vortec FMU RRFPR

[2000impreza]

would you guys trust a device like the fmu to manage your fuel? i've heard everything from seized up injectors to blowing fuel lines off causing a engine melt down. turbo setup is almost done... but i can't afford any real engine management.... lol. if i can't do it right should i wait till i can?

[rage2]

Just don't use JB welds on the install, right Leo? :rofl:

FMU's are a great cheap solution and works half decent if setup properly. But it's impossible to get the perfect A/F curve in all load conditions unless you get some fancy electronics :D.

[legendboy]

even leo's first fum was bad. I've heard alot of people blowing up there engines because there fmu craps out while there in boost.

[LUDELVR]

it's not too bad and yes, my first fmu wasn't working properly! Basically, you just have to make sure that the one you get will never bring you into a lean mixture. As everyone knows, rich is better than lean and one of the downsides to the fmu is that it's hard to maintain a stead mixuter thoughout the entire rev range, so essentially, you may have a good mixture in one area and you may be super rich in another. I know a lot of people dread fmu's but they are quite reliable (knock on wood) you just have to make sure that your lines are up to par and that you're not boosting incredible amounts cuz I don't care what you have as an engine, most fuel lines, injectors etc are not meant to handle 150psi of fuel pressure!! hahaha, I think anywhere from 7-10 psi is safe on an fmu. Anything higher than that, I would move to larger injectors and a VAFC or hondata.

And yes, JB weld can kiss my fucking ass!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! hahahahaha:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

"My JB weld broke!!!!":dunno: :dunno:

[2000impreza]

thanks for the opinions. i know these devices aren't very accurate. my plan was keep boost around 5-7psi and run slightly rich till i can afford some sort of proper engine management. all i have for electronics at the monent is a hyper-r afc and apex-i itc.

[Hollywood]

Originally posted by 2000impreza
thanks for the opinions. i know these devices aren't very accurate. my plan was keep boost around 5-7psi and run slightly rich till i can afford some sort of proper engine management. all i have for electronics at the monent is a hyper-r afc and apex-i itc.

Let me say this for all people trying to through on a "junkyard" or half ass turbo kit on their car.

Half ass=Trouble.

If you can afford a new engine then go ahead and try what you need to try, be cheap what ever. But if money is stopping you from getting a crucial part....well..if you don't get it and your car blows up that $500.00 S-AFC does not look so bad anymore compared to the $5000 engine you now have to buy. You are not immune.

[legendboy]

Hmm......I thought my S-AFC/BTM was half ass! lol:rofl:

[rage2]

Originally posted by legendboy
Hmm......I thought my S-AFC/BTM was half ass! lol:rofl:

hehe you're right, S-AFC is still a half ass hack :D. Standalone or factory ECU tuning specific for your car is the only way to go.

[Hollywood]

Originally posted by rage2


hehe you're right, S-AFC is still a half ass hack :D. Standalone or factory ECU tuning specific for your car is the only way to go.

I don't think so personally. Half ass is RRFPR, not an AFC. You can still accomplish lots with an AFC and a wideband O2 dyno, obviously not as much as a SEMS but enought to get the job done at a safe level. "Only" is too strong of a word in this case, IMO.

[rage2]

Rising Rate FPR == ghetto. Ask Leo about that one hehe. I agree the S-AFC can do a lot, but it's still half ass cuz it gets 1/2 the job done (a nice air/fuel curve at full throttle). Great for drag racing, but still holes for day to day driving. Part throttle fuel control is terrible for NA cars with a turbo strapped on.

That's how I see it anyways :D.

[Toma]

Junk!! Especially on turbo motors. They raise fuel pressure in proportion to boost. however, at lower rpm and high boost turbos area capable of, you do not need as much (no where near as much) fuel as you do at high rpm and high boost). So will most likely end up with stinking rich down low, and lean up top.

Combine that with the fact that MOST FUEL PUMPS rapidly decrease in output as pressure increases. Some will drop output to LESS THEN HALF at high pressure (depends on many factors). But as an example, a pump capable of delivering 255 lph at 40 psi may only deliver 110 lph at 90 psi). Also add to this the slow response time of the FMU system (need to increase boost signal to FMU, FMU shuts off return to tank, fuel pressure builds up) and you are really asking for trouble.

My suggestion for a ghetto set-up would be one or 2 extra injectors activated by a simple hobbs switch. Soooo, get one extra injector to come on at 1 psi boost, then the other at 5 psi boost (as an example).

Hobbs switches are around $30 each, and extra injectors are next to free.....you just need to run fuel to them. Some people even use nitrous fuel soelnoids and fogger nozzles to add the additional fuel.

Tune the whole ghetto set-up on a dyno with a wide band, and you should be Ok..... I have seen a hodgepodge of 4 hobbs switches and various size injectors deliver a flat AF ratio.....impressive.

Toma

[Toma]

Someone last week told me there is a DIY extra injector controller on the market for $150 us....may be worth searching for as a CHEAP alternative for extra fuelling....

Toma

[Redlyne_mr2]

Originally posted by Toma
Someone last week told me there is a DIY extra injector controller on the market for $150 us....may be worth searching for as a CHEAP alternative for extra fuelling....

Toma
I know a guy whos going for the ghetto setup with his turbo firefly and thats what he did, run an extra injector.....a huge list of ghetto mods and hes now in the 14's hahaha:rofl: :rofl: :guns:

[legendboy]

Originally posted by rage2
Rising Rate FPR == ghetto. Ask Leo about that one hehe. I agree the S-AFC can do a lot, but it's still half ass cuz it gets 1/2 the job done (a nice air/fuel curve at full throttle). Great for drag racing, but still holes for day to day driving. Part throttle fuel control is terrible for NA cars with a turbo strapped on.

That's how I see it anyways :D.

mmmm....yes and no. The afc has 2 programable maps as u know. one for low throttle and one for high throttle. now most people who are running the hack are using the same for both maps and have them set at like 1% and 99%. If you tune each map sepratly with a wb02 and set your throttle maps like 71% and 72% (72% tps car goes open loop) you can get pretty good part throttle a/f tune as well! The crappy thing about the safc is of course aggressive stock honda ignition maps so a btm or something is a must IMO.

But the afc has only 16 possible points of adjustment on each map (only 8 at a time) so the tune is pretty limited I think. Hella better than an fmu tho.

[2000impreza]

my turbo is not a junkyard setup. ghetto... no. i aready have a air/fuel computer. its completly useless with a turbo. if the map sensor reads into positive manifold pressure it will cut the injectors. so i have to put some sort of voltage clamp on it. the front o2 is also a 0-5v wide band sensor. air/fuel is depended on the wideband sensor mostly(closed loop). the only time the ecu maps fuel according to the airflow sensor is 80%+ throttle(open loop). with that siad there is no way i can't run larger injectors with just a afc because the ecu will just ignore the settings.

the extra injectors with controller actually is exactly what i was thinking of using. one injector in each intake runner so i would be running 8 injectors in all. controlled by a SDS unit. http://www.sdsefi.com/eic.html
this unit is isn't exactly cheap..... i also don't really want to hack up the intake manifold.

the reason i asked about rrfpr is because i want to know if anyone has any success with it...

so what everyone is trying to say is rrfpr = bad idea?

[LUDELVR]

Originally posted by Toma
.

My suggestion for a ghetto set-up would be one or 2 extra injectors activated by a simple hobbs switch. Soooo, get one extra injector to come on at 1 psi boost, then the other at 5 psi boost (as an example).

Hobbs switches are around $30 each, and extra injectors are next to free.....you just need to run fuel to them. Some people even use nitrous fuel soelnoids and fogger nozzles to add the additional fuel.

Tune the whole ghetto set-up on a dyno with a wide band, and you should be Ok..... I have seen a hodgepodge of 4 hobbs switches and various size injectors deliver a flat AF ratio.....impressive.

Toma

F-max uses a similar set up. It uses 2 extra injectors plumbed into the intake manifold right before the T.B. and is controlled by an ERL's system. I personally have never worked with one so I don't know all it's ins and outs, but from what I've read, people don't like it a whole hell of a lot! I've seen people actually ditch out and go for an FMU setup!! haha. But for the people with cash, of course they move to a standalone setup. One other problem that I've read about are people running very rich in the cylinders closest to the T.B. but I'm not sure how true this is. All in all, I've seen both setups work reliably and well, but for the most part, I agree, an FMU is for sure low on the list in terms of fuel management...other than not having anything!! haha

As for the fuel pump, that's why it's madatory to have an inline cuz the stock one can actually stop flowing when fuel pressures get too high. On the other hand, I've seen charts of stock fuel pumps running nice hp figures but using a standalone, so really, it's all about what you choose and how you choose to use it.

[Hollywood]

Originally posted by 2000impreza
my turbo is not a junkyard setup. ghetto... no.

No worries. Generally people who use RRFPR usually have a junkyard turbo ie: SVO, Tunderbird T3's etc... So I was not pointing the statement directly at your setup, did not mean for it to sound like that. I have a few friends doing the junkyard turbo setup, what I said above about blowing engines is what I tell them.

[infamous]

wow...can someone please tell me WHAT THE HELL YOU GUYS ARE TALKING ABOUT??? i have no clue what fmu's and rrfpr's are...when i first saw the title, i thought that 2000impreza was drunk....:dunno: :confused: :rolleyes:

[Hollywood]

Originally posted by infamous
wow...can someone please tell me WHAT THE HELL YOU GUYS ARE TALKING ABOUT??? i have no clue what fmu's and rrfpr's are...when i first saw the title, i thought that 2000impreza was drunk....:dunno: :confused: :rolleyes:

RRFPR= Rising rate fuel pressure regulator, comes with static ratio setups; so like for every 1 PSI of boost you get say 3 more PSI of fuel. You can get them with different ratio setups.

[2000impreza]

Originally posted by Hollywood (2)


No worries. Generally people who use RRFPR usually have a junkyard turbo ie: SVO, Tunderbird T3's etc... So I was not pointing the statement directly at your setup, did not mean for it to sound like that. I have a few friends doing the junkyard turbo setup, what I said above about blowing engines is what I tell them.

no worries. just wondering but any of your friends have any luck with running a rrfpr?

reason i'm asking about a rrfpr is someone told me a higher flowing fuel pump and a vortec fmu with ajustable discs would run fairly reliable if i keep the boost low.... :dunno:

[90_Shelby]

I agree with Toma, rising rate isn't the best but it does get the job done . I had no problems with fuel supply as I had a big pump. But I experienced problems of being to rich at full boost and high rpm and lean down low on boost rise or peak torque. I couldn't get rid of this without the car being a complete dog in the top end. But overall my FMU setup worked pretty decent, if you go with an FMU get a good one like Cartech and I haven't seen much sucess with the Vortech ones unless you know exactly which disc to start with. Extra injectors work decent but are best controlled electronically although I have also seen sucess with Hobbs switches. I have also found that AFC's just don't seem to get it right either but are not bad with small amounts of boost.

[tulit]

Roland,

I have the CARTEC RRFPR with my turbo. I think its more than safe to run a few PSI as long as you dont get stupid with it. Id never run more than 5PSI with it though (at least on the 00RS motor).

For the cost of the SDS extra injector controller, finding someone who will tap your intake manifold, etc, you might as well spend a few extra dollars and get the LINK. Because with the SDS, your still running ghetto. They have a plug in version now for the RS if you didn't know. This is what I plan on doing when I get back. They run about $1200 US.


Some people have luck with the RRFPR, some people don't... I think those who don't though are usually the ones doing things they shouldnt be or are just pushing it a little too far...

[turboMiata]

Over the last 5 years, I've seen more than 8 miatas in calgary begin their FI journey using an FMU or "equivalent" setup. Here's the lowdown on a few I know intimately (not mine):

90 Miata, Jackson Racing Sebring SC FPR
---> Spark plugs keep turning white. Plenty of knock at high end. Gave up after fucking with it for 8 years and bought a LINK standalone ECU. Happy ever since.

90 Miata, Jackson Racing Sebring SC FPR
---> Engine keeps running *RICH*!! Blew the crap out of two engines in 1 year. Autopsy showed abnormal carbon buildup on valves. 2nd engine sitting on the floor of a friend's place. 5 bux takes it but you have to find all the pieces.

92 Miata, Autorotor SC FPR
---> Couldn't idle properly because it was too rich. Gave up and got a LINK. Didn't like the power, gave up and got a turbo :thumbsup:

90 Miata, BEGI Stage III turbo FPR
---> Fucked with it for 6 years. Couldn't tune the fuel right through the rev range. Gave up and got a LINK.


I still think an FMU is a viable choice for budget concious LOW BOOST setups. Anything more than that, you have to start thinking about something better. Try it out for yourself, but be careful and always listen for pings.

