what size turbo, and who has it?

[black_shadow_18]

Hi, In the next few weeks here, I am planning on upgrading my turbo again. Bigger is better right?:thumbsup: anyways. Its for a 1993 TSi Talon. I am shooting for 500-550HP. current mods are as follows:

8.5:1 Wiseco pistons, with Eagle H-Beam Rods
Cometic Head Gasket
Balanced Crank
Walbro 255 high pressure pump
660CC injectors
AEM EMS
MAP/IAT conversion
EVO 3 Big 16G

soon to haves:
HKS 264/264 cams (for streetability as opposed to 272's)
BIG FMIC
Turbo (this is the help i need)
ported/polished head with dual valve springs

What turbo do i need for this goal, and how much am i looking at spending? Im looking for a relatively quick spoolup for on the street, and it has to be capeable of high boost levels. I want to steer away from the Mitus 20 G as I have heard it takes forever to spool. What is the turbo experts suggestions?

[Skylinelover]

Holy crap that thing must be a beast 500-550 hp. :eek:

[Forcefed]

there is a very nice turbo for sale on the Canada Board. It's an FP3065, it will surely get you well over 500 HP!! Here's a link for it, I think he wants 1700 cdn which is a steal because they sell for 1279 US!!!

Here's his info in intersted:

Kevin Parent

Contact: [email protected]

He also has the 2 1/2'' Custom 02 housing for sale if interested!! This is a direct bolt on, a turbo I wouldn't pass up!!

link: http://ca.dsm.org/
Under: Wanted to Sell
Thread Name: Performance Parting Out

[WGR4Pussies]

garret super 60!!! ;)

[tsi_neal]

what forcefed said
from everything ive heard those turbos are amazing.

for a better price you could look at a garret t-66, but you loose the GT30 housing and the ballbearings

either of those should put you well over 500whp

in your list of soon to haves id switch up the 264's for 272's you will flow enough air to make good use of them, and for sure add an intake manifold.

[black_shadow_18]

im just worried about idle and full boost with the 272's. This is still going to be a street car, so idle is pretty important to me, and I still use the A/C also!

[tsi_neal]

well youll be using the EMS on the setup so setting your idle at say 1000 will be easy and will help smooth it out considerably.

the 272's will hurt spoolup time, but were talking like a 200rpm window, so if it were me id live with it. Truthfully ive never seen nor heard firsthand reviews of the onboost power difference between the 272's and 264's, so im hopefully not talking out my ass. but what i have seen is a dyno chart showing that the big16g is just enough turbo to make full potential out of the 264's, so more turbo = more CFM = more benifit from bigger cams. and the 272's can theoretically flow alot more especially at higher rpm's and boost/CFM levels. so if im assuming correct (by the heavy duty valve springs) that youll definatly want to wind this motor up past 7K probably to 8+k then id definatly say youll see considerable benifits from the 272's.

[black_shadow_18]

thanks tsi_neal

does anyone know what kind of boost reponse i can expect from lets say a T-66? Is there any place in the city I can talk to, to get some more info (prices, wait, and a/r's)
thanks

[black_shadow_18]

Im not goot on my garrett turbo's so this might sound stupid, but:


What is the difference between a 50 trim and 60 trim? What kind of power could i expect from a 60 trim t3/t4?

[WGR4Pussies]

60 trim is bigger man

[black_shadow_18]

how much power can they support?

[rage2]

60 trim is good for about 500whp-525whp depending on your setup. I'm using one in my 944 turbo.

It's gonna be one laggy turbo though with only 2.0L of displacement. I had a 57 trim on my 2.5L and I found it too laggy for my tastes. With the 60 trim turbo on my 2.8L, I found it acceptable.

You might want to look into the GT series turbos... they have a much wider compressor map than the T3/T4 series, so you'll be able to flow a lot of power up top and still maintain half decent streetability. As much fun as a big turbo and that huge kick in the pants is, 2500-3000rpm wide powerbands suck ass.

Can't wait till Hollywood reads my posts and responds :rofl:.

[tsi_neal]

im only guessing here, but forced performance claims full spool on a FP3065 to be somehting like 4K (what full spool is im not sure) and being a slightly less efficient exhaust housing and non ball bearing yet somewhat similar size id give the T-66 an extra 500rpm for full spool. There are ALOT of factors involved here and im not in the mood for doing research so take this guess for what it is.

even a 60trim t3/t4 there are alot of variants on the specific wheels used. but a good 60trim should get you reasonably close to 500whp (475?) on pump gas. a 50trim will give you better spoolup times and probably 425whp on pump.

as it sits with a very good setup your evo316g will get you 350-375whp, which will still be low 12's possible high 11's

[tsi_neal]

Just read rage's post, remember that we have AWD driveline losses so we dont see as high WHP #'s as a rwd porsche...
and the FP3065 is a GT30 series turbo that bolts up to a mitsu 7cm flange.

