Degree vs. Diploma?

[euro tang]

Out of curiosity I was browsing through a job search web site for the city of Chicago and noticed that most employers give that a minimum two-year degree is required? My question is how might a two-year degree differ from a two-year diploma? I have recently started to contemplate about moving there in the future and I am curious to know because I have only just now attained a two-year diploma from SAIT.

[ZorroAMG]

A diploma is usually obtained through a college and a degree through a university...

Universities are usually regarded more highly than colleges and they have a more strict grading and accpetance policy for the most part....

Go for the degree if you have the ability to, but it won't guarantee anything either, so umm it's up to you...

[gpomp]

Originally posted by ZorroAMG
A degree is usually obtained through a college and a degree through a university...

I think you mean a diploma is obtained from a college.

[ZorroAMG]

oops yeah..lol edited...

[RiCE-DaDDy]

Depends on what your goals are. Some ppl only need/want a diploma

[Shaolin]

I think a degree is really used for promotions or a way to negotiate wages.. the stuff I do at work pretty much have nothing to do with the stuff I was taught at school.

[nosegrindR]

Originally posted by Shaolin
I think a degree is really used for promotions or a way to negotiate wages.. the stuff I do at work pretty much have nothing to do with the stuff I was taught at school.

it never really is, post secondary educations such as universities provide critical thinking skills more than any applied skills

[euro tang]

I think Zorro sumed it up the best but I would also like to add that nosegrindR's comment is quite true and I also think that completing post secondary has more to do with demonstrating the ability of a person to learn rather then understanding the material that is taught.

[Kor]

One funny thing I notice at the University is that so many students just try to take as many 'fun' or 'easy' classes as they can, or take the bare minimum requirements. They slide through their degree then when they get into the workforce, they can say "I don't use any of the stuff I learned at University". I have been at the UofC for a long time (6+ years) so I have done some of this myself.

Well, thats what you get for picking those courses... there are definitely a lot of courses in my program that are highly applicable to a related career. Most of them are 500 and 600 level courses, in some of them you actually work with companies in Calgary. The kinds of students who end up taking these classes are generally highly interested and motivated people with good grades, and I think it pays off for them. In my program we also have internship and honors programs that both allow students to take their education in a direction that parallels their career path. But of course the minimum requirements for a degree consist mainly of 200, 300 and 400 level courses.

Sorry for the rant :)

[RiCE-DaDDy]

Originally posted by Kor
One funny thing I notice at the University is that so many students just try to take as many 'fun' or 'easy' classes as they can, or take the bare minimum requirements. They slide through their degree then when they get into the workforce, they can say "I don't use any of the stuff I learned at University". I have been at the UofC for a long time (6+ years) so I have done some of this myself.

Well, thats what you get for picking those courses... there are definitely a lot of courses in my program that are highly applicable to a related career. Most of them are 500 and 600 level courses, in some of them you actually work with companies in Calgary. The kinds of students who end up taking these classes are generally highly interested and motivated people with good grades, and I think it pays off for them. In my program we also have internship and honors programs that both allow students to take their education in a direction that parallels their career path. But of course the minimum requirements for a degree consist mainly of 200, 300 and 400 level courses.

Sorry for the rant :)

500, 600 courses are very application specific while the lower courses are more for the foundation and base which is also essential.

What's your major?

[Kor]

Originally posted by RiCE-DaDDy


500, 600 courses are very application specific while the lower courses are more for the foundation and base which is also essential.

What's your major?

I'm a grad student in Computer Science.

You said it in a lot fewer words than me! I guess its obvious, the higher level courses are very specific - so if you pick one that is specific to what you want to do or will be doing, then you will learn a lot that you can apply later in life.

For example, in computer science there are graphics courses, gui design courses, game development courses, e-business software development courses, computer security courses, and there is even a sysadmin course all at the 500 level. All of these are tailored to specific careers. But most people take "History of Computing" for their 500 requirement because you can pass the tests while hungover...

Its partly the University's fault but partly the students fault. In most cases you can actually take a higher level course in place of a lower level course! For example, you can have a 500 level class count as a 400 or 300 level class requirement in your degree. If I could take my undergrad again, I would definitely do this.

But I am also talking about options. For almost all degrees you are allowed to take options, basically any course will work. If you plan to work at a company, maybe take business or finance or management courses that might actually help you in the workplace... archaeology probably is less useful. And as I mentioned before, there are things like honors degrees and internship degrees and even the concept of a minor - you can still minor in something - but the emphasis most students put on University (in my eyes) is to get the piece of paper as quick as they can and get out.

[Akagi Redsuns]

Originally posted by Kor
snip.......... but the emphasis most students put on University (in my eyes) is to get the piece of paper as quick as they can and get out.