[2000impreza]

tulit-your putting on your ludespeed stage 3? cool cool. hehe. i've been looking at the plug and play link 2 for awhile. $1450US http://www.carmodifications.com . doesn't seem too bad of a deal but you still need injectors on top of that. RC just released injectors that fit into the MY00+ 2.5 manifolds but it requires you to cut the harness. with the injectors you probably want new fuel rails too. haha. its a never ending list. i'm probably going to run the boost very low and use a fmu. haha. i'm too poor to afford a link 2, injectors, and fuel rails.

doesn't seem like the miata guys have much luck with the FMU. i don't know anyone local impreza guys thats tried using one... i hope i don't blow anything in the process.

[Hollywood]

Originally posted by 2000impreza
tulit-your putting on your ludespeed stage 3? cool cool. hehe. i've been looking at the plug and play link 2 for awhile. $1450US http://www.carmodifications.com . doesn't seem too bad of a deal but you still need injectors on top of that. RC just released injectors that fit into the MY00+ 2.5 manifolds but it requires you to cut the harness. with the injectors you probably want new fuel rails too. haha. its a never ending list. i'm probably going to run the boost very low and use a fmu. haha. i'm too poor to afford a link 2, injectors, and fuel rails.

doesn't seem like the miata guys have much luck with the FMU. i don't know anyone local impreza guys thats tried using one... i hope i don't blow anything in the process.

Skip the RC's if you can.

[Dirty_SOHC]

Originally posted by Hollywood (2)


Skip the RC's if you can.

Why. Mine were flow tested at 445 average flow and they are rated at 440

[tulit]

roland i had everything in but the oil pan but had to take it back out again because i didnt have enough time to finish it before i moved to japan. i will finish it once and for all when i get back though ;) i have a few extra things i picked up here which should make it more interesting. but anyways, lets race. hehe ;)

[Hollywood]

Originally posted by Captain_Dirty


Why. Mine were flow tested at 445 average flow and they are rated at 440

They have poor quality issues. The flow rates are not consistant. 550's one flow tested at 600+, but in the same batch of four, 1 flowed under 550. Especially avoid the rebuilt to larger capacity ones.

Why were yours flow tested in the begining?

[2000impreza]

tulit are you going to wait till you get the link 2 or run the cartech? i really don't know if i should run a rrfpr for fuel... a little paranoid about blowing something up.

race eh? i don't think my setup is enough to beat your ludespeed stage 3. haha. but who knows.

[Dirty_SOHC]

Originally posted by Hollywood (2)


They have poor quality issues. The flow rates are not consistant. 550's one flow tested at 600+, but in the same batch of four, 1 flowed under 550. Especially avoid the rebuilt to larger capacity ones.

Why were yours flow tested in the begining?

I requested them to check them before they shipped them.
they tested ok
440
440
445
439

[tulit]

I will most likely start with the Cartec. No more than 3 or 4 PSI though! (I keep telling myself that, but I have the feeling I will decide to "Try" something higher ;) )

Just to make sure the mechanicals are ok before I dive into learning to tune a LINK.

[tulit]

And if your paranoid, you shouldn't be.

Just do what I did. ACCEPT the fact that you WILL blow your motor. If you cant accept that, dont go turbo!

[Hollywood]

Originally posted by tulit
And if your paranoid, you shouldn't be.

Just do what I did. ACCEPT the fact that you WILL blow your motor. If you cant accept that, dont go turbo!

Yup I agree.

It's hard not to be paranoid though.

2000impreza Greddy emanage might be an option for you, it's pretty reasonable, does not brake the bank. Plus it's flexable. I have checked out the software, it seems good to me. Only thing is you start from scratch tuning it.

[2000impreza]

i know i'm going to blow a engine sooner or later.... i just want to make last as long as possible. after all everyone thats put a turbo on one of these cars has blown a engine right?

hollywood-i've actually looked into the greddy e-manage. this unit is not a true standalone ecu. its more like a super piggy back. if i run the unit i will need the optional ignition/injector harness, airflow sensor, and software. that will probably bump the cost up there with some of the cheap standalone ecu's. since it works with the stock ecu it shouldn't be that hard to tune. do you have hook-ups to get this unit? if so let me know.

[Toma]

So what about a stand alone unit? How much are you willing to spend?