[rage2]

500whp on pump gas? What kinda crack you smokin' there? ;)

Regardless of turbo, I'm guessing with 2.0L displacement and let's say cams and peak power at 7000rpm, the talon motor wont make more than 320whp on pump gas. Anything past that will require some pricey race gas.

[tsi_neal]

heh, if you like ill dig up one guys DSM build thats seeing a little north of 500whp on pump (93 octane?) with a 60trim turbo


EDIT: Ok to prove the internet benchracing loser that i really am... http://www.twingles.com/ideck/ and i was wrong its a 50trim turbo

[rage2]

Find me a link, I'd really like to see a 500whp 2L motor on pump gas that doesn't melt itself.

[tsi_neal]

ok, this one took some looking, but there is a bit more info on the setup. amazingly he has nothing terribly special, but awesome tuning skills
http://www.dsmtalk.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=110439&highlight=pump+AND+dre

[WGR4Pussies]

lol, thats cool.

[rage2]

Like I said, show me one that doesn't melt itself :). That thing really is only good for dyno runs. It runs 6 degrees of timing. EGT's with that much ignition retard will melt pistons and valves in no time in REAL world conditions.

Anything under 17 degrees of timing (generally) will hurt a motor over time. 6 degrees will have the manifold glowing bright red by the middle of 2nd gear... by 4th chunks of exhaust valves will be entering the turbine ;).

[WGR4Pussies]

Originally posted by rage2
Like I said, show me one that doesn't melt itself :). That thing really is only good for dyno runs. It runs 6 degrees of timing. EGT's with that much ignition retard will melt pistons and valves in no time in REAL world conditions.

Anything under 17 degrees of timing (generally) will hurt a motor over time. 6 degrees will have the manifold glowing bright red by the middle of 2nd gear... by 4th chunks of exhaust valves will be entering the turbine ;).

lol, yeah, i read it and he was melting sparkplugs every dyno run, hahaha.

[redline]

Originally posted by rage2
Find me a link, I'd really like to see a 500whp 2L motor on pump gas that doesn't melt itself.

:werd:

[legendboy]

I think your injectors are only good for 400-425whp.......unless you have your fuel presure cranked up....

[rage2]

Originally posted by WGR4Pussies
lol, yeah, i read it and he was melting sparkplugs every dyno run, hahaha.
Every 4th gear pull on the street spark plugs melt :rofl:. I guess he's lucky that the plugs are melting first. Stop the madness from killing the rest of his motor heh.

What's funny is everybody in the thread is worshiping the guy haha. Man if someone gave me a talon they don't care about, I'll make 1000hp but it'll last 10 seconds, enough for a dyno run. But ya, you'd have to be pretty crazy/retarded to do that.

[tsi_neal]

Originally posted by rage2
Like I said, show me one that doesn't melt itself :). That thing really is only good for dyno runs. It runs 6 degrees of timing. EGT's with that much ignition retard will melt pistons and valves in no time in REAL world conditions.

Anything under 17 degrees of timing (generally) will hurt a motor over time. 6 degrees will have the manifold glowing bright red by the middle of 2nd gear... by 4th chunks of exhaust valves will be entering the turbine ;).


Thing is he claims he daily drives this car, as youve pointed out he has some insanely agressive timing for the dyno runs, but lets drop the boost by 3psi and have a more normal timing curve and i bet hes still making over 450whp on pump. take into account the crap driveline loss of an AWD and thats some 600 at the flywheel, take an average fwd drivetrain and now we have 500whp again... :D

and now its about time i stop internet benchracing, really i didnt want to do it, i swear...

[rage2]

Originally posted by tsi_neal
Thing is he claims he daily drives this car
Yea, but he also says he never goes on boost because it melts sparkplugs. We call that a dyno queen around here.

Originally posted by tsi_neal
he has some insanely agressive timing for the dyno runs, but lets drop the boost by 3psi and have a more normal timing curve and i bet hes still making over 450whp on pump.
He'll have to dial a LOT of boost back to get timing back up to the high teens without detonation. He'll be seeing 320whp, maybe 350whp if he wants to be able to drive the shit out of it reliably.

[EK 2.0]

I have the 20G and I have no real issues with it spooling (when everything was working)...Yes it does spool a lot slower than say your old 16G but when spooled it hits hard man...

