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pyro
09-12-2004, 04:46 PM
which kind of protein do u think is the most effective? thinking about getting some but dont really know what to buy.:dunno:

1badPT
09-12-2004, 06:38 PM
My opinion is that you should provide as much of it in your diet as possible rather than taking supplements - that said, the one supplementary protein I do take is whey powder. If you do go with supplements, don't overdo it - too much protein can give you kidney problems later on.

pyro
09-12-2004, 06:46 PM
how much is to much like i was reading that your supposed to take like 3 drinks a day but i was thinking of just doing it once a day after my workout.

1badPT
09-12-2004, 06:51 PM
It will be different for each supplement - as long as you don't exceed whatever it says on the box you should be fine and one a day certainly won't hurt.

EG STyLeZ
09-12-2004, 06:57 PM
1badPT is right, most of your protein intake should come from real food. supplemental protein should be taken on top of it.

whey protein is the best protein to take after workouts because it is a very fast absorbing type of protein.

davidI
09-12-2004, 07:09 PM
Agreed with everyone else. To prevent kidney problems you just have to drink a lot of water.

Avoid soy protein as it can cause estrogen production and only use casein at night as it is slow absorbing.

pyro
09-12-2004, 08:24 PM
so pretty much if i got any type of protein is should be whey right. thanx for the help

Roaring G60
09-12-2004, 08:34 PM
with protein you should take vitamin B12 as well, as that this is required to break down the protein for use by the body.

Mckenzie
09-12-2004, 08:37 PM
I'm not sure about the source of the kidney problem thing people keep talking about. I have never read a study or heard of pro-athelets or body-builders suffering from kidney problems. Too much of anything is bad obviously. If anyone can point me to an article or source that says protein is bad for you that I will shut up. DavidI is right on track about drinking lots of water. Water should be a large part of your everyday diet, not just during weight lifting and such.

Here is a good article on protein that you should read. Very informative.

http://www.muscleblitz.com/protein_myths.htm

As for protein, whey is the best stuff. There are many types out there....check out the body building forums for more reviews.

1badPT
09-12-2004, 09:12 PM
Originally posted by Mckenzie
I'm not sure about the source of the kidney problem thing people keep talking about...snip
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/2859733.stm
That was found off google in a few seconds. Its well documented.

davidI
09-12-2004, 09:23 PM
Originally posted by 1badPT

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/2859733.stm
That was found off google in a few seconds. Its well documented.

Kidney problems are definately a cause for concern for people on atkins like diets due to protein being processed by the kidney for a source of energy. Fortunately for bodybuilders on a proper diet, our energy is derived from carbohydrates and the kidney does not have to deal with such aggravation. So you're right...but you're wrong as it applies here.

Mckenzie
09-12-2004, 09:30 PM
I have done lots of searching on this subject for my own reasons and have found it only applies to people on the Atkins style diet, and older people who already have kidney problems.

As mentioned, people who are training properly balance out carbs and protein and they don't fall into the same category of people who are trying to lose weight on the low carb diet.

The high protein low carb diet may be bad for kidneys, but when the diet is balanced, I have found no information that shows high protein consumption is bad for your kidneys.

1badPT
09-13-2004, 12:26 AM
Originally posted by davidI


Kidney problems are definately a cause for concern for people on atkins like diets due to protein being processed by the kidney for a source of energy. Fortunately for bodybuilders on a proper diet, our energy is derived from carbohydrates and the kidney does not have to deal with such aggravation. So you're right...but you're wrong as it applies here.
High amounts of protein if you have an undiagnosed kidney problem is a formula for renal failure - the article I linked to just used the atkins diet as an example. Megadosing protein is not good wether its for atkins or bodybuilding. Its not whether you have a current kidney problem because most people won't know if they do.

Take this example - say you have weak kidneys - you won't know this because everything wil function normally but when you megadose protein your kidneys will have to work harder to remove the unused proteins from your bloodstream - that's when you'll know you have a problem and at that point the damage is already done.

Bottom line, just don't overdo it - like anything else :dunno:

davidI
09-13-2004, 12:44 AM
Originally posted by 1badPT

Megadosing protein is not good wether its for atkins or bodybuilding.

