro.

Some of your members got caught bashing our cars, on an open forum and a whole club found out about it. If we or I offended anyone we apologize. I think we also deserve an apology.

Now, you can either be a man, shake hands and forget about it, or you can continue to be a child and get this thread locked as well.

We have a wealth of 25yrs. of racing/handling/performance info, that would be an asset to your site, but if you don't want it...ohhhh well.

[ZorroAMG]

Ok, maybe the last post was a bit harsh, and for THAT I apologize (for the last thread and my/our defense I do not). FWIW the first sentence was an effort to keep the bashing going, so WHO should really give it a rest? Like I said in the above mentioned post, we would like you all to be contributing members here on our forum, just don't post only in defense or the 914, that will get tired FAST. Many of the members on this site also have years of racing experience, many don't. Some drive rice mobiles, MOST don't. This forum exists to bring car enthusiasts together to discuss what they like, dislike and laugh about in the automotive world. Don't hate on us because people don't like your 914, some like it, some hate it, such is life.

I posted something I thought was fact, in a form of a question, got told pretty much to STFU and saw a bunch of little followers from your site gang up on that thread, so YEAH I defended us, we are mostly males (on all car forums) and that is what we do.

Make your choice: continue to call me a child with your ignorant behaviour enveloping your group like a stench, or be men yourselves.

[hjr]

there is nothing wrong with 914's. nothing. some folks dig em, some dont. different strokes for different folks. I personally think they are the ugliest porsche made so far. My opinion.

Also, i think in VW trim (vw motor) they truly suck. nothing to get excited about. In proper porsche trim they are nimble little track stars which no one can deny but making all these stupid comparisons doesnt help your case.

So we can all agree to disagree about the porsche 914 then. sounds good.

[MidEngine]

Originally posted by hjr
Also, i think in VW trim (vw motor) they truly suck. nothing to get excited about.

What is your experience with 914s? Ever driven one? Just repeating what you heard?

[Por-cha]

Originally posted by ZorroAMG
I posted something I thought was fact, in a form of a question, got told pretty much to STFU....

I took it as statement, (which I think your admiting to...could be wrong...) even if you did put a ? mark with it. My response was BS which it was.



Hey Shit stain, That is why I posed it in the form of a question. How's your GED coming, need a tutor for the punctuation part?


That's when you got the STFU pic. Am I the one that's suppose to just roll over and take it. What goes around, comes around. If you into half-apologies I guess I won't say I'm sorry about that one, just to be fair.
(Oh, not to be picky but your spelling and grammar isn't 100% as well.)


just don't post only in defense or the 914, that will get tired FAST.

I bet if I posted "all MB's are POS" you would chime in PDQ.


Now, hjr, can I ask your age? What's your ride?
I only ask because 962 kid is a 15yr old and I'm guessing you're about the same age. Just a guess mind you, I'm not meaning to offend.

[ZorroAMG]

Go away 914 guys, you bore us.

[Por-cha]

Nah... I think I'll stick around a bit....

hjr, is that your kombi? I have a 67 micro.

[hjr]

Originally posted by Por-cha

Now, hjr, can I ask your age? What's your ride?
I only ask because 962 kid is a 15yr old and I'm guessing you're about the same age. Just a guess mind you, I'm not meaning to offend. ya, im not 15. far from it. I thought my post was pretty level headed, as in not high school drama. Oh well.


Originally posted by Por-cha
hjr, is that your kombi? I have a 67 micro. My bus is a 59. Not running quite right at this time (charging problems, i need to get the dash light wired in as it completes the circut i hear)

[M_Power]

Don't be a prick about it por=cha, just realize that there are alot of different cars out there that are special to ppl for one reason or another, and just because one group may not like that particular car doesn't mean that you have to jump down their throat and ruin a good forum. Im not mad, I would just like the 914 guys to become contributing members and not pests..

[MidEngine]

Originally posted by ZorroAMG
Go away 914 guys, you bore us.

ZorroAMG,

Our 914s only weigh about 2200 lbs and since they are mid-engined they have a low polar moment of inertia which means that they change direction quickly and are very responsive on narrow twisty roads. What would you say your car's forte is? I like MB sedans but I can't figure out what you use yours for. What's it weigh - around 4000 lbs with a two valve per cylinder straight six?

[M_Power]

Originally posted by MidEngine


ZorroAMG,

Our 914s only weigh about 2200 lbs and since they are mid-engined they have a low polar moment of inertia which means that they change direction quickly and are very responsive on narrow twisty roads. What would you say your car's forte is? I like MB sedans but I can't figure out what you use yours for. What's it weigh - around 4000 lbs with a two valve per cylinder straight six?
K SERIOUSLY let it go, they are totally different cars!! if i read one more 914 stat im gonna shoot myself..

:banghead:

[MidEngine]

Right, one's a sports car from the factory and the other's a mid-level luxury sedan that he's slammed and put wheels on. What's the point except maybe posing? :dunno:

[three.eighteen.]

Originally posted by MidEngine
Right, one's a sports car from the factory and the other's a mid-level luxury sedan that he's slammed and put wheels on. What's the point except maybe posing? :dunno:

you can dish it but you cant seem to take it...wtf is wrong with you?

[Por-cha]

Originally posted by hjr
My bus is a 59. Not running quite right at this time (charging problems, i need to get the dash light wired in as it completes the circut i hear)

Nope, unless it's the wiring it will be the regualtor or the brushes. Is it still a 6V?

[hjr]

nope, 12v. im using a 1600cc dual port in the stock tranny with a 12v starter. I had a 69 deluxe that i stripped down for 12v parts. I really am under the impression that on the 12v charging system the dash light must be operating, just from what i have heard.

[ZorroAMG]

Well Mid-Engine, if you really want me to get into it, my car is a mid-high level (thank you very much :D) cruising sedan that is built for long duration, high speed cruising in comfort and style. To say I simply slammed it with wheels to pose is about as stupid as saying the 914 is a good looking car.(Like cheap shots? There's one for you.) I have a plethora of modifications done to it to attain a unique look that compliments my personal style, sets it apart from other W124's and makes it handle twice as good as from the factory. (My mod list can be made available if you are genuinely interested, which I doubt you are)

My goal as a car enthusiast is not to buy a car that no one likes in an attempt to prove them wrong, to have the fastest AutoX car or to have the best 1/4 mile, it is to own, drive and mod a car that I enjoy as a daily driver, not just a track car to impress the macho penile-challenged dorks at the track.

So as my Beyond bretheren have put it, LET IT GO, you are not impressing anyone.

[el_fefes]

^:werd: different cars have different purposes (besides driving) Zorro's benz as he mentioned is for daily driving. He added some style to make it stand out and look better, and at that he was very successful, that car looks awesome. The 914's you guys own are perhaps meant to be driven at the track, and at that they are very successful since they handle very good and what not. Their purpose wasn't to look good, and zorro's car wasn't built to go on the track. All cars are different, they all have their pro's and con's.

It looks like you guys know a lot about cars and should be great contributors to this forum. Welcome, and share your knowledge even is someone is asking about a Honda:thumbsup:

[Por-cha]

hjr, I don't think so, but who knows.:dunno:
If you PM me I'll send you some hi-res scans of a 59 factory wiring diagram.


Mid-engine and zorro:whocares: grow-up both of you, your both sounding like total dicks. It's old...it's over.

[4CylFiero]

Those skidpad results about the Fiero are BS, 4 cylinder fieros in 1984 handle 0.83g, 88 fieros are reconized usually for 0.86 or 0.88g. A fiero was created to be a commuter car (ie fuel effiency and sunday cruiser) people were not satisfied with this so pontiac introduced a V-6. The breaking results are from 84 as well, 88 fieros had redesigned breaks.

[Redlyne_mr2]

I love the 914s, ugrade the suspension and tires and you have one hell of an autocross car, you don't have to wait for power like you do with the 1st gen mr2

[method]

yeah fieros are great

until they light on fire.