[rice_eater]

cyclone which wheel did you go with? is it the regular 20G or the hybrid one from Hanh?

[EK 2.0]

Originally posted by rice_eater
cyclone which wheel did you go with? is it the regular 20G or the hybrid one from Hanh?


regular one...still considering clipping it...but lets get Cyclone running right first...

[legendboy]

Whats with dsm guys clipping wheels... all clipping is gonna do is cause you guys to spool later! And decrease the maximum output of the turbo!

[WGR4Pussies]

Originally posted by legendboy
Whats with dsm guys clipping wheels... all clipping is gonna do is cause you guys to spool later! And decrease the maximum output of the turbo!

While were on the topic of clipping, how does that work? Do you actually 'clip' pieces from the exhaust wheel or do you grind it down? Then I assume you have to get it balanced as well? :dunno: I have a friend interested in doing this to his supra.

[EK 2.0]

Originally posted by legendboy
Whats with dsm guys clipping wheels... all clipping is gonna do is cause you guys to spool later! And decrease the maximum output of the turbo!


for me its an expiriment as I have a spare wheel for my 20G kicking around...for others I have no idea, I have read both good and bad about it so...I just have to see for myself I guess...

[m10-power]

Reminds me of a fellow I know that runs ATDC timing numbers...somehow his 30psi was slower then my 12psi (same turbo)
Dyno numbers are not facts, very easy to fake numbers on a dyno.
Asking for a streetable 500hp from 2.0L is a tad unreasonable, shoot for 350ish and you'll be driving more often and having more fun. Focus on total power under the curve verses peak power

[rice_eater]

Originally posted by legendboy
Whats with dsm guys clipping wheels... all clipping is gonna do is cause you guys to spool later! And decrease the maximum output of the turbo!

i wasnt talking about clipping...i just know that the 20G hybrid comes with 3 different wheel choices. Unfortunately Hanh has that info hidden on the website somewhere and i can't find it

[rage2]

Originally posted by rice_eater
i wasnt talking about clipping...i just know that the 20G hybrid comes with 3 different wheel choices. Unfortunately Hanh has that info hidden on the website somewhere and i can't find it
he wasn't talking to you ;).

[legendboy]

haha i was like wtf :dunno:

[Redlyne_mr2]

Originally posted by rage2
Find me a link, I'd really like to see a 500whp 2L motor on pump gas that doesn't melt itself.
There are a bunch of +500whp 2L mr2's out there

[Redlyne_mr2]

Here are a few one is from the states the other belong so a bud of mine here in TO, I do know of many others but can't find the links.:
http://www.driversimage.com/p7.shtml (not on pump gas though)
http://www.extremeboost.com/Jeffrey/ProjectSW20/mods.htm
A 500hp 3sgte on pump gas is not an uncommon thing in Japan as well

[rage2]

That extremeboost dude was running race gas. That and he blew like 8 motors turning up the boost ;).

A 500whp 2.0L motor on pump gas is possible. Make the engine rev to 11,000rpm, and have cams that are optimized for 7000-11,000rpm. Nobody does it because there's cheaper ways to make power.

[Redlyne_mr2]

Originally posted by rage2
That extremeboost dude was running race gas. That and he blew like 8 motors turning up the boost ;).

A 500whp 2.0L motor on pump gas is possible. Make the engine rev to 11,000rpm, and have cams that are optimized for 7000-11,000rpm. Nobody does it because there's cheaper ways to make power.
i've seen 500whp figures on pump gas from Jeff's car but yeah he has had to deal with a few fried engines. I just wanted to show that it is possible and that the 3sgte is a better engine than the 944 turbo engine;)

[legendboy]

Originally posted by Redlyne_mr2

i've seen 500whp figures on pump gas from Jeff's car but yeah he has had to deal with a few fried engines. I just wanted to show that it is possible and that the 3sgte is a better engine than the 944 turbo engine;)

OOOOOOOHHHHHHHHH Shit. I feel a 10 page technical debate comming on :rofl:

[rage2]

Originally posted by Redlyne_mr2
i've seen 500whp figures on pump gas from Jeff's car but yeah he has had to deal with a few fried engines. I just wanted to show that it is possible and that the 3sgte is a better engine than the 944 turbo engine;)

Originally posted by rage2
Find me a link, I'd really like to see a 500whp 2L motor on pump gas that doesn't melt itself.
There's no point in having a technical debate with someone that can't even understand what "doesn't melt itself" means :rofl:.