Megadosing protein is what bodybuilding is all about. If you don't do it, you won't see gains. I consume 200-300g protein / day when working out and I've never had a problem - neither have any other lifters I talk to.

You are completely right that anything in excess can be bad for you but it's up to an individual to decide what they value.

1badPT
09-13-2004, 12:57 AM
I'm not trying to take away someones choice. If you want to megadose go right ahead... it has no repercussions on anyone else. Bodybuilding is about shocking your muscles and providing enough nutrients in your diet for your body to rebuild your muscles. Taking more protein than your body can use is not a smart thing.

Rockski
09-13-2004, 01:06 AM
^^^ definatly not... the only source of protien i have in my whole diet is powder and even then im only having a shake 2ce a day max... protine shake and KD, best way to live poor...

badseed
09-13-2004, 02:34 AM
0.8 - 1.0 Grams of protein for every Kg of body weight. NO MORE than this is needed. The above is based on average individuals with average activity levels.

Ex. 75kg person = 60-75 grams protein total/per day. (Not just from supplements but TOTAL!!)

Mckenzie
09-13-2004, 07:33 AM
Coles Notes: This article claims 1.76 g/kg of body weight is optimal for weight lifting. Intaking only .86g/kg in a study showed a decreased whole body protein synthesis, which translates to losing muscle, according to the article.


Myth #1 "Athletes don't need extra protein"


I figured we should start this myth destroying article off with the most annoying myth first. Lord, when will this one go away? Now the average reader person is probably thinking "who in the world still believes that ridiculous statement?" The answer is a great deal of people, even well educated medical professionals and scientists who should know better, still believe this to be true. Don't forget, the high carb, low fat, low protein diet recommendations are alive and well with the average nutritionist, doctor, and of course the "don't confuse us with the facts" media following close behind.
For the past half century or so scientists using crude methods and poor study design with sedentary people have held firm to the belief that bodybuilders, strength athletes of various types, runners, and other highly active people did not require any more protein than Mr. Potato Head.....err, I mean the average couch potato. However, In the past few decades researchers using better study designs and methods with real live athletes have come to a different conclusion altogether, a conclusion hard training bodybuilders have known for years. The fact that active people do indeed require far more protein than the RDA to keep from losing hard earned muscle tissue when dieting or increasing muscle tissue during the off season.


In a recent review paper on the subject one of the top researchers in the field (Dr. Peter Lemon) states "...These data suggest that the RDA for those engaged in regular endurance exercise should be about 1.2-1.4 grams of protein/kilogram of body mass (150%-175% of the current RDA) and 1.7 - 1.8 grams of protein/kilogram of body mass per day (212%-225% of the current RDA) for strength exercisers."


Another group of researchers in the field of protein metabolism have come to similar conclusions repeatedly. They found that strength training athletes eating approximately the RDA/RNI for protein showed a decreased whole body protein synthesis (losing muscle jack!) on a protein intake of 0.86 grams per kilogram of bodyweight. They came to an almost identical conclusion as that of Dr. Lemon in recommending at least 1.76g per kilogram of bodyweight per day for strength training athletes for staying in positive nitrogen balance/increases in whole body protein synthesis.


This same group found in later research that endurance athletes also need far more protein than the RDA/RNI and that men catabolize (break down) more protein than women during endurance exercise.


They concluded "In summary, protein requirements for athletes performing strength training are greater than sedentary individuals and are above the current Canadian and US recommended daily protein intake requirements for young healthy males." All I can say to that is, no sh%# Sherlock?!


Now my intention of presenting the above quotes from the current research is not necessarily to convince the average athlete that they need more protein than Joe shmoe couch potato, but rather to bring to the readers attention some of the figures presented by this current research. How does this information relate to the eating habits of the average athlete and the advice that has been found in the lay bodybuilding literature years before this research ever existed? With some variation, the most common advice on protein intakes that could be-and can be- found in the bodybuilding magazines by the various writers, coaches, bodybuilders, etc., is one gram of protein per pound of body weight per day.
So for a 200 pound guy that would be 200 grams of protein per day. No sweat. So how does this advice fair with the above current research findings? Well let's see. Being scientists like to work in kilograms (don't ask me why) we have to do some converting. A kilogram weighs 2.2lbs. So, 200 divided by 2.2 gives us 90.9. Multiply that times 1.8 (the high end of Dr. Lemon's research) and you get 163.6 grams of protein per day. What about the nutritionists, doctors, and others who call(ed) us "protein pushers" all the while recommending the RDA as being adequate for athletes?
Lets see. The current RDA is 0.8 grams of protein per kilogram of bodyweight: 200 divided by 2.2 x 0.8 = 73 grams of protein per day for a 200lb person. So who was closer, the bodybuilders or the arm chair scientists? Well lets see! 200g (what bodybuilders have recommended for a 200lb athlete) - 163g ( the high end of the current research recommendations for a 200lb person) = 37 grams (the difference between what bodybuilders think they should eat and the current research).
How do the RDA pushers fair? Hey, if they get to call us "protein pushers" than we get to call them "RDA pushers!" Anyway, 163g - 73g = (drum role) 90 grams! So it would appear that the bodybuilding community has been a great deal more accurate about the protein needs of strength athletes than the average nutritionist and I don't think this comes as any surprise to any of us. So should the average bodybuilder reduce his protein intake a bit from this data? No, and I will explain why. As with vitamins and other nutrients, you identify what looks to be the precise amount of the compound needed for the effect you want (in this case positive nitrogen balance, increased protein synthesis, etc) and add a margin of safety to account for the biochemical individuality of different people, the fact that there are low grade protein sources the person might be eating, and other variables.
So the current recommendation by the majority of bodybuilders, writers, coaches, and others of one gram per pound of bodyweight does a good job of taking into account the current research and adding a margin of safety. One things for sure, a little too much protein is far less detrimental to the athletes goal(s) of increasing muscle mass than too little protein, and this makes the RDA pushers advice just that much more.... moronic, for lack of a better word.





There are a few other points I think are important to look at when we recommend additional protein in the diet of athletes, especially strength training athletes. In the off season, the strength training athletes needs not only adequate protein but adequate calories. Assuming our friend (the 200lb bodybuilder) wants to eat approximately 3500 calories a day, how is he supposed to split his calories up? Again, this is where the bodybuilding community and the conservative nutritional/medical community are going to have a parting of the ways... again. The conservative types would say "that's an easy one, just tell the bodybuilder he should make up the majority of his calories from carbohydrates."
Now lets assume the bodybuilder does not want to eat so many carbs. Now the high carb issue is an entirely different fight and article, so I am just not going to go into great depth on the topic here. Suffice it to say, anyone who regularly reads articles, books, etc, >from people such as Dan Duchaine, Dr. Mauro Dipasquale, Barry Sears PhD, Udo Erasmus PhD, yours truly, and others know why the high carb diet bites the big one for losing fat and gaining muscle (In fact, there is recent research that suggests that carbohydrate restriction, not calorie restriction per se, is what's responsible for mobilizing fat stores). So for arguments sake and lack of space, let's just assume our 200lb bodybuilder friend does not want to eat a high carb diet for his own reasons, whatever they may be.
What else can he eat? He is only left with fat and protein. If he splits up his diet into say 30% protein, 30 % fat, and 40% carbs, he will be eating 1050 calories as protein (3500x30% = 1050) and 262.5g of protein a day (1050 divided by 4 = 262.5). So what we have is an amount (262.5g) that meets the current research, has an added margin of safety, and an added component for energy/calorie needs of people who don't want to follow a high carb diet, hich is a large percentage of the bodybuilding/strength training community. here are other reasons for a high protein intake such as hormonal effects (i.e. effects on IGF-1, GH, thyroid ), thermic effects, etc., but I think I have made the appropriate point. So is there a time when the bodybuilder might want to go even higher in his percent of calories >from protein than 30%? Sure, when he is dieting.
It is well established that carbs are "protein sparing" and so more protein is required as percent of calories when one reduces calories. Also, dieting is a time that preserving lean mass (muscle) is at a premium. Finally, as calories decrease the quality and quantity of protein in the diet is the most important variable for maintaining muscle tissue (as it applies to nutritional factors), and of course protein is the least likely nutrient to be converted to bodyfat. In my view, the above information bodes well for the high protein diet. If you tell the average RDA pusher you are eating 40% protein while on a diet, they will tell you that 40% is far too much protein. But is it? Say our 200lb friend has reduced his calories to 2000 in attempt to reduce his bodyfat for a competition, summer time at the beach, or what ever. Lets do the math. 40% x 2000 = 800 calories from protein or 200g (800 divided by 4). So as you can see, he is actually eating less protein per day than in the off season but is still in the range of the current research with the margin of safety/current bodybuilding recommendations intact.


Bottom line? High protein diets are far better for reducing bodyfat, increasing muscle mass, and helping the hard training bodybuilder achieve his (or her!) goals, and it is obvious that endurance athletes will also benefit from diets higher in protein than the worthless and outdated RDAs.

TrevorK
09-13-2004, 08:28 AM
Originally posted by badseed
0.8 - 1.0 Grams of protein for every Kg of body weight. NO MORE than this is needed. The above is based on average individuals with average activity levels.

Ex. 75kg person = 60-75 grams protein total/per day. (Not just from supplements but TOTAL!!)

Working out (which is the only reason you'll need a protein supplement) means you're no longer the average individual with average activity levels.

So generally speaking, when working out, consume 1g/1lbs of body weight.

pyro
09-13-2004, 09:22 AM
alright thanks for all the reply's it helped alot:thumbsup:

ecstasy_civic
09-13-2004, 03:11 PM
hey all, this is ecstacy civic's g/f. I am currently taking my second year of intense A&P courses, as well as myology, pathology, and other biological based courses as i am trying to become a physio therapist. I just had to get in on this debate. If you read that article it clearly states that only people with kidney problems are at risk. I have to also add that people with kidney problems would also be in trouble if they took an excess amount of many vitamins and essential nutrients.
I do agree,however, that you should try to get as much protein as you can from natural sources, as any supplement does not and will not have the same ionic bonds that natural protein has. This means that it will not be absorbed into your body and used as effectively as natural protein.
Moral of the story is that your body may not absorb all the supplemental protein you intake, leaving it to be excreted out of your body in urine. This is where people with kidney problems face their diffiulty. The urine is filtered through the kidneys before it leaves your body, and a lot of reabsorption takes place there. If there is protein left in the uine that was not absorbed by the stomach or teh intestines (the usual site for protein digestion and absorption) than the kidneys may filter it out. For a healthy kidney, this may not be a problem. But, like mentioned above, if there is a kidney issue (diagnosed or not) you could face some problems.
My sister is an Olympic athlete and requires extra protein in her diet as well. Just make sure you dont over-do it and you'll be fine. If you have healthy kidneys and need the extra protein then go nuts. Just make sure to listen to your body cause it will make it known if things aren't quite right.

davidI
09-13-2004, 04:28 PM
:thumbsup: Mckenzie
:thumbsup: Ecstacy_Civics Gf
:thumbsdow All the other misinformation in this thread.

1badPT
09-13-2004, 05:01 PM
Originally posted by davidI
:thumbsup: Mckenzie
:thumbsup: Ecstacy_Civics Gf
:thumbsdow All the other misinformation in this thread.
EC's gf basically said the same things I said... :dunno:

three.eighteen.
09-14-2004, 10:42 AM
yeah the protein definetly has the ability to mess up your kidneys in excess, just try this, immediately post workout, take more whey protein than you ever have before and describe your shit after...

davidI
09-14-2004, 01:47 PM
Originally posted by three.eighteen.
yeah the protein definetly has the ability to mess up your kidneys in excess, just try this, immediately post workout, take more whey protein than you ever have before and describe your shit after...

it's generally thought that any more than 40-60g in one serving is too much. Should you take 6-8 servings throughout the day and drink a lot of water you should be fine.

pyro
09-15-2004, 02:10 PM
k one more question :D Can u mix whey with pretty much any drink or does it have to be water? what do u usually mix with? thanx

1badPT
09-15-2004, 03:08 PM
I mix it with water - you can mix it with anything, but some things give you better results - milk some people argue is good, others say its no good, juice some say is good because it gives you an insulin spike, others say its no good. You can probably justify mixing it with anything, but water I use because I have filtered water here at work, and I can mix it up here at the office before I leave for the day, get home, and be ready for my workout about an hour after my shake - perfect timing :)

three.eighteen.
09-15-2004, 03:24 PM
ive always mixed supplements with milk, and thussly making them more of a shake and you can accept the semi-sludginess of it...in water i would figure its like floaties

badseed
09-15-2004, 03:46 PM
Originally posted by TrevorK


Working out (which is the only reason you'll need a protein supplement) means you're no longer the average individual with average activity levels.

So generally speaking, when working out, consume 1g/1lbs of body weight.

You know what I know what the fuck I'm talking about cuz I don't learn my shit out of some article in some fucking magazine. I waz taught this shit at school. "Nutrution and weight management" was the name of the course taught by a registered dietician. So if you want to eat a shit load of protein and have the excess stored as fat or shit it out of your ass then by all means listen to every fucking magazine article you read and disregard my post.

davidI
09-15-2004, 04:05 PM
Originally posted by badseed


You know what I know what the fuck I'm talking about cuz I don't learn my shit out of some article in some fucking magazine. I waz taught this shit at school. "Nutrution and weight management" was the name of the course taught by a registered dietician. So if you want to eat a shit load of protein and have the excess stored as fat or shit it out of your ass then by all means listen to every fucking magazine article you read and disregard my post.

Dieticians aren't bodybuilders. :tongue:

Most personal trainers know a ton about being healthy but next to nothing about being big.

badseed
09-16-2004, 01:15 AM
Originally posted by davidI


Dieticians aren't bodybuilders. :tongue:

Most personal trainers know a ton about being healthy but next to nothing about being big.

Oh really. I'd like to know what information you used to develop this [obvious fact]. Just so you know any good personal trainer will have an extensive understanding of every aspect of health and not just how to be healthy. By the way, it doesn't take a bodybuilder to know how to gain mass.

davidI
09-16-2004, 08:22 AM
Originally posted by badseed


Oh really. I'd like to know what information you used to develop this [obvious fact]. Just so you know any good personal trainer will have an extensive understanding of every aspect of health and not just how to be healthy. By the way, it doesn't take a bodybuilder to know how to gain mass.

I put the :tongue: smiley because it was kind of a joke. Reality is, fitness advice needs to be directed towards a persons goals. Yes, a lot of trainers know what bodybuilders need to do to reach their goals but in reality they don't always lead them in the right direction. I have a few friends who are PT's and I asked one of them why they never seem to do 'get big' routines with people. He said liability was an issue. High protein diets aren't necessarily the most healthy of things - tuna=mercury, eggs=cholestorol and on and on and on. I'm not knocking on personal trainers in any way because they do offer great advice to most people. I've yet to see a big or ripped trainer in a regular gym though (there are tons of huge trainers at some of the more hardcore gyms mind you but they're generally bodybuilders who pt to pay their food bills!) I've asked for some tips from pt's at a couple gyms and it seems like they always wanna incorporate the excercise ball. ;)

TrevorK
09-16-2004, 10:13 AM
Originally posted by badseed


You know what I know what the fuck I'm talking about cuz I don't learn my shit out of some article in some fucking magazine. I waz taught this shit at school. "Nutrution and weight management" was the name of the course taught by a registered dietician. So if you want to eat a shit load of protein and have the excess stored as fat or shit it out of your ass then by all means listen to every fucking magazine article you read and disregard my post.

I didn't want to come straight out and say it, but you have absolutely no knowledge on this issue. 1g/KG will not yield results when lifting weights and trying to put on muscle.

Get out of the classroom, drop your Canada food guide, get your skinny ass to the gym and lift some weight before you try to talk on the subject.

TrevorK
09-16-2004, 10:14 AM
Originally posted by badseed
By the way, it doesn't take a bodybuilder to know how to gain mass.