[Por-cha]

Originally posted by Redlyne_mr2
I love the 914s, ugrade the suspension and tires and you have one hell of an autocross car, you don't have to wait for power like you do with the 1st gen mr2

Upgrade is a must! they came with 165/15 bug tires and wimpy boge shocks from the factory. I have 195/65-15 and Bilstiens on it now, plus a sway bar. Thinking about 205's but I "might" do the bling thing and put 16 or 17" wheels on it.
I'm also building a big /4 should get me around 160-180hp. I could do a /6 but it would be about 3X the price for a 3.2

My buddy has an MR2 and I like it. I tried to talk the wife into a 944 as a daily driver, but with two little kids she wasn't going for it.:dunno:
She wants a soccer mom type SUV for her next car.

[Orbie]

Skidpad was the only marker of handling performance they quantified, but the 15 year old 914 with stock (and probably worn out by this time) suspension gripped better than all 3 of the brand new cars tested, while the only car that beat it in acceleration was the V6 powered fiero. This isn't new vs new here either, it's new vs. almost 100K miles. I find it hard to believe that any of you would claim the MR2 or CRX Si were/are poor performers. This again on 15 year old suspension bits with used touring tires. A 914 with new shocks and struts, and good street 205/50/15's can pull ~1g on the skidpad. Not many cars can do that, Acura NSX, Corvette Z06, McLaren F1. All cars that handle poorly.:rolleyes:

Thanks for the civility of your response. I saw the skidpad number but I didn't see any skidpad numbers for the other three cars so I couldn't conclude a comparison. If they are in the article and I missed them, I apologize. Either way skidpad is nice but what I was looking for was some sort of track times or numbers, a true test of handling. I didn't see anything in that context so like I said before, I couldn't see where this article was proving your statements about killing the other three japanese cars. I don't think anyone would say that the MR2 and CRX handle too shabby, but only because you have to consider the niche of the specific car. Again nothing is surprising me here because a Porsche is one thing but a CRX, MR2 and Fiero are still commuters directed at a completely different market then any Porsche. If you were to say to me that an old Porsche is a good performer, I would not be surprised in the least. But back then to say that those import cars could post numbers like they do, that would catch my eye. And that is the reason why they have the reputation they do in the import world. Also as stock performance on these cars is respectable, the potential performance by putting in sportier tires and suspension is huge.



What you're lacking here is historical context. The 914 was maligned in its time because of price, but it wasn't dramatically more expensive than its competitors, approximately 10% more expensive than cars such as the Spitfire, X1/9, 240z. Mainly the criticism around price springs from the fact that the car was billed and designed as an affordable car for young people but just quite didn't make it. The price tag for the '73 914 tested equates to US23,000(31,000CAD) in todays $$'s-- a price that's a little out of the reach of a first time car buyer fresh out of school, but not outrageous. However, when the tests were done, these cars were getting schooled by a 15 year old car costing 1/3 less. Even today the 914 represents a good bang-for-the-buck value compared with other sports cars.


Yes, I appreciate you noting the historical context. As you are obviously a Porsche 914 enthusiast, I will trust your word to be the truth. I however, don't see where the japanese cars are getting "schooled" by the 914 in the articles at all. The acceleration numbers are very similar and I don't think skidpad is a measurement of how much one car can "school" another. To me, by reading these articles I draw the conclusion that they are all just very similar cars in performance.



As for the quirky handling, 914's handle differently from other cars because they're mid engine--not bad, just different. Their handling is no more quirky than an Acura NSX, Porsche Boxster, etc.


Even though you are undoubtedly very knowledgeable about 914's, I don't think you could possibly know what the author meant by "quicky handling"...unless of course you are a close friend and conversed with the author about the article. The MR2 is also mid engine but I don't read anything about it being a "quirky handler", so I don't think that is what he/she meant.