[legendboy]

HAHA :rofl:

[89coupe]

Your gonna need a whole new drive train as well if you wanna hold 500whp. Talon trannies suck ass! You'll need a beefier tranny, axels and diff's.

I have 500hp and run on pump gas just fine :D

[rage2]

Originally posted by 89coupe
I have 500hp and run on pump gas just fine :D
You're far from being 2L.

[89coupe]

It was meant as a joke :angel:


Originally posted by rage2

You're far from being 2L.

[Redlyne_mr2]

Originally posted by rage2


There's no point in having a technical debate with someone that can't even understand what "doesn't melt itself" means :rofl:.
Ouch :banghead: :rofl:

[EK 2.0]

boys, boys whats with all the harshness now??:D

[Go4Long]

there are deffinately 2.0L cars out there that run 500hp on pump gas, SR20DET's come to mind specifically, and the japanese early silvia counter part the CA18DET was capable of doing it as well... heck I know of some 1.3L engines making 500HP on pump gas(granted rotaries generally throw a wrench in the hp/displacement game)

[redline]

yes and japanese pump gas is 98 ~ 100 octane....

and it physics not pimp tuner or a bad ass engine from toyota, honda, or mitsu or anyone else, some where from low to mid 300 is the limit for a 4 cly on north american pump gas. unless the pumps in your hood pump c16:thumbsup:

[Redlyne_mr2]

Originally posted by redline
yes and japanese pump gas is 98 ~ 100 octane....

and it physics not pimp tuner or a bad ass engine from toyota, honda, or mitsu or anyone else, some where from low to mid 300 is the limit for a 4 cly on north american pump gas. unless the pumps in your hood pump c16:thumbsup:
Good call I always forget about the higher Octanes in JP. The 2.0l 500hp rule rings pretty true but like any rule there are always exceptions. From what I've seen with mr2's the average pump gas limit is around 380-400 whp

[m10-power]

500whp on 94 octane(highest in Canada I believe) with a 2.0L engine that is expected to be reliable isnt going to happen. My idea of reliable is being able to run laps at a race track not a quick 1/4 mile pass then shutting it down, or street use that never sees extended boost use.

Pump gas is easily spiked, dyno's are easily tricked.

[rage2]

Originally posted by m10-power
500whp on 94 octane(highest in Canada I believe) with a 2.0L engine that is expected to be reliable isnt going to happen. My idea of reliable is being able to run laps at a race track not a quick 1/4 mile pass then shutting it down, or street use that never sees extended boost use.
:werd:

It's simple physics people. Unless you find a way to break the laws of physics, it aint gonna happen.

[SinisterProbeGt]

Originally posted by Forcefed
there is a very nice turbo for sale on the Canada Board. It's an FP3065, it will surely get you well over 500 HP!! Here's a link for it, I think he wants 1700 cdn which is a steal because they sell for 1279 US!!!

Here's his info in intersted:

Kevin Parent

Contact: [email protected]

He also has the 2 1/2'' Custom 02 housing for sale if interested!! This is a direct bolt on, a turbo I wouldn't pass up!!

link: http://ca.dsm.org/
Under: Wanted to Sell
Thread Name: Performance Parting Out

http://www.ca.dsm.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=007204

[talonboi]

whut kind of turbo do u have that ur swapping out??

[redline]

Originally posted by rage2

:werd:

It's simple physics people. Unless you find a way to break the laws of physics, it aint gonna happen.

its that new math they are teaching these days!

[black_shadow_18]

I'll be swapping out and EVO 3 Big 16G. 9700km on it.

[boostfed]

I would recommend a PTE GT35 with the E or S housing. One with an S housing did 508 WHP @ 18 psi on a 2 litre honda. Starts making boost at about 2000, and 18 psi was all in by about 4800.

Also, FWIW, here's a dyno from an S2000 that did over 500 RWHP on pump gas that is daily driven.

http://www.full-race.com/images/gallery/s2k/images/010.jpg

Built motor, full-race turbo kit w/ T3/T67, unported head, stock cams.

http://www.full-race.com/images/gallery/s2k/

More images.

[rage2]

Originally posted by boostfed
Also, FWIW, here's a dyno from an S2000 that did over 500 RWHP on pump gas that is daily driven.

http://www.full-race.com/images/gallery/s2k/images/010.jpg

Built motor, full-race turbo kit w/ T3/T67, unported head, stock cams.

http://www.full-race.com/images/gallery/s2k/
Now THAT is a fucking powerband. 5500-9000rpm flat torque curve! :drool:

[Redlyne_mr2]

Ok it's not a 3sgte but here's a 503whp DSM running 93 octane
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=91793

http://www.twingles.com/ideck/engine/503whp441torqueDynoAGPt3t4.jpg

[rage2]

Originally posted by Redlyne_mr2
Ok it's not a 3sgte but here's a 503whp DSM running 93 octane
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=91793
Your intellegence (stupidity?) baffles me at times... click the link, it's the same dude on page 1 of this thread... the guy that ran 6 degrees of timing that melts spark plugs on every run.

[Redlyne_mr2]

Originally posted by rage2

Your intellegence (stupidity?) baffles me at times... click the link, it's the same dude on page 1 of this thread... the guy that ran 6 degrees of timing that melts spark plugs on every run.
Haha you bastard thanks for taking it easy on me. After the discussion we just had I finally realize your point. Fuck I wish i could prove you wrong, it would almost be worth buildig a 500whp capable 3sgte then having you tune it:rofl:

[rage2]

Rev it to 10,000rpm and you'll be in good shape :thumbsup:

That's how the S2000 can do it. Totally forgot that there IS a 2L street car that has tons of revs stock haha, so I guess boostfed did prove me wrong.

[redline]

Originally posted by rage2
Rev it to 10,000rpm and you'll be in good shape :thumbsup:


so how does RPM help in this problem?

[tsi_neal]

Originally posted by redline


so how does RPM help in this problem?

HP = TQ x RPM/5252

Motors make torque, hp is a "mythical" thing that happens to a cars torque curve as the motor is revved. Look at the S2000's torque curve somewhere around 300ftlbs and the hp curve just keeps climbing past 500hp.

the real "problem" is that it gets to a point where the cylinder pressures are so great pump gas detonates, but since cars really only make torque and 300ft lbs is within rages "possible" zone, you just need to make that 300ft lbs at a high enough rpm.


And BTW im still a firm believer of DSM'S making well over 400 streetable HP on pump gas. but im NOT gonna argue it, and yes i do have a very good grasp of the physics involved.

[rage2]

Originally posted by redline
so how does RPM help in this problem?

Originally posted by tsi_neal
HP = TQ x RPM/5252

Motors make torque, hp is a "mythical" thing that happens to a cars torque curve as the motor is revved. Look at the S2000's torque curve somewhere around 300ftlbs and the hp curve just keeps climbing past 500hp.

the real "problem" is that it gets to a point where the cylinder pressures are so great pump gas detonates, but since cars really only make torque and 300ft lbs is within rages "possible" zone, you just need to make that 300ft lbs at a high enough rpm.
tsi_neal pretty much explained it. Cylinder pressures/torque is the limiting factor with pump gas thanks to limitations in octane, or knock/detonation limits. HP is just a function of torque (torque over time basically). Make the same amount of torque but at a higher rpm (more work per minute) and you'll get more HP and obviously more work done.

I explained tq vs hp to redlyne_mr2 over MSN using the boxer analogy... Think of 2 boxers, both who can punch with a force of 20 (your torque). Now, boxer 1 can punch that hard 20 times per minute. Boxer 2 can punch that hard 40 times per minute. Boxer 2 is gonna inflict twice the damage because he does more work over that minute (your horsepower doubled but same torque).

Originally posted by tsi_neal
And BTW im still a firm believer of DSM'S making well over 400 streetable HP on pump gas. but im NOT gonna argue it, and yes i do have a very good grasp of the physics involved.
We were talking 500whp ;).

[Loose]

Rage, is there a theoretical torque limit that you think a 2L 4banger can make on pump gas?

...for the sake of discussion...

[rage2]

Originally posted by Loose
Rage, is there a theoretical torque limit that you think a 2L 4banger can make on pump gas?

...for the sake of discussion...
If there was, I wouldn't have the math skills to calculate it ;). Lots of things come into play, combustion chamber design can allow better burn/detonation control, valve designs can allow less timing or leaner mixture because it can reliably handle the higher temps, compression ratio, mechanical losses, the new direct fuel injection systems, type of "pump gas", tons of factors. Our higher altitude has a lot to do with it too (we can make more torque on a dyno than the sea level guys because of SAE corrections, but it's all bullshit heh).

I've witnessed 290wtq on a dynojet on a 92 octane agressive tune.

[m10-power]

Curious Rage what engine/turbocharger and how much boost pressure was run on the 290whp run your talking about?
I assume this is the mustang dyno.

[tsi_neal]

Originally posted by rage2

...

We were talking 500whp ;).


what so im not allowed to backtrack even alittle :dunno:

[turbojohngt]

T3 cast manifold with a turbonetics T04b ball bearing,or just use a john sheppard set up:thumbsup: