View Full Version : Track days voiding BMW warranties?
rage2
11-13-2002, 12:12 PM
http://www.pistonheads.com/trackdays/index.asp?storyId=5790
Kinda stupid decision on BMW's part IMO.
Obviously BMW doesn't believe in the quality of thier vehicles
infamous
11-13-2002, 12:17 PM
yeah that was a really stupid decision on BMW's part. if i am going to go out and spend $75,000 for a new m3, i expect that i should be able to take it to the track. why wouldn't they allow it? are they that scared of the build quality??
speedracer
11-13-2002, 12:38 PM
That makes sense. I don't understand him argument - take it out to the track. Car is damaged from the track useage and he expects warranty to cover the damage?
Where can I sign up?
However I do see the gray in Track day - Is it a driver improvment course or race....I would class it as a race the way I see it.
I have a clause when I purchase my vehical that I would not be racing the car. If I do the manufacturer has no liabilities and all warranties void. However, competition and driving courses (solo 2) are allowed.
infamous
11-13-2002, 12:39 PM
what do you drive?? and if you spend 75k on a new bmw m3, don't you expect it to stand up when you drive it hard???/
RickDaTuner
11-13-2002, 12:47 PM
I Though BMW dealers have there own thing were you go and learn the basics of track driving? noe there prohibiting it ?
damn as much as i love that car, ill wont even think of getting one with that line of though
who would want to any way when the dealer could just screw you over and say that any damge could be caused by track use
:thumbsdow :thumbsdow :thumbsdow :thumbsdow :thumbsdow :thumbsdow
4wheeldrift
11-13-2002, 03:22 PM
Ultimate driving machine :thumbsdow whatever
buh_buh
11-13-2002, 03:28 PM
does it count as a track day when you go to the BMW driving school?
gpomp
11-13-2002, 04:10 PM
Originally posted by buh_buh
does it count as a track day when you go to the BMW driving school?
I thought BMW provided cars for you...?
4wheeldrift
11-13-2002, 04:14 PM
If its a BMW arrive and drive type event, you are generally using BMW provided vehicles. If you are showing up at a BMW club sponsored event, you are driving yours.
rage2
11-13-2002, 04:40 PM
It's funny how BMW pushes their cars as the ultimate driving machines, yet you're not allowed to push the cars as it's designed for. Unless of course you're a street racer :D.
buh_buh
11-13-2002, 04:41 PM
Originally posted by 4wheeldrift
If its a BMW arrive and drive type event, you are generally using BMW provided vehicles. If you are showing up at a BMW club sponsored event, you are driving yours.
so it voids your warranty when you attend a BMW club sponsored event?:dunno: sounds stupid to me.
It would probably be okay if your car broke during the track events (provided you don't do anything stupid) since it could be bad publicity that it happened on THEIR turf. Unless they made you sign something with microscopic print!
Who knows how that would have turned out though.
The WRX is touted as a rally car in all their commercials. If you damage it and they find out you were competing in a rally, or even an auto-x, I think they would do the same thing. Of course you pay more for BMW, so I guess those people expect more.
Either way, it sucks.
4wheeldrift
11-13-2002, 04:46 PM
Originally posted by buh_buh
so it voids your warranty when you attend a BMW club sponsored event?:dunno: sounds stupid to me. Pretty sweet scam eh? Entice the drivers to join the BMW sponsored BMW clubs, then void their warranties for showing up. Tough to lose with an arrangement like that.
4wheeldrift
11-13-2002, 04:49 PM
Originally posted by szw
It would probably be okay if your car broke during the track events (provided you don't do anything stupid) since it could be bad publicity that it happened on THEIR turf.
Who knows how that would have turned out though.
The WRX is touted as a rally car in all their commercials. If you damage it and they find out you were competing in a rally, or even an auto-x, I think they would do the same thing. Of course you pay more for BMW, so I guess those people expect more.
Either way, it sucks.