There are several systems whos software I am evaluating that you can get for $1000 to $1400. If you are talking fuel only, there are some even cheaper models.

There is one fully decked out model that has ignition output to directly fire coil packs (so you don't need an MSD or anything else), has built in wide band, built in MAP, fully lap top programmable, can handle low or high impedence injectors, offers 11 minutes of data logging, and can be had for somewhere around $2000.

All prices are Canadian of course....

[Toma]

If you are into a little soldering and assembly, there is a DIY alternative called "megasquirts" that is a fuel only computer....

http://www.bgsoflex.com/megasquirt.html When they have a group purchase, the whole system is somewhere about $150us.

Toma

[boost=drug]

With the recent introduction of so many quality "stand alone" engine management systems designed for specific vehicle applications, prices have become quite competitive making them a worth while investment consideration. In the case of your Impreza, I have to agree with Tulit on this one. The link-system is an excellent unit for the money with good tech support. Each "ghetto" set-up has its compromises. By the time you factor in actual costs and a high likely hood of blowing at least one engine (or engine component) you could probably buy the right part the first time. Balance the costs:

quality fmu......$300
MSD BTM .........$350
quality in-line fuel pump........$250-400
time spent installing extra components ...you figure it out
extra fuel line, etc........say $100

or

Link system (Impreza's and Miata's)......$1200-1600 can
Hondata (Honda/Acura) $750 without adj rev limits.......$750
w/ adj rev limits...........................................................$1050

Toma also mentioned some other units that I am sure work great. He was also right on the money about fuel pump output vs fuel pressure increase. Its been proven that a stock Honda Civic fuel pump can deliver enough fuel to sustain nearly 400hp @ 42psi. You raise the pressure to 90psi and the output is cut in half!

I can understand that most of us can't afford to go out and spend $1500 on an engine management system today but who says you have to buy it today. Instead of piecing your system together over the next several months/weeks/whatever, start a savings account and buy the right part for the job in several months/weeks/whatever. IMO you will be much happier in the long run. I have seen to many customers try to "save" money only to eventually spend more and have a HELLUVA lot more down time.

[boost=drug]

and oh yeah, if someone really wants to go ghetto anyways, I have a Camden electronic additional injector controller w/harness for $150:tongue:

[turboMiata]

Also remember that some of the ECUs including LINK come with a knock sensor and electronic boost controller. You may not need this at first, but the LINK can also do datalogging.

Add all these up:

Knock Sensor (timing retard on ping):200-300bux?
Electronic Boost Control:200-300bux (approx)
Datalogging:???????

All of a sudden, the standalone ECU options look like a bargain.

[Maxt]

I guess since I have a stand alone EFI setup in my car I should add my .02 worth..
First, its not a cure all for a shitty motor, shitty tune up job, shitty car, or shitty mechanic..
While my car runs better than it ever did, my car was also no where near stock running with the stock ecu.
I did run higher than stock boost with a first gen s-afc which is not engine load sensitive or rpm range sensitive, the newer s-afc is and makes it a good device for the bulk of most efi cars running a) more boost or b) larger injectors.
Where I ran into the wall was not being able to dial in the timing, and with the rest of the mods, idle control was not tunable, plus I really wanted rid of my airflow meter as well. The other factors were I am now running 1600cc secondary injectors instead of 550's with the s-afc only being good for + or - minus 50%, with a turbo twice the size the stock maps would not follow the boost curve of the new turbo.
It depends on how far you want to go, with a factory turbo car on a stock turbo, s-afc is ok, e-manage is better, factory turbo car with large turbo, fmic kit, larger or more injectors, stand alone is the way to go, but be forwarned, coming up with your fuel maps and timing maps needs alot of knowledge about engines in general and is not in the realm of most "dabblers", if you have no idea of how ignition timing should change in reguards to cruise idle and boost, stay far far away from stand alones, unless you like buying motors..
On the subject of fuel pressure regulators..
I use an RFPR in my car, basically to make sure the flow rate of my injectors stays the same across the manifold pressure spectrum, injectors are sized at a given pressure drop, usually 3 bar or 45 psi,so the rising fuel pressure is used to maintain the 45 psi across the injector, 0 manifold pressure = 45 psi fuel pressure, 1 psi=46 psi, 2psi=47 psi, etc etc..
But like Toma mentioned, you have watch the capabiltiy of the pump to flow at the specific fuel pressure. if your injectors will flow 50 lb/s min at 40 psi, and your fuel pump will do that, then you see that increasing fuel pressure to 50 psi gives your injector a rating of 58 lbs/min and that will solve your leanness, all is well till you find out your fuel pump will only flow 52 lbs at 50 psi.
Rising rate fuel pressure regs, RRFPR's take alot of time to setup and generally work better with blowers than turbo's for the very reason that fuel ing a blower is alot more linear than that of a turbo. The cartech FMU is generally considered to me more tuneable than the vortech FMu's, some FPR's are only active at boost conditions, relying on the stock upstream Fprs' to control off boost fueling.
I prefer to keep tuning more linear via straight 1:1 Rfpr, than 1:2 and other RRFPR which makes the maps somewhat jagged and the fueling much more inconsistent, but there is more than one way to skin a cat.
Max