I was gulity of that when I went to University. The main reason wasn't that I didn't want to learn or to take more courses, but mostly about the $$$ being spent. Wanted to get my degree, get some work exprience and get out and start making money and get a return on the investment. I always figured that after I established a career and get my finances in order I just might go back, but to the profs and courses I want to take and not dictated by degree requirements.

[Kor]

Well despite my ranting I did the same thing, and yeah paying tuition sucked. I only see things more clearly now, especially as a grad student and TA, and having seen a lot of curriculum changes and 3 different graduating classes go by.

[Akagi Redsuns]

Forgot to mention it in my previous post, but for options, I took the easiest courses I could find. The workload for the courses for my degree was so insane, I didn't even try to find any options that would interest me. Would have been really nice to take a break from the grind and take courses I would enjoy, but they required work, time and effort, and it would have been taken away from my regular courses. Just decided on ones that would be hella easy to pass or would be a GPA booster.

But even though I was trying to take the easy way out for options, I didn't do the same when taking technical elective courses for my final year. I took courses that genuinely interested me regardless of it's reputation of being difficult or time consuming. Probably not the smartest thing in terms of maximizing GPA, but hell, it was the last year and I wanted to make sure I was into the sbjects I was learning and spending so much time, money and effort on.

[girlRACER]

I think sometimes people have a misconception about what University is all about. According to how a professor put it, University is and has always been (in Greek history) a place for people to discuss universal ideas (hence the name - university). It is a place to expand the mind and be knowledgeable across many areas and is as simple as that.

Eurotang, you have to review what your expectations are from 2 years of education. We all know that University degrees don't guarantee jobs but it will open your mind to different ideas and perspectives that are overlooked in colleges. Many people go to University and don't understand why they are required to take a whole bunch of courses outside of their Major and end up leaving to Sait etc. for that reason.

If you are passionate about a particular subject then go the University route. If you are looking for the core knowledge to land you a job then go the college route. Hope this helps :)

[Toma]

If you have a specific career in mind, take those courses where they are offered fastest.

Law, Medicine, Engineering, Teaching..... you must go to U of C.

Technologists, Technicians, Clerks, Draftspersons, Surveyors etc... go to SAIT

If you just go to University "cause it's better" without a specific outcome/career in mind, you are wasting your time in terms of jobs.... that's how I ended up with 2 degrees and 2 minors, and 2 years towards my engineering, but don't work in any related field ;) There are thousands of people like me.

[Orbie]

Kor,

Just wondering what courses you have TA'd in the past few years, I've finished my B.Sc in CPSC so I'm thinking I may know you. Anyways I agree with your rant for sure, even in degrees where you feel that the course material should be hard enough to filter students to only those dedicated, it's not the case. I've found in CPSC there is just too many students who drift through by free-loading off others. This happens all too frequently in group projects as well as individual assignments, because friends help friends right? IMO I don't think that's the way people should help each other out. Then you get to the 500 level courses and your amazed to meet people with a 1st year work ethic and haven't learned a thing!

What do you think of the recent changes they're making to the CPSC program? alot of the 500's are changing to 400's and 300's to 200's etc. This includes Walpole's "History of Computing", so at least you won't see people taking that for a 500 requirement anymore. Also 455 and 355 are being chopped up and merged to form several other courses at the 200 and 300 level for low-level programming. Interesting that they may be using the Xilinx boards that we produced in 525 for those courses instead of the near-dead 455 computers. I would really like to see the programs get harder to build a better reputation for the department, but I doubt that's going to happen because of the need for money.

Just curious but why haven't you decided to move into the job market? I know some people like the research/project work involved in graduate studies, but after 6+ years of school don't you want to start your career?

[RiCE-DaDDy]

Originally posted by Orbie
Kor,

Just wondering what courses you have TA'd in the past few years, I've finished my B.Sc in CPSC so I'm thinking I may know you. Anyways I agree with your rant for sure, even in degrees where you feel that the course material should be hard enough to filter students to only those dedicated, it's not the case. I've found in CPSC there is just too many students who drift through by free-loading off others. This happens all too frequently in group projects as well as individual assignments, because friends help friends right? IMO I don't think that's the way people should help each other out. Then you get to the 500 level courses and your amazed to meet people with a 1st year work ethic and haven't learned a thing!

What do you think of the recent changes they're making to the CPSC program? alot of the 500's are changing to 400's and 300's to 200's etc. This includes Walpole's "History of Computing", so at least you won't see people taking that for a 500 requirement anymore. Also 455 and 355 are being chopped up and merged to form several other courses at the 200 and 300 level for low-level programming. Interesting that they may be using the Xilinx boards that we produced in 525 for those courses instead of the near-dead 455 computers. I would really like to see the programs get harder to build a better reputation for the department, but I doubt that's going to happen because of the need for money.

Just curious but why haven't you decided to move into the job market? I know some people like the research/project work involved in graduate studies, but after 6+ years of school don't you want to start your career?

I'm curious too hehe :)

[Kor]

Originally posted by Orbie
Kor,
...
Just curious but why haven't you decided to move into the job market? I know some people like the research/project work involved in graduate studies, but after 6+ years of school don't you want to start your career?


I have TA'd CPSC 547 and SENG 513 for the last couple years, but I did not TA this past semester. Neither have huge enrollment so its not too likely I have had you as a student!

I like a lot of the changes they are making to computer science, and I have been lucky to even have some input into them. Creating specializations is going to discourage a lot more students from taking the lazy path to a degree. I also agree with the changes to the low-level programming classes since I personally believe that this knowledge 1. can be passed on in a single class and 2. is becomming less and less important in the grand scheme of computer science. Obviously there are still problems and things that I disagree with. One huge problem is just that some instructors suck, and they have near total control over the courses they teach.

Oh and I took History of Computing way before Walpole taught it, it was Williams back then I think. But I took all of Walpole's other classes, right up to Hardware II.

In some ways the program will not be getting harder. The administration basically gets rewarded if more students pass, and criticized if overwhelming numbers of students fail. They are trying to eliminate the "do or die" theory classes such as CPSC 413 or Math 271 because of higher failure rates and student complaints. I disagree with this strategy very strongly, but unfortunately I do not have my own vote!

Doing a MSc. was the best decision I could have made. You really get to see University in a different light, I think that most undergraduates really have no idea what grad school is like, what kind of opportunities it presents and what goes on behind the scenes. It is nothing like being an undergraduate, there are no exams, classes, projects, assignments, or anything like that. You get opportunities to TA/teach and influence the undergrad programs, and you make your own hours. You can get published in major books and magazines. Doing research is really great fun. Also, if you are a strong graduate student you make more money in a year than you do working when right out of school. :D

As for starting my career, I already have! Now that I am finishing my degree, I have all kinds of contact offers and standing job offers. I have travelled to many countries and met a lot of famous people (on the University's budget). I have had opportunities to make myself known at Calgary companies too and now I stand out from the legions of new graduate resumes they see each year. Right now I am writing this post from a paid contract position in Germany that would not have been possible if I was not a grad student. I do plan on leaving the UofC after this year, but to be honest I was very tempted to continue on and do my Phd instead.

Whats 2 years of grad school? The way I see it, I am only 24, I have 30+ years of work ahead of me. Plenty of time for working, and once I start buying a house and working 9-5 jobs I am not going to have the chance to do things like travel or go back to school.

Holy shit, sorry to hijack this post.

[girlRACER]

^^I'll be starting an MA in Humanities this fall and I was wondering about the grants/financing from the University. How does it work?? Also, how much money did you spent on books approximately per year? How much is tuition?

I heard from some of my friends that doing a Masters is a lonely endeavor. Is that true?

Thanks ;)

[Kor]

I'll just PM you and save everyone having to read something so specific...

[RiCE-DaDDy]

I'd like to know too.:) I'm in CPSC as well.

[Orbie]

Kor,

I'm not going to quote your post, because needless to say it was humongous!

Very insightful thoughts though, it's good to see things from a graduate point of view. Yeah I could have taken History of Computing with Williams as well, but that was solely because you didn't need anything but a 300-level requirement to take the course (which I thought was a joke).

Good to see things are going well for you, but also to note don't think just because you start working that you will be sitting in an office 9-5. There are plenty of Computer related jobs where travel is plentiful, consulting for one.

Oh and yeah your right, I probably haven't had a lab with you, my specialization was in Embedded systems so needless to say I know Walpole very well lol.

[Ven]

Originally posted by Toma
.... that's how I ended up with 2 degrees and 2 minors, and 2 years towards my engineering, but don't work in any related field ;) There are thousands of people like me.

There sure are :)

[euro tang]

Wow, you guy noted some very motivating issues but I would like to point out that I hope to gain enough experience in order for employers to overlook the fact that I only have a diploma rather then a degree. I believe that in most cases experience is valued a lot more than the level of education a person has received.

[Orbie]

Originally posted by euro tang
I believe that in most cases experience is valued a lot more than the level of education a person has received.

You are 110% right about that! I can vouch for that almost any time in the professional working world. I believe that education (degree/diploma) is what gives you the essential basic skills to build on, while the experience is what makes you appealing over other applicants to an employer. Having a degree is a nice thing to have on paper for promotions and salary reasons but if you had lots more relevant experience and no degree, I'm sure it would not put you at too much of a handicap.