The BMW dealer has absolutely no proof that what happened to that vehicle happened at the track day. If the car had shown up on a flatbed with the tranny busted, directly from the track then yes, they might have cause to deny the claim. This situation is a bit different. Most manufacterers have clauses in their warranties stating that any damage during any sort of competition event is not covered by the warranty, but I've never heard of anyone getting their warranty voided unless they are trying to claim damage done during an event of that type happened at another time and the dealer finds out. I've been completely honest with the dealer abotu what I'm doing wtih my subie, and they have never given me any trouble at all.
max_boost
11-13-2002, 05:22 PM
Man, thats BS!
Rage, thats why I don't go to track events!:D
rage2
11-13-2002, 05:25 PM
Originally posted by max_boost
Rage, thats why I don't go to track events!:D
What a waste! :D
///M Power
11-13-2002, 06:16 PM
Dammit BMW, I love their cars, but the organization sucks ass.
buh_buh
11-13-2002, 06:23 PM
Originally posted by 4wheeldrift
Most manufacterers have clauses in their warranties stating that any damage during any sort of competition event is not covered by the warranty
but our track days isn't a "competition event". It is merely a "lapping day", does that count?
///M Power
11-13-2002, 06:26 PM
Originally posted by buh_buh
but our track days isn't a "competition event". It is merely a "lapping day", does that count?
As long as there is nobody clocking the laps it shouldn't void the warranty, for most companies anyways.
DSM Power
11-13-2002, 06:38 PM
So you break something at track day... why would you even tell the dealership?! :dunno:
"So I was driving down Deerfoot and ...." :angel:
rage2
11-13-2002, 06:38 PM
Remember, what I posted may be an isolated incident. The M3's that blew up at the track due to manufacturing defect (and not moneyshift overrevs) are getting motors replace under warranty.
buh_buh
11-13-2002, 06:39 PM
Originally posted by ///M Power
As long as there is nobody clocking the laps it shouldn't void the warranty, for most companies anyways.
then there's no excuse why your not going to the track days Max_Boost!
Redlyne_mr2
11-13-2002, 07:00 PM
do they want to reduce M series sales because stunts like that will do it...aparently bmw wants its customers to lie to them because i sure would if i broke my M on a track
I agree with BMW. If you go to the track it puts undue pressure on everything on your car. So you buy a 75 000 car and you expect that everything you do to it deserves to be fix free. Then you should race it everyday and ask for new brakes and new tires when they wear out prematurely.
infamous
11-13-2002, 07:22 PM
ok...well then why would they make an m3 with 333 hp and 262 ft-lbs of torque for nothing?? to get up to speed faster?? no i don't think so...and because an owner was keeping the streets safe and taking it to the track, he gets dinged with a huge cost...if he was speeding on the streets like that, would bmw cover it?? most likely...so basically bmw is saying if you want to speed, do it on the streets..that way if you break your car we will fix it :thumbsdow which is bullshit
kenny
11-13-2002, 07:28 PM
I hope this is just an isolated case and not actual BMW policy for all of North America. Not having a chance to fully enjoy the car and its capabilities pretty much sucks. There is far too much power on newer sports cars to fully appreciate them on the street :angel: :angel: so why would they invalidate warranty if its taken to the track where its much safer unless they do not stand behind their products?
The dealer where I purchased my car is fully aware of all the track events that I attend and even encourage my participation at track events. I have had no issues with their service department in terms of replacing broken parts on the car. After reading that story I'm really hoping its an isolated case or I'm REALLY glad I didn't buy a 3series BMW !
max_boost
11-13-2002, 07:31 PM
Originally posted by buh_buh
then there's no excuse why your not going to the track days Max_Boost!
Ahhh....I'm just not up for the challenge:rofl:
rage2
11-13-2002, 07:40 PM
Originally posted by Chu
So you buy a 75 000 car and you expect that everything you do to it deserves to be fix free. Then you should race it everyday and ask for new brakes and new tires when they wear out prematurely.
I don't think it's the tires and brakes the guy's worried about (I buy my own replacement brakes and tires). The fact is the clutch/tranny BROKE (not worn out) means there was a manufacturing defect, which should be covered under warranty.
Originally posted by rage2
I don't think it's the tires and brakes the guy's worried about (I buy my own replacement brakes and tires). The fact is the clutch/tranny BROKE (not worn out) means there was a manufacturing defect, which should be covered under warranty.