No, but it isn't something the average person knows, as proven by your posts.

davidI
09-16-2004, 01:47 PM
Originally posted by 1badPT
I mix it with water - you can mix it with anything, but some things give you better results - milk some people argue is good, others say its no good, juice some say is good because it gives you an insulin spike, others say its no good. You can probably justify mixing it with anything, but water I use because I have filtered water here at work, and I can mix it up here at the office before I leave for the day, get home, and be ready for my workout about an hour after my shake - perfect timing :)

Great answer. Just to elaborate, Milk is generally used for a later night shake or at a time when you don't want fast absorbtion. The casein slows down the absorbtion rate so if you're drinking a shake before bed or something then mix it with milk.
1badPT hit the rest right on. Some of it depends on the protein you have too. A lot of proteins come with a lot of sugars already mixed in so there is no point of using juice but if it's a pure protein then you might want to.
Water is the way to go for most purposes (even though it doesn't taste as good).

badseed
09-16-2004, 01:58 PM
Originally posted by TrevorK


I didn't want to come straight out and say it, but you have absolutely no knowledge on this issue. 1g/KG will not yield results when lifting weights and trying to put on muscle.

Get out of the classroom, drop your Canada food guide, get your skinny ass to the gym and lift some weight before you try to talk on the subject.

HAHAHAHAH...........alright buddy. I didn't want to go and say it either but your an idiot when it comes to fitness. What knowledge do you posess that exceeds "Muscle Mag" magazine. Oh and by the way if you think I'm skinny think again, cuz I'd bench you and your whole fucking family.

sputnik
09-16-2004, 02:15 PM
Originally posted by pyro
k one more question :D Can u mix whey with pretty much any drink or does it have to be water? what do u usually mix with? thanx

I mix whey with milk and ice since I usually drink it at the end of my workout late in the evenings.

davidI
09-16-2004, 02:18 PM
Originally posted by badseed

HAHAHAHAH...........alright buddy. I didn't want to go and say it either but your an idiot when it comes to fitness. What knowledge do you posess that exceeds "Muscle Mag" magazine. Oh and by the way if you think I'm skinny think again, cuz I'd bench you and your whole fucking family.

You've got the ego and violent demeaner that makes people hate bodybuilders. Trevor was right and you are wrong... 1g/kg is way too little, and if that's all you eat then you either aren't that big or are supplementing with something a lot more unhealthy than protein. :eek:

badseed
09-16-2004, 02:49 PM
I could argue with you all day but I simply don't have the time. And in the end you will still be skinny and I will still dominate you in knowledge and size. So I'm gonna take my [skinny] ass to the gym, then come home and eat a fucking donkey. I'm finished with this thread good luck with the gains, or shall I say big shits of protein. Peace out.

davidI
09-16-2004, 05:59 PM
Originally posted by badseed
I could argue with you all day but I simply don't have the time. And in the end you will still be skinny and I will still dominate you in knowledge and size. So I'm gonna take my [skinny] ass to the gym, then come home and eat a fucking donkey. I'm finished with this thread good luck with the gains, or shall I say big shits of protein. Peace out.

That would have to be a pretty small donkey to not exceed 1g/kg of protein. :rofl:

BloodBaneZXY
09-16-2004, 09:21 PM
lol, this thread is hilarious, good luck getting big with 1g/kg of protein there badseed. If you have any aspirations of getting bigger, listen to DavidI he knows his shit :thumbsup: Anyways, to whomever enquired about shakes, it's best to take em asap after a workout w/ preferably water for faster absorption, and at night with milk because it's a form of casein protein, a slower digesting protein (similar to cottage cheese, which is optimal before bed too).

It's real sad when people rely on like 5-6 scoops of whey a day to get a high protein diet. Just eat eggs (whites only if you wanna steer free from the cholesterol), brown rice, oats, yogurt, tuna, chicken, turkey, cheese ..all excellent sources of protein and it's real easy to get 1g/1lb of protein when you eat healthier. Oh yeah, and milk... 39g of protein in 1 L of milk is a heap load! Ah well, just my 2 cents :clap:

Mr_John
09-16-2004, 10:36 PM
protein gives me the shits

TrevorK
09-17-2004, 09:25 AM
Originally posted by badseed


HAHAHAHAH...........alright buddy. I didn't want to go and say it either but your an idiot when it comes to fitness. What knowledge do you posess that exceeds "Muscle Mag" magazine. Oh and by the way if you think I'm skinny think again, cuz I'd bench you and your whole fucking family.

Bench me and my whole family?

Wow, you really talk big online.

And I know it's not true, since you only get 1g/1kg.

I'm just glad everyone else in this thread sees it too.