You're changing the argument, and it's not really germane to the original (and incorrect) statements by your fellow forum goers that the 914 was a slow, ugly, ill-handling POS. It wasn't, not in its time, not 15 years ago, not now. The cars in the article weren't mundane economy cars, they were cars specifically designed to be sports or sporty cars putting up handling numbers rivaling or beating Corvettes of the era(oddly enough they all looked to the ill-handling, slow 914 for inspiration:rolleyes: ). Guess what? The slow, poor handling 914 bone stock beat them 15 years later. Guess what? the 914 with modern shocks and tires is still beating new sports cars in handling 30 years later. To address your point though, yes even economy cars are getting faster and faster, does that mean that a 16 year old M3 or 20 year old Ferrari is any less of an awesome car because a new Neon can beat them? Not in my book.

The cars in the article are sporty economy cars that are no where near aimed at the same segment as any Porsche. To say they beat Corvettes of the time only shows how good these companies did their jobs at producing these sporty common man cars. Just to note, I don't think the 914 is a slouchy handler or performer, so I won't comment about why other Beyond members might have mentioned this. In my book yes, a 16 year old M3 or a 20 year old Ferrari are not as awesome as they used to be solely due to the fact that their performance isn't as great compared to the common cat as it used to be. This is solely a matter of opinion though so I digress.

My argument is simply that I don't see where your coming to your conclusions about the 4 cars using the articles you have posted. And by reading your supporting evidence, I see nothing surprising or anything that should impress me into believing the 914 "schools" these other cars as you say. Just to make clear where I am coming from though, I have no idea what has been going on between you 914 guys and the other Beyond members. This is the first thread I have read regarding this topic, I had some questions regarding your arguments so I thought I would post my thoughts. I don't care one way or another which of any of these cars handles or performs better. I'm just looking for the facts to support an argument. Perhaps you have some other articles or sources that could prove what your saying, if so, I would definitely invite you to post them. I'm neither on your side or anyone else's, but this thread has peaked my interest and I would like to know truth.

[Chevolvo]

Originally posted by 4CylFiero
Those skidpad results about the Fiero are BS, 4 cylinder fieros in 1984 handle 0.83g, 88 fieros are reconized usually for 0.86 or 0.88g. A fiero was created to be a commuter car (ie fuel effiency and sunday cruiser) people were not satisfied with this so pontiac introduced a V-6. The breaking results are from 84 as well, 88 fieros had redesigned breaks.

I don't think C&D copied results from previous tests, however with any measurement of this type, there are a lot of variables. Ambient temperature, track surface, track temperature, etc etc. Can a Fiero put up better numbers? It's entirely possible. Do I beleieve that these numbers are accurate for an 1988 MR2, CRX, Fiero, and 914? Yes. These sorts of tests give a ballpark, but cannot be compared directly with other results unless they were taken same day, same place, same time.

[4CylFiero]

Originally posted by method
yeah fieros are great

until they light on fire.


Have you ever seen one start on fire, It's a misconception about all fieros, they put teh wirig harness right above the exhaust manifold in an 84 fiero, this melted from long driving causing fires, If it wasn't that it was the engine, They only held 3 quarts of oil, they would shoot a rod out of the block adn spill oil all over the exhaust manifold. All of these problems where recalled Within 6 months of production. 85-88 have no more of a chance of starting on fire then any car in 2003. Mine is 20 years old and it has never started on fire on me :)

But if you look under my dash there is a mysterious button under there, mayeb just maybe that starts fires

[Chevolvo]

Originally posted by Orbie


Thanks for the civility of your response. I saw the skidpad number but I didn't see any skidpad numbers for the other three cars so I couldn't conclude a comparison. If they are in the article and I missed them, I apologize. Either way skidpad is nice but what I was looking for was some sort of track times or numbers, a true test of handling.

Right, skidpad is a measure of steady state cornering--grip, and doesn't translate directly into handling, but it is an indicator. From the article, skidpad performance best to worst:
Porsche 914 .84g
Fiero .83g
MR2 .81g
CRX .79g



I didn't see anything in that context so like I said before, I couldn't see where this article was proving your statements about killing the other three japanese cars.
They weren't my statements actually. I don't think anything got killed here, but the 914 did represent itself rather nicely.