I agree with you, but you take the risk if you go to the track if they will honour your warrenty. That is why I would never go to the track with my 996 C2. It would be so much fun but I don't think it is worth the risk of an accident or voiding my warrenty
infamous
11-13-2002, 07:51 PM
so you are saying that you would rather take your car to the limits on the street?? if so then :thumbsdow why else would you buy a porsche if not to test it's limits?? you can't tell me that you go the speedlimit absolutely everywhere....because why else would you spend $80,000 or whatever it is on a new porsche if your not going to get any good driving experiences out of it??
oh yeah and wouldn't there be more of a risk of an accident on city streets instead of at the track?? :dunno:
speedracer
11-13-2002, 08:22 PM
The thing is, the word racing is a bad word for insurance and the manufacturer.
That being said a lot of things are labeled as Driver Training / Competition. Kind of a tongue in cheek gray area. It's also very broad as what is labled as racing and what is not.
I'm not saying (BMW) is right but I find this situation funny. Go to a BMW track event where you will be pushing the car hard - brake something as a result of the event and expect BMW to cover the cost. hmmmm
It all depends what BMW rules as racing/competition (they both have a different meaning) in the end.
spyderman
11-13-2002, 10:57 PM
Rage, you're doing a good job of making me have second thoughts. :rofl:
mwmhong
11-13-2002, 11:27 PM
Originally posted by infamous
so you are saying that you would rather take your car to the limits on the street?? if so then :thumbsdow why else would you buy a porsche if not to test it's limits?? you can't tell me that you go the speedlimit absolutely everywhere....because why else would you spend $80,000 or whatever it is on a new porsche if your not going to get any good driving experiences out of it??
oh yeah and wouldn't there be more of a risk of an accident on city streets instead of at the track?? :dunno:
They're not saying they don't want you to do these wonderful things in these wonderful cars, they're just not going to PAY for the repairs of automobiles that are driven HARD.
I think the warranties are there to cover manufacturing defects and normal vehicle wear-and-tear, not full-blown, all out racing where the vehicles limits are pushed to the max.
If I were a car company, I wouldn't want to pay warranty expenses that were incurred because someone wants to drive at the limits.
I'm sure most consumers who DON'T push their cars to the limit wouldn't want to be allocated the cost (through higher purchase prices) of repairing the vehicles of a small niche of consumers who do go out and drive to their vehicles limits.
If you want to drive hard (street or track), go for it, the manufacturers are not stopping you, just don't expect the car manufacturers to pay, it doesn't make much business sense for the costs of a few to be carried by the majority of consumers.
Originally posted by infamous
so you are saying that you would rather take your car to the limits on the street?? if so then :thumbsdow why else would you buy a porsche if not to test it's limits?? you can't tell me that you go the speedlimit absolutely everywhere....because why else would you spend $80,000 or whatever it is on a new porsche if your not going to get any good driving experiences out of it??
oh yeah and wouldn't there be more of a risk of an accident on city streets instead of at the track?? :dunno:
I don't street race. I drive fast of course but I don't weave in and out of traffic. Street race vs. track? Of course the track is safer. Maybe I don't know what I am missing on the track but since I never have went, it doesn't bother me that much.
Tuner1
11-13-2002, 11:47 PM
This is just one bad isolated incident. In my 8 years of BMW ownership I have never heard of BMW NA or Canada not honoring a legit warranty claim because the car was at a drivers school. If it was really being "raced" i.e Club Racing, then of course there is no warranty. The obvious exceptions are tires, rotors, pads, etc. No need to get all worked up, I am sure there are examples of warranty denial for every make and model out there...
Rob
rage2
11-13-2002, 11:49 PM
Originally posted by Chu
I agree with you, but you take the risk if you go to the track if they will honour your warrenty. That is why I would never go to the track with my 996 C2. It would be so much fun but I don't think it is worth the risk of an accident or voiding my warrenty
Accidents are easily avoided. Don't drive over your limits. Listen to your instructor, and slowly build up speed. Don't do stupid things :D. In fact, the only people that spin are the drivers in the advanced groups, because they are the only ones that are getting close to their car's limits.
