Programming...

[skc435]

I'm going to start and learn programming, I would pay someone if they would tutor me or help me learn it.

[Davetronz]

Might wanna be more specific. There are hundreds of languages out there :thumbsup:

[skc435]

Oh, sorry I meant to include that, I want to learn C++

[crazydriver]

i'm currently learning gr12 C++, if u live near me i'll be interested in teaching u the basics, but thats all i have to offer, i can't really teach u the advance stuff cuz i don't really know it either, pm me or something if your interested

[bart]

who cares what language, a for loop is a for loop...

[redec]

Originally posted by bart
who cares what language, a for loop is a for loop...

hahah...you're obiously not a programmer...C++ owns, nothing can compare...c# is pretty sweet too tho

[Orbie]

Originally posted by redec


hahah...you're obiously not a programmer...C++ owns, nothing can compare...c# is pretty sweet too tho

for loop is a for loop lol! Try a for loop in COBOL and then tell me who cares what language! or better yet Intel x86 or Motorola 680x0.

I'm also a big fan of C++, it's my favorite language, but I'm also a big fan of C. Nothing beats the low-end power of C. I wasn't as amazed with C#, it's very easy to use, but so is Java with which it is very similar. IMO all OO languages are very similar and easy to learn once one knows any one.

[redec]

Originally posted by Orbie

Nothing beats the low-end power of C.

bah...C++ has all the power of C, plus a whole lot more....if you really want to get technical nothing beats the low-end power of asm :)


Originally posted by Orbie

I wasn't as amazed with C#, it's very easy to use, but so is Java with which it is very similar.

C# is way above and beyond Java...they can't even be compared imho....the only thing similar between them is they are both OO, and they are both portable in their binary form.....they would be comparable if
a) Java had any support for any kind of decent RAD GUI development.
b) Java had JIT
c) Java had a host of components in it's framework somewhere approaching the scale of .NET.

Java has nothing on .NET

[redec]

ooooh....just did a search and I guess JIT is available for Java....at least on solaris http://wwws.sun.com/software/solaris/jit/....not natively supported tho

[roopi]

Originally posted by bart
who cares what language, a for loop is a for loop...

A better way to say that would be the concepts are the same, however the syntax is different. :dunno:

Everything I did in school was C/C++ or Java. My job now is all .NET and it was pretty easy to pick up. I figure because the concepts behind most languagues are similar so make sure you understand them.

[sputnik]

you are better off learning a TYPE of programming... languages are just syntactical changes...

- machine language programming (x86, MIPS)
- structured programming (C, Pascal, Cobol)
- object oriented programming (Java, C++)
- event driven programming (VB)
- scripting (Perl, PHP)

it would be best to determine what kind of programming you want to do as well (games, web programming, application programming etc)

[Davetronz]

Originally posted by sputnik
you are better off learning a TYPE of programming... languages are just syntactical changes...

- machine language programming (x86, MIPS)
- structured programming (C, Pascal, Cobol)
- object oriented programming (Java, C++)
- event driven programming (VB)
- scripting (Perl, PHP)

it would be best to determine what kind of programming you want to do as well (games, web programming, application programming etc)

Well said, very well said.

[Orbie]

Originally posted by redec
ooooh....just did a search and I guess JIT is available for Java....at least on solaris http://wwws.sun.com/software/solaris/jit/....not natively supported tho

lol, I was just about to say...

Well, if I really wanted to get technical I would have stated my love for x86 or Motorola. Nothing beats the low-end power of native machine code lol! But my point with C was that it offers the low end power plus user-friendlyness. I'd invite you to write an IR microcontroller using x86 or 8051 assembly compared to C and you'll know what I mean (on a compatible microprocessor of course:thumbsup: )

[nosegrindR]

SPARC Assembly!!!!
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[E36M3]

Strange how people get into one technology and then berate another without proper knowledge.