I don't think anyone would say that the MR2 and CRX handle too shabby, but only because you have to consider the niche of the specific car. Again nothing is surprising me here because a Porsche is one thing but a CRX, MR2 and Fiero are still commuters directed at a completely different market then any Porsche.
Back to historical conetext which I don't expect you to be familiar with. The 914 was codesigned by VW and Porsche to be an entry level sports/sporty car. VW was looking for a Karmann Ghia replacement, Porsche for a cheaper car to get people started down the path to 911 ownership. Because of some dealings gone awry, Porsche ended up paying a bit more for the bodies and hence final price was a bit above standard for sports economy. However, this was its classification and niche. Period advertising emphasised its handling, affordability, and economy. Not altogether too different from CRX/MR2/Fiero advertising I'd bet, because these cars are spiritual successors.
If you were to say to me that an old Porsche is a good performer, I would not be surprised in the least.
By saying that it's no surprise that the 914 beats 15 year old newer cars designed with the same goals indicates that you have a high opinion of Porsche and their engineering abilities, we Porsche nuts thank you. :).


But back then to say that those import cars could post numbers like they do, that would catch my eye. And that is the reason why they have the reputation they do in the import world.
Also as stock performance on these cars is respectable, the potential performance by putting in sportier tires and suspension is huge.
So 15 years earlier than that should be even more impressive, right? 914s with stock 165/78/15 tires and stock suspensions pulled .81g (equal to the MR2) back in 1973 according to C&D. Like I said, they're still kicking ass. Want to see what a 914 with typical suspension upgrades and modern performance tires can do? G-Force Challenge (http://www.importtuner.com/features/0111it_gforcepromo/)
The 914 put down .985gs, and beat out a modified Type-R, Del Sol, Cosworth RS, and WRX to take 4th behind a 700hp Supra, 200hp tube frame beetle, and a tuned FD RX-7 TT all running the same tire compound. Slalom times were only bested by the RX-7.



I however, don't see where the japanese cars are getting "schooled" by the 914 in the articles at all. The acceleration numbers are very similar and I don't think skidpad is a measurement of how much one car can "school" another. To me, by reading these articles I draw the conclusion that they are all just very similar cars in performance.
From your perspective I can agree. The 914 performed better, It's only when you consider the fact that these cars are 15 years newer and designed to beat the 914 that you could consider it a schooling. Like Michael Jordan coming out of retirement to show some new recruits how to respect their elders.



Even though you are undoubtedly very knowledgeable about 914's, I don't think you could possibly know what the author meant by "quicky handling"...unless of course you are a close friend and conversed with the author about the article. The MR2 is also mid engine but I don't read anything about it being a "quirky handler", so I don't think that is what he/she meant.

No obviously one cannot know precisely what the author intended with this statement, however the author wasn't writing this based on his experiences in 1988, but summarizing contemporary (1973) criticisms of the 914. Since the 914 was the first mainstream, entry level mid-engined car, much was made of the quirky handling. In 1988 mid-engined handling was nothing new, with cars such as the MR2, Fiero, X19 becoming more mainstream and thus less "quirky". Regardless of his intentions, quirky doesn't mean bad, but different. Mid-engined cars are quirky, they handle great, instilling confidence past the limits for other configurations, but when they reach the edge of their handling they bite you in the ass much harder.



Just to make clear where I am coming from though, I have no idea what has been going on between you 914 guys and the other Beyond members. This is the first thread I have read regarding this topic, I had some questions regarding your arguments so I thought I would post my thoughts.

Well, mostly a lot of name calling and swearing. But this thread is really a response thread to a previous one where the 914 was maligned for being --even in its time-- slow, ugly, and poor-handling. That 15 years later a 914 still beat every car it was put up against, proves this is incorrect, IMHO. I don't really care what anyone's personal opinion is about the 914, but if someone's going to have an opinion I'd like it to be based on facts. I can appreciate where you're coming from with a "what have you done for me lately" attitude about performance. I hope that you see that the 914 can still do a lot and hold its own or best even some of today's best handling cars.