[Hollywood]

Originally posted by Maxt
I guess since I have a stand alone EFI setup in my car I should add my .02 worth..
First, its not a cure all for a shitty motor, shitty tune up job, shitty car, or shitty mechanic..
While my car runs better than it ever did, my car was also no where near stock running with the stock ecu.
I did run higher than stock boost with a first gen s-afc which is not engine load sensitive or rpm range sensitive, the newer s-afc is and makes it a good device for the bulk of most efi cars running a) more boost or b) larger injectors.
Where I ran into the wall was not being able to dial in the timing, and with the rest of the mods, idle control was not tunable, plus I really wanted rid of my airflow meter as well. The other factors were I am now running 1600cc secondary injectors instead of 550's with the s-afc only being good for + or - minus 50%, with a turbo twice the size the stock maps would not follow the boost curve of the new turbo.
It depends on how far you want to go, with a factory turbo car on a stock turbo, s-afc is ok, e-manage is better, factory turbo car with large turbo, fmic kit, larger or more injectors, stand alone is the way to go, but be forwarned, coming up with your fuel maps and timing maps needs alot of knowledge about engines in general and is not in the realm of most "dabblers", if you have no idea of how ignition timing should change in reguards to cruise idle and boost, stay far far away from stand alones, unless you like buying motors..
On the subject of fuel pressure regulators..
I use an RFPR in my car, basically to make sure the flow rate of my injectors stays the same across the manifold pressure spectrum, injectors are sized at a given pressure drop, usually 3 bar or 45 psi,so the rising fuel pressure is used to maintain the 45 psi across the injector, 0 manifold pressure = 45 psi fuel pressure, 1 psi=46 psi, 2psi=47 psi, etc etc..
But like Toma mentioned, you have watch the capabiltiy of the pump to flow at the specific fuel pressure. if your injectors will flow 50 lb/s min at 40 psi, and your fuel pump will do that, then you see that increasing fuel pressure to 50 psi gives your injector a rating of 58 lbs/min and that will solve your leanness, all is well till you find out your fuel pump will only flow 52 lbs at 50 psi.
Rising rate fuel pressure regs, RRFPR's take alot of time to setup and generally work better with blowers than turbo's for the very reason that fuel ing a blower is alot more linear than that of a turbo. The cartech FMU is generally considered to me more tuneable than the vortech FMu's, some FPR's are only active at boost conditions, relying on the stock upstream Fprs' to control off boost fueling.
I prefer to keep tuning more linear via straight 1:1 Rfpr, than 1:2 and other RRFPR which makes the maps somewhat jagged and the fueling much more inconsistent, but there is more than one way to skin a cat.
Max

Are your fingers sore now? :nut: Nice post, good info. I told 2000impreza to ask Reg to see if Reg can do a ROM tune on his ECU.

Max PM me your phone number I lost it. I have to ask you something.

[2000impreza]

thanks for the opinions toma, hollywood, boost=drug, turbomiata, maxt, and everyone else that replied. i think i'm going to wait until i can afford some sort of real engine management before i go turbo.

[turboMiata]

Originally posted by 2000impreza
thanks for the opinions toma, hollywood, boost=drug, turbomiata, maxt, and everyone else that replied. i think i'm going to wait until i can afford some sort of real engine management before i go turbo.

That's a very smart move! :thumbsup:

[90_Shelby]

Does anyone know if LINK will be at SEMA?