Type JAVA RAD into Google:

a) 314,000 results. You might be able to find a decent one in there somewhere methinks, but since you haven't specified any criteria, it would be impossible for me to point you to one (there are many great ones out there IMO)

b) You already looked apparently and found at least one (hint: there are more out there)

c) Which framework are you talking about? I think that Java has at least as many if not more components available, although with as vague of a statement as this, it is hard to react.

This is a useless message, but Java and .NET are a lot more alike then they are different, and Java has a lot going for it that .NET doesn't:

a) It isn't made by Microsoft, and therefor runs on operating systems other than Microsoft. This might not be a big deal now, but just wait till DRM becomes a bigger issue.
b) It runs on hardware other than x86 based, windows compatible stuff. This is already a big deal when scaling huge applications (mitigated a bit by how well .NET is designed, but not entirely)
c) You can run it on free OSes, which makes distribution of devices like cell phones a lot cheaper/easier and scaling out large applications more palatable to a business (think of what would happen if Google had to pay for 100,000+ Windows licenses to run its search engine. Wouldn't work out so well.
d) Better support in the development community. In my opinion, the world's best programmers tend to have tons of Java experience but it is harder to find truly excellent .NET programmers (training could negate this argument though)


Originally posted by redec


bah...C++ has all the power of C, plus a whole lot more....if you really want to get technical nothing beats the low-end power of asm :)



C# is way above and beyond Java...they can't even be compared imho....the only thing similar between them is they are both OO, and they are both portable in their binary form.....they would be comparable if
a) Java had any support for any kind of decent RAD GUI development.
b) Java had JIT
c) Java had a host of components in it's framework somewhere approaching the scale of .NET.

Java has nothing on .NET

[RiCE-DaDDy]

Java is FREE!!!! hehe

[bart]

Originally posted by redec


hahah...you're obiously not a programmer...C++ owns, nothing can compare...c# is pretty sweet too tho

ahah you're a retard. :thumbsup:

Yes C is good, java licks balls, but PHP ownz j00!

[sputnik]

Originally posted by bart

Yes C is good, java licks balls, but PHP ownz j00!

worst comparison ever... apples oranges and bananas

"honda is good, edmonton licks balls, but tomatoes ownz j00!"

[bart]

lol, ya each is different. but in general terms, for a n00b, php is the easiest to learn.

[redec]

Originally posted by E36M3
Type JAVA RAD into Google:

a) 314,000 results. You might be able to find a decent one in there somewhere methinks, but since you haven't specified any criteria, it would be impossible for me to point you to one (there are many great ones out there IMO)

b) You already looked apparently and found at least one (hint: there are more out there)

c) Which framework are you talking about? I think that Java has at least as many if not more components available, although with as vague of a statement as this, it is hard to react.

yeah....I didn't say none existed...I said no decent ones...of the ones I've seen/used, none compare to VS.NET


Originally posted by E36M3

a) It isn't made by Microsoft, and therefor runs on operating systems other than Microsoft. This might not be a big deal now, but just wait till DRM becomes a bigger issue.
b) It runs on hardware other than x86 based, windows compatible stuff. This is already a big deal when scaling huge applications (mitigated a bit by how well .NET is designed, but not entirely)
c) You can run it on free OSes, which makes distribution of devices like cell phones a lot cheaper/easier and scaling out large applications more palatable to a business (think of what would happen if Google had to pay for 100,000+ Windows licenses to run its search engine. Wouldn't work out so well.

.NET also runs on non-MS systems....on non-x86 systems....and on free OS's...


Originally posted by E36M3

d) Better support in the development community. In my opinion, the world's best programmers tend to have tons of Java experience but it is harder to find truly excellent .NET programmers (training could negate this argument though)


It seems to me there's alot more demand for .NET than there is for Java....I would guess the reason people tend to have more experience in Java than in .NET is because .NET is brand new, Java is already aging technology...


I'm not trying to start an argument or belittle Java or Java developers, I just think .NET is a much better technology, and has a much brighter future.