*EDIT* Oh yeah, and I translated some guys JDM parts instructions, so I guess I'm a contributing member now.;)

[Por-cha]

Originally posted by Chevolvo
Oh yeah, and I translated some guys JDM parts instructions, so I guess I'm a contributing member now.;)

I sent a dood some wiring diagrams so I'm a contributing member now too! :D

[legendboy]

I've always like the 914 VW. I have been keeping my eyes open for a decient one to restore for a couple years now.



Originally posted by ZorroAMG
Go away 914 guys, you bore us.


lol I think 914's are alot more intresting to talk about than old, slow and boring "E Class Benzos"



Originally posted by ZorroAMG
my car is a mid-high level (thank you very much ) cruising sedan that is built for long duration, high speed cruising in comfort and style.

Ya maybe 20 years ago :rofl: and i don't think the mighty 300E was ever meant as a "high speed cruiser" or any bit a performance/sport luxury oriented car. Mercedes built a V8 E for that.

[ZorroAMG]

Yeah, more like 10 years ago, but thanks for coming out, ignoramus. BTW what would you know about high speed cruising anyway, you drive a honda integra. Boosted or not, it is NO WHERE near as stable as my car at speed. Where did I say it was a performance sedan in my post? If you want me to teach you how to read, just ask. You are correct in ONE point out of 3 in that the V8 version (400E and 500E) were the performance ones, but just like your POS econobox car, you made it a better, faster POS econobox, and I made my "NON-Performing Old Slow and boring " sedan handle and look better.

Try again, funny kid.

BTW sorry for hijacking the ever so entertaining 914 thread, but it had to be done. :)

[rage2]

Just a reminder, please keep it civilized. That means you too ZorroAMG. Don't wanna close this one down.

[legendboy]

Originally posted by ZorroAMG
Yeah, more like 10 years ago, but thanks for coming out, ignoramus.

Doh! Typing mistake!



Originally posted by ZorroAMG
Where did I say it was a performance sedan in my post? If you want me to teach you how to read, just ask.


Originally posted by ZorroAMG
if you really want me to get into it, my car is a mid-high level cruising sedan that is built for long duration, high speed cruising in comfort and style. I have a plethora of modifications ... and makes it handle twice as good as from the factory. (My mod list can be made available if you are genuinely interested, which I doubt you are)

:dunno: Sounds like you were trying to say something ??? :rolleyes:



Originally posted by ZorroAMG
You are correct in ONE point out of 3 in that the V8 version (400E and 500E) were the performance ones.

No need to tell me I'm right :)



Originally posted by ZorroAMG
Try again, funny kid.

ZorroAMG Birthday December 1, 1977
Legendboy Birthday October 20, 1978

http://www.telusplanet.net/public/legend88/Smiles/eyebrow.gif

[ZorroAMG]

You're right, my car new was worth almost 3 times as much as yours new, therefore there is no way it is a mid-hi level sedan. :rolleyes: Make a vaild point BESIDES birthdays Legendboy and maybe you could actually keep challenging me, otherwise let it go...you can't win.

[legendboy]

Originally posted by ZorroAMG
You're right, my car new was worth almost 3 times as much as yours new, therefore there is no way it is a mid-hi level sedan. :rolleyes: Make a vaild point BESIDES birthdays Legendboy and maybe you could actually keep challenging me, otherwise let it go...you can't win.

wtf??? I never said it wasn't a "mid-hi level sedan" I said it wasn't at all "performance oriented". Man, I know all about the old crapy benz's! I use work at Lonestar for christ sake! haha.

I'm not sure how these web conversations turn into some kind of a competition or "challenge" to you but this is definatly not something I think I "can win" lol I'm mearly stating my opinion.

And my opnion is that 914's are more intresting than old mercedes benz's

:zzz:

[ZorroAMG]

How you could work at Lone Star and still be so ignorant is beyond me, but regardless, I am done with you too.

You are right there is NO competition between us, Legendboy.;)

[Ben]

I'll be th first to admit I never followed the 914's very indepth due to my love for 911's, however I always thought they had more power than that. I currently drive a MK2 VW GTI with a built 2.0L 16V and upgraded F+R Swaybars and I went for a rip with a friend of mine who has a 914 and I absolutly destroyed him in the corners, on the straights, and off the line. He was convinced his car ruled all and was unbeatable by my "lesser" volkswagen. Needless to say He bought lunch. Though I can see that they would make a great ride with the proper updating and upgrading, I'm not 100% sold on the car its self, as they just seem cheap to me...

If I had one I'd throw some BBS wheels on it, Paint it black and turbocharge the sucker.

[legendboy]

Originally posted by ZorroAMG
How you could work at Lone Star and still be so ignorant is beyond me, but regardless, I am done with you too.

You are right there is NO competition between us, Legendboy.;)


Arrogance is not a virtue ZorroAMG. Maybe when you grow up a little you will learn that.

[Weapon_R]

Psst...I think this thread is about the Porsche 914 ;)

[tat2dphreak]

anyone who totally dismisses the capability of a 914, should take a ride in one...

I am fine with some people not liking them, hell, I hate a lot of cars... but I realize some people like these cars for what they are... but to totally dismiss a car without giving it it's due, is just ignorant... personal preference is one thing, being closed minded is something totally different...

the 914 has great virtues and some shortcomings... as do all cars

IMO:anything newer than 1980 has a 90% chance of being an "appliance" more than a car ...

[MidEngine]

Originally posted by Chevolvo
The 914 was codesigned by VW and Porsche to be an entry level sports/sporty car.


Actually, the 914 was completely designed by Porsche (check out the last paragraph in the article below). In fact, I believe that one of the engineers (Piech) mentioned in the second article had a big hand in designing Porsche's all-conquering 917s.

http://www3.telus.net/public/alpine65/UP21.jpg


http://www3.telus.net/public/alpine65/UP6.jpg

[rage2]

Alright, Zorro, legendboy, take it to PM. Now, lemme try to steer this back onto topic...

I've only driven a 914 once. I was disappointed with the stock one that I drove. I found it to be spongy near the limit... not as crisp as I thought it would be. A better way to put it, it understeered towards the limit, and took a heavy dose of lift throttle to get some light oversteer. Not a balanced car, understeer everywhere. I had no trouble in finding balance with other Mid engine cars that I've driven, Acura NSXs, Toyota MR2s, Ferrari 355's. Maybe that's just my personal taste on what defines good handling, or maybe I drove a bad condition 914.

It was interesting and disappointing to see the anti-honda comments from the other thread. Shows that both sides can be a bit ignorant :). IMO a stock honda doesn't handle well, much like a stock 914. But with basic suspension mods, they can be frighteningly fast on the track. I've seen a mildly modded Civic absolutely rape everything (including a Pilot Cup shod Z06) around the corners. ( http://forums.beyond.ca/showthread.php?threadid=18028 ). I have GPS and G-force telemetry data to show for it too. Of course, a well sorted 914 would be pretty quick as well, with the right suspension setup and tires.

If we're talking mods, a LOT of cars that suck stock can be sorted out to be very fast. At our local autox's, a few cars consistently pulled FTD's (fastest raw time):

2003
03 Mercedes-Benz SLK 32
93 Toyota MR2 Turbo
92 Ford Mustang LX
87 Honda Civic

2002
94 Eagle Talon
87 Toyota Corolla
86 Chevrolet Corvette

Would you ever think this list of cars would be top handling cars? Of course not... the point is, pretty much any car can be made to handle good with the right suspension tweaks, in the hands of the right driver.

[Chevolvo]

Originally posted by MidEngine
[B] Actually, the 914 was completely designed by Porsche (check out the last paragraph in the article below).

You're right, of course, I wasn't intending to adress the issue of actual engineering, but more the conception of the 914 as an idea. Bad word choice on my part, probably the better word would be co-developed. Here's another shot, aiming for precision in phrasing.

"The 914 was developed as the result of a joint venture between Volkswagen and Porsche. For Volkswagen the 914 was intended to serve as an sporty economy model, replacing the Karmann Ghia. For Porsche, the 914 was seen as an entry level sports car, serving as a gateway to future ownership of the 911. "

Better? :)