As for Warranty, Southcenter Porsche hosts trackday for their customers (free track time, several times a year). Nobody's had a problem with Warranty with Porsche cars. Track time isn't just about pushing your car, it's about learning the limits and handling characteristics of your car, and that knowledge can be applied on the street in emergency situations. Every one of our track day events, the organizers have stressed that it is NOT a race. In fact, if you race ppl into corners, you get booted off the track.
Originally posted by spyderman
Rage, you're doing a good job of making me have second thoughts. :rofl:
haha good to know :D.
Originally posted by mwmhong
I think the warranties are there to cover manufacturing defects and normal vehicle wear-and-tear, not full-blown, all out racing where the vehicles limits are pushed to the max.
So what's the point of BMW creating the "M" series cars? "M" cars on the track and owners driving the car at it's limits, that's considered normal vehicle operation. And for most of these owners (unless you're Schumacher), the car's not going to be anywhere near the limits it's designed for.
Originally posted by mwmhong
If you want to drive hard (street or track), go for it, the manufacturers are not stopping you, just don't expect the car manufacturers to pay, it doesn't make much business sense for the costs of a few to be carried by the majority of consumers.
Actually, the point of the article is that only BMW is denying claims on the basis that the car's seen track time. Porsche doesn't do it, MB doesn't do it, which is why BMW owners are getting pissed off.
CRXguy
11-14-2002, 12:00 AM
Originally posted by spyderman
Rage, you're doing a good job of making me have second thoughts. :rofl:
I was gonna bring that up, but you beat me to it.:D
You make good points rage2. You know a lot of cars.:thumbsup:
Kinda off-topic. I have never been to race city let alone the beyond track meets. What kind of avg speed do people have during the track-day? So is there a lot of time/space between each car since it was said "its not a race/free for all"?
buh_buh
11-14-2002, 01:29 AM
Originally posted by szw
So is there a lot of time/space between each car since it was said "its not a race/free for all"?
Well you can pass, just not in corners.
They let u go in intervals of like 10-15 seconds probably.
4wheeldrift
11-14-2002, 07:49 AM
The interval is usually about 15 to 20 seconds. There is passing, only on the straightaways, but just like passing on the streets you have to pass safely. It pays to be courteous and let faster drivers by. If you are racing into the corners, at every lapping day I've been to they'll give you one warning then you are thrown off the track. Yes, speeds are high but as long as no one is driving like they think they're micheal schumacher and going beyond both the limits of the car and their personal limits, as well as following a few basic (and common sense) rules for safety, there's no reason why anyone should need to be afraid of the track.
James
11-14-2002, 08:28 AM
Originally posted by 4wheeldrift
, but just like passing on the streets you have to pass safely.
Whats this about?? :tongue: :rolleyes:
Fluidic
11-14-2002, 09:08 AM
Bogus BS if you ask me... if you own/drive a BMW M3... you should DRIVE IT!
Look at my Jetta for example... one track day later -- and I'm hooked. I drove the CRAP out of my car that day... and it's still running super smooth (no problems)...
Good ole` Volkswagen! :D :D
Cheers!
Peter
rage2
11-14-2002, 10:11 AM
Originally posted by Fluidic Digital
Look at my Jetta for example... one track day later -- and I'm hooked. I drove the CRAP out of my car that day... and it's still running super smooth (no problems)...
Liar! You bitched about brakes! :D
Fluidic
11-14-2002, 10:39 AM
Originally posted by rage2
Liar! You bitched about brakes! :D
hehehe... just following your advice buddy:
I don't think it's the tires and brakes the guy's worried about (I buy my own replacement brakes and tires).....
Brakes are something I expect to "go"; I can still stop can't I! :D LOL
Cheers!
Peter
Yes, speeds are high
So a rough estimate of the average speed?
depends on the car, on the straits, high rollers like kenny hit like 220, the average car hits 170-200, corner 6 is mid 100's
EDIT!
Rage, the Insanely fast "Arrogant Bastard" Hits roughly 240 on low boost!
:rofl:
rage2
11-14-2002, 03:44 PM
My car topped out at 239 on the CSCC track day. That's on pump gas, 12-13psi boost :D.
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