[redec]

Originally posted by RiCE-DaDDy
Java is FREE!!!! hehe

.NET is also free...

[skc435]

hey what is this .NET you guys are talking about? Is it a programming center?

[redec]

Originally posted by skc435
hey what is this .NET you guys are talking about? Is it a programming center?

.NET is an application/programming framework. It's basically a technology built on web services, with interoperability being the main focus. Different components can be written in any .NET language and can interact with each other seamlessly, locally or over a network/internet.

http://www.microsoft.com/net for a more detailed/accurate explanation.

[skc435]

what is the best language if in the future I'm considering to make software/game?

[redec]

Originally posted by Orbie

Well, if I really wanted to get technical I would have stated my love for x86 or Motorola. Nothing beats the low-end power of native machine code lol!

heheh...I suppose....I'd like to see someone write straight machine code now-a-days tho....not that it has any advantage over asm tho :P....other than you don't need an assembler I guess :)


Originally posted by Orbie

But my point with C was that it offers the low end power plus user-friendlyness. I'd invite you to write an IR microcontroller using x86 or 8051 assembly compared to C and you'll know what I mean (on a compatible microprocessor of course:thumbsup: )

yes....my point was that C++ is a superset of C....it has all the power and userfriendlyness plus it has a whole lot of extra stuff which can improve your design drastically...I actually do write assembly on an (almost) daily basis and there's absolutly no doubt the C/C++ is easier to write. C is a wonderful language....but it's still only my second-favorite :)

[skc435]

oh aight I see. do you teach C++? or could ya tutor me and i would pay?

[redec]

Originally posted by skc435
what is the best language if in the future I'm considering to make software/game?

it really depends on what kind of software/game you're wanting to write...every language has it's strengths and weaknesses and each will excel when used what they are designed for....it also depends how you define 'best'....fastest to develop? most maintainable? fastest execution? smallest executable/least dependencies?

like....if you wanted to write a web-app you'd probably want to use PHP or ASP...if you want to write something like quake, chances are you would want to use C/C++/ASM....if you wanted to write a windows game of some sort VB may be good enough. To the guys that like to argue, don't flame me for listing these languages, there are a bunch of other languages that can be just as good or better than the ones I've listed....

My best advice is to sit down and design the entire application (as detailed as possible) and then only after your design is complete do you chose a language. The final quality of the product is directly proportional to the amount of up-front design. As much as you (and I) love to jump right in and start coding, it is perhaps the worst thing you can do to your program. As simply as possible:
1) requirements design
2) technology design/decisions
3) code design
4) code
5) test
It seems like alot of wasted time, but the amount of time you use in the design steps will be saved easily in the coding and testing steps...

[redec]

Originally posted by skc435
oh aight I see. do you teach C++? or could ya tutor me and i would pay? sorry...I really don't have the time....but if you're having problems and you have specific questions I'm sure I could help ya out.

[E36M3]

You haven't looked carefully enough at what is available for Java then. VS.NET is great, but there are definitely several great Java development environments out there.

.Net doesn't run on Non-MS systems or non-x86 systems or on Free OSes. A clone of .NET sort of does. I'm sure you already know that, so I dunno why you would say otherwise. If anyone is confused about what .NET is, this is as good a description as any:

http://www.microsoft.com/net/basics/framework.asp

.NET is sort of free, but is a proprietary framework that runs on a proprietary set of operating systems (Windows), so it is not free to run any application that has been developed in .NET (unless you run it on one of the .NET framework clones on a free OS, which is really kludgy).



Originally posted by redec

yeah....I didn't say none existed...I said no decent ones...of the ones I've seen/used, none compare to VS.NET


.NET also runs on non-MS systems....on non-x86 systems....and on free OS's...



It seems to me there's alot more demand for .NET than there is for Java....I would guess the reason people tend to have more experience in Java than in .NET is because .NET is brand new, Java is already aging technology...


I'm not trying to start an argument or belittle Java or Java developers, I just think .NET is a much better technology, and has a much brighter future.

[RickDaTuner]

could all the ub3r 1337 geeks talk english now...

[redec]

Originally posted by E36M3
You haven't looked carefully enough at what is available for Java then. VS.NET is great, but there are definitely several great Java development environments out there.

That's very possible....I retract my previous statement :)


Originally posted by E36M3

.Net doesn't run on Non-MS systems or non-x86 systems or on Free OSes. A clone of .NET sort of does. I'm sure you already know that, so I dunno why you would say otherwise....NET is sort of free, but is a proprietary framework that runs on a proprietary set of operating systems (Windows), so it is not free to run any application that has been developed in .NET (unless you run it on one of the .NET framework clones on a free OS, which is really kludgy).

gotta disagree here...here's a link to download the .NET CLI for windows, freebsd, and mac osx 10.2...the original, not a clone..
http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyId=3A1C93FA-7462-47D0-8E56-8DD34C6292F0&displaylang=en
not only is the CLI free, but they also give their .NET compiler away for free...http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?familyid=9b3a2ca6-3647-4070-9f41-a333c6b9181d&displaylang=en

[redec]

Originally posted by RickDaTuner
could all the ub3r 1337 geeks talk english now...
heheh....what did you expect in a thread named 'Programming...'? :D

[E36M3]

Uh, no, that is not .NET for other platforms, it is a small part of the .NET framework.

Read the FAQ:

http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/library/en-us/Dndotnet/html/mssharsourcecli.asp

The Microsoft® Shared Source CLI Implementation is a file archive containing working source code for the ECMA-334 (C#) and ECMA-335 (Common Language Infrastructure, or CLI) standards. These standards together represent a substantial <b>subset of what is available in the Microsoft .NET Framework.</b>

In any case, this is a useless argument. If you really believe that .NET works properly (or at all in practical terms) on a platform other than Windows, you just haven't tried it.


Originally posted by redec

That's very possible....I retract my previous statement :)


gotta disagree here...here's a link to download the .NET CLI for windows, freebsd, and mac osx 10.2...the original, not a clone..
http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyId=3A1C93FA-7462-47D0-8E56-8DD34C6292F0&amp;displaylang=en
not only is the CLI free, but they also give their .NET compiler away for free...http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?familyid=9b3a2ca6-3647-4070-9f41-a333c6b9181d&amp;displaylang=en

[redec]

Originally posted by E36M3
Uh, no, that is not .NET for other platforms, it is a small part of the .NET framework.


um...it is the full CLI....including the CLR....iow it is everything required to run .NET applications on other platforms.

At any rate, I don't think we're going to be able to agree on this...so I prefer .NET, you prefer Java....lets just leave it at that.

[roopi]

Originally posted by redec


um...it is the full CLI....including the CLR....iow it is everything required to run .NET applications on other platforms.

At any rate, I don't think we're going to be able to agree on this...so I prefer .NET, you prefer Java....lets just leave it at that.

I'm with redec on this. .NET :thumbsup: Bill needs more money. :D

[E36M3]

That just isn't true, but I am sick of arguing over trivial bullshit. Read the FAQ, it is designed for researchers as a proof of concept, and is simply not the .NET framework. It is part of it, but not designed for any sort of production use, and to my knowledge has never been used as such. If you can prove otherwise, go ahead, but I would be shocked if it were the case.

The point is that Java is truly multi-platform, has been around for years, and runs successfully every day on dozens on operating systems.

.NET is a lot of things, and a fine framework, but it is not designed to run on Open Source operating systems, it is designed to run on Windows, and is not "open" in the sense that there can be contributions to the framework from others outside of Microsoft.




Originally posted by redec


um...it is the full CLI....including the CLR....iow it is everything required to run .NET applications on other platforms.

At any rate, I don't think we're going to be able to agree on this...so I prefer .NET, you prefer Java....lets just leave it at that.

[skc435]

Could someone give me a good definition and example of what .NET is?

[Kor]

This thread